Meh, why all TR balance threads are 90% about pvp even if OP clearly starts a discussion about PvE balance... On topic - bugged SoD could deal a lot more damage in a dungeon than a CW. I guess it was ok for almost 4 mods that cw did 2-5x more damage than TR while controlling mobs, but the other way around - nope, because of "pvp" /sarcasm. The biggest issue I had with SoD (talking from exec TR perspective) was fact that after like 4-5 hours of "OH GOD so thats how CWS felt like when they compared themselves to others" it became kinda boring that fights last 10s and everything was dying way too fast. Apparently they fixed a bug with another bug - on preview SoD doesnt work almost at all (just 1st hit after stealth counts...). I wish they'd make another maintanance in 2 days to fix that too - but I guess this bug will last for months Too bad that after 2 days of glory TR will go back to being underwhelming - after preview experience I feel like he's still weak, just not as weak as he was before mod 5. I hope Im wrong, though.
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
TR attacks single target only. CW attacks many targets at once.
Do you see the problem in your comparison?
Also CW wear clothes, you wear armor, CWs move much slower, can't hide, take argo and ALL mobs set them as primary target ... you hide and strike from behind, then hide again.
1) Path of Blade is an AoE. We have AoEs.
2) We all wear clothes, or we'd be naked.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Well, HR and CW classes have dominate PvP for a long time... yet, i do not see the players of those classes asking for "balance" or "nerf"... in fact, what we all see is that most of these players just say that their respective class is fine...
No one who has ever played HR in mod 4 has stated the class was balanced unless they were trolling. Obviously HRs and CWs aren't gonna make threads saying 'please nerf me,' that's not logical; however I haven't seen a single thread since Mod 5 release asking for HRs to get buffed, or complaining about how weak they are right now. Literally every other thread last mod was asking for HR nerf, HRs never disagreed (albeit some disagreed on what required nerfs, HRs all knew they needed nerfs).
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Ok, i just read 7 pages of mostly whining and nonsense XD
I do understand the sentiment, however.
I have always thought what happened to the TR class was sad and unfair. If any class had a reason to cry, it was the TRs. I think most of the other classes who whined and complained where whiners trying to make up for the fact that they haven't learned to play yet.
Overall this patch has done some nice things, namely:
a) DC can occasionally kill things at some sort of reasonable rate
b) Instigator path is now viable
c) TR is now a reasonable PvE option.
Before mod 5, TR was 3 times the work for 1/3 of the result. There was no point because CW was just plain better in every way. Back in Mod 1/Mod 2, if you wanted to make AD or get a group - roll a cw.
I have ALWAYS thought this was unfair. Even though I main a CW, I truly want to be able to take all classes, all paragons and all trees and have them close to balanced so people can play the way they like. Taking a TR should not be taking a mascot that scratches things with his tiny little daggers.
Luckily, Mod 5 TR is pretty good! the damage boost is nice, the feats are good, my playstyle isnt' wrecked, i get stealth back faster, i get more dodge rolls, etc... Overall it is a MASSIVE improvement from where they were. Now I think they are at least close to what they should be.
That said, last night before the fix, I did a ELOL on my TR. 57% of my damage (I won paingiver) was Shadow of Demise. Then when we were fighting lostmauth, 40% of TEAM DAMAGE was Shadow of demise. Yes i agree TR should have best single target DPS, but should 1 TR out damage a DC, HR, SW, and CW, all with pretty good gear? no... that result is also silly.
The feat was obviously bugged, it's fixed. I wanted the bug a while longer so TR could have their OP moment - they deserve it.
However, TR now is much better than TR before. It's a major buff. Also the dragon encounters, the new content, etc... are giving TRs the chance to really shine.
This is like... well... I get TRs were starving children, and I get this banana fudge sunday tastes great and is a huge improvement over the gruel you were eating, but that cherry on top was a little excessive
Side note - TR was my first character, i love mine and think she's awesome. I am glad i can play her without thinking "why didn't i bring my CW" every 5 seconds now.
Well, no ofense, but Piercing Blades just got FIXED (not nerfed) due it were not WAI and the "nerf" (i call it "fix") on WM is LOGIC due GWF-class got THE SAME "NERF" (fix) on Unstoppable Recovery and on its armor set... but from now on, we will laugh with the new Renegade Chill CW tree yet i do not see anyone asking for a nerf on a tree/class which can, basically, soloing CN yet devs will not nerf it due is "THE" class (the head of the developer team is CW-player from the start of the game)...
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pls, non-GWF-players must stop talking about a class that they do not understand or even play...
you are wrong, wild medicine is affected by healing depression AND halved in pvp, so it's 1/4 effective.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pls, non-GWF-players must stop talking about a class that they do not understand or even play...
It's MUCH MUCH improved.
I will readily admit my GWF is my worst class, but when I made her i didn't want to be some cookie cutter copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy and end up getting into bed with Marla singer and shooting myself.
Yes, i know that part too, but the problem came from the first one: WM not being affected by Healin Depresion but i "agree" with you that double nerf "killed" the skill (life steal + Careful + Piercing + regen + WM + Combatant set [the one i use on mine] seems like a good way to heal yourself... but i need to check it, i did not entered PvP with him since i got the grim full set. XD).
WM was always affected by healing depression. HR healing is even worse (heals even more) than mod 4 HR because of all the extra life steal HRs can get now from the artifact gear. Whereas WM was 50-60% of healing in mod 4 from logs, life steal is now about 70% healing with minimal healing from regen/WM. In fact you could probably actually forgo WM completely now in a PvP build because it sucks so much. Assuming you have 45k hp, WM is now (45000 / 15) * (0.05 /4) = 37.5 heals per stack per second (5% hp over 15 seconds at 1/4 effectiveness). You won't really have more than 6-7 stacks at best in PvP. Also combatant's set sucks for a combat HR, at least until Drow sets come out because the red glyphs are a huge percentage of combat's DPS.
Tbh combat is still one of the strongest/top builds in pvp atm and needs to be toned down.
OT: Shadow of Demise was over the top; it's a fix not a nerf.
I will readily admit my GWF is my worst class, but when I made her i didn't want to be some cookie cutter copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy and end up getting into bed with Marla singer and shooting myself.
if you add some nuts to a pile of poo it doesnt make it snickers
instigator is useless, destroyer and intimidation sent is just bad, there is no reason to play gwf in mod5
I have what some would call an 'OP' tr build since mod 5. I have run many dungeon's and i have noticed that i get the same dps as an 'OP' cw. So could somebody explain to me why the SoD is getting nerfed? I think the TR is right where it should be.
you're right i always noticed that cw and sw and hr(combat) are overpowered in pvp 1 hit or 2 and u r dead they forget about rogues in mod 4 completely and now in mod 5 changes happened for all classes and day by day cw getting higher rates changes in most patch note this is unfair completely unfair i want my sod back as it was or give me my old rogue back bcs i was doing great with it
the problem is that even though SoD needed a fix, now it's bugged again, but to the opposite side, it's underpowered.It's supposed to do half the damage you do since you enter stealth and the next 6 secs, and now it's doing only half the damage of ONE of the attacks in that lapse, it's pretty much useless.
They FIXED the feat so that people can actually PvP without getting killed by TR in 1 nanosecond.
Nope. They fixed one bug and introduced a second. The feat is still broken, just in a different way. Don't get too comfortable with how it works right now - it won't last.
Short answer - because forums are dominated by CW players if you haven't noticed. They are very skilled in convincing people that their class needs some serious buffing.
TR should deal the best possible damage against single targets, CW should deal more damage in AoE. So when you clear a dungeon CW should top TR in dmg done but when you fight a boss TR should quickly catch up. When both worlds collide their dps should be comparable cause boss is a huge hp pinata.
That said both classes are broken - TR is dealing crazy damage right now even with lower gearscore so as you couldn't beat CW in dmg before mod 5.
Aside form that jibba jabba the correct answer would be because of TRs Dragon in Heroic Encounters are dying in seconds and SD is doing millions dmg.
Short answer - because forums are dominated by CW players if you haven't noticed. They are very skilled in convincing people that their class needs some serious buffing.
TR should deal the best possible damage against single targets, CW should deal more damage in AoE. So when you clear a dungeon CW should top TR in dmg done but when you fight a boss TR should quickly catch up. When both worlds collide their dps should be comparable cause boss is a huge hp pinata.
That said both classes are broken - TR is dealing crazy damage right now even with lower gearscore so as you couldn't beat CW in dmg before mod 5.
Umm people were complaining about PVP TR vs PVP CW.
Apart from the shadowy demise ticks that instantly kills dragons, I have not seen people complain about PVE TR. I also have not seen any PVE CW complain about being underpowered.
Devs are worst hypocrite in game. They are playing CW and delete every thread to nerf unfair CW. They keep anti TR, ugly nerf requests and delete any other thread against classes they are playing.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Dragon are killed in second mainly because they have 50 players shooting them while they are mainly constructed for 5-10 player. will be the same as old dragon when theire will be less player on them there will be more harder to kill. As long as dragon will be on an open map it will be easy by coming with a big amount of player.
For the TR change on shadows of demise, it not a matter of kikimeter. TR crying like we just take out their head. My, killing alone a boss in 5 second have never been possible before. Try to think 1 second about what chinese farmer can do with that, runing dongeon in 5 min chrono. 200 per day or 1000 etuern. check how economy will ended. Same TR player that actualy crying would have come to cry about economy that new epic would have been ended at 1 AD on the AH or because dev would have reduce the loot ratio to counter that and it would have been impossible to get any loot for a majority of player.
And for kikimeter result. forget it, it less and less represent the efficiency of the group due that one debuf player can massivly increase the group damage and yet getting a poor place on the kikimeter bar. (ex: i'm with a group of 4 player where each do 1000 damage, i have two choice. 1 doing 2000 damage myself or doing 1000 but increasing the group by 40%. in first case the group is doing 6000 total damage and i'm in first place with 1000 more, in the second case every one do 1400 and whole group have a damage of 7000. the second group is more efficient but kikimeter will say that you were less use.
Comments
1) Path of Blade is an AoE. We have AoEs.
2) We all wear clothes, or we'd be naked.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
No one who has ever played HR in mod 4 has stated the class was balanced unless they were trolling. Obviously HRs and CWs aren't gonna make threads saying 'please nerf me,' that's not logical; however I haven't seen a single thread since Mod 5 release asking for HRs to get buffed, or complaining about how weak they are right now. Literally every other thread last mod was asking for HR nerf, HRs never disagreed (albeit some disagreed on what required nerfs, HRs all knew they needed nerfs).
I do understand the sentiment, however.
I have always thought what happened to the TR class was sad and unfair. If any class had a reason to cry, it was the TRs. I think most of the other classes who whined and complained where whiners trying to make up for the fact that they haven't learned to play yet.
Overall this patch has done some nice things, namely:
a) DC can occasionally kill things at some sort of reasonable rate
b) Instigator path is now viable
c) TR is now a reasonable PvE option.
Before mod 5, TR was 3 times the work for 1/3 of the result. There was no point because CW was just plain better in every way. Back in Mod 1/Mod 2, if you wanted to make AD or get a group - roll a cw.
I have ALWAYS thought this was unfair. Even though I main a CW, I truly want to be able to take all classes, all paragons and all trees and have them close to balanced so people can play the way they like. Taking a TR should not be taking a mascot that scratches things with his tiny little daggers.
Luckily, Mod 5 TR is pretty good! the damage boost is nice, the feats are good, my playstyle isnt' wrecked, i get stealth back faster, i get more dodge rolls, etc... Overall it is a MASSIVE improvement from where they were. Now I think they are at least close to what they should be.
That said, last night before the fix, I did a ELOL on my TR. 57% of my damage (I won paingiver) was Shadow of Demise. Then when we were fighting lostmauth, 40% of TEAM DAMAGE was Shadow of demise. Yes i agree TR should have best single target DPS, but should 1 TR out damage a DC, HR, SW, and CW, all with pretty good gear? no... that result is also silly.
The feat was obviously bugged, it's fixed. I wanted the bug a while longer so TR could have their OP moment - they deserve it.
However, TR now is much better than TR before. It's a major buff. Also the dragon encounters, the new content, etc... are giving TRs the chance to really shine.
This is like... well... I get TRs were starving children, and I get this banana fudge sunday tastes great and is a huge improvement over the gruel you were eating, but that cherry on top was a little excessive
Side note - TR was my first character, i love mine and think she's awesome. I am glad i can play her without thinking "why didn't i bring my CW" every 5 seconds now.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
you are wrong, wild medicine is affected by healing depression AND halved in pvp, so it's 1/4 effective.
It's MUCH MUCH improved.
I will readily admit my GWF is my worst class, but when I made her i didn't want to be some cookie cutter copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy and end up getting into bed with Marla singer and shooting myself.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
WM was always affected by healing depression. HR healing is even worse (heals even more) than mod 4 HR because of all the extra life steal HRs can get now from the artifact gear. Whereas WM was 50-60% of healing in mod 4 from logs, life steal is now about 70% healing with minimal healing from regen/WM. In fact you could probably actually forgo WM completely now in a PvP build because it sucks so much. Assuming you have 45k hp, WM is now (45000 / 15) * (0.05 /4) = 37.5 heals per stack per second (5% hp over 15 seconds at 1/4 effectiveness). You won't really have more than 6-7 stacks at best in PvP. Also combatant's set sucks for a combat HR, at least until Drow sets come out because the red glyphs are a huge percentage of combat's DPS.
Tbh combat is still one of the strongest/top builds in pvp atm and needs to be toned down.
OT: Shadow of Demise was over the top; it's a fix not a nerf.
if you add some nuts to a pile of poo it doesnt make it snickers
instigator is useless, destroyer and intimidation sent is just bad, there is no reason to play gwf in mod5
Rogues are still doing better than they were two days ago.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
you're right i always noticed that cw and sw and hr(combat) are overpowered in pvp 1 hit or 2 and u r dead they forget about rogues in mod 4 completely and now in mod 5 changes happened for all classes and day by day cw getting higher rates changes in most patch note this is unfair completely unfair i want my sod back as it was or give me my old rogue back bcs i was doing great with it
I think Shadow of Demise is not working properly atm, otherwise it'd be fine.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
I'd love to be proven wrong though.
actually you are wrong, the feat is not doing what the tool tip says , it is most certainly bugged.
By that logic, 1/3 feats are bugged XD
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aside form that jibba jabba the correct answer would be because of TRs Dragon in Heroic Encounters are dying in seconds and SD is doing millions dmg.
Umm people were complaining about PVP TR vs PVP CW.
Apart from the shadowy demise ticks that instantly kills dragons, I have not seen people complain about PVE TR. I also have not seen any PVE CW complain about being underpowered.
with 20 geared characters all stacking buffs and debuffs on something, everything dies very quickly.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
For the TR change on shadows of demise, it not a matter of kikimeter. TR crying like we just take out their head. My, killing alone a boss in 5 second have never been possible before. Try to think 1 second about what chinese farmer can do with that, runing dongeon in 5 min chrono. 200 per day or 1000 etuern. check how economy will ended. Same TR player that actualy crying would have come to cry about economy that new epic would have been ended at 1 AD on the AH or because dev would have reduce the loot ratio to counter that and it would have been impossible to get any loot for a majority of player.
And for kikimeter result. forget it, it less and less represent the efficiency of the group due that one debuf player can massivly increase the group damage and yet getting a poor place on the kikimeter bar. (ex: i'm with a group of 4 player where each do 1000 damage, i have two choice. 1 doing 2000 damage myself or doing 1000 but increasing the group by 40%. in first case the group is doing 6000 total damage and i'm in first place with 1000 more, in the second case every one do 1400 and whole group have a damage of 7000. the second group is more efficient but kikimeter will say that you were less use.