Back before module 2, lifesteal was an extremely difficult Stat to get above 600 without seriously reducing your Damage or slotting Dark Enchantment in Defensive Slots.
Now, lifesteal is handed out like candy and just about every dps class has between 9-13% before modifiers, which makes Clerics obsolete for healing purposes.
In order to make healing clerics useful (and wanted in a party, rather than as a debuffer/buffer) and the upcoming rework have any effect, lifesteal simply has to be toned down.
I would be OK with Lifesteal still granting the current %, but it has to be capped at no more than 1000 HP returned per attack. This continues to allow Lifesteal to be a great stat to have and keep at ~10% (due to At Wills) but will prevent Encounters and Dailies simply healing you back to full in a single cast every few seconds.
Right now, the only way it is possible for a smart Damage Dealer class (GWF, CW, HR) to die is to be chain-proned for a significant duration or be one-hit. Anything else you just survive due to lifesteal and can stand in Red all day (unless its a one-hit).
And Guardian Fighters can tank with Knight's Valor on without a cleric or Temptation Warlock in party due to Lifesteal and Fighter's Recovery as well, which I simply can't believe is intended by design.
As a side effect, capping the Lifesteal effect will also make Temptation Warlocks not easily outheal Clerics all the time, as cleric healing has cooldowns and what not, and Warlock healing is constant (i.e. lifesteal)
Nop i think it wont help example CW icy terrain no target cap 40 mobs x 1000 hp =40k hp .
After KV nerf GF dont benefit soo much from LS he is the weakest spot in this LS situation.
Icy Terrain is extremely unlikely to ever tick for 10k+ on a regular basis, which would be required to heal 1000 hp.
You gain 10k not from Icy Terrain you gain 10k crits from Storm Spell.
I have only 6% LS an this heals me more hp then i have .(around 30k)
And i dont talk about OF. 100 k heals.
Also if you are complaining about gettin hit for 20k etc and dying then it's likely cos u r not a tank or even a GWF and therefore in groups should maybe let them do their job instead of rushing in, then you wont get hit or have to dodge as often and a good DC will be able to keep u alive without u thinkin u need life steal to do so ^
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited October 2014
"Remove Life Steal & Buff Regen "
I read the title. I suppose we should remove heal potions too?
Uhm, no thanks.
Leave life steal and regen alone please.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
LOL, and some people still think that this would make DC's more wanted? People will just stack twice the amount of LS if it ever gets nerfed like this minority of people demands it and leave all of the drama queen DC behind, in PE without something to do because even with less offensive stats, stacking dps will still be the way to go. I wonder where this type of delusion originates from, maybe bad mmo experiences (WoW???)?
I think SW can hit for such crazy amount of dmg, because the class is still new and could use some fixing, but since it is the fotm that every 12 year old and their grandparents is rolling right now, it may very well take some time before it gets adjusted. Because, why not milk the whales?
Like i said, think first, then start posting. ~ tyvm.
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fusionawesomeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 121Arc User
I read the title. I suppose we should remove heal potions too?
Uhm, no thanks.
Leave life steal and regen alone please.
I actually did read after the title and most of us agree to not remove lifesteal, however do feel that it is too powerful in its current state. Most dps classes can heal themselves to full with one encounter which makes content too easy and teamwork obsolete. But thank you for your argumentation.
LOL, and some people still think that this would make DC's more wanted? People will just stack twice the amount of LS if it ever gets nerfed like this minority of people demands it and leave all of the drama queen DC behind, in PE without something to do because even with less offensive stats, stacking dps will still be the way to go. I wonder where this type of delusion originates from, maybe bad mmo experiences (WoW???)?
Everything simply depends on at which point people start to think about balancing offensive stats and LS. If some idiots want to just blindly follow a single stat to oblivion, they're welcome to do so.
Fortunately, most people are actually smarter than you would think, and tend to make judgements based on overall efficiency between two differing stats. If diminishing returns, or inherent inhibitions, or whatever the cause makes investing into LS just not very efficient, most people simply tend to give it up, invest in other stats, and the rest is simply a matter of spending a few minutes in the LFG channel or finding some friends to play together and support each other.
After all, that's what all the other MMOs do. Actually, its a mystery as to what kind of galls it would take to call a game that is massively more successful than this one "bad". Besides, whether you like it or not, many people in that other brand tend to enjoy themselves in a role diverse environment -- so if preference of the masses mean anything, even in this moment, in its waning days, that other game still has more people thinking that its good fun, than there are people who think about NW in that same way. That other game has hordes and globs of people who run raids every week on set days with people lining up to get a chance to join them.
You'd just have them painted as people playing 'bad' games, all 2 million of them, while us playing this HAMSTER of a steamroll PvE is 'good'?
Arrogancy, snobbism and short-sightedness tends to cloud up judgements about how people react, or what is 'good' or 'bad' about it. Snap out of it.
Like i said, think first, then start posting. ~ tyvm.
Look in the mirror and whisper those very words. You look like the person who needs the taste of one's own prescription more than anyone else.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Back before module 2, lifesteal was an extremely difficult Stat to get above 600 without seriously reducing your Damage or slotting Dark Enchantment in Defensive Slots.
Now, lifesteal is handed out like candy and just about every dps class has between 9-13% before modifiers, which makes Clerics obsolete for healing purposes.
In order to make healing clerics useful (and wanted in a party, rather than as a debuffer/buffer) and the upcoming rework have any effect, lifesteal simply has to be toned down.
I would be OK with Lifesteal still granting the current %, but it has to be capped at no more than 1000 HP returned per attack. This continues to allow Lifesteal to be a great stat to have and keep at ~10% (due to At Wills) but will prevent Encounters and Dailies simply healing you back to full in a single cast every few seconds.
Right now, the only way it is possible for a smart Damage Dealer class (GWF, CW, HR) to die is to be chain-proned for a significant duration or be one-hit. Anything else you just survive due to lifesteal and can stand in Red all day (unless its a one-hit).
And Guardian Fighters can tank with Knight's Valor on without a cleric or Temptation Warlock in party due to Lifesteal and Fighter's Recovery as well, which I simply can't believe is intended by design.
As a side effect, capping the Lifesteal effect will also make Temptation Warlocks not easily outheal Clerics all the time, as cleric healing has cooldowns and what not, and Warlock healing is constant (i.e. lifesteal)
How about capping it at 50% of your Maximum HP? Or bring some interesting mechanics into play..such as: You get stunned for 5 secs if you steal more than 50% of your maximum HP (so either stack less Lifesteal stat or try not to hit too hard or too many ).
LOL, and some people still think that this would make DC's more wanted? People will just stack twice the amount of LS if it ever gets nerfed like this minority of people demands it and leave all of the drama queen DC behind, in PE without something to do because even with less offensive stats, stacking dps will still be the way to go. I wonder where this type of delusion originates from, maybe bad mmo experiences (WoW???)?
I think SW can hit for such crazy amount of dmg, because the class is still new and could use some fixing, but since it is the fotm that every 12 year old and their grandparents is rolling right now, it may very well take some time before it gets adjusted. Because, why not milk the whales?
Like i said, think first, then start posting. ~ tyvm.
That's why I said remove it, I didn't play WOW, but if you think that a dungeon should be a marathonic run, instead of actually acting like a team... I would say that you had bad mmo experiences... , Like I said, the only thing is LS doing is making the game worse, what's the porpurse of a DC?, whats the porpurse of the big guy with a Shield?, only buffs?, OK, so the big guy with a shield and High DR is a buff bot while the squishy guy with a robe can Tank everything with Life Steal, very logic .
Bah, it's all because of "clerics need to heal" bias. This is not D&D, this is Neverwinter and the only heal anobody needs is a self-heal. Try thinking outside of the box - better buffs is what a cleric needs, not more heals. And better dmg too, ofc.
That's why I said remove it, I didn't play WOW, but if you think that a dungeon should be a marathonic run, instead of actually acting like a team... I would say that you had bad mmo experiences... , Like I said, the only thing is LS doing is making the game worse, what's the porpurse of a DC?, whats the porpurse of the big guy with a Shield?, only buffs?, OK, so the big guy with a shield and High DR is a buff bot while the squishy guy with a robe can Tank everything with Life Steal, very logic .
Have to agree it's generally not that fun when playing as a GF and you just end up watching selfish damage class players charge into things as fast as possible without you and just expect you to keep them alive with things like Knight's Valor or chase after them to rescue them from their reckless behavior, and life steal is a big part of why people can get away with this. DCs also as has been mentioned and have had the need for their primary role made obsolete half the time also cos of this stat...and the irony is healing with a DC should encourage the group to work as a team due to the way they heal and buff, not just runnin off ahead of everyone or doing ur own thing by urself.
With reference to DCs role in D&D games I played several of the old games including IWD, BG2 and NWN and I remember having a cleric in my parties in those games was always something I wanted or I would quickly run out of potions...
then use In to the Fray and MOVE yer tin HAMSTER, im not dragging dungeon 2x longer just to wait while GF slowly walks to next spawn enjoying the view and taking pictures
Have to agree it's generally not that fun when playing as a GF and you just end up watching selfish damage class players charge into things as fast as possible without you and just expect you to keep them alive with things like Knight's Valor or chase after them to rescue them from their reckless behavior, and life steal is a big part of why people can get away with this. DCs also as has been mentioned and have had the need for their primary role made obsolete half the time also cos of this stat...and the irony is healing with a DC should encourage the group to work as a team due to the way they heal and buff, not just runnin off ahead of everyone or doing ur own thing by urself.
With reference to DCs role in D&D games I played several of the old games including IWD, BG2 and NWN and I remember having a cleric in my parties in those games was always something I wanted or I would quickly run out of potions...
the game was designed so any party composition could win any fight and it was never about roles to begin with. hence why everyone needs a way to survive without active healing or a tank.
but a cleric can't really heal a team like in other mmo's. their main heal requires you to stay in a circle of like 5 meters where aoe-cc's are a plenty on top of 90% of the game spamming tons of mobs that no player can handle in a small circle. targetted heals in a game without auto-targetting and thus you can have heals miss and/or mobs hiding players which results in difficulty in actually healing someone before they would die. sticky targetting + mob spam also makes using divine forgemaster's flame and astral seals hard to pull off effectively since you can't efficiently pick the target that someone is attacking. this cleric would do well in other mmo's but not this one where every ranged dps is running around for their lives instead of all the ranged dps standing next to each other while the melees just whack a lone boss.
The fact is tho (and this is getting offtopic) only a tanking class has the ability to control and hold aggro to prevent enemies going after whoever is currently doing the most damage to them for example. This is why it's generally a good idea to let them go first and do their job so others don't have to dodge around to avoid red attacks aimed at other members of the team; or force the person playin as a tank to feel that they just has to chase after some impatient player who thinks they r unkillable due to things like life steal and is only thinking of how much dmg they can do and how fast they can pull things. If people let tanks do their job then maybe life steal wouldn't be needed the way it currently works.
With DCs healing that's what I meant by people needing to understand how they heal and use some team work. Astral Shield is big enough for people not to have to stand on top of each other, then it comes down to where the DC player places it...generally putting it on top of mobs isnt that helpful cos it would force the ranged people to go to melee range to benefit from it for example. I agree about single target healing spells however, with the current game mechanics and targetting system it is just not good enough to use them effectively most times except in certain situations like healing a tank who is kiting enemies. DCs have enough other healing options like BoH and FF (and I suppose Sunburst) to be able to heal both ranged and melee people so long as they arent spread out all over the room, which unless its a fight without adds or party wide damage is generally a bad idea anyway.
So to sum up I still feeling if people could learn to play dungeons as a team more then life steal as it is shouldnt be needed, otherwise it just encourages "I'm going to run into this large group of enemies first and attack them for best dmg and this is ok cos I wont die" attitude imo :< OK if the tank in the group is being a bit slow I understand the need to try and make things go a bit faster, but it wouldnt kill you to be considerate of others in the group and understand that some people arent as experienced or perhaps are just exploring the dungeon a bit. We were all new and doing that at one point eh...
I like the fact that self healing can come from two different stats. And each have their place within PvP. PvE Lifesteal outstrips Regen by far.
+1
I prefer regen in PvE too, so I can jump off high cliffs and be in fighting condition in no time without needing to kill some adds first. Around 1200 of both is optimum I think.
I have no idea about GF, but my GWF went well with just the bound potions given at the start when I supplemented with the healing encounter hit and Indomitable healing/temp hp. At level 60 I still rarely use potions outside pvp ,except in some especially though bosses like Val, Mal, Lom, CN guys, Dragonsouls etc. and I believe TR uses even less. HR has much lifesteal from gear and can range, so if for him melee makes you sip pots, that is your problem not mine.
I agree that healers have little use at the moment, but they are remade in the next module, so not much to say about it at this point. Pots are way too cheap to my liking, as they are hardly worth selling in AH for major pot and the others have much better value selling them for gold scraps. Thus even if you need to sip pots like there is no tomorrow, you can get them dirt cheap, so no problem there either.
Give us 4 or more power/item bar profiles so we can change powers and items with one click that are suited for the situation.
the game was designed so any party composition could win any fight and it was never about roles to begin with. hence why everyone needs a way to survive without active healing or a tank.
but a cleric can't really heal a team like in other mmo's. their main heal requires you to stay in a circle of like 5 meters where aoe-cc's are a plenty on top of 90% of the game spamming tons of mobs that no player can handle in a small circle. targetted heals in a game without auto-targetting and thus you can have heals miss and/or mobs hiding players which results in difficulty in actually healing someone before they would die. sticky targetting + mob spam also makes using divine forgemaster's flame and astral seals hard to pull off effectively since you can't efficiently pick the target that someone is attacking. this cleric would do well in other mmo's but not this one where every ranged dps is running around for their lives instead of all the ranged dps standing next to each other while the melees just whack a lone boss.
Running around for their lives is kinda mildly put it
I think they thould make it so that once healer tabs into healing mode, they can target only friendlies AND party members could be targeted by pressing alt and pressing the picture in party menu (if in range). That would solve majority of the problems.
Give us 4 or more power/item bar profiles so we can change powers and items with one click that are suited for the situation.
The DC was using healing spells only (healing word, astral shield, FF), was 17k or so, he had a vorpal... Well, the good old healbot. I've been able to outheal a dedicated healer in a run. He couldn't even heal me before lifesteal does it.
In the meantime the only thing the game is about is max dps characters facetanking everything with lifesteal making them play in god mode. So yep CWs and dps GWFs are better tanks than dedicated tanks; I'm not sure about HRs since I don't play one but i've seen many taking a lot of bad hits and being the last man standing on the battlefield when something goes wrong. If it's not a long prone stand in red. That's the current state of pve.
I know this thread draw some hate because we're talking about hurting some people's farming efficiency or lousy builds but there is currently no variety at all in the choice of builds, class we invite to runs, and some class are catered to roles they may not be built for in the first place if people chose some specific paths. How's that supposed to be satisfying when you level up so much your cleric to heal others and be outhealed by a random CW mindlessly standing in red, tanking and spanking almost alone all the way to the boss?
So, you play a support healer char for a year or so, you level it up to 17k GS, you equip it well, you buy an expensive 110% mount because everyone has one, you unlock some supposedly challenging piece of content and you discover that your character is useless, there is absolutely no role for it, and you're just playing in /spectate mode, according the score board. That must feel awesome.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited October 2014
Dio, and without this LS dc would not be able to heal u in time, and u would be died like squishy cw is. If u think u can survive in Pve when ur hp normaly is jumpin up and down with only dc heal, u r mistaken, well probably templock would be able to save u. From the other side, they want to remove LS completly, which means templock becomes an empty patch. oO
U took over 800k dmg m8. Which means u were standing mindlessly in red too, and since KR is kinda fast with not so many encounters, i assume u would die with this playstyle of yours, before DC would be able to even use AS, evrytime encouter would start (since u r one of those annoying cw's who must be on point, leading whole pary, no worries im too)
Oh well, at least healing stones would become usefull.
And u guis need to remember we mostly outgear our content, and mostly those ppl r speak out here, bring 13k party to VT ( let say all quite around month after reaching L60) without dc or tank with KV, and they will mostly wipe in first phase... Like usualy u guis r watching from ur own spot not thinking about how nerf liek that will massacre low gear players. Its not first time of idiocy like that. Most of nerfs more hurt low gs players than those of end game. Nobody seems noticing that.
BTW, wanna bet most of ppl speaking of nerfing/removing regen r pvp players? Again.
Next thing, eLoL(LLM) last fight, when is almost imposible to party gather in small circle of AS and fight boss. And only 3 stacks of healing word to save them. I would like to see fight like that without LS.
Some people need to have more faith in DCs ability to heal people tbh. They are quite capable of keeping people alive if they work well in the team with them, but if you run off alone like HRs or CWs seem to like to or feel the need to rush headlong into large groups of enemies alone before the tank, then no perhaps a DC couldnt keep you alive. However is this the DCs fault? I would say no cos that isnt good behaviour in a group and I would consider it trying to show off and reckless - which is what life steal at the moment encourages atm as it lets people get away with this kind of behaviour.
However if say people didnt wander too far off from the DC and perhaps thought about more than just how much dmg they can do and how fast/much they call pull, then they might find a DC is quite capable of keeping the party alive if they know how/when to use what spells in each situation.
NOOOoooo! Leave Life Steal and Regen alone for god's sake. No more nurfing stuff I beg you!
This is pretty much what every person who likes to have the best of all worlds will come in here and say, without justifying it with any valid reasons. And most of them will talk about their epic damage using their epeen builds without having had to sacrifice much on their defensive abilities, thanks to lifesteal.
In PvP it is the opposite situation. Life steal is too weak to be useful and regen is too strong to ignore. If you buffed regen you would break PvP back to the pre-healing depression era except people would have even more defensive capability than before. People are already tanky enough.
This is pretty much what every person who likes to have the best of all worlds will come in here and say, without justifying it with any valid reasons. And most of them will talk about their epic damage using their epeen builds without having had to sacrifice much on their defensive abilities, thanks to lifesteal.
and that ^ is what every QQ forum lurker will say
this game is made with life steal in mind, they wont overhaul all game so some failed cleric(ppl who know how to play cleric are really nice to have in a party) can feel important. nobody likes the healer drama queens at dungeons, at least now u can run any dungeon with any comp(as long as u have a cw or 3) so if u get a little drama queen for a healer/tank you can kick their useless rear ends, grab some random person from queue and finish the darn dungeon
good ppl are running ahead of party to increase the speed of the run AND they know how much they can take, ofc there are some unlucky crits/nabs/etc. that might cause them to die or pop soulforged but thats part of the run
this is an action(-ish) mmorpg, there is no place for ppl fighting green bars in their healer addon. with time they may introduce harder dungeons where there will be a need to heal tank even on top lvl pve(though i doubt it seeing how they focus on glue eaters)
now heals are needed in low gear lvl pve since there is no pve content in this game for pplv over 15~17k gs, ofc they will run and roflstomp the lowbie content
and gwfs are forced by developers to run squishy glass cannon builds else they are useless in pve, we cant tank(yes we can soak a lot of damage but threat is a problem) and since the game content favors ranged classes so much we need the lifesteal to heal back, we cant evade every red AND do good damage(for example we would lose the stupid stacks from destroyer capstone if we did that)
good HR does more damage, but doesnt bring much to party, just like gwf, ok we have a bit more utility so its ok, havent run with a good sw since tt fix so cant say about that and cw do same damage while having epic cc, if we won deal at least enough damage we are useless to party
this game is made with life steal in mind, they wont overhaul all game so some failed cleric..{insert text}blah..blah{end of text}
This game is made with life steal in mind, Yes. But it is not the only thing in mind. There were intentions to bring a lot more than just one stat. Unfortunately, a lot of it were capped or just plain ineffective. But to respond to that one line of yours-No, Life steal was not the only thing meant for this game. I will still stay in the game (I main a GWF and my CW is my second favorite toon, the cleric comes a distant third, and I havent even max leveled my Warlock yet) if they don't nerf Life steal. And try to find workarounds if they do. Will you?
No one wants an overhaul at this point for life steal. Just not for the Life steal to be as effective in making the Healing clerics all respec into Buff bots, just because you feel that is how a Cleric is meant to be played (if at all).
This is pretty much what every person who likes to have the best of all worlds will come in here and say, without justifying it with any valid reasons. And most of them will talk about their epic damage using their epeen builds without having had to sacrifice much on their defensive abilities, thanks to lifesteal.
Reason? Life Steal and Regen add a freakin cool dynamic to PvE combat - really fun stuff sucking the life from opponents.
Comments
Nop i think it wont help example CW icy terrain no target cap 40 mobs x 1000 hp =40k hp .
After KV nerf GF dont benefit soo much from LS he is the weakest spot in this LS situation.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
You gain 10k not from Icy Terrain you gain 10k crits from Storm Spell.
I have only 6% LS an this heals me more hp then i have .(around 30k)
And i dont talk about OF. 100 k heals.
The only thing y need to do is to wait for EotS.
I read the title. I suppose we should remove heal potions too?
Uhm, no thanks.
Leave life steal and regen alone please.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I think SW can hit for such crazy amount of dmg, because the class is still new and could use some fixing, but since it is the fotm that every 12 year old and their grandparents is rolling right now, it may very well take some time before it gets adjusted. Because, why not milk the whales?
Like i said, think first, then start posting. ~ tyvm.
I actually did read after the title and most of us agree to not remove lifesteal, however do feel that it is too powerful in its current state. Most dps classes can heal themselves to full with one encounter which makes content too easy and teamwork obsolete. But thank you for your argumentation.
Everything simply depends on at which point people start to think about balancing offensive stats and LS. If some idiots want to just blindly follow a single stat to oblivion, they're welcome to do so.
Fortunately, most people are actually smarter than you would think, and tend to make judgements based on overall efficiency between two differing stats. If diminishing returns, or inherent inhibitions, or whatever the cause makes investing into LS just not very efficient, most people simply tend to give it up, invest in other stats, and the rest is simply a matter of spending a few minutes in the LFG channel or finding some friends to play together and support each other.
After all, that's what all the other MMOs do. Actually, its a mystery as to what kind of galls it would take to call a game that is massively more successful than this one "bad". Besides, whether you like it or not, many people in that other brand tend to enjoy themselves in a role diverse environment -- so if preference of the masses mean anything, even in this moment, in its waning days, that other game still has more people thinking that its good fun, than there are people who think about NW in that same way. That other game has hordes and globs of people who run raids every week on set days with people lining up to get a chance to join them.
You'd just have them painted as people playing 'bad' games, all 2 million of them, while us playing this HAMSTER of a steamroll PvE is 'good'?
Arrogancy, snobbism and short-sightedness tends to cloud up judgements about how people react, or what is 'good' or 'bad' about it. Snap out of it.
Look in the mirror and whisper those very words. You look like the person who needs the taste of one's own prescription more than anyone else.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
How about capping it at 50% of your Maximum HP? Or bring some interesting mechanics into play..such as: You get stunned for 5 secs if you steal more than 50% of your maximum HP (so either stack less Lifesteal stat or try not to hit too hard or too many
That's why I said remove it, I didn't play WOW, but if you think that a dungeon should be a marathonic run, instead of actually acting like a team... I would say that you had bad mmo experiences...
dragons flying, gods actually existing, magic, very logic
Have to agree it's generally not that fun when playing as a GF and you just end up watching selfish damage class players charge into things as fast as possible without you and just expect you to keep them alive with things like Knight's Valor or chase after them to rescue them from their reckless behavior, and life steal is a big part of why people can get away with this. DCs also as has been mentioned and have had the need for their primary role made obsolete half the time also cos of this stat...and the irony is healing with a DC should encourage the group to work as a team due to the way they heal and buff, not just runnin off ahead of everyone or doing ur own thing by urself.
With reference to DCs role in D&D games I played several of the old games including IWD, BG2 and NWN and I remember having a cleric in my parties in those games was always something I wanted or I would quickly run out of potions...
the game was designed so any party composition could win any fight and it was never about roles to begin with. hence why everyone needs a way to survive without active healing or a tank.
but a cleric can't really heal a team like in other mmo's. their main heal requires you to stay in a circle of like 5 meters where aoe-cc's are a plenty on top of 90% of the game spamming tons of mobs that no player can handle in a small circle. targetted heals in a game without auto-targetting and thus you can have heals miss and/or mobs hiding players which results in difficulty in actually healing someone before they would die. sticky targetting + mob spam also makes using divine forgemaster's flame and astral seals hard to pull off effectively since you can't efficiently pick the target that someone is attacking. this cleric would do well in other mmo's but not this one where every ranged dps is running around for their lives instead of all the ranged dps standing next to each other while the melees just whack a lone boss.
With DCs healing that's what I meant by people needing to understand how they heal and use some team work. Astral Shield is big enough for people not to have to stand on top of each other, then it comes down to where the DC player places it...generally putting it on top of mobs isnt that helpful cos it would force the ranged people to go to melee range to benefit from it for example. I agree about single target healing spells however, with the current game mechanics and targetting system it is just not good enough to use them effectively most times except in certain situations like healing a tank who is kiting enemies. DCs have enough other healing options like BoH and FF (and I suppose Sunburst) to be able to heal both ranged and melee people so long as they arent spread out all over the room, which unless its a fight without adds or party wide damage is generally a bad idea anyway.
So to sum up I still feeling if people could learn to play dungeons as a team more then life steal as it is shouldnt be needed, otherwise it just encourages "I'm going to run into this large group of enemies first and attack them for best dmg and this is ok cos I wont die" attitude imo :< OK if the tank in the group is being a bit slow I understand the need to try and make things go a bit faster, but it wouldnt kill you to be considerate of others in the group and understand that some people arent as experienced or perhaps are just exploring the dungeon a bit. We were all new and doing that at one point eh...
+1
I prefer regen in PvE too, so I can jump off high cliffs and be in fighting condition in no time without needing to kill some adds first. Around 1200 of both is optimum I think.
I have no idea about GF, but my GWF went well with just the bound potions given at the start when I supplemented with the healing encounter hit and Indomitable healing/temp hp. At level 60 I still rarely use potions outside pvp ,except in some especially though bosses like Val, Mal, Lom, CN guys, Dragonsouls etc. and I believe TR uses even less. HR has much lifesteal from gear and can range, so if for him melee makes you sip pots, that is your problem not mine.
I agree that healers have little use at the moment, but they are remade in the next module, so not much to say about it at this point. Pots are way too cheap to my liking, as they are hardly worth selling in AH for major pot and the others have much better value selling them for gold scraps. Thus even if you need to sip pots like there is no tomorrow, you can get them dirt cheap, so no problem there either.
Running around for their lives is kinda mildly put it
I think they thould make it so that once healer tabs into healing mode, they can target only friendlies AND party members could be targeted by pressing alt and pressing the picture in party menu (if in range). That would solve majority of the problems.
http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/640315screenshot20141009011057.jpg
The DC was using healing spells only (healing word, astral shield, FF), was 17k or so, he had a vorpal... Well, the good old healbot. I've been able to outheal a dedicated healer in a run. He couldn't even heal me before lifesteal does it.
In the meantime the only thing the game is about is max dps characters facetanking everything with lifesteal making them play in god mode. So yep CWs and dps GWFs are better tanks than dedicated tanks; I'm not sure about HRs since I don't play one but i've seen many taking a lot of bad hits and being the last man standing on the battlefield when something goes wrong. If it's not a long prone stand in red. That's the current state of pve.
I know this thread draw some hate because we're talking about hurting some people's farming efficiency or lousy builds but there is currently no variety at all in the choice of builds, class we invite to runs, and some class are catered to roles they may not be built for in the first place if people chose some specific paths. How's that supposed to be satisfying when you level up so much your cleric to heal others and be outhealed by a random CW mindlessly standing in red, tanking and spanking almost alone all the way to the boss?
So, you play a support healer char for a year or so, you level it up to 17k GS, you equip it well, you buy an expensive 110% mount because everyone has one, you unlock some supposedly challenging piece of content and you discover that your character is useless, there is absolutely no role for it, and you're just playing in /spectate mode, according the score board. That must feel awesome.
U took over 800k dmg m8. Which means u were standing mindlessly in red too, and since KR is kinda fast with not so many encounters, i assume u would die with this playstyle of yours, before DC would be able to even use AS, evrytime encouter would start (since u r one of those annoying cw's who must be on point, leading whole pary, no worries im too)
Oh well, at least healing stones would become usefull.
And u guis need to remember we mostly outgear our content, and mostly those ppl r speak out here, bring 13k party to VT ( let say all quite around month after reaching L60) without dc or tank with KV, and they will mostly wipe in first phase... Like usualy u guis r watching from ur own spot not thinking about how nerf liek that will massacre low gear players. Its not first time of idiocy like that. Most of nerfs more hurt low gs players than those of end game. Nobody seems noticing that.
BTW, wanna bet most of ppl speaking of nerfing/removing regen r pvp players? Again.
Next thing, eLoL(LLM) last fight, when is almost imposible to party gather in small circle of AS and fight boss. And only 3 stacks of healing word to save them. I would like to see fight like that without LS.
However if say people didnt wander too far off from the DC and perhaps thought about more than just how much dmg they can do and how fast/much they call pull, then they might find a DC is quite capable of keeping the party alive if they know how/when to use what spells in each situation.
and that ^ is what every QQ forum lurker will say
this game is made with life steal in mind, they wont overhaul all game so some failed cleric(ppl who know how to play cleric are really nice to have in a party) can feel important. nobody likes the healer drama queens at dungeons, at least now u can run any dungeon with any comp(as long as u have a cw or 3) so if u get a little drama queen for a healer/tank you can kick their useless rear ends, grab some random person from queue and finish the darn dungeon
good ppl are running ahead of party to increase the speed of the run AND they know how much they can take, ofc there are some unlucky crits/nabs/etc. that might cause them to die or pop soulforged but thats part of the run
this is an action(-ish) mmorpg, there is no place for ppl fighting green bars in their healer addon. with time they may introduce harder dungeons where there will be a need to heal tank even on top lvl pve(though i doubt it seeing how they focus on glue eaters)
now heals are needed in low gear lvl pve since there is no pve content in this game for pplv over 15~17k gs, ofc they will run and roflstomp the lowbie content
and gwfs are forced by developers to run squishy glass cannon builds else they are useless in pve, we cant tank(yes we can soak a lot of damage but threat is a problem) and since the game content favors ranged classes so much we need the lifesteal to heal back, we cant evade every red AND do good damage(for example we would lose the stupid stacks from destroyer capstone if we did that)
good HR does more damage, but doesnt bring much to party, just like gwf, ok we have a bit more utility so its ok, havent run with a good sw since tt fix so cant say about that and cw do same damage while having epic cc, if we won deal at least enough damage we are useless to party
Reason? Life Steal and Regen add a freakin cool dynamic to PvE combat - really fun stuff sucking the life from opponents.