Melee TR, softest class in the game and the hardest to play effectively. I am also partially color blind. I got my LS down to just over 500. The game is still way too easy. I can drop gear to increase the challenge (still would be easy) but it is hard enough to get a group now and I would certainly have worse (if any) luck getting a group with all my gear save my weapons gone.
LS does need a serious nerf, though, it heals far too much currently.
tr has many ways to avoid damage, but the problem is not thats impossible but you lose too much time avoiding enemy attacks and ranged dps just roflstomp your damage/you never get anything done.
+ im often the only melee on my gwf so its either tank the mobs or chase mobs agro''d ranged classes( and there rarely are ppl who can pull mobs off me, even gfs :P)
either way, life-steal can't be removed as it's now crucial to temptation warlocks. better off just asking for cleric buffs like a healing at-will without using divinity or wait for the rogue/cleric rework which is coming in a week or so.
as a rogue, i need my life-steal. yeah, my deflect/dodges/itc can mitigate large amounts of damage but i am also taking lots of damage if i mess up even a little or my itc is on cooldown. since the new camp is throwing out mobs capable of 1-shots or at least 20k+ damage even with 36% resist, having options outside of waiting on a cleric/warlock would be nice. lostmauth spamming stalagmites on me preventing me from even meleeing til they stop or i can itc is very annoying and if i get caught once, i am chain-cc'ed for nearly my entire hp bar if i actually survive.
as a dps cleric, life-steal is actually how i solo both iwd and dragon camp. i have seen a plethora of clerics incapable of soloing or taking forever to do so while i have 0 issue and i get through it about as fast as my rogue. unstable in dragon camp though due to there being 3 mobs in ghost stories that can cause me to die so it's more of a dps/tankiness check.
i have seen almost every single gf just crumble before the might of the boss in epic shores of tuern and those who don't die generally have plenty of healers to make sure they live. once they do die or there wasn't a gf in the group, it then comes down to the dps having perfect dodge skills or the tankiest dps to solo the boss. without life-steal, any group without a healer might as well quit because pots are not gonna cover the extreme damage you are taking.
please stop asking for solo content to require actual grouping to finish and the actual group content to need specific classes in order to win.
If you don't like the game, fine. But don't ruin it for everyone else here who enjoys it as is.
Actually, no.
Group content should requite tank, heals and enough DPS to finish the boss before it enrages and kills everyone.
Oh wait. The boss doesn't enrage if not enough dps here. The CW tanks the boss and the warlock heals and the HR is better at single target than the TR.
GG, great design, every class is desired in PvE. Not.
Group content should requite tank, heals and enough DPS to finish the boss before it enrages and kills everyone.
Oh wait. The boss doesn't enrage if not enough dps here. The CW tanks the boss and the warlock heals and the HR is better at single target than the TR.
GG, great design, every class is desired in PvE. Not.
that's all cryptic's fault.
nerfed rogues in dps instead of perma-stealth and now anyone can keep up with a rogue in single-target dps.
bosses are generally static and/or use telegraphed attacks that are easy to avoid and thus no tank needed. tank is then relegated to a kiter for anything with mob spam. hard-hitting bosses that encourage tanks can still be defeated with skill instead. personally, i like the sense of accomplishment for beating such a boss with skill rather than the boring party composition in every game.
cleric's having single-target heals that can MISS by being slightly off the person, having to search for the person in need of healing and possibly taking too long, an aoe heal that can be immediately followed with a boss aoe covering it, and no way to heal with at-will outside of using divinity. cleric's have never been a real healer since the beginning.
There are a large number of players who hate the blasted trinity, and actually like that pretty much any group with any combination of classes can succeed. They can shove the entire idea of the trinity into the same dark hole that tab targeting went. Its an old mechanic that shackled players. I could care less if its the fastest or most optimal group. Id much rather play with people playing the class they enjoy the most and want to play. Rather then feeling obligated to filling some preset need just to satisfy mechanics.
You HAVE to be obligated to respect mechanics, or you will take shortcuts. Shortcuts that exclude players that are not guilty in the very least that they enjoy playing some class that happens to be not the FOTM one. If you lucky to play/enjoy a FOTM class, such as CWs and GWFs were/are, you would be satisfied. If not, well, you drew the short stick.
I can't see how is this fair and normal as a mechanic.
There are a large number of players who hate the blasted trinity, and actually like that pretty much any group with any combination of classes can succeed. They can shove the entire idea of the trinity into the same dark hole that tab targeting went. Its an old mechanic that shackled players. I could care less if its the fastest or most optimal group. Id much rather play with people playing the class they enjoy the most and want to play. Rather then feeling obligated to filling some preset need just to satisfy mechanics.
So you're fine with clerics and tank relegated to niche, mildly useless, and frankly not sought after, buffing, roles? That's very nice of you. But some people would like to see their class mechanics used in game. You're fine with 80% of the DC feats and spells being useless. Some people aren't. As long as people can self heal for so massive amounts of damage cleric characters will be catered to the quite boring buffbot role, when other classes have many possibilities offered.
I could wander in green gear and provide the same amount of "support" a 18k cleric could bring to a party. Because lifesteal can make anyone play in god mode, stand in red as long as they like, and so on. That's just relegating an entire class to the most technical and anecdotal role in game.
There are a large number of players who hate the blasted trinity, and actually like that pretty much any group with any combination of classes can succeed. They can shove the entire idea of the trinity into the same dark hole that tab targeting went. Its an old mechanic that shackled players. I could care less if its the fastest or most optimal group. Id much rather play with people playing the class they enjoy the most and want to play. Rather then feeling obligated to filling some preset need just to satisfy mechanics.
1. This game is chaining players, nobody wants TRs in their parties, Tank are not needed, so in order to make GF more desirable they gave us these insane buffs that make PvE content even worse trivialized...
2. I'm not saying that there have to be an imposed composition, but if they made the trinity composition the most optimal one, I can't see how this could be worse (I'm not trying to say that if you don't have a GF nor a DC you should die on any dungeon, even if its T1 and you are 15K GS, I'm just saying that if you don't have a DPS make the dungeon should be a lot slower, if you don't have a DC it should be very hard to survive, etc...).
3. And at the end you say... "Rather then feeling obligated to filling some preset need just to satisfy mechanics"... wat?...
If you don't have to master the mechanics and you just faceroll everything, then where is the fun?, to organize different roles and characters to complete a dungeon with organization is for me the definition of MMORPG... it's weird to me that you start to play a MMORPG and you expect to 1. Don't follow any mechanics, 2. be able to solo all the campaign and 3. faceroll everything...
1 - people who do not have the main gwf are not able to comment about this class. are historically dishonest and unreliable on this subject.
now... until the last module, a dc was fairly important in a " low geared"party (dungeon reference). for a 12/13/14k party, a dc healer is important (11k is a god).
the logic is not +dps = +Life steal. the logic is + dps = enemies dead faster, meaning I'm less time exposed to the danger. simple. here you need more challenge.
ADDITIONAL problem of the current module is logistical. cw control / damage and gf buffs (i dont know mutch about sw) have a very high radious. then you "press buttons" and need not be positioned logistically. life steal in this case is just the cherry on top.
So you're fine with clerics and tank relegated to niche, mildly useless, and frankly not sought after, buffing, roles? That's very nice of you. But some people would like to see their class mechanics used in game. You're fine with 80% of the DC feats and spells being useless. Some people aren't. As long as people can self heal for so massive amounts of damage cleric characters will be catered to the quite boring buffbot role, when other classes have many possibilities offered.
I could wander in green gear and provide the same amount of "support" a 18k cleric could bring to a party. Because lifesteal can make anyone play in god mode, stand in red as long as they like, and so on. That's just relegating an entire class to the most technical and anecdotal role in game.
then ask for buffs to bring clerics on par with temptation warlocks in healing and not nerfs on everyone else's solobility. or just wait for the rework which was said to be in a week or so.
quite frankly, righteousness needs to go. my temptation warlock can self-heal far more than any cleric can.
then ask for buffs to bring clerics on par with temptation warlocks in healing and not nerfs on everyone else's solobility. or just wait for the rework which was said to be in a week or so.
I don't mind if warlocks get more healing. The point is that people will self-heal. The cleric spells serves no point unless they're providing an absurd extra amount of damage then people may accept you. 90% of my DC character is useless, not because warlocks are better (they aren't) but because no one needs someone else to deal with incoming damage: they're self-healing. It's not rocket science, if you want healers to have a role in this game you must have people who can't indefinitely heal themselves more when they do more dps. Even healing warlocks are useless, they're healing damage people would heal with lifesteal with their next encounter.
Right now the PvE equation is: more damage dealt = more survivability. This is really, really, ridiculous and it has to go. It makes no sense if we want a balanced game with a varied gameplay.
Now i don't mind how they change lifesteal, be it by reducing your own damage when you're using life steal (which would seem logical, the more you're focusing on tanking the less damage you're supposed to do), make it proc on one target only in case of aoe damage, give it a cap, a cooldown or severe diminishing returns... As long as lifesteal remains as it is the support roles are irrelevant and no new content will offer any challenge. There's no alternative.
I agree that Life Steal makes too much right now, and I agree that Regeneration needs a buff; but I don't think Life Steal needs to leave for the sake of it.
Everything I'd do to make Regeneration be an interesting stat is making it not affected by Healing Depression. That, in my opinion, would solve everything.
There are a large number of players who hate the blasted trinity, and actually like that pretty much any group with any combination of classes can succeed. They can shove the entire idea of the trinity into the same dark hole that tab targeting went. Its an old mechanic that shackled players.
...and yet, you don't see the plain reality of how we're now even worse off with the blasted holy duo, instead of the old trinity of tank/dps/heals which at least required 3 different classes.
I could care less if its the fastest or most optimal group. Id much rather play with people playing the class they enjoy the most and want to play. Rather then feeling obligated to filling some preset need just to satisfy mechanics.
Funny how it seems that the 'preset mechanics' actually seem to offer more opportunities to a range of different classes, because I sure as heck don't see any GFs, HRs, TRs getting a job with the current 'freedom of playing the class they enjoy the most'.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
There are a large number of players who hate the blasted trinity, and actually like that pretty much any group with any combination of classes can succeed. They can shove the entire idea of the trinity into the same dark hole that tab targeting went. Its an old mechanic that shackled players. I could care less if its the fastest or most optimal group. Id much rather play with people playing the class they enjoy the most and want to play. Rather then feeling obligated to filling some preset need just to satisfy mechanics.
+1 with this. I would rather play with people who enjoy the class they are playing and run non-optimized groups than be forced into a certain restriction.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
+1 with this. I would rather play with people who enjoy the class they are playing and run non-optimized groups than be forced into a certain restriction.
Except the fact that, like it or not, this is a game with classes and set roles, not the free-build type of games like Champions Online or City of Heroes. Even in those games certain mechanics in place guaranteed every different class had something to offer -- but not in here, not in Neverwinter.
Here, in Neverwinter, we have clear distinction of roles, set forth by the archetypes devised and laid down through the lore of Dungeons and Dragons. Hence, each role is expected to be specialized in a certain direction while weak in others. The very fact that no single role, no single class is without a weakness -- like explained before -- becomes the central motivation behind forming a party with diverse roles in it.
If "optimization" in the sense you speak of simply allows a class with no weaknesses, a class fully self-sustaining to walk free, then we might as well just fekking get rid of classes in the first place. Why not Let me play a Rogue-ish Arcane Hunter Swordsman, where I can stealth and shoot bows and cast CC spells and then switch to melee mode and start swinging double-handed claymores?
Skyrim™, this ain't.
No class should be optimized as to be able to fully sustain oneself IN A PARTY CONTENT. Nobody here is saying you shouldn't be able to clear a normal, leveling quest type of game content by your self. What we're saying is there needs to be a reason for diversity when playing dungeon content, and the only reason that can ever really bring out the diversity in party formation -- is when you can't survive the game without certain roles, where every role every class here in the game has a specific purpose.
In order to achieve that, we first need a stronger, more intelligent, and more difficult dungeon design. And at the same time, we need certain factors squashed which makes it far too easy to play the game and simply steamroll the given challenge. One of those factors is life steal, the other is regen, in which case it turns the medieval fantasy character into one of those regenerating mutatns a la Marvel Comics™.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I disagree as well. The only thing I want to change/nerfed is the Damage reflect of GF. You will just be killed while you attacking them.
Correction to your less than thought out statement - You dont get killed while attacking the GF, you get killed while unloading on his Shield! Big difference, LTP.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Correction to your less than thought out statement - You dont get killed while attacking the GF, you get killed while unloading on his Shield! Big difference, LTP.
If anything they should actually nerf BOTH lifesteal AND regen. Life steal roughly down to the levels observable in PvP, and then regen nerfed in BOTH PvE AND PvP so it either ticks much slower during combat, or only works when out of combat.
Self-sustenance without mutual support should be made impossible no matter how high your defense/damage resistance is, left exclusively only to DCs.
As it is, not withstanding whether its PvE or PvP, some builds/specs are like Wolverine™ and healing factor, and thus usually makes the DC useless. It also allows warped and imbalanced parties for quick and easy dungeon runs, leaving out other classes such as GF or HR or TRs in any real roles. Ooh, I'm damaged, sprint and take a jog around the next node, or stealth and dance or little, or do the marauder's and then the Moonwalk for a bit and 50~60% of inflicted damage recovered... who needs DCs except as an insurance?
HRs boasting how they can group up mobs and wade through it with all the deflect heals, or GWFs simply going toe-to-toe against large number of mobs without flinching... yeah, this might make you feel all heroic and powerful and it is gratifying for sure, but in terms of gameplay stuff like that is abnormal, makes obsolete the role-based class distinction and party formation, and should be disallowed.
The very fact that every character, every class has some glaring weaknesses, is at the heart of the motive for making multi-class parties, hence the RPG aspect of the game. When you're so powerful as to be able to confront every situation yourself without fear of death -- then the game breaks.
That's why PvE is so danged easy and broken, and that's why nothing's ever gonna balance out the dominance of the simple GWFmeatshield + multi CW combos in PvE gameplay. The only thing that can deterr this trend is actual threat of death -- mobs more powerful, smart, and player self-heals/sustenance much weaker, so that no one or two class can simply gang up and defeat mobs with just CCs and DPS. '
For that reason, regen and lifesteal both need a nerf, even if it displeases many players.
I agree with you but remember how back in CoH the high end characters could solo everything while self healing, having cc, having aoe etc. Point is some form of self heal will always be present ( unless you play some realy hardcore RPG which specifically bans healing sept for such from a healer ) and some very geared players will benefit greatly from it. Even with a 10% lifesteal a low GS GWF wont survive PVE, even with 10% Regen a low GS GF wont survive PVP. We gotta remember that we have a small percentage of high power characters and a large number of low-mediums wwho will be seriously affected by any high end balance attempt
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Another correction - the Protectors can come close to 100% uptime but have low damage. You give one for the other. Conquerors - the ones critting you for 20K, even with Shield Talent are far from Perma Blockers and Tacticians thrive on AP gain from NOT blocking. Learn your facts before throwing your poo at other classes.
More importantly - learn to circumnavigate the "turtle" GF and apply pressure from the back.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I am going to say....I agree about Life Steal as I feel it's a very unbalanced stat currently as no class should be able to outheal a healer class or it kinda makes that class a bit pointless to play in groups. Also when you get people who are able to keep themselves alive despite the amount of damage they are taking just through life steal without the aid of a DC or SW then this also makes playing a DC a bit dull, not to mention it encourages such players to act reckless and without thought in groups cos "it's ok I have life steal...". There is also the current issue imo with life steal working off reflect allowing GFs to basically outheal the damage taken, which I feel is very unbalanced.
I would just like to see parties more dependant on the classes/roles they have in the group and not just for example a GWF or CW running into mass enemies with high life steal and being able to stay alive. This just one example of how the game does not punish those who act recklessly and without much thought in groups as the game mechanics and current balance issues let you get away with it...
I had to shorten your nonesense a bit. Enlighten us, please. If what you are saying is fact, why doesn't a GF have TREE tank spec trees? A HR? Why doesn't it have TREE damage dealer specs? Why, doesn't the DC have THREE healing specs? I could go on and on. A DC isn't even a real healer, they are supporters.
---
This may come off as a shocker, but my GF for example has 42% crit rate, not going to play it as a tank. In short: Stop trying to streamline things to your personal likings, if you don't like Neverwinter, try another mmo. I aswell as the majority of other gamers, am happy that i do not need a healer for every little dungeon/content the game has to offer.
---
A bigger diversity in character setups/specs is actually what makes Neverwinter shine, in today's BIG, BIG, pile of MMO-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> (aka.copy/paste mmorpg's.)
Buh, bye.
That's why lifesteal badly needs a rework, because currently the cleric is catered to one stupidly boring role, which is buffing. So because you're not selfish you should agree with the OP, clerics should have a viable and useful healing gameplay option and this won't happen as long as lifesteal stays as it is.
I agree that lifesteal is wack now, self heal should exist but no to the crazy numbers we have now. It should be a small help, not the main source of healing we get, or otherwise DCs and other future healers have no use.
0
onecoolscatcatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 575Arc User
edited September 2014
I consider DC my main class. I currently have 2 DCs, each with a minimum 18k GS in High Prophet armor.
DCs need a lot of tinkering, but that doesn't mean existing stats need nerfing/reworking. The two are separate. Lifesteal is fine as it currently stands. I personally have never been outhealed in a dungeon while going full healz, but DCs shouldn't bemoan lifesteal's effectiveness or SW healing. The more healing sources a party has, the more roles DCs fill. The sad fact high end PvE DCs currently only have one role isn't due to lifesteal's effectiveness, but rather poor class scaling. We all know devs are working on this. Wait and see what they come up with.
Lol, no more solo anything if they did this, if you think grinding is bad now...try with a new to lifesteal
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited September 2014
I would cut the curve in half for Lifesteal, or in other words, double the amount of points required to get each % of Lifesteal.
Right now, an easy 1000 points in Lifesteal will get you 8-9%, which is more than enough for most damage dealers to keep themselves alive without the assistance of a cleric. It basically makes "glass cannon" DPS builds the ideal meta since your survivability via lifesteal is directly proportional to the damage you do. More damage equals better survivability.
So change the curve on Lifesteal to make it require a 2000-2500 point investment to be really viable as a means of self-healing. People will have to decide if they want to give up more DPS oriented stats to achieve that higher self-sufficiency, or simply continue with DPS focused builds and then let the cleric do their job.
Right now, point for point, a small investment in Lifesteal produces a huge return. It's a bit out of whack with the other stats.
I had to shorten your nonesense a bit. Enlighten us, please. If what you are saying is fact, why doesn't a GF have TREE tank spec trees? A HR? Why doesn't it have TREE damage dealer specs? Why, doesn't the DC have THREE healing specs? I could go on and on. A DC isn't even a real healer, they are supporters.
What you're saying is that the chihuahua, St.Bernard, and the beagle are different species because they don't look much the same. Heavens, how can they ever be considered the same species when the little traits here and there manifest so differently!!
:rolleyes:
---
This may come off as a shocker, but my GF for example has 42% crit rate, not going to play it as a tank. In short: Stop trying to streamline things to your personal likings, if you don't like Neverwinter, try another mmo. I aswell as the majority of other gamers, am happy that i do not need a healer for every little dungeon/content the game has to offer.
Crock of bullshi*. How you build your offensive stats means squat in terms of role diversion.
You're happy you don't need a healer for every little dungeon content? Tell that to the DCs.
As a matter of fact, your own GF kind are currently utterly worthless in the larger picture: why the hell would anyone want to use a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-dump of a crit-oriented GF when they can simply take in a GWF or a CW which does both better DPS and better CCs? Oh of course, you've got guildie-slaves to carry you to every content?
Talk about shortsightedness, when the GF is also one of the primary classes to be utterly ignored because of easy-peasy survival in game.
A bigger diversity in character setups/specs is actually what makes Neverwinter shine, in today's BIG, BIG, pile of MMO-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> (aka.copy/paste mmorpg's.)
Its what makes GWFs and CWs shine, you dimwit. I don't see the majority of GFs, HRs, TRs and DCs shine anywhere else, do you?
Buh, bye.
Yeah, you better run.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
fusionawesomeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 121Arc User
I would cut the curve in half for Lifesteal, or in other words, double the amount of points required to get each % of Lifesteal.
Right now, an easy 1000 points in Lifesteal will get you 8-9%, which is more than enough for most damage dealers to keep themselves alive without the assistance of a cleric. It basically makes "glass cannon" DPS builds the ideal meta since your survivability via lifesteal is directly proportional to the damage you do. More damage equals better survivability.
So change the curve on Lifesteal to make it require a 2000-2500 point investment to be really viable as a means of self-healing. People will have to decide if they want to give up more DPS oriented stats to achieve that higher self-sufficiency, or simply continue with DPS focused builds and then let the cleric do their job.
Right now, point for point, a small investment in Lifesteal produces a huge return. It's a bit out of whack with the other stats.
This.
I don't agree with OP to remove LS but having it cut in half is a good idea, this suggestion makes it you have to choose where you want to focus on. And lets all be fair with 5% LS every dps class in this game would still be more then fine.
Comments
tr has many ways to avoid damage, but the problem is not thats impossible but you lose too much time avoiding enemy attacks and ranged dps just roflstomp your damage/you never get anything done.
+ im often the only melee on my gwf so its either tank the mobs or chase mobs agro''d ranged classes( and there rarely are ppl who can pull mobs off me, even gfs :P)
as a rogue, i need my life-steal. yeah, my deflect/dodges/itc can mitigate large amounts of damage but i am also taking lots of damage if i mess up even a little or my itc is on cooldown. since the new camp is throwing out mobs capable of 1-shots or at least 20k+ damage even with 36% resist, having options outside of waiting on a cleric/warlock would be nice. lostmauth spamming stalagmites on me preventing me from even meleeing til they stop or i can itc is very annoying and if i get caught once, i am chain-cc'ed for nearly my entire hp bar if i actually survive.
as a dps cleric, life-steal is actually how i solo both iwd and dragon camp. i have seen a plethora of clerics incapable of soloing or taking forever to do so while i have 0 issue and i get through it about as fast as my rogue. unstable in dragon camp though due to there being 3 mobs in ghost stories that can cause me to die so it's more of a dps/tankiness check.
i have seen almost every single gf just crumble before the might of the boss in epic shores of tuern and those who don't die generally have plenty of healers to make sure they live. once they do die or there wasn't a gf in the group, it then comes down to the dps having perfect dodge skills or the tankiest dps to solo the boss. without life-steal, any group without a healer might as well quit because pots are not gonna cover the extreme damage you are taking.
please stop asking for solo content to require actual grouping to finish and the actual group content to need specific classes in order to win.
This EXACTLY!
If you don't like the game, fine. But don't ruin it for everyone else here who enjoys it as is.
Actually, no.
Group content should requite tank, heals and enough DPS to finish the boss before it enrages and kills everyone.
Oh wait. The boss doesn't enrage if not enough dps here. The CW tanks the boss and the warlock heals and the HR is better at single target than the TR.
GG, great design, every class is desired in PvE. Not.
that's all cryptic's fault.
nerfed rogues in dps instead of perma-stealth and now anyone can keep up with a rogue in single-target dps.
bosses are generally static and/or use telegraphed attacks that are easy to avoid and thus no tank needed. tank is then relegated to a kiter for anything with mob spam. hard-hitting bosses that encourage tanks can still be defeated with skill instead. personally, i like the sense of accomplishment for beating such a boss with skill rather than the boring party composition in every game.
cleric's having single-target heals that can MISS by being slightly off the person, having to search for the person in need of healing and possibly taking too long, an aoe heal that can be immediately followed with a boss aoe covering it, and no way to heal with at-will outside of using divinity. cleric's have never been a real healer since the beginning.
I can't see how is this fair and normal as a mechanic.
So you're fine with clerics and tank relegated to niche, mildly useless, and frankly not sought after, buffing, roles? That's very nice of you. But some people would like to see their class mechanics used in game. You're fine with 80% of the DC feats and spells being useless. Some people aren't. As long as people can self heal for so massive amounts of damage cleric characters will be catered to the quite boring buffbot role, when other classes have many possibilities offered.
I could wander in green gear and provide the same amount of "support" a 18k cleric could bring to a party. Because lifesteal can make anyone play in god mode, stand in red as long as they like, and so on. That's just relegating an entire class to the most technical and anecdotal role in game.
1. This game is chaining players, nobody wants TRs in their parties, Tank are not needed, so in order to make GF more desirable they gave us these insane buffs that make PvE content even worse trivialized...
2. I'm not saying that there have to be an imposed composition, but if they made the trinity composition the most optimal one, I can't see how this could be worse (I'm not trying to say that if you don't have a GF nor a DC you should die on any dungeon, even if its T1 and you are 15K GS, I'm just saying that if you don't have a DPS make the dungeon should be a lot slower, if you don't have a DC it should be very hard to survive, etc...).
3. And at the end you say... "Rather then feeling obligated to filling some preset need just to satisfy mechanics"... wat?...
If you don't have to master the mechanics and you just faceroll everything, then where is the fun?, to organize different roles and characters to complete a dungeon with organization is for me the definition of MMORPG... it's weird to me that you start to play a MMORPG and you expect to 1. Don't follow any mechanics, 2. be able to solo all the campaign and 3. faceroll everything...
now... until the last module, a dc was fairly important in a " low geared"party (dungeon reference). for a 12/13/14k party, a dc healer is important (11k is a god).
the logic is not +dps = +Life steal. the logic is + dps = enemies dead faster, meaning I'm less time exposed to the danger. simple. here you need more challenge.
ADDITIONAL problem of the current module is logistical. cw control / damage and gf buffs (i dont know mutch about sw) have a very high radious. then you "press buttons" and need not be positioned logistically. life steal in this case is just the cherry on top.
then ask for buffs to bring clerics on par with temptation warlocks in healing and not nerfs on everyone else's solobility. or just wait for the rework which was said to be in a week or so.
quite frankly, righteousness needs to go. my temptation warlock can self-heal far more than any cleric can.
I don't mind if warlocks get more healing. The point is that people will self-heal. The cleric spells serves no point unless they're providing an absurd extra amount of damage then people may accept you. 90% of my DC character is useless, not because warlocks are better (they aren't) but because no one needs someone else to deal with incoming damage: they're self-healing. It's not rocket science, if you want healers to have a role in this game you must have people who can't indefinitely heal themselves more when they do more dps. Even healing warlocks are useless, they're healing damage people would heal with lifesteal with their next encounter.
Right now the PvE equation is: more damage dealt = more survivability. This is really, really, ridiculous and it has to go. It makes no sense if we want a balanced game with a varied gameplay.
Now i don't mind how they change lifesteal, be it by reducing your own damage when you're using life steal (which would seem logical, the more you're focusing on tanking the less damage you're supposed to do), make it proc on one target only in case of aoe damage, give it a cap, a cooldown or severe diminishing returns... As long as lifesteal remains as it is the support roles are irrelevant and no new content will offer any challenge. There's no alternative.
Everything I'd do to make Regeneration be an interesting stat is making it not affected by Healing Depression. That, in my opinion, would solve everything.
People cannot comment about GWF if it's not their main but you can comment about any other class? Yea that sounds right.
...and yet, you don't see the plain reality of how we're now even worse off with the blasted holy duo, instead of the old trinity of tank/dps/heals which at least required 3 different classes.
Funny how it seems that the 'preset mechanics' actually seem to offer more opportunities to a range of different classes, because I sure as heck don't see any GFs, HRs, TRs getting a job with the current 'freedom of playing the class they enjoy the most'.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I did not say that player of "class A" can not comment about class B.
what I'm saying can be proven with five minutes on youtube. now I'm still waiting the pvp "roar of 5 secs.
Lifesteal is amazing for PvP. Any sort of Self healing is amazing for survivability in PvP.
+1 with this. I would rather play with people who enjoy the class they are playing and run non-optimized groups than be forced into a certain restriction.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Except the fact that, like it or not, this is a game with classes and set roles, not the free-build type of games like Champions Online or City of Heroes. Even in those games certain mechanics in place guaranteed every different class had something to offer -- but not in here, not in Neverwinter.
Here, in Neverwinter, we have clear distinction of roles, set forth by the archetypes devised and laid down through the lore of Dungeons and Dragons. Hence, each role is expected to be specialized in a certain direction while weak in others. The very fact that no single role, no single class is without a weakness -- like explained before -- becomes the central motivation behind forming a party with diverse roles in it.
If "optimization" in the sense you speak of simply allows a class with no weaknesses, a class fully self-sustaining to walk free, then we might as well just fekking get rid of classes in the first place. Why not Let me play a Rogue-ish Arcane Hunter Swordsman, where I can stealth and shoot bows and cast CC spells and then switch to melee mode and start swinging double-handed claymores?
Skyrim™, this ain't.
No class should be optimized as to be able to fully sustain oneself IN A PARTY CONTENT. Nobody here is saying you shouldn't be able to clear a normal, leveling quest type of game content by your self. What we're saying is there needs to be a reason for diversity when playing dungeon content, and the only reason that can ever really bring out the diversity in party formation -- is when you can't survive the game without certain roles, where every role every class here in the game has a specific purpose.
In order to achieve that, we first need a stronger, more intelligent, and more difficult dungeon design. And at the same time, we need certain factors squashed which makes it far too easy to play the game and simply steamroll the given challenge. One of those factors is life steal, the other is regen, in which case it turns the medieval fantasy character into one of those regenerating mutatns a la Marvel Comics™.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Correction to your less than thought out statement - You dont get killed while attacking the GF, you get killed while unloading on his Shield! Big difference, LTP.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
they can have 100% uptime on their block now.....
I agree with you but remember how back in CoH the high end characters could solo everything while self healing, having cc, having aoe etc. Point is some form of self heal will always be present ( unless you play some realy hardcore RPG which specifically bans healing sept for such from a healer ) and some very geared players will benefit greatly from it. Even with a 10% lifesteal a low GS GWF wont survive PVE, even with 10% Regen a low GS GF wont survive PVP. We gotta remember that we have a small percentage of high power characters and a large number of low-mediums wwho will be seriously affected by any high end balance attempt
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Another correction - the Protectors can come close to 100% uptime but have low damage. You give one for the other. Conquerors - the ones critting you for 20K, even with Shield Talent are far from Perma Blockers and Tacticians thrive on AP gain from NOT blocking. Learn your facts before throwing your poo at other classes.
More importantly - learn to circumnavigate the "turtle" GF and apply pressure from the back.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I would just like to see parties more dependant on the classes/roles they have in the group and not just for example a GWF or CW running into mass enemies with high life steal and being able to stay alive. This just one example of how the game does not punish those who act recklessly and without much thought in groups as the game mechanics and current balance issues let you get away with it...
That's why lifesteal badly needs a rework, because currently the cleric is catered to one stupidly boring role, which is buffing. So because you're not selfish you should agree with the OP, clerics should have a viable and useful healing gameplay option and this won't happen as long as lifesteal stays as it is.
DCs need a lot of tinkering, but that doesn't mean existing stats need nerfing/reworking. The two are separate. Lifesteal is fine as it currently stands. I personally have never been outhealed in a dungeon while going full healz, but DCs shouldn't bemoan lifesteal's effectiveness or SW healing. The more healing sources a party has, the more roles DCs fill. The sad fact high end PvE DCs currently only have one role isn't due to lifesteal's effectiveness, but rather poor class scaling. We all know devs are working on this. Wait and see what they come up with.
Right now, an easy 1000 points in Lifesteal will get you 8-9%, which is more than enough for most damage dealers to keep themselves alive without the assistance of a cleric. It basically makes "glass cannon" DPS builds the ideal meta since your survivability via lifesteal is directly proportional to the damage you do. More damage equals better survivability.
So change the curve on Lifesteal to make it require a 2000-2500 point investment to be really viable as a means of self-healing. People will have to decide if they want to give up more DPS oriented stats to achieve that higher self-sufficiency, or simply continue with DPS focused builds and then let the cleric do their job.
Right now, point for point, a small investment in Lifesteal produces a huge return. It's a bit out of whack with the other stats.
What you're saying is that the chihuahua, St.Bernard, and the beagle are different species because they don't look much the same. Heavens, how can they ever be considered the same species when the little traits here and there manifest so differently!!
:rolleyes:
---
Crock of bullshi*. How you build your offensive stats means squat in terms of role diversion.
You're happy you don't need a healer for every little dungeon content? Tell that to the DCs.
As a matter of fact, your own GF kind are currently utterly worthless in the larger picture: why the hell would anyone want to use a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-dump of a crit-oriented GF when they can simply take in a GWF or a CW which does both better DPS and better CCs? Oh of course, you've got guildie-slaves to carry you to every content?
Talk about shortsightedness, when the GF is also one of the primary classes to be utterly ignored because of easy-peasy survival in game.
Its what makes GWFs and CWs shine, you dimwit. I don't see the majority of GFs, HRs, TRs and DCs shine anywhere else, do you?
Yeah, you better run.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Do you really have trouble solo anything?
Get some defense, most of you walk around with 10k power and 1k defense thats the whole point of this conversation.
This.
I don't agree with OP to remove LS but having it cut in half is a good idea, this suggestion makes it you have to choose where you want to focus on. And lets all be fair with 5% LS every dps class in this game would still be more then fine.