So basically, I have to sacrifice my income further just the get a few RP. Sorry, but the ADs get you a lot further than some RP.
Unless changed at a later time, you can get RP items and sell them for refined ADs. I'd say that's an advantage, not a disadvantage. The 16h task that gets you a 500 rAD and an artifact equipment bag, if ironzerg's estimate is correct (let's say 70% white, 30% green, blue one as a bonus), that's currently worth 1600*0.7+9000*0.3=3820 AD on average (and 28k AD when you're lucky). That's over 4000 AD (mostly refined) for a single 16h task.
No doubt the current prices will go down a bit, but not so soon and not so much (if everyone converts his leadership farms for RP, less AD will be made overall, and the value of a single AD will go up, AKA deflation).
One underappreciated fact of the change surely is that characters that are deep into RADs now finally have meaningful tasks from Leadership with the RP boxes.
That's huge.
One fact why dungeoneering is not attractive is that the salvage that drops there is just wasted. Now you can get your 24k through gameplay and make RPs from Leadership. That's a silent buff to DD.
I have a feeling they won't stay that way for long.[/QUOTE
Same here... this goes against everything they have been doing to this date. I am sure they will bind these stones to the account.
I also keep getting this feeling that there is one more punch to the gut coming.... I really think they are going to bind enchants. It would be in name of fighting the bots as this is how they are selling the RP now. Hopefully I am way wrong.
Yep in fact devs have said that 'farming' is frowned on and could get you banned as in the EUL agreement.
Imp portals removed from foundry is one example.
But that was mostly ment to farm for RP ect. not AD's.
Really RP is a sep. thing from AD's so this thread is mixed between 2 differnt things.
Anyway at least we know how its going to be now. They already planned all this out long ago anyway.
Tnx for posting whats diff. anyway
I don't mean farming by botting, I mean running around doing HE's for hours on end. Farming != Botting.
Yes i know what you ment and there not just saying its from bot farming, any form of it is frowned on and could get you in trouble.
How i feel about all of this dosent matter anyway. All in intresting read though but academic at this point.
tnx
I'd like to know your source where a dev said that "farming is frowned upon", as farming is a commonplace facet of many MMORPGs. A dev, mind you, not a Community Moderator, as we are not devs and our opinions are not to be taken as the company's official stance.
As I recall, the only thing said to that effect was that "foundry missions with the apparent intent of being solely farming missions are frowned upon". As to whether a practice is outright disallowed is at the sole and final discretion of Cryptic/PWE.
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Akro posted about it in the foundry forums just b4 portals were removed that lead me to belive that. I would have to dig back there to find his orginal statement. We ask this be clarifiyed more but never was that i know of.
tnx
As I recall, the statement was in reference to foundry "farm missions" (e.g. foundry missions designed solely for farming goods or achievements).
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Akro posted about it in the foundry forums just b4 portals were removed that lead me to belive that. I would have to dig back there to find his orginal statement. We ask this be clarifiyed more but never was that i know of.
tnx
I remember this as well. It was a statement that farming foundries are not allowed. Which contradicted previous statements that farming foundries were fine as long as the mobs could fight back. I remember lots of people asked for clarification in the thread because of that, but we didn't get any iirc.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited February 2015
Just to note that the time increase on Destroy Enemy Camp is not the only change.
Protect Diamond Shipment is increased to 14 hours base time from 12.
Deliver Metals is increased to 10 hours base time from 8. I never liked this one because it uses so many mining claims but it's a standard task.
I didn't notice any other changes. The rare tasks that consume marks of gratitude are unaltered.
If you already had a full roster of heroes, you're not going to feel these changes much. It will take heroes or double adventurers to get in two rounds of camps per day, which had been doable with nothing more than common assets, but was more forgiving if you had green or blue dudes.
If you already only changed out your professions once per day (the more farmers people run, the less likely they are to check them more than once per day, I find), then you're not going to feel it at all.
Players who will be hit hardest are those who were managing to routinely skirt the refining cap with only moderate investment. And frankly, my impression is that the sensible reaction for anyone in that position is to increase your number of farmer characters and maintain them less often. Twice the number of characters making half the AD per day is ultimately no change, and if you're checking in once per day instead of twice, it's no net change to your time spent once they're established.
Let's be realistic. The top 10% will still be the top 10%. The top 2% will still be the top 2%.
Does this change anything? Yes, it gives us a reason to open up the barrels and crates we get from leadership.
That's about the only change I can see. If the influx of AD goes down, the prices of things will level out at some point (After the folks currently jacking up the prices are done, or caught onto).
If it was ALLOWED, the ZAX market wouldn't be where it was at. But that's another post and a sore subject.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2015
Don't focus so much on the changes to DEC, as the other tasks you can do in levels 21-25.
I'm thinking:
Destroy Enemy Camps = 1600 AD x 3 + 3 Blue chest
Battle Elemental Cultists = 2000 AD x 3 + 3 Enchanted Coffers
Escort Wizard's Seneschal = 500 AD x 3 + 3 Resonance bags (Switch to another Rare task if up)
Or
Protect Magical Goods market = 500 AD x 6 (if you have Man-at Arms to get it under 12hr) + Thaum Bag + Bandit Camp Clue
That's 12,300 AD/Day (or 13,800) compared to about 14,400 from a basic Leadership rotation now (6x1600, 6x400, 6x400). And you might only have to check your alts once a day, compared to twice.
So that's a far cry from "making half the AD" you were...maybe to start, but it's not the start I'm worried about. It's the finish.
To expand on beckys point:
Cost of character slots: 500z/250k per character
Cost of 1 Adventurer: 200k per asset
So you can work on twice the characters and do the same amount of work once per day with flexible timings. Or you can buy multiple adventurers and heroes and do the higher levels twice a day and earn the same amount. Even if you liked the twice a day you could do half in the morning and half later on for exactly the same result. Of course lower timed tasks such as rp bags and 8h xp would be affected, but personally I'd say the lazier way is the way to go and less expensive. On the other hand, to level up more characters, you'd have to be sure you'll continue playing for when they're maxed out which a lot of people seem to be unsure about with mod 6.
For a set of 3 adventurers you can make twice as much when investing that in char slots with ad left over.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Anyway i dident want to get into all of that, just worried its setting the wrong impression that professions farming is fine when it sounds like its not.
As long as you're the one playing all the "farming" toons, and manually taking care of all the profession updates, I don't see how any of it could be against the EULA. If a person enjoys playing Neverwinter's verion of Farmville on the Gateway, there's nothing wrong with that.
Yeah, I think we need to distinguish between a player choosing to spend a chunk of time doing the same thing over and over with a view to collecting x amount of something (this is "good farming" and is allowed afaik) and a player who, for example, creates a foundry mission designed to be too easy to farm, maybe by having melee mobs who can't reach you but who can be attacked with ranged weapons or spells, or a player who finds a loophole or flaw in the game and uses that for gain (this is "bad farming" and is not allowed).
Neither of these are the same as botting where you use some form of automation to farm in any way, be that in-game or on the gateway. Botting is *always* bad and is obviously not allowed. As stated above, farming itself is not inherently bad and features in most MMOs in some way. If you choose to spend all your gaming time doing the same thing over and over then that is fine as long as you are not exploiting a flaw in the game (and as long as it does not drive you crazy!). Likewise, running lots of professions stuff is fine as long as you do not automate it.
But we are getting a bit off topic.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
That's the point. The new and poor are already behind in Mod 5 and they will be even more behind in Mod 6. When the gap between the haves and the have-nots keeps increasing, the economy will be in bad shape.
How many other games can you list where new players are on par with end-game players without any serious investment in playing the game? The only thing that takes time in this game is boons, everything else can be bought with enough money. I have no issues with new players having to actually work to get on par with the long-time players.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
That's 12,300 AD/Day (or 13,800) compared to about 14,400 from a basic Leadership rotation now (6x1600, 6x400, 6x400). And you might only have to check your alts once a day, compared to twice.
I mathed out my basic Leadership income per character per day right now and it comes to 19200AD, assuming I only do common tasks and can't squeeze in another round of Spellplagueds in the evening.
Yes, I suppose it is my version of Farmville, and moving to a once-per-day rotation would be freeing.
I'll have to figure out something so that I don't feel like all my adventurers are wasted, since there's no point to having a speed bonus on a once-a-day rotation.
How many other games can you list where new players are on par with end-game players without any serious investment in playing the game? The only thing that takes time in this game is boons, everything else can be bought with enough money. I have no issues with new players having to actually work to get on par with the long-time players.
Where in game are you going to earn enough ad to level 1 artifact to orange within 3 months without it sounding like a part time job and not a videogame.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I mathed out my basic Leadership income per character per day right now and it comes to 19200AD, assuming I only do common tasks and can't squeeze in another round of Spellplagueds in the evening.
Yes, I suppose it is my version of Farmville, and moving to a once-per-day rotation would be freeing.
I'll have to figure out something so that I don't feel like all my adventurers are wasted, since there's no point to having a speed bonus on a once-a-day rotation.
I have 21 characters with level 20 Leadership, and 4 more halfway through 19. I made the determination that it's actually easier and more profitable to have more characters that I check fewer times per day, then invest in resources and time to check fewer characters more often.
For example, if you buy Heroes or Adventurer's, you can increase your output by 50% or 100%. But you can also double your output by adding more characters, which is far cheaper.
If you had one level 20 Leadership alt open with 8 slots (I say 8 because for the time invested, getting the 9th for 3 level 20 tasks just isn't worth the ROI), you can essentially double the output by using 16 heroes. But even at historically low prices, that would cost you 4-5 million AD. If that meant you went from 12000 RAD to 24000 RAD a day, that's over 400 days to payback.
But for 250,000 AD I can buy 2 more characters, which (given the time to level up Leadership, maybe 60 days) can triple my income from 12,000 to 36,000 a day. I can save time by buying the workers instead of making them (16 x 20,000). Which takes my total cost to about 570k, which takes 24 days (or 84 total if you include the leveling time) to get my ROI. And then in those other 316 days where you're trying to recoup costs, I've earned over 11 million AD.
So even with the changes, the most cost-effective method to maintain income ISN'T buying more blue and purple assets, but to either unlock more slots on existing farming toons, or level more leadership alts.
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Unless changed at a later time, you can get RP items and sell them for refined ADs. I'd say that's an advantage, not a disadvantage. The 16h task that gets you a 500 rAD and an artifact equipment bag, if ironzerg's estimate is correct (let's say 70% white, 30% green, blue one as a bonus), that's currently worth 1600*0.7+9000*0.3=3820 AD on average (and 28k AD when you're lucky). That's over 4000 AD (mostly refined) for a single 16h task.
No doubt the current prices will go down a bit, but not so soon and not so much (if everyone converts his leadership farms for RP, less AD will be made overall, and the value of a single AD will go up, AKA deflation).
That's huge.
One fact why dungeoneering is not attractive is that the salvage that drops there is just wasted. Now you can get your 24k through gameplay and make RPs from Leadership. That's a silent buff to DD.
As of now, all the stones from Leadership are unbound.
I have a feeling they won't stay that way for long.
For me, Leadership looks more interesting with these changes. I'm quite looking forward to some of those new tasks.
As it is I dont farm LEadership anyway, a real boring way to play a game if you ask me.
I don't mean farming by botting, I mean running around doing HE's for hours on end. Farming != Botting.
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I'd like to know your source where a dev said that "farming is frowned upon", as farming is a commonplace facet of many MMORPGs. A dev, mind you, not a Community Moderator, as we are not devs and our opinions are not to be taken as the company's official stance.
As I recall, the only thing said to that effect was that "foundry missions with the apparent intent of being solely farming missions are frowned upon". As to whether a practice is outright disallowed is at the sole and final discretion of Cryptic/PWE.
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As I recall, the statement was in reference to foundry "farm missions" (e.g. foundry missions designed solely for farming goods or achievements).
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I remember this as well. It was a statement that farming foundries are not allowed. Which contradicted previous statements that farming foundries were fine as long as the mobs could fight back. I remember lots of people asked for clarification in the thread because of that, but we didn't get any iirc.
Protect Diamond Shipment is increased to 14 hours base time from 12.
Deliver Metals is increased to 10 hours base time from 8. I never liked this one because it uses so many mining claims but it's a standard task.
I didn't notice any other changes. The rare tasks that consume marks of gratitude are unaltered.
If you already had a full roster of heroes, you're not going to feel these changes much. It will take heroes or double adventurers to get in two rounds of camps per day, which had been doable with nothing more than common assets, but was more forgiving if you had green or blue dudes.
If you already only changed out your professions once per day (the more farmers people run, the less likely they are to check them more than once per day, I find), then you're not going to feel it at all.
Players who will be hit hardest are those who were managing to routinely skirt the refining cap with only moderate investment. And frankly, my impression is that the sensible reaction for anyone in that position is to increase your number of farmer characters and maintain them less often. Twice the number of characters making half the AD per day is ultimately no change, and if you're checking in once per day instead of twice, it's no net change to your time spent once they're established.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Does this change anything? Yes, it gives us a reason to open up the barrels and crates we get from leadership.
That's about the only change I can see. If the influx of AD goes down, the prices of things will level out at some point (After the folks currently jacking up the prices are done, or caught onto).
If it was ALLOWED, the ZAX market wouldn't be where it was at. But that's another post and a sore subject.
I'm thinking:
Destroy Enemy Camps = 1600 AD x 3 + 3 Blue chest
Battle Elemental Cultists = 2000 AD x 3 + 3 Enchanted Coffers
Escort Wizard's Seneschal = 500 AD x 3 + 3 Resonance bags (Switch to another Rare task if up)
Or
Protect Magical Goods market = 500 AD x 6 (if you have Man-at Arms to get it under 12hr) + Thaum Bag + Bandit Camp Clue
That's 12,300 AD/Day (or 13,800) compared to about 14,400 from a basic Leadership rotation now (6x1600, 6x400, 6x400). And you might only have to check your alts once a day, compared to twice.
So that's a far cry from "making half the AD" you were...maybe to start, but it's not the start I'm worried about. It's the finish.
Cost of character slots: 500z/250k per character
Cost of 1 Adventurer: 200k per asset
So you can work on twice the characters and do the same amount of work once per day with flexible timings. Or you can buy multiple adventurers and heroes and do the higher levels twice a day and earn the same amount. Even if you liked the twice a day you could do half in the morning and half later on for exactly the same result. Of course lower timed tasks such as rp bags and 8h xp would be affected, but personally I'd say the lazier way is the way to go and less expensive. On the other hand, to level up more characters, you'd have to be sure you'll continue playing for when they're maxed out which a lot of people seem to be unsure about with mod 6.
For a set of 3 adventurers you can make twice as much when investing that in char slots with ad left over.
As long as you're the one playing all the "farming" toons, and manually taking care of all the profession updates, I don't see how any of it could be against the EULA. If a person enjoys playing Neverwinter's verion of Farmville on the Gateway, there's nothing wrong with that.
Neither of these are the same as botting where you use some form of automation to farm in any way, be that in-game or on the gateway. Botting is *always* bad and is obviously not allowed. As stated above, farming itself is not inherently bad and features in most MMOs in some way. If you choose to spend all your gaming time doing the same thing over and over then that is fine as long as you are not exploiting a flaw in the game (and as long as it does not drive you crazy!). Likewise, running lots of professions stuff is fine as long as you do not automate it.
But we are getting a bit off topic.
How many other games can you list where new players are on par with end-game players without any serious investment in playing the game? The only thing that takes time in this game is boons, everything else can be bought with enough money. I have no issues with new players having to actually work to get on par with the long-time players.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I mathed out my basic Leadership income per character per day right now and it comes to 19200AD, assuming I only do common tasks and can't squeeze in another round of Spellplagueds in the evening.
Yes, I suppose it is my version of Farmville, and moving to a once-per-day rotation would be freeing.
I'll have to figure out something so that I don't feel like all my adventurers are wasted, since there's no point to having a speed bonus on a once-a-day rotation.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Where in game are you going to earn enough ad to level 1 artifact to orange within 3 months without it sounding like a part time job and not a videogame.
I have 21 characters with level 20 Leadership, and 4 more halfway through 19. I made the determination that it's actually easier and more profitable to have more characters that I check fewer times per day, then invest in resources and time to check fewer characters more often.
For example, if you buy Heroes or Adventurer's, you can increase your output by 50% or 100%. But you can also double your output by adding more characters, which is far cheaper.
If you had one level 20 Leadership alt open with 8 slots (I say 8 because for the time invested, getting the 9th for 3 level 20 tasks just isn't worth the ROI), you can essentially double the output by using 16 heroes. But even at historically low prices, that would cost you 4-5 million AD. If that meant you went from 12000 RAD to 24000 RAD a day, that's over 400 days to payback.
But for 250,000 AD I can buy 2 more characters, which (given the time to level up Leadership, maybe 60 days) can triple my income from 12,000 to 36,000 a day. I can save time by buying the workers instead of making them (16 x 20,000). Which takes my total cost to about 570k, which takes 24 days (or 84 total if you include the leveling time) to get my ROI. And then in those other 316 days where you're trying to recoup costs, I've earned over 11 million AD.
So even with the changes, the most cost-effective method to maintain income ISN'T buying more blue and purple assets, but to either unlock more slots on existing farming toons, or level more leadership alts.