charkanramonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 51Arc User
edited October 2014
I believe the only way to really take a defensive CW option would create a path focused on illusions. This would have a passive way of deflection (mirror images), ground support that increases dodge chance (ice fog) and temporary invisibility.
If you are really serious about balancing then you should look at these:
Feedback: Control Wizard As the name implies CW should be focusing in AOE crowd control so why is it that this class can dish out so much damage even in single target?
Feedback: Hunter Ranger This class have 3 encounters in range and 3 encounters in melee that the other encounter does not go cooldown when switching stances if you are really serious about balance then when one encounter is used in one stance the other encounter should also have cooldown.
Feedback: Scourge Warlock High damage, debuff, minions, self heal, durable due to % damage in Vitality stats.....one man army
If you are really serious about balancing then you should look at these:
Feedback: Control Wizard As the name implies CW should be focusing in AOE crowd control so why is it that this class can dish out so much damage even in single target?
Because control is boring for everyone. If they remove the damage and keep the control we have now, we would be useless and if they add more control the class becomes boring because that would lead to perma control and thats no fun for anyone.
Because control is boring for everyone. If they remove the damage and keep the control we have now, we would be useless and if they add more control the class becomes boring because that would lead to perma control and thats no fun for anyone.
So fun for you is? IMBALANCE? range, shield, cc lock, multiple blink, aoe and damage what else do you want to add in you class? heal? invisibilty?
You have no idea how poor PVP DCs and TRs are in live server or how overpowered they are on preview server then.
Unless you are talking about PVE in which case, I would reply who cares? PVE is a joke and any 14k gs class with an inferior build built by a 2-year old would complete almost any dungeon
From my understanding, a TR can now kill pretty much everything on the Preview, including, yes, HRs (am talking about BiS level PvPers).
As for CWs, their state is so horribad that even a DC could kill them. I personally stopped bothering to go to preview after getting my 43K HP CW one-shot by Lashing Blade. Had enough of that back in the days. I will probably see what Tiamat looks like though.
Crippling strike: frontline surge and savage advance now in addition slow targets by 15/30/45/60/75% and grant combat advantage for 3/6/9/12/15 seconds.
Instigator vengeance: in addition to bonus damage, taking damage you build determination 30% faster.
Crippling strike: frontline surge and savage advance now in addition slow targets by 15/30/45/60/75% and grant combat advantage for 3/6/9/12/15 seconds.
Instigator vengeance: in addition to bonus damage, taking damage you build determination 30% faster.
m8 this things aren't good, the instigator deals resonable damage in PVP and can dps aproximatly all clases.
problem is his lack of surviability. the paragon seems a little unconfy and unloved , if you examine with other paragons as destroyer / sentinel this paragon lacks someth.
Destroyer paragon has destroyer
sentinel paragon has weapon master
both have a buff on sure strike
instigator indeed has a good t1 and good 2 t2 , but from there on, it seems it lacks someth.
imo they should add someth that gives him more surviability. for example rechargin faster stamina , or they can add steadfastdetermination for the gain of unstoppable like you said or Bravery to give more deflect/stamina. DOT resist, or the old unstopable of 25-50%, but to have the capstone too similar to destroyer it's too much.
btw: mark gives combat advantage already ..
to fix destroyer paragon , it's to give a flat of 20% damage bonus and let it 1 stack / 1% damage bonus.
that way its all fixed as pve/pvp.
and for sentinels , i repost what i said. first: : if Intimidation does 50% out of your maximum Defense as Damage, instead of Power.
cause for what we know for now 50% out of 10k power = 5000 damage and this damage multiplies by damage bonus/crit severity
so what about 50% out of defense? as we know gwf put only radiants on defense slots for more hp.
so lets say 5k defense = 2500 damage and it multiplies with less damage bonus , cause less power, this way sentinel will remain the tank paragon , without needing to stack alot of power for intimidation, and it will not deal alot of damage burst damage anymore.
but to compesate this lack of damage, lets shorten the cooldowns on daring shout and come and get it.
with 0 stats (no recovery or INT)
restoring strike - 12s
ibs - 14s
Cagi - 15s
daring shout - 18s
and with 1300 recovery + 2 int
restoring strike - 10.5
ibs - 12.3
cagi 13.1
daring shout - 15.8
so intimidation won't depend on power anymore, but on defense.
the 50%(or 80%)out of max defense will multiply with less damage bonus /same crit severity.
not to mention all attacks will deal less damage: atwills, 3rd encounter and daily , because less power.
to help it out what we can do? is to decrease the cooldowns on cagi and daring shout.
cagi from 15s to 11-12 seconds- more responsive.
daring shout from 18s to 13s -with better animation.
i think this is the best for sentinel paragon. maybe some adjustments, that way there wont be problems.
there are people gettin more power from pots/altars and stuff , so the 35% nerf wont solve anything. and if you get it down more, there wont be any point in being sentinel either.
so best solution is to change power with defense.
From my understanding, a TR can now kill pretty much everything on the Preview, including, yes, HRs (am talking about BiS level PvPers).
As for CWs, their state is so horribad that even a DC could kill them. I personally stopped bothering to go to preview after getting my 43K HP CW one-shot by Lashing Blade. Had enough of that back in the days. I will probably see what Tiamat looks like though.
Then none of those TRs are posting on the TR feedback thread. Around 90% of the posts on there are about how gimped the class is now.
There is a one-shot Executioner build. But it's a suicide bomber with zero defence and next to no stealth. Anyone running it will get cheesy kills vs players they catch on their own, but will fall fast in any 1v2 or in those cases where the one-shot fails.
Overall the buffs and nerfs balance out IMO apart from a couple of niche builds. And I fully expect them to be nerfed further.
Then none of those TRs are posting on the TR feedback thread. Around 90% of the posts on there are about how gimped the class is now.
There is a one-shot Executioner build. But it's a suicide bomber with zero defence and next to no stealth. Anyone running it will get cheesy kills vs players they catch on their own, but will fall fast in any 1v2 or in those cases where the one-shot fails.
Overall the buffs and nerfs balance out IMO apart from a couple of niche builds. And I fully expect them to be nerfed further.
Well d'oh lol.
I didn't test further than getting one-shot by lashing yet, but apparently there's a perma-CC TR build that can kill HRs quite easily.
Of course people aren't posting they want this stuff to make it to Live so they can own, what do you think
Then none of those TRs are posting on the TR feedback thread. Around 90% of the posts on there are about how gimped the class is now.
There is a one-shot Executioner build. But it's a suicide bomber with zero defence and next to no stealth. Anyone running it will get cheesy kills vs players they catch on their own, but will fall fast in any 1v2 or in those cases where the one-shot fails.
Overall the buffs and nerfs balance out IMO apart from a couple of niche builds. And I fully expect them to be nerfed further.
I posted much of this very thing. And I said this would happen in my feedback post.
I am one of the TR's thats been giving feedback for balance sake and not hiding or commenting on things to keep the boarderline overpowered outcomes that will be coming behind closed doors.
Every feedback I made I said this would happen and the more this goes on, the more this is proving to be true.
For instance the Dazing Strike speed along with the changes to stealth just makes things cheese. And note that feedback I gave was without even speccing any feats. So you can guess TR's are going to be in some over powered states if things arent addressed now before hand.
I rather have things balanced out now rather than nerfed later down the line as it inevitably will be. Which is what happened the first time.
I know the 2 classes that have every right to complain about CWs: TRs and DCs and THEY ARE GETTING MASSIVE REWORKS AND BUFFS.
PVP CWs on the other hand, are getting massive nerfs
This is new!
I have lots of good DCs whose are making lots of succesfful run with me and no complaints!
TRs complaining?
TRs weren't killed by CWs!
TRs were killed by GWFs when in the early stage of mod2 when everyone wanted GWF for everywhere instead of them.
I didn't use my TR since then!
in the early stage of mod2 when everyone wanted GWF for everywhere instead of them.
maybe dont talk about stuff you clearly dont have a clue about, even in mod2 CW did more DPS(at least the ones who played their class instead of bashing their faces against keyboard) than GWF on top of having insane control abilities, CW were and still are BiS PvE class by far.
PvP was fkd up then but its not like game mode that has 2 maps and has seen no improvements since beta matters
I didn't test further than getting one-shot by lashing yet, but apparently there's a perma-CC TR build that can kill HRs quite easily.
Of course people aren't posting they want this stuff to make it to Live so they can own, what do you think
Honestly my own testing doesn't show anything at all OP with the 'new' TR - but then I'm focussed purely on PvE capability. The TR is probably the most difficult class to balance in PvP without destroying it in PvE.
The one-shot builds should have been removed by the nerf to First Strike. Might be worth testing again.
The perma-daze builds would be dangerous for HR and any other class with no CC break ability but they cannot remain in stealth while they do it so are no more dangerous than any other class with lots of CC and considerably less so than a CW. That build also lacks burst DPS.
TR still needs work before release but I would not say they have received MAJOR buffs when you consider how badly nerfed stealth is now.
I am one of the TR's thats been giving feedback for balance sake and not hiding or commenting on things to keep the boarderline overpowered outcomes that will be coming behind closed doors.
Every feedback I made I said this would happen and the more this goes on, the more this is proving to be true.
For instance the Dazing Strike speed along with the changes to stealth just makes things cheese. And note that feedback I gave was without even speccing any feats. So you can guess TR's are going to be in some over powered states if things arent addressed now before hand.
I rather have things balanced out now rather than nerfed later down the line as it inevitably will be. Which is what happened the first time.
I can see how DS might be OP in a Sab build but without the extra speed it's just about useless in both PvP and PvE. Best solution would be to reduce daze duration against players maybe?
Is one-shotting still a thing now that First Strike has been nerfed? Without slotting that even Executioner doesn't one-shot the tougher mobs in HEs so anyone with decent HP in PvP should be safe.
Please change the combat advantage to a mark. Weapon master has a hard time marking enemies so this should apply a mark instead of giving combat advantage only. The duration could also be 10-12 seconds.
Also the rest of the feats on the lower row of the instigator tree need a buff/rework + the 10% deflect while sprinting is a poor t3 feat - hr for example has piercing blade +40% dmg (pretty much instigator capstone perma active).
The changes to the GWF and the CW seem to be completely drivin by pvp crying. I really wish they would stop "balancing" classes based on pvp. It just screws up pve for those classes.
You could just fix pvp. Create separate Qs for premades and pugs with separate leader boards. Not having some 22k monster GWF ripping through a 10k pug group will go a long ways to cutting the volume of whining.
At the upper end of pvp I dont believe the classes are really out of whack. DCs and TRs are getting a rework. All the other classes, played well, seem balanced to me.
Nerfing CWs and GWF for the sake of pvp is going to hurt them in pve. If you really believe there is some ability too OP in pvp then just nerf it in pvp. You did this with assailing force, control abilities like takedown ect.
Please dont cripple these classes in pve.
I can see how DS might be OP in a Sab build but without the extra speed it's just about useless in both PvP and PvE. Best solution would be to reduce daze duration against players maybe?
Is one-shotting still a thing now that First Strike has been nerfed? Without slotting that even Executioner doesn't one-shot the tougher mobs in HEs so anyone with decent HP in PvP should be safe.
There are some TRs that can do one shot kill from steal on live now. Faced one with my 20 HR. But at that moment i was like 80% health and no Barks. Yet in other cases he did not succeed. But he was hitting hard some times like 50% at least of my health ~ 16k pure damage. This is one case and one guy did this only. At the same time i could deal with him in other situations. Perma steal i hope will be fixed. As you sad there are changes to first strike. This will I hope eliminate one shot kill from pvp. Future changes to CW I do hope do the same. There is no place for 80% of 1 rotation kill in pvp. Unless your and opponents GS is like 6k different.
Also side note - with current state of pvp balancing classes on pvp only is a crappy idea. Balancing old and current pve content should matter more - CWs control or damage role. HRs - damage or damage/control or buff. TR - single target role. SW - damage or damage/heal and so on. We can not get rid of old dungeon content. It is still 80% of game. We do get to few of new stuff and as mod 4 gear showed - t2 gear is still usually better. Even thought I do think that elol is best dungeon so far.
You missed the point. The point was that groups used to run with a TR to DPS the boss, while CWs would deal with adds. Then GWFs stole that role from TRs once they boosted GWFs. That's besides CWs being the best class for older PvE content.
i thought they took tr only because tr could run through the **** thing
nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
As GWF, I am 19k GS who run premade everyday.
1. Ferocious Reaction + Instigator Path on 50% = Damage?.
Slot 55k+ HP, 60k is optional! Double check on the OP damage! It's okay to put an idiot who don't play GWF as an advocate but at-least do your testing. Stuff like this, you deserve the bashing and then our class is nerfed to the ground every time because of complaints.
2. Sentinel, for compensation for 35% intimidation feat, please increase the range of DS by 5 and decrease cool down by 2s.
3. Do something about glyphs unless you want the game to become a 2 shot pvp mayhem.
Comments
Feedback: Control Wizard
As the name implies CW should be focusing in AOE crowd control so why is it that this class can dish out so much damage even in single target?
Feedback: Hunter Ranger
This class have 3 encounters in range and 3 encounters in melee that the other encounter does not go cooldown when switching stances if you are really serious about balance then when one encounter is used in one stance the other encounter should also have cooldown.
Feedback: Scourge Warlock
High damage, debuff, minions, self heal, durable due to % damage in Vitality stats.....one man army
Because control is boring for everyone. If they remove the damage and keep the control we have now, we would be useless and if they add more control the class becomes boring because that would lead to perma control and thats no fun for anyone.
So fun for you is? IMBALANCE? range, shield, cc lock, multiple blink, aoe and damage what else do you want to add in you class? heal? invisibilty?
What class are you?
We will help you deal with CWs, just post exactly what your issues are.
I know the 2 classes that have every right to complain about CWs: TRs and DCs and THEY ARE GETTING MASSIVE REWORKS AND BUFFS.
PVP CWs on the other hand, are getting massive nerfs
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
You have no idea how poor PVP DCs and TRs are in live server or how overpowered they are on preview server then.
Unless you are talking about PVE in which case, I would reply who cares? PVE is a joke and any 14k gs class with an inferior build built by a 2-year old would complete almost any dungeon
From my understanding, a TR can now kill pretty much everything on the Preview, including, yes, HRs (am talking about BiS level PvPers).
As for CWs, their state is so horribad that even a DC could kill them. I personally stopped bothering to go to preview after getting my 43K HP CW one-shot by Lashing Blade. Had enough of that back in the days. I will probably see what Tiamat looks like though.
Crippling strike: frontline surge and savage advance now in addition slow targets by 15/30/45/60/75% and grant combat advantage for 3/6/9/12/15 seconds.
Instigator vengeance: in addition to bonus damage, taking damage you build determination 30% faster.
m8 this things aren't good, the instigator deals resonable damage in PVP and can dps aproximatly all clases.
problem is his lack of surviability. the paragon seems a little unconfy and unloved , if you examine with other paragons as destroyer / sentinel this paragon lacks someth.
Destroyer paragon has destroyer
sentinel paragon has weapon master
both have a buff on sure strike
instigator indeed has a good t1 and good 2 t2 , but from there on, it seems it lacks someth.
imo they should add someth that gives him more surviability. for example rechargin faster stamina , or they can add steadfastdetermination for the gain of unstoppable like you said or Bravery to give more deflect/stamina. DOT resist, or the old unstopable of 25-50%, but to have the capstone too similar to destroyer it's too much.
btw: mark gives combat advantage already ..
to fix destroyer paragon , it's to give a flat of 20% damage bonus and let it 1 stack / 1% damage bonus.
that way its all fixed as pve/pvp.
and for sentinels , i repost what i said.
first: : if Intimidation does 50% out of your maximum Defense as Damage, instead of Power.
cause for what we know for now 50% out of 10k power = 5000 damage and this damage multiplies by damage bonus/crit severity
so what about 50% out of defense? as we know gwf put only radiants on defense slots for more hp.
so lets say 5k defense = 2500 damage and it multiplies with less damage bonus , cause less power, this way sentinel will remain the tank paragon , without needing to stack alot of power for intimidation, and it will not deal alot of damage burst damage anymore.
but to compesate this lack of damage, lets shorten the cooldowns on daring shout and come and get it.
with 0 stats (no recovery or INT)
restoring strike - 12s
ibs - 14s
Cagi - 15s
daring shout - 18s
and with 1300 recovery + 2 int
restoring strike - 10.5
ibs - 12.3
cagi 13.1
daring shout - 15.8
so intimidation won't depend on power anymore, but on defense.
the 50%(or 80%)out of max defense will multiply with less damage bonus /same crit severity.
not to mention all attacks will deal less damage: atwills, 3rd encounter and daily , because less power.
to help it out what we can do? is to decrease the cooldowns on cagi and daring shout.
cagi from 15s to 11-12 seconds- more responsive.
daring shout from 18s to 13s -with better animation.
i think this is the best for sentinel paragon. maybe some adjustments, that way there wont be problems.
there are people gettin more power from pots/altars and stuff , so the 35% nerf wont solve anything. and if you get it down more, there wont be any point in being sentinel either.
so best solution is to change power with defense.
There is a one-shot Executioner build. But it's a suicide bomber with zero defence and next to no stealth. Anyone running it will get cheesy kills vs players they catch on their own, but will fall fast in any 1v2 or in those cases where the one-shot fails.
Overall the buffs and nerfs balance out IMO apart from a couple of niche builds. And I fully expect them to be nerfed further.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Well d'oh lol.
I didn't test further than getting one-shot by lashing yet, but apparently there's a perma-CC TR build that can kill HRs quite easily.
Of course people aren't posting they want this stuff to make it to Live so they can own, what do you think
I posted much of this very thing. And I said this would happen in my feedback post.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?773401-Official-Feedback-Thread-Trickster-Rogue-Changes&p=9297851&viewfull=1#post9297851
Every feedback I made I said this would happen and the more this goes on, the more this is proving to be true.
For instance the Dazing Strike speed along with the changes to stealth just makes things cheese. And note that feedback I gave was without even speccing any feats. So you can guess TR's are going to be in some over powered states if things arent addressed now before hand.
I rather have things balanced out now rather than nerfed later down the line as it inevitably will be. Which is what happened the first time.
This is new!
I have lots of good DCs whose are making lots of succesfful run with me and no complaints!
TRs complaining?
TRs weren't killed by CWs!
TRs were killed by GWFs when in the early stage of mod2 when everyone wanted GWF for everywhere instead of them.
I didn't use my TR since then!
maybe dont talk about stuff you clearly dont have a clue about, even in mod2 CW did more DPS(at least the ones who played their class instead of bashing their faces against keyboard) than GWF on top of having insane control abilities, CW were and still are BiS PvE class by far.
PvP was fkd up then but its not like game mode that has 2 maps and has seen no improvements since beta matters
The one-shot builds should have been removed by the nerf to First Strike. Might be worth testing again.
The perma-daze builds would be dangerous for HR and any other class with no CC break ability but they cannot remain in stealth while they do it so are no more dangerous than any other class with lots of CC and considerably less so than a CW. That build also lacks burst DPS.
TR still needs work before release but I would not say they have received MAJOR buffs when you consider how badly nerfed stealth is now.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Is one-shotting still a thing now that First Strike has been nerfed? Without slotting that even Executioner doesn't one-shot the tougher mobs in HEs so anyone with decent HP in PvP should be safe.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Please change the combat advantage to a mark. Weapon master has a hard time marking enemies so this should apply a mark instead of giving combat advantage only. The duration could also be 10-12 seconds.
Also the rest of the feats on the lower row of the instigator tree need a buff/rework + the 10% deflect while sprinting is a poor t3 feat - hr for example has piercing blade +40% dmg (pretty much instigator capstone perma active).
You could just fix pvp. Create separate Qs for premades and pugs with separate leader boards. Not having some 22k monster GWF ripping through a 10k pug group will go a long ways to cutting the volume of whining.
At the upper end of pvp I dont believe the classes are really out of whack. DCs and TRs are getting a rework. All the other classes, played well, seem balanced to me.
Nerfing CWs and GWF for the sake of pvp is going to hurt them in pve. If you really believe there is some ability too OP in pvp then just nerf it in pvp. You did this with assailing force, control abilities like takedown ect.
Please dont cripple these classes in pve.
I posted everything I found out about the new TRs, made videos of PvP and PvE, showcasing what they could do.
If interested, visit the Thieve's Den forums and look up my posts.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
There are some TRs that can do one shot kill from steal on live now. Faced one with my 20 HR. But at that moment i was like 80% health and no Barks. Yet in other cases he did not succeed. But he was hitting hard some times like 50% at least of my health ~ 16k pure damage. This is one case and one guy did this only. At the same time i could deal with him in other situations. Perma steal i hope will be fixed. As you sad there are changes to first strike. This will I hope eliminate one shot kill from pvp. Future changes to CW I do hope do the same. There is no place for 80% of 1 rotation kill in pvp. Unless your and opponents GS is like 6k different.
Also side note - with current state of pvp balancing classes on pvp only is a crappy idea. Balancing old and current pve content should matter more - CWs control or damage role. HRs - damage or damage/control or buff. TR - single target role. SW - damage or damage/heal and so on. We can not get rid of old dungeon content. It is still 80% of game. We do get to few of new stuff and as mod 4 gear showed - t2 gear is still usually better. Even thought I do think that elol is best dungeon so far.
i thought they took tr only because tr could run through the **** thing
1. Ferocious Reaction + Instigator Path on 50% = Damage?.
Slot 55k+ HP, 60k is optional! Double check on the OP damage! It's okay to put an idiot who don't play GWF as an advocate but at-least do your testing. Stuff like this, you deserve the bashing and then our class is nerfed to the ground every time because of complaints.
2. Sentinel, for compensation for 35% intimidation feat, please increase the range of DS by 5 and decrease cool down by 2s.
3. Do something about glyphs unless you want the game to become a 2 shot pvp mayhem.
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