GF finally becomes an asset and the plz nerf brigade is out in full force. I must admit I did expect this, but it took some time for the nerf train to build up a head of steam.
This will inevitably happen to any class that gets a buff or performs well. Very few people on here are actually interested in balance, and consider any class getting stronger a direct attack on their own preferred class.
My god, people just defend the most blatantly broken stuff. Your role is a tank, you have to actually be freaking active to freaking protect your team, shock horror. Cryptic can't really balance though, not that anyone can 100%, but there's always some ridiculous mechanic. People are criticising the mechanic, not the class. How to you counter knights valor if the GF is no where near?
My god, people just defend the most blatantly broken stuff. Your role is a tank, you have to actually be freaking active to freaking protect your team, shock horror. Cryptic can't really balance though, not that anyone can 100%, but there's always some ridiculous mechanic. People are criticising the mechanic, not the class. How to you counter knights valor if the GF is no where near?
Thing is, NO ONE is defending the broken part of KV! Have you been reading the thread at all?
A GFs role is to protect the party, so how do you propose to DEFEND THE PARTY IN A GAME WHERE THE ENEMY CAN FREE TARGET shock horror?
Active?! How about blocking to mitigate the damage done to you, or take damage for your teammates until you die? Not to mention, that any enemy with even minimum IQ could and should be burning you?
Once again, no one(at least that ive seen) is defending the actual broken mechanic of it. And I quote to what devs/other players have ALREADY cited here:
In summary, ill quote what someone else has already said before, seeing as hypocritical players abound in here:
"So current KV is bad for PVP but CWs locking you and killing you in 6 seconds is WAI. Got it."
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Thing is, NO ONE is defending the broken part of KV! Have you been reading the thread at all?
A GFs role is to protect the party, so how do you propose to DEFEND THE PARTY IN A GAME WHERE THE ENEMY CAN FREE TARGET shock horror?
Active?! How about blocking to mitigate the damage done to you, or take damage for your teammates until you die? Not to mention, that any enemy with even minimum IQ could and should be burning you?
Once again, no one(at least that ive seen) is defending the actual broken mechanic of it. And I quote to what devs/other players have ALREADY cited here:
In summary, ill quote what someone else has already said before, seeing as hypocritical players abound in here:
"So current KV is bad for PVP but CWs locking you and killing you in 6 seconds is WAI. Got it."
There's people crying about the upcoming nerf when all it means is that you can't passively boost everyone from anywhere with no effort. As for defending something by stating something else is broken is silly. If there's multiple broken mechanics they should all be fixed to the best of their ability. Plus if GFs get their shield fixed and RoF fixed, I could totally see GFs being they new flavour of the month.
There's people crying about the upcoming nerf when all it means is that you can't passively boost everyone from anywhere with no effort.
Once again, most (if not all) of the people in here defending KV, aren't defending its broken mechanics. I personally care that I want it to respect LoS, and protect the party, but not everywhere throughout the entire map.
If there's multiple broken mechanics they should all be fixed to the best of their ability.
So its okay to QQ about something 1 class has, but totally okay to leave other things alone? That's not balance. That's QQ from a bias point of view(see other QQ'ers in this thread).
Plus if GFs get their shield fixed and RoF fixed, I could totally see GFs being they new flavour of the month.
The way this game is currently, I really don't think GFs will ever be FotM. That's reserved for classes that can dps so fast that tanks aren't needed. The name of the game is dps here... and GFs get outclassed in almost every instance. (wink, wink CWs/SWs/HRs)
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
So its okay to QQ about something 1 class has, but totally okay to leave other things alone? That's not balance. That's QQ from a bias point of view(see other QQ'ers in this thread).
No. I'm saying that saying you shouldn't leave ClassA alone even though SkillA is broken just because ClassB is broken, it's not a valid argument. They're both issues. Plenty of people defend their class in this way.
The way this game is currently, I really don't think GFs will ever be FotM. That's reserved for classes that can dps so fast that tanks aren't needed. The name of the game is dps here... and GFs get outclassed in almost every instance. (wink, wink CWs/SWs/HRs)
Sentinel GWFs were OP before, last module top end HRs were too due to their tankyness. GF have more hp capacity and have high defence and the same control gwfs had. Imo they can easily become OP with some tweaks like rof going through shield and being good offensively as well as supportively. Whether they do or not doesn't really matter.
And yet, when you were told BY MULTIPLE PEOPLE THAT ITS BEING FIXED TO RESPECT LOS AND RANGE, you continuously rejected the idea of KV being fine after that, until I pressed you.
Once again , :rolleyes:, I didn't assume anything. You painted a pretty picture all your own about yourself. You threw a fit at an ability you didn't understand. You QQ'ed when people opposed your view with solid facts/opinions of how the power works. You did nothing but attempt to troll in here.
If anything, you painted a picture of yourself, then tried saying "oh, that's not me, youre assuming with no basis!".
Its actually quite funny how youre trying to backtrack, and watch your words now.
By the way, and I quote:
See what you did here? You solo'ed out KV as the reason for troll comps. You didn't bring up blue dragon glyphs, or the soul puppets either. Not to mention when you did bring all 3 up, it wasn't about addressing their brokenness. That's the difference between serious discussion and QQ nerf posting.
And yet, you were judging GFs and their abilities. It was made clear(once again, you painted the picture, not anyone else) that you a)never played a GF and b)weren't being fair across all skill and gear ranges, as comparing some of the TRs own(by peoples' opinion anyway) OP encounters as lackluster in comparison to GF's. ITC is in all ways a superior encounter, so in that aspect youre right, as there is no comparison. I just brought up the fact that EVERY character has his/her own way to be OP, but you wouldn't hear that.
You've spent more time bashing people under baseless assumptions and puffing yourself up than you have actually discussing the matter at hand. Isn't THAT the very definition of trolling? I really have to stop entangling myself with trolls like you. It only leads to uninspiring off topic "your wrong and are a hater" nonsense.
The general concensus seems to be that KV is broken in PVP and that it needs to be fixed, and that hopefully will happen soon, without affecting PVE too much.
I'm not sure I agree with that completely. Why should any class get to more or less disregard positioning and proximity with a team buff?
I find it very hard to believe that the live version of KV is WAI. Likely, the devs just hadn't taken a serious look at KV all things considered, cause they got a heap of issues going on at the moment with everything released during M4. Things get buffed and nerfed all the time with little rhyme or reason, regardless of their presence on the forums.
150' range is pretty generous, not saying it should be less, not saying it shouldn't be more. I am glad to see it's not just 1x node range. One of the issues with DC is how small their AOE effects are and how difficult it is to catch a party with buffs, or enemies with debuffs, hopefully we can see improvement in this regard in M5.
Sentinel GWFs were OP before, last module top end HRs were too due to their tankyness. GF have more hp capacity and have high defence and the same control gwfs had. Imo they can easily become OP with some tweaks like rof going through shield and being good offensively as well as supportively. Whether they do or not doesn't really matter.
There is one issue that oft appears in FOTM classes however, that is speed. TR, HR, GWF, all had speed and mobility. I think people oft underestimate the importance of footwork and mobility in a class. Then again, CW is now loosely the FOTM and they are not that fast either.
You've spent more time bashing people under baseless assumptions and puffing yourself up than you have actually discussing the matter at hand.
Actually, YOUVE spent time bashing people under baseless assumptions. You want to hate, that's fine. Stop pretending that your trolling isn't trolling. Its already been stated MULTIPLE(once again, you don't read) times that people are NOT defending the brokenness of the power, but trolls like you are STILL in here hating on the power. PERIOD. If anyone's getting entangled by a troll, its not YOU, as youre the one puffing up and showing YOUR baseless assumptions on powers of classes you DONT EVEN USE.
As it stands, the only people im supposedly "bashing" are the ones who are actually "bashing" in this thread. Ive agreed with people who know the reasons that its not WAI, and arguing against the "OMFG I CANT GET AROUND THIS POWER CUZ I DONT TRY, NERF TO GROUND" players like yourself.
The general concensus seems to be that KV is broken in PVP and that it needs to be fixed, and that hopefully will happen soon, without affecting PVE too much.
Once again, why are you QQing about a power that has been stated(once again, MULTIPLE times) that's being fixed. As you refuse to read anything while posting your sad trolling attempts, the devs are already posting it being fixed to respect LoS and range.
Why should any class get to more or less disregard positioning and proximity with a team buff?
Once again :rolleyes:, this is NOT WAI, and the fixes respect this, but youre STILL in here QQing. What else can your QQing be about, when the majority of the problem is already in the works for being fixed?
I find it very hard to believe that the live version of KV is WAI. Likely, the devs just hadn't taken a serious look at KV all things considered, cause they got a heap of issues going on at the moment with everything released during M4. Things get buffed and nerfed all the time with little rhyme or reason, regardless of their presence on the forums.
Once again, no one said KV is currently WAI. Once again goes to how blind your hate goes when everyone agrees with you, and youre still QQing for the nerfbat...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I feel like a broken record at this point, but when someone posts a complaint about something, then people post how its been seen by the devs, and WILL be fixed, and youre STILL QQing about it, you lose your point in the discussion. Not to mention just ignoring other broken abilities like its alright, because it doesn't hurt you, shows bias.
Is KV broken? Yes.
Is it being fixed? Yes.
Do the players KNOW its being fixed? Yes.
Are players still QQing like its the end of the game, like it wont be fixed? Obviously yes.
Are people okay with their own OPness, and don't want another class to have any advantage? Obviously, by the looks of several people in here, yes.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I feel like a broken record at this point, but when someone posts a complaint about something, then people post how its been seen by the devs, and WILL be fixed, and youre STILL QQing about it, you lose your point in the discussion. Not to mention just ignoring other broken abilities like its alright, because it doesn't hurt you, shows bias.
Is KV broken? Yes.
Is it being fixed? Yes.
Do the players KNOW its being fixed? Yes.
Are players still QQing like its the end of the game, like it wont be fixed? Obviously yes.
Are people okay with their own OPness, and don't want another class to have any advantage? Obviously, by the looks of several people in here, yes.
You're wasting your time. There are people who are still QQing about stuff on some classes that was fixed in Mod 3, let alone stuff with an incoming fix.
Actually, YOUVE spent time bashing people under baseless assumptions. You want to hate, that's fine. Stop pretending that your trolling isn't trolling. Its already been stated MULTIPLE(once again, you don't read) times that people are NOT defending the brokenness of the power, but trolls like you are STILL in here hating on the power. PERIOD. If anyone's getting entangled by a troll, its not YOU, as youre the one puffing up and showing YOUR baseless assumptions on powers of classes you DONT EVEN USE.
As it stands, the only people im supposedly "bashing" are the ones who are actually "bashing" in this thread. Ive agreed with people who know the reasons that its not WAI, and arguing against the "OMFG I CANT GET AROUND THIS POWER CUZ I DONT TRY, NERF TO GROUND" players like yourself.
Once again, why are you QQing about a power that has been stated(once again, MULTIPLE times) that's being fixed. As you refuse to read anything while posting your sad trolling attempts, the devs are already posting it being fixed to respect LoS and range.
Once again :rolleyes:, this is NOT WAI, and the fixes respect this, but youre STILL in here QQing. What else can your QQing be about, when the majority of the problem is already in the works for being fixed?
Once again, no one said KV is currently WAI. Once again goes to how blind your hate goes when everyone agrees with you, and youre still QQing for the nerfbat...
Pretty sure no one really cares how successfully(or unsuccessfully) you insult people, or your life story as a open beta player. Perhaps it's time you take your foot out of your mouth and move somewhere else to push your personal agenda("QQ" bashing, valid or not).
I personal do not link forum posts to balancing by the devs. Using my main class as an example. People complained about shocking execution, stealth, lashing blade. Flurry was nerfed(before it started being used in PVP) SE was nerfed, lashing remain unchanged, and stealth was buffed. Don't really see how that makes any sense.
I suspect balancing is based more on X number of players in a class, and X number of players geared for PVP. Maybe I'm wrong on this and the devs are just over worked and understaffed.
Pretty sure no one really cares how successfully(or unsuccessfully) you insult people, or your life story as a open beta player. Perhaps it's time you take your foot out of your mouth and move somewhere else to push your personal agenda("QQ" bashing, valid or not).
I personal do not link forum posts to balancing by the devs. Using my main class as an example. People complained about shocking execution, stealth, lashing blade. Flurry was nerfed(before it started being used in PVP) SE was nerfed, lashing remain unchanged, and stealth was buffed. Don't really see how that makes any sense.
I suspect balancing is based more on X number of players in a class, and X number of players geared for PVP. Maybe I'm wrong on this and the devs are just over worked and understaffed.
Pretty sure your obvious trolling falls on deaf ears as its getting old anymore. No one really cares about your QQ story when the fix is already coming. Perhaps its time you learn that your pathetic trolls make you look even more pathetic.(your QQing, valid or not). Push your "TRs should kill everything else, nothing should have any strengths" agenda elsewhere, as any TR worth his salt knows that GFs are sitting ducks compared to them.
And balance can only be done with the devs go through. I know every bias player in here wants his or her own piece of the OP pie left alone, but your QQing here isn't balance. From the getgo, your agenda has NOT been about balance, as the moment somebody posted the fixes to it, your only response should've been "oh. okay, ill stop QQing now, thanks". Yet(sigh), here you still are, not only continuing the QQing, but trolling me(albeit hilariously obvious), just cuz I have differing opinions/more experience with the power being complained about.
I feel sorry for TRs. Not just players with TR mains are sad. But I don't feel sorry for someone whos QQing "wah! my class is weak, its not fair. Everyone else should be weaker than me!".
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
You're wasting your time. There are people who are still QQing about stuff on some classes that was fixed in Mod 3, let alone stuff with an incoming fix.
As you can see, ive met one of them I guess
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Pretty sure your obvious trolling falls on deaf ears as its getting old anymore. No one really cares about your QQ story when the fix is already coming. Perhaps its time you learn that your pathetic trolls make you look even more pathetic.(your QQing, valid or not). Push your "TRs should kill everything else, nothing should have any strengths" agenda elsewhere, as any perma stealthTR worth his salt knows that GFs are sitting ducks compared to them.
Fixed that for you. If you honestly believe that GFs are still easy kills for TRs, you're a bad player or haven't PvPed since M4 came out. A GF can make a mockery out of a TR unless that TR never comes out of stealth and, if that's the basis of your argument, you're essentially saying that all TRs should be perma stealth TRs which is every bit as flawed as saying that GFs should do next to no damage since they're supposed to be meat shields and not DPSers.
Personally, I think GFs should be hard for TRs to beat 1 on 1 seeing as they're the rock to TR's scissors, just like I think a CW should be hard for a GF to beat 1 on 1. I also don't think that TRs should have to be railroaded into playing perma stealth to really be effective in PvP.
As an aside, you have come off as pretty trollish in this thread, especially that part where you said that ITC needs to be nerfed if KV gets nerfed. To even try to compare these two powers suggests that you're trolling or have no clue what you're talking about.
ITC lasts 4 seconds.
KV can last indefinitely.
ITC has a base recharge around 18 seconds.
I think someone earlier in this thread said the recharge on KV is 8 seconds, less than half of ITC.
ITC affects one person.
KV affects an entire team.
ITC, unless used while stealthed, reduces incoming damage by 75%
KV effectively doubles the HP of 4 people.
I'll grant you that ITC breaks CCs and makes you immune to them... for 4 seconds and that KV doesn't but, ITC doesn't affect an entire team.
If you really want to take a look at ITC and compare it to other abilities, I think it should be compared to something that's much closer to it in how it works than KV, like block.
Block stops 80% of incoming damage, more than ITC.
Block has no cooldown.
Block makes you immune to CC.
Now, aside from the problems with it that were fixed, I think KV is fine as is and, I'm not saying that block needs to be nerfed but, if you're going to complain about ITC then, you kind of have to agree that block is pretty overpowered too and should be nerfed as well.
Any other view and you're clearly trolling.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Fixed that for you. If you honestly believe that GFs are still easy kills for TRs, you're a bad player or haven't PvPed since M4 came out. A GF can make a mockery out of a TR unless that TR never comes out of stealth and, if that's the basis of your argument, you're essentially saying that all TRs should be perma stealth TRs which is every bit as flawed as saying that GFs should do next to no damage since they're supposed to be meat shields and not DPSers.
Personally, I think GFs should be hard for TRs to beat 1 on 1 seeing as they're the rock to TR's scissors, just like I think a CW should be hard for a GF to beat 1 on 1. I also don't think that TRs should have to be railroaded into playing perma stealth to really be effective in PvP.
As an aside, you have come off as pretty trollish in this thread, especially that part where you said that ITC needs to be nerfed if KV gets nerfed. To even try to compare these two powers suggests that you're trolling or have no clue what you're talking about.
ITC lasts 4 seconds.
KV can last indefinitely.
ITC has a base recharge around 18 seconds.
I think someone earlier in this thread said the recharge on KV is 8 seconds, less than half of ITC.
ITC affects one person.
KV affects an entire team.
ITC, unless used while stealthed, reduces incoming damage by 75%
KV effectively doubles the HP of 4 people.
I'll grant you that ITC breaks CCs and makes you immune to them... for 4 seconds and that KV doesn't but, ITC doesn't affect an entire team.
If you really want to take a look at ITC and compare it to other abilities, I think it should be compared to something that's much closer to it in how it works than KV, like block.
Block stops 80% of incoming damage, more than ITC.
Block has no cooldown.
Block makes you immune to CC.
Now, aside from the problems with it that were fixed, I think KV is fine as is and, I'm not saying that block needs to be nerfed but, if you're going to complain about ITC then, you kind of have to agree that block is pretty overpowered too and should be nerfed as well.
Any other view and you're clearly trolling.
Wrong first itc can make you immune to all dmg and cc.
Second Block dont make you immune to cc there is only a smal number of encounters what can be blocked!
TR can realy fast kill GF just use your awesome dalys!
Fixed that for you. If you honestly believe that GFs are still easy kills for TRs, you're a bad player or haven't PvPed since M4 came out. A GF can make a mockery out of a TR unless that TR never comes out of stealth and, if that's the basis of your argument, you're essentially saying that all TRs should be perma stealth TRs which is every bit as flawed as saying that GFs should do next to no damage since they're supposed to be meat shields and not DPSers.
Personally, I think GFs should be hard for TRs to beat 1 on 1 seeing as they're the rock to TR's scissors, just like I think a CW should be hard for a GF to beat 1 on 1. I also don't think that TRs should have to be railroaded into playing perma stealth to really be effective in PvP.
As an aside, you have come off as pretty trollish in this thread, especially that part where you said that ITC needs to be nerfed if KV gets nerfed. To even try to compare these two powers suggests that you're trolling or have no clue what you're talking about.
ITC lasts 4 seconds.
KV can last indefinitely.
ITC has a base recharge around 18 seconds.
I think someone earlier in this thread said the recharge on KV is 8 seconds, less than half of ITC.
ITC affects one person.
KV affects an entire team.
ITC, unless used while stealthed, reduces incoming damage by 75%
KV effectively doubles the HP of 4 people.
I'll grant you that ITC breaks CCs and makes you immune to them... for 4 seconds and that KV doesn't but, ITC doesn't affect an entire team.
If you really want to take a look at ITC and compare it to other abilities, I think it should be compared to something that's much closer to it in how it works than KV, like block.
Block stops 80% of incoming damage, more than ITC.
Block has no cooldown.
Block makes you immune to CC.
Now, aside from the problems with it that were fixed, I think KV is fine as is and, I'm not saying that block needs to be nerfed but, if you're going to complain about ITC then, you kind of have to agree that block is pretty overpowered too and should be nerfed as well.
Any other view and you're clearly trolling.
Wow. Another troll enters the ring. Sigh...
Never called for a nerf to ITC. Comparing 2 encounters, and advantages to either, is not calling for a nerf, but showing the hypocrisies about a)complaining about something you know ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT, while you have OP tools in your own backyard. So, for the reading impaired, I'll explain a few things:
1)-ITC is an encounter granting(albeit short) IMMUNITY TO DAMAGE/CC
-KV is an encounter designed to take damage for your teammates
2)-ITC is almost necessary in a stealth based build, helping to build your stealth meter back up
-KV ends up hindering you, as youre forced to either block until your block is gone, or don't block and take damage until
die
3)-ITC helps the TR survive, not particularly helping teammates
-KV helps a GFs teammates survive, at the cost of his/her survivability
4)-ITC is a means to break cc, auto deflect, ignore damage(used from stealth)
-KV is a means for a GF to "take one for the team" as anyone with ANY experience should focus on the user upon seeing it
it in place
5)-ITC is almost essential for perma stealth build
-KV does NOT figure into a "perma-block" build(btw, doesn't exist)
6)-ITC whether used from stealth or not, ensures you take LESS damage
-KV ensures you take MORE damage
Now, let's look at stealth versus block mechanic:
1)-stealth is a rechargeable meter, with builds focused on making it PERMANENT
-block meter, while also backed up by feats/gear/powers, CAN NOT be made PERMANENT
2)-stealth has at least one power and one daily that almost completely fills up the meter
-block has powers that regenerate the block meter a little, but nothing completely filling it entirely
3)-stealth is a means to get away when the fights going bad, or as a surprise attack
-block is a means to take the brunt of a hit, to stand in the face of the enemy, while cutting your mobility/chance to
escape
4)-stealth is used by a class with weak armor, but perfect for being sneaky
-block is used by a class with tough armor, but said class DOES NOT have the mobility of the other
classes
5)-stealth has feats that allow a TR to run faster than normal
-block has feats that allow a GF to run ALMOST as fast as normal running speed
Now, with the fundamentals laid out before, will you STILL QQ? Both classes have their own pros/cons, but to complain about a class doing what it's engineered to do is folly.
-The TR sacrifices nothing for his/her benefit.
-The GF sacrifices his/her well-being for their teammates benefit.
Now, I'm not going to be bias like you trolls by saying "any other view is wrong", as I believe someone may have differing opinions. But your darn right that I will defend a class when a class that has powers to ensure their survival is QQing about a power that in all sense of the term is implemented to help his teammates.
EDIT:forgot a few things
-The TR(while nerfed since beta, true) offers high mobility and power
- the GF offers low mobility for its toughness, and is hard pressed to do even mediocre damage
-The TR can solo most dungeons if you go perma stealth.
-The GF, idc how well geared could NEVER solo a dungeon.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
There is one issue that oft appears in FOTM classes however, that is speed. TR, HR, GWF, all had speed and mobility. I think people oft underestimate the importance of footwork and mobility in a class. Then again, CW is now loosely the FOTM and they are not that fast either.
Yeah many players underestimate how much footwork can be useful in defense. Example: on my old CW alt i tried to slot mobility up to 1 k (just for test but you can still get a decent amount with a normal build). Bunnyhopping around gwfs and mixing it with teleports allowed me to dodge at wills with just bunnyhopping. Except good.ones, most gwfs would miss takedown just by that, and fls too. A CW right now can move like that, shield on tab, enfeeblement for debuff, ray of frost with spell storm. Bunnyhopping you avoid sure strike spam, so even if caught, your shield will absorb the damage. Mix with some teleports and severe reaction. Also bunnyhopping cause TR to lag/ rubberband a bit. There's a huge difference between a CW that moves and a CW that stand still and just teleport as soon has something gets in his/ her face. Also for trs, gwfs in a melee fight, mobility means avoiding stuns and buying time. Good gwfs move a lot and the difference from a gwf who just facetank is massive. But everyone knows this.
Gwfs got mobility, trs too, but these are melee classes. CW is a ranged controller with, currently, 5-10k procs on rof and assailant is still good enough. Enfeeblement on tab also is powerful for support. You basically can halve the strenght of the strongest enemy and watch him/ her melt. Useful against gwf.
Gfs feel ok to me. Tankier class right now. Could use a little reduction only in some of their dps but overall ok. Melees are in a bad spot right now. Let me explain: devs introduce a new ranged DPS class with very powerful DPS. Buffed archery on HR. And gave passive high DPS and buffed/changed cws making them into the new fotm easy mode class. This means you've SW massive creation, migration to CW class and most HR players able to at least go high DPS from range. You can kill all these classes but most games now see 3-4 of these classes per team. It's a ranged DPS fest where melees are gangbanged with DPS and cc quite heavily. Trs are the only ones avoiding this cause they have the biggest abiility to just avoid damage being either immune or in stealth. But for a gwf/GF it's sure though these days.
PvP imho could use a overall DPS reduction, may be buffing tenacity, and shifting passive damage burst to skill-dependent powers. Like ibs on gwf, hard hitting but requires the gwf to work for it. Takedown requires anticipation and experience. Old shard on CW tab was the same. PvP should be like that. Aim and timing.
"The TR(while nerfed since beta, true) offers high mobility and power"
This is simply not true - the TR's lack any damage in both pvp and pve - which is why no one want them in pve, also they do not move any faster than other classes - in fact their are classes that easily outrun them
"The TR(while nerfed since beta, true) offers high mobility and power"
This is simply not true - the TR's lack any damage in both pvp and pve - which is why no one want them in pve, also they do not move any faster than other classes - in fact their are classes that easily outrun them
You should at least get your facts right
Have a fun game
I had to laugh at this. Sigh... Here we go again :rolleyes:
As you've not used a TR, I'll give you a hint: with points in a certain class feat, and a certain feat, you could literally run almost as fast as a %50 mount while stealthed.
As far as damage in both pve/pvp:
Please, tell me if you're doing a dungeon that wants dps, which class would you pick? The slow, low power for high defense class, or the quicker, higher crit TR?
Once again, I used the phrase "while nerfed since beta" because TRs damage actually used to be top notch. Not to mention that I preferred the old days of TR dps'ers over permastealth. Many TRs do.
So please, if you're going to attempt to troll, at least bring a little more bark to the fight.
Get YOUR facts straight, and have a nice day.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited September 2014
Here we go with PvPers asking for nerfs that affect PvE as well.
If you nerf Knight's Valor range severely you cripple it in PvE as well.
Ehi, here's a tip to you all majestic pro pvpers from a newb pver such as myself: Stun the GF (even for 0.1 seconds). That will dispel his Knight's Valor.
Here we go with PvPers asking for nerfs that affect PvE as well.
If you nerf Knight's Valor range severely you cripple it in PvE as well.
Ehi, here's a tip to you all majestic pro pvpers from a newb pver such as myself: Stun the GF (even for 0.1 seconds). That will dispel his Knight's Valor.
This is my fear, a potential negative impact in PVE.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
This is my fear, a potential negative impact in PVE.
Yup, 150' not a huge range. Pretty easy for a team member to get out of it. I liked to use KV to build aggro on the mobs that happened to escape my other attempts. Now i fear that the range will limit this on boss fights. Will have to test in the rooms to see if the range is troublesome.
1)So, you want to talk about defending absurd mechanics, do you TR? Lets talk about an encounter that makes you immune to damage/cc/ AND the ability to break cc, combined with a class that is capable(with a certain build) to become untargetable permanently. Lets take away ITC if KV bothers you so much
Technically, you're right. You didn't ask for a nerf. You said that it should be gotten rid of all together if KV is adjusted.
Comparing 2 encounters, and advantages to either, is not calling for a nerf, but showing the hypocrisies about a)complaining about something you know ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT, while you have OP tools in your own backyard. So, for the reading impaired, I'll explain a few things:
I know that just this morning I was in a match where someone I was fighting at node 1 was being protected by KV being used by a GF that was nowhere in sight and was fighting at a completely different node. That's enough for me to say that this ability might be a bit overpowered and no amount of ad hominems thrown out by you will refute that. I also know that trying to validate KV by comparing it to ITC is a joke and shows a clear class bias on your part. If you really want to go on about ITC, Unstoppable would be a much better basis of comparison but, we both know this is just a diversionary tactic by you in an attempt to get people to talk about anything other than KV and the person you were originally discussing it with plays a TR so you were playing off of emotional investment.
2)-ITC is almost necessary in a stealth based build, helping to build your stealth meter back up
-KV ends up hindering you, as youre forced to either block until your block is gone, or don't block and take damage until
die
Actually, there are people playing perma stealth with whisperknives which doesn't even have ITC available to it and, as much as perma stealth TRs might like ITC, it's far more valuable to TRs that aren't perma stealth as without it, they have no protection from CCs at all which means instadeath if CCed thanks to a TR's low HP. You really should quit your griping about ITC. If it got nerfed, that would essentially guarantee that ALL TRs would start playing as perma stealth and those do seem to be what you actually take issue with.
3)-ITC helps the TR survive, not particularly helping teammates
-KV helps a GFs teammates survive, at the cost of his/her survivability
You really want to drive home how big a sacrifice it is for GF's to use KV, don't you? I'm surprised you're actually defending it and aren't trying to get the devs to do away with it all together in favor of something that benefits the GF instead of the team.
4)-ITC is a means to break cc, auto deflect, ignore damage(used from stealth)
-KV is a means for a GF to "take one for the team" as anyone with ANY experience should focus on the user upon seeing it
it in place
More of how big a sacrifice KV is for GFs? It's kind of hard to do anything about a GF using KV when that GF is so far away that they can't even be seen.
5)-ITC is almost essential for perma stealth build
-KV does NOT figure into a "perma-block" build(btw, doesn't exist)
It's not. It's essential for the survival of the class in PvP, unless ALL TRs start going with perma stealth builds which does seem to be what you're real issue is with TRs.
6)-ITC whether used from stealth or not, ensures you take LESS damage
-KV ensures you take MORE damage
Yes, it makes one person that can mitigate damage really well take extra damage while effectively doubling the HP of the entire rest of the team which means it's a much larger benefit than ITC. How do you not understand this?
1)-stealth is a rechargeable meter, with builds focused on making it PERMANENT
-block meter, while also backed up by feats/gear/powers, CAN NOT be made PERMANENT
Good thing too considering it can stop 80% of incoming damage. If you could make a perma block build, no one would play anything else... with the possible exception of CWs since they have the only thing that will go through block. Stealth, by the way, is actually pretty easy to deal with. Try using an AoE sometime. It's also worth pointing out that a TR has to sacrifice a lot in terms of offensive capability to get the recharge on their abilities down enough to make it viable. That's why you see so many of them with weapon enchants. Most really don't do a whole lot in terms of damage without it.
2)-stealth has at least one power and one daily that almost completely fills up the meter
-block has powers that regenerate the block meter a little, but nothing completely filling it entirely
Again, good thing that they can't. Fighting a perma stealth is annoying at times but, all it really takes is a good AoE to knock them out of their rotation or good reflexes so you can tag them when they get near you and come into view.
3)-stealth is a means to get away when the fights going bad, or as a surprise attack
-block is a means to take the brunt of a hit, to stand in the face of the enemy, while cutting your mobility/chance to
escape
You must not PvP much. Generally, GFs don't need to escape unless they're fighting a CW that's tagging them with chill from too far for them to close in before they're frozen.
4)-stealth is used by a class with weak armor, but perfect for being sneaky
-block is used by a class with tough armor, but said class DOES NOT have the mobility of the other
classes
Again, you must not PvP much. I'm sure it's got to be frustrating for GFs when someone runs away from them and they're having problems catching that person but, really, GFs don't need much mobility. All they have to do is stand on the node. The other people have to come to them because, if they don't, the GF wins by virtue of controlling the thing that decides who wins the match. If they're getting harassed by a ranged opponent, they've got teammates that can run off and kill that person that have a substantial advantage against the person they're fighting thanks to only taking half damage.
5)-stealth has feats that allow a TR to run faster than normal
-block has feats that allow a GF to run ALMOST as fast as normal running speed
TRs kind of need that. Without those abilities that you're referring to, they actually move really slowly in stealth and knocking them out of it would take nothing more than laying down a single AoE which would make stealth essentially worthless. At the same time, are you really complaining that other people have the ability to run away from the most durable class in the game? If it was otherwise, people wouldn't really be able to do much of anything against GFs as the GF would just prone and smack the hell out of them while they're face down on the ground. Also, maybe you're not aware of this but, deflect does not work when you're proned meaning that the best form of actual mitigation that a TR has doesn't even work against a GF.
Now, with the fundamentals laid out before, will you STILL QQ? Both classes have their own pros/cons, but to complain about a class doing what it's engineered to do is folly.
I haven't been QQing. I've been calling you on your bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
-The TR sacrifices nothing for his/her benefit.
-The GF sacrifices his/her well-being for their teammates benefit.
That's not actually true. Like I said earlier, a TR has to sacrifice quite a bit in terms of damage and mitigation to become perma stealth. Are you even aware of just how much recovery it takes to get the recharge rate down enough on the abilities that refill a stealth meter to even make the build viable?
But your darn right that I will defend a class when a class that has powers to ensure their survival is QQing about a power that in all sense of the term is implemented to help his teammates.
I don't think the power should be done away with all together or nerfed to the point of uselessness but, it definitely needed an adjustment and, you've done nothing at all to defend it unless you count ranting about another class as defending the one you seem to prefer. I'm honestly amazed that we've even been having this conversation considering that you don't seem to be able to grasp something that simple.
-The TR(while nerfed since beta, true) offers high mobility and power
- the GF offers low mobility for its toughness, and is hard pressed to do even mediocre damage
-The TR can solo most dungeons if you go perma stealth.
-The GF, idc how well geared could NEVER solo a dungeon.
High mobility, yeah. I'll grant you that. High power? Lulz. Not really... As far as soloing dungeons goes... Yeah. A TR can solo a dungeon if they go perma stealth which is kind of pointless considering that by the time you're strong enough to solo dungeons on a TR, you can't go solo into the ones that are worth doing, unless you're going into lower ones to farm gear for an alt, which pretty much any toon can do. There's videos of other classes duoing epic dungeons yet, I don't see you screaming about how powerful they are in this thread which only lends credence to what I said about you focusing on TRs simply because the person you were originally discussing it with plays one and you were hoping to derail by playing on emotional investment. Oh, and, by the way... There was a time when GFs could solo dungeons too.
Yup, 150' not a huge range. Pretty easy for a team member to get out of it. I liked to use KV to build aggro on the mobs that happened to escape my other attempts. Now i fear that the range will limit this on boss fights. Will have to test in the rooms to see if the range is troublesome.
That's almost double the distance of ranged DPSers and, I think that's radius, not diameter since I was fighting someone this morning in a PvP match that was being protected by KV even though the GF was too far away to even be seen so, I don't think you have to worry.
To you, troll seems to mean anyone that disagrees with you so, sure, I'll wear that label..
Nope. Many people have disagreed/had differing opinions. Its the people who(like you) who believe differing opinions are invalid, cuz theyre not yours. And I quote:
Now, to reply to your obscenely long "GF is too OP OMG PLZ NERF!!!" QQing(let's call YOU on YOUR bs, shall we?):
KV being fixed? You're still QQing about it? Check.
ITCs no risk/high reward versus KVs high risk/high reward comparison, just to show the bias in your QQing? Check.
TRs not highest on damage, but still superior to GF(once again, used to be a burst TR) and you're STILL trolling about how powerful GF is? Check.
Called out on your "most other classes are faster" bs, except that no other class can be nearly as fast as a mount(GWF/SW run out of stamina, then have no dodge basically)? Check.
Currently calling you out on your hate towards GFs, as you're QQing about a power that's not only getting fixed, but EVEN GFS ARE IN AGREEMENT ABOUT IT NOT WAI. You arguing just to hide your hate for GFs? Check.
Not hating on TRs, but stating the obvious pros/cons of both, while comparing the advantages 1 has over the other? Check.
Calling out that GFs could NEVER solo an epic(corrected, for your misunderstanding), whereas a TR can? Check(show me a vid of a GF soloing CN for example, and I'll take this back).
Showing the weaknesses in a GFs armor, and you're STILL declaring how OP an ENCOUNTER THATS GETTING FIXED TO RESPECT PVE/PVP PLAYSTYLES? Check.
Showing why a GUARDIAN FIGHTER has team powers, and why a trickster ROGUE has little to none, hence why they are picked more? Check.
Showing your bias of hating a team helper mechanic, only by showing how little a TR sacrifices, compared to what a GF sacrifices? Check.
Proving a point that a low geared TR will out damage all but a dedicated to dps GF? Check.
In summary:
The GF has their ups/downs. The game is all about the dps race, with healing/tanking taking a back seat. When I post the fundamentals about how both classes act, and you're response is "wah! He wants to nerf TR because he SHOWED THE FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCES IN HOW GF/TR work", shows YOUR class fanaticism. I guess if I'm a class fanatic for sticking up for GFs, you're 10x worse for claiming that everything else is better in just about every way.
P.S. 150' might seem large in pvp. But if it's nerfed to node size, what use does it have in pve? That's what you bias QQers end up doing. You QQ until something's easy for you, but hard for everyone else.
P.P.S. I noticed you complained about HRs/CWs not being able to burn down a GF they can't see . Does it really hurt you that much to move a little? Also, complaining about RANGED DPS NOT REACHING A SLOW MOVING TANK continues to your show off bias here. Ranged dps is superior to melee dps currently. A ranged class that can kill in 6 seconds is superior(in a face to face sense) when it can attack for a few seconds BEFORE the melee class gets their.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Nope. Many people have disagreed/had differing opinions. Its the people who(like you) who believe differing opinions are invalild, cuz theyre not yours. And I quote:
Cute. So, in addition to ad hominems, hyperbole, and emotional appeals, you're now gonna add going to add cherry picking to the list too? Here's what I actually said.
Now, aside from the problems with it that were fixed, I think KV is fine as is and, I'm not saying that block needs to be nerfed but, if you're going to complain about ITC then, you kind of have to agree that block is pretty overpowered too and should be nerfed as well.
Any other view and you're clearly trolling.
Which, at this point, it's pretty clear that you are.
But heres where I found out that the real trolls in here are just obviously here to troll. I never wanted it nerfed, never wanted ITC taken out. I just used it as an example of taking out something, just cuz it benefits the user in a way others don't like. By the way, once again for you blind trolls, youre continuing your QQ fests AFTER the devs(and other posters posted in here) that its being fixed. Youre not beating a dead horse, youre beating a horse that's getting healed with medicine to be in better racing condition for no reason at all.
Now, here's where I prove that you're full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and are just here to troll because your precious preferred class is having an ability nerfed. You see, you started in with how ITC needs to be removed if KV is adjusted in response to a comment that was made before there was any announcement of an adjustment of that ability in this thread but, that announcement was made known before you went off about how ITC needs to be removed from the game and, to top it off, you were making comments about why are they still QQing when you were quoting a comment that was posted before that adjustment to KV was made known in this thread. Due you understand concepts like causality and chain of events? Your behavior in this thread suggests you don't which is why I have to ask. If you do actually understand then, you're a pretty blatant troll. If you have another explanation for your behavior in this thread, I'd love to hear it. I'm honestly looking forward to seeing if you'll try to backpedal, admit you were trolling, or if you'll just keep plowing ahead with the same foolish bullheadedness that you've been displaying so far.
As ive already stated, ITC is a superior encounter in the sense that its a no risk/high reward maneuver, so yes(once again for the illiterate, as you are) comparing an encounter with short bursts of immunity to cc/damage is superior to one where the gfs taking damage for his team. Once again, seeing as you haven't passed reading obviously:
Actually, I can read just fine, thank you very much. It's still cute how you have to throw out an insult at every chance you get though. I'd explain to you what the type of behavior you're displaying in this thread suggests but, I'm doubtful that you'd be able to comprehend it at this point and, before you even try to comment on the irony of me repeatedly calling you stupid while pointing out your own poor behavior, I'm fully aware of it and, you've earned it. You have convinced me that KV is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> power though. I mean, the GF takes damage when they use it. What's up with that? We should start a thread asking that it be removed from the game entirely and replaced with something that has no risk to the GF. You were complaining about the movement rate of GFs in one of your earlier posts. Maybe we should ask them to replace KV with something that boosts their movement rate for 4-5 seconds. Then people wouldn't be able to run away from GFs and they wouldn't have an ability that causes them to take damage. What do you think?
And here we go again with YOUR bias, as youre clearing obviously not understanding ITC vs KV
ITC protects 1 person for 4 seconds. KV can potentially protect 4 people indefinitely, unless the enemy stuns/kills the gf, or deals damage to gf AND his teammates
Actually, I'm very aware of the differences. I'm also aware now that you don't seem to understand what the word potentially means which only lends credence to my theory that you're not all that bright. Also, doing damage to a GF or his teammates doesn't turn off KV. Don't you play one of those? You shouldn't need that pointed out to you. I thought you knew your character class but, apparently not.
And? Not all GFs run KV, and yet you don't see the hypocrisies of wanting something gone, just cuz YOU don't like it? This is actually pretty sure evidence of YOUR bias.
Wow. For someone that likes to throw around constant insults about the intellect of others, you have some serious cognitive impairments. I'm going to try to explain this to you but, have very strong doubts that you'll be able to understand based on everything you've said so far...
No one was asking for KV to be removed from the game.
People wanted the range on it cut down because it covers the entire PvP map when it's used and they want it to require that the other people on the team be in line of sight of the GF before those people can benefit from KV.
The first person in this thread to say that abilities needed to be removed entirely from the game was you.
I can't believe you actually made that last comment considering what you quoted since I expressed my opinion on KV multiple times in what you quoted but, I'll repeat them all in big bold letters just for you.
I don't think the power should be done away with all together or nerfed to the point of uselessness but, it definitely needed an adjustment and, you've done nothing at all to defend it unless you count ranting about another class as defending the one you seem to prefer. I'm honestly amazed that we've even been having this conversation considering that you don't seem to be able to grasp something that simple.
Comments
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Thing is, NO ONE is defending the broken part of KV! Have you been reading the thread at all?
A GFs role is to protect the party, so how do you propose to DEFEND THE PARTY IN A GAME WHERE THE ENEMY CAN FREE TARGET shock horror?
Active?! How about blocking to mitigate the damage done to you, or take damage for your teammates until you die? Not to mention, that any enemy with even minimum IQ could and should be burning you?
Once again, no one(at least that ive seen) is defending the actual broken mechanic of it. And I quote to what devs/other players have ALREADY cited here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?747131-Tyranny-of-Dragons-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-25-20140820a-5&p=8880141&viewfull=1#post8880141
In summary, ill quote what someone else has already said before, seeing as hypocritical players abound in here:
"So current KV is bad for PVP but CWs locking you and killing you in 6 seconds is WAI. Got it."
There's people crying about the upcoming nerf when all it means is that you can't passively boost everyone from anywhere with no effort. As for defending something by stating something else is broken is silly. If there's multiple broken mechanics they should all be fixed to the best of their ability. Plus if GFs get their shield fixed and RoF fixed, I could totally see GFs being they new flavour of the month.
Once again, most (if not all) of the people in here defending KV, aren't defending its broken mechanics. I personally care that I want it to respect LoS, and protect the party, but not everywhere throughout the entire map.
So its okay to QQ about something 1 class has, but totally okay to leave other things alone? That's not balance. That's QQ from a bias point of view(see other QQ'ers in this thread).
The way this game is currently, I really don't think GFs will ever be FotM. That's reserved for classes that can dps so fast that tanks aren't needed. The name of the game is dps here... and GFs get outclassed in almost every instance. (wink, wink CWs/SWs/HRs)
Sentinel GWFs were OP before, last module top end HRs were too due to their tankyness. GF have more hp capacity and have high defence and the same control gwfs had. Imo they can easily become OP with some tweaks like rof going through shield and being good offensively as well as supportively. Whether they do or not doesn't really matter.
You've spent more time bashing people under baseless assumptions and puffing yourself up than you have actually discussing the matter at hand. Isn't THAT the very definition of trolling? I really have to stop entangling myself with trolls like you. It only leads to uninspiring off topic "your wrong and are a hater" nonsense.
The general concensus seems to be that KV is broken in PVP and that it needs to be fixed, and that hopefully will happen soon, without affecting PVE too much.
I'm not sure I agree with that completely. Why should any class get to more or less disregard positioning and proximity with a team buff?
I find it very hard to believe that the live version of KV is WAI. Likely, the devs just hadn't taken a serious look at KV all things considered, cause they got a heap of issues going on at the moment with everything released during M4. Things get buffed and nerfed all the time with little rhyme or reason, regardless of their presence on the forums.
150' range is pretty generous, not saying it should be less, not saying it shouldn't be more. I am glad to see it's not just 1x node range. One of the issues with DC is how small their AOE effects are and how difficult it is to catch a party with buffs, or enemies with debuffs, hopefully we can see improvement in this regard in M5.
There is one issue that oft appears in FOTM classes however, that is speed. TR, HR, GWF, all had speed and mobility. I think people oft underestimate the importance of footwork and mobility in a class. Then again, CW is now loosely the FOTM and they are not that fast either.
Actually, YOUVE spent time bashing people under baseless assumptions. You want to hate, that's fine. Stop pretending that your trolling isn't trolling. Its already been stated MULTIPLE(once again, you don't read) times that people are NOT defending the brokenness of the power, but trolls like you are STILL in here hating on the power. PERIOD. If anyone's getting entangled by a troll, its not YOU, as youre the one puffing up and showing YOUR baseless assumptions on powers of classes you DONT EVEN USE.
As it stands, the only people im supposedly "bashing" are the ones who are actually "bashing" in this thread. Ive agreed with people who know the reasons that its not WAI, and arguing against the "OMFG I CANT GET AROUND THIS POWER CUZ I DONT TRY, NERF TO GROUND" players like yourself.
Once again, why are you QQing about a power that has been stated(once again, MULTIPLE times) that's being fixed. As you refuse to read anything while posting your sad trolling attempts, the devs are already posting it being fixed to respect LoS and range.
Once again :rolleyes:, this is NOT WAI, and the fixes respect this, but youre STILL in here QQing. What else can your QQing be about, when the majority of the problem is already in the works for being fixed?
Once again, no one said KV is currently WAI. Once again goes to how blind your hate goes when everyone agrees with you, and youre still QQing for the nerfbat...
Is KV broken? Yes.
Is it being fixed? Yes.
Do the players KNOW its being fixed? Yes.
Are players still QQing like its the end of the game, like it wont be fixed? Obviously yes.
Are people okay with their own OPness, and don't want another class to have any advantage? Obviously, by the looks of several people in here, yes.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Pretty sure no one really cares how successfully(or unsuccessfully) you insult people, or your life story as a open beta player. Perhaps it's time you take your foot out of your mouth and move somewhere else to push your personal agenda("QQ" bashing, valid or not).
I personal do not link forum posts to balancing by the devs. Using my main class as an example. People complained about shocking execution, stealth, lashing blade. Flurry was nerfed(before it started being used in PVP) SE was nerfed, lashing remain unchanged, and stealth was buffed. Don't really see how that makes any sense.
I suspect balancing is based more on X number of players in a class, and X number of players geared for PVP. Maybe I'm wrong on this and the devs are just over worked and understaffed.
Pretty sure your obvious trolling falls on deaf ears as its getting old anymore. No one really cares about your QQ story when the fix is already coming. Perhaps its time you learn that your pathetic trolls make you look even more pathetic.(your QQing, valid or not). Push your "TRs should kill everything else, nothing should have any strengths" agenda elsewhere, as any TR worth his salt knows that GFs are sitting ducks compared to them.
And balance can only be done with the devs go through. I know every bias player in here wants his or her own piece of the OP pie left alone, but your QQing here isn't balance. From the getgo, your agenda has NOT been about balance, as the moment somebody posted the fixes to it, your only response should've been "oh. okay, ill stop QQing now, thanks". Yet(sigh), here you still are, not only continuing the QQing, but trolling me(albeit hilariously obvious), just cuz I have differing opinions/more experience with the power being complained about.
I feel sorry for TRs. Not just players with TR mains are sad. But I don't feel sorry for someone whos QQing "wah! my class is weak, its not fair. Everyone else should be weaker than me!".
As you can see, ive met one of them I guess
Fixed that for you. If you honestly believe that GFs are still easy kills for TRs, you're a bad player or haven't PvPed since M4 came out. A GF can make a mockery out of a TR unless that TR never comes out of stealth and, if that's the basis of your argument, you're essentially saying that all TRs should be perma stealth TRs which is every bit as flawed as saying that GFs should do next to no damage since they're supposed to be meat shields and not DPSers.
Personally, I think GFs should be hard for TRs to beat 1 on 1 seeing as they're the rock to TR's scissors, just like I think a CW should be hard for a GF to beat 1 on 1. I also don't think that TRs should have to be railroaded into playing perma stealth to really be effective in PvP.
As an aside, you have come off as pretty trollish in this thread, especially that part where you said that ITC needs to be nerfed if KV gets nerfed. To even try to compare these two powers suggests that you're trolling or have no clue what you're talking about.
ITC lasts 4 seconds.
KV can last indefinitely.
ITC has a base recharge around 18 seconds.
I think someone earlier in this thread said the recharge on KV is 8 seconds, less than half of ITC.
ITC affects one person.
KV affects an entire team.
ITC, unless used while stealthed, reduces incoming damage by 75%
KV effectively doubles the HP of 4 people.
I'll grant you that ITC breaks CCs and makes you immune to them... for 4 seconds and that KV doesn't but, ITC doesn't affect an entire team.
If you really want to take a look at ITC and compare it to other abilities, I think it should be compared to something that's much closer to it in how it works than KV, like block.
Block stops 80% of incoming damage, more than ITC.
Block has no cooldown.
Block makes you immune to CC.
Now, aside from the problems with it that were fixed, I think KV is fine as is and, I'm not saying that block needs to be nerfed but, if you're going to complain about ITC then, you kind of have to agree that block is pretty overpowered too and should be nerfed as well.
Any other view and you're clearly trolling.
Wrong first itc can make you immune to all dmg and cc.
Second Block dont make you immune to cc there is only a smal number of encounters what can be blocked!
TR can realy fast kill GF just use your awesome dalys!
He said: "ITC, unless used while stealthed, reduces incoming damage by 75%"
Wow. Another troll enters the ring. Sigh...
Never called for a nerf to ITC. Comparing 2 encounters, and advantages to either, is not calling for a nerf, but showing the hypocrisies about a)complaining about something you know ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT, while you have OP tools in your own backyard. So, for the reading impaired, I'll explain a few things:
1)-ITC is an encounter granting(albeit short) IMMUNITY TO DAMAGE/CC
-KV is an encounter designed to take damage for your teammates
2)-ITC is almost necessary in a stealth based build, helping to build your stealth meter back up
-KV ends up hindering you, as youre forced to either block until your block is gone, or don't block and take damage until
die
3)-ITC helps the TR survive, not particularly helping teammates
-KV helps a GFs teammates survive, at the cost of his/her survivability
4)-ITC is a means to break cc, auto deflect, ignore damage(used from stealth)
-KV is a means for a GF to "take one for the team" as anyone with ANY experience should focus on the user upon seeing it
it in place
5)-ITC is almost essential for perma stealth build
-KV does NOT figure into a "perma-block" build(btw, doesn't exist)
6)-ITC whether used from stealth or not, ensures you take LESS damage
-KV ensures you take MORE damage
Now, let's look at stealth versus block mechanic:
1)-stealth is a rechargeable meter, with builds focused on making it PERMANENT
-block meter, while also backed up by feats/gear/powers, CAN NOT be made PERMANENT
2)-stealth has at least one power and one daily that almost completely fills up the meter
-block has powers that regenerate the block meter a little, but nothing completely filling it entirely
3)-stealth is a means to get away when the fights going bad, or as a surprise attack
-block is a means to take the brunt of a hit, to stand in the face of the enemy, while cutting your mobility/chance to
escape
4)-stealth is used by a class with weak armor, but perfect for being sneaky
-block is used by a class with tough armor, but said class DOES NOT have the mobility of the other
classes
5)-stealth has feats that allow a TR to run faster than normal
-block has feats that allow a GF to run ALMOST as fast as normal running speed
Now, with the fundamentals laid out before, will you STILL QQ? Both classes have their own pros/cons, but to complain about a class doing what it's engineered to do is folly.
-The TR sacrifices nothing for his/her benefit.
-The GF sacrifices his/her well-being for their teammates benefit.
Now, I'm not going to be bias like you trolls by saying "any other view is wrong", as I believe someone may have differing opinions. But your darn right that I will defend a class when a class that has powers to ensure their survival is QQing about a power that in all sense of the term is implemented to help his teammates.
EDIT:forgot a few things
-The TR(while nerfed since beta, true) offers high mobility and power
- the GF offers low mobility for its toughness, and is hard pressed to do even mediocre damage
-The TR can solo most dungeons if you go perma stealth.
-The GF, idc how well geared could NEVER solo a dungeon.
Yeah many players underestimate how much footwork can be useful in defense. Example: on my old CW alt i tried to slot mobility up to 1 k (just for test but you can still get a decent amount with a normal build). Bunnyhopping around gwfs and mixing it with teleports allowed me to dodge at wills with just bunnyhopping. Except good.ones, most gwfs would miss takedown just by that, and fls too. A CW right now can move like that, shield on tab, enfeeblement for debuff, ray of frost with spell storm. Bunnyhopping you avoid sure strike spam, so even if caught, your shield will absorb the damage. Mix with some teleports and severe reaction. Also bunnyhopping cause TR to lag/ rubberband a bit. There's a huge difference between a CW that moves and a CW that stand still and just teleport as soon has something gets in his/ her face. Also for trs, gwfs in a melee fight, mobility means avoiding stuns and buying time. Good gwfs move a lot and the difference from a gwf who just facetank is massive. But everyone knows this.
Gwfs got mobility, trs too, but these are melee classes. CW is a ranged controller with, currently, 5-10k procs on rof and assailant is still good enough. Enfeeblement on tab also is powerful for support. You basically can halve the strenght of the strongest enemy and watch him/ her melt. Useful against gwf.
Gfs feel ok to me. Tankier class right now. Could use a little reduction only in some of their dps but overall ok. Melees are in a bad spot right now. Let me explain: devs introduce a new ranged DPS class with very powerful DPS. Buffed archery on HR. And gave passive high DPS and buffed/changed cws making them into the new fotm easy mode class. This means you've SW massive creation, migration to CW class and most HR players able to at least go high DPS from range. You can kill all these classes but most games now see 3-4 of these classes per team. It's a ranged DPS fest where melees are gangbanged with DPS and cc quite heavily. Trs are the only ones avoiding this cause they have the biggest abiility to just avoid damage being either immune or in stealth. But for a gwf/GF it's sure though these days.
PvP imho could use a overall DPS reduction, may be buffing tenacity, and shifting passive damage burst to skill-dependent powers. Like ibs on gwf, hard hitting but requires the gwf to work for it. Takedown requires anticipation and experience. Old shard on CW tab was the same. PvP should be like that. Aim and timing.
This is simply not true - the TR's lack any damage in both pvp and pve - which is why no one want them in pve, also they do not move any faster than other classes - in fact their are classes that easily outrun them
You should at least get your facts right
Have a fun game
I had to laugh at this. Sigh... Here we go again :rolleyes:
As you've not used a TR, I'll give you a hint: with points in a certain class feat, and a certain feat, you could literally run almost as fast as a %50 mount while stealthed.
As far as damage in both pve/pvp:
Please, tell me if you're doing a dungeon that wants dps, which class would you pick? The slow, low power for high defense class, or the quicker, higher crit TR?
Once again, I used the phrase "while nerfed since beta" because TRs damage actually used to be top notch. Not to mention that I preferred the old days of TR dps'ers over permastealth. Many TRs do.
So please, if you're going to attempt to troll, at least bring a little more bark to the fight.
Get YOUR facts straight, and have a nice day.
If you nerf Knight's Valor range severely you cripple it in PvE as well.
Ehi, here's a tip to you all majestic pro pvpers from a newb pver such as myself: Stun the GF (even for 0.1 seconds). That will dispel his Knight's Valor.
This is my fear, a potential negative impact in PVE.
Yup, 150' not a huge range. Pretty easy for a team member to get out of it. I liked to use KV to build aggro on the mobs that happened to escape my other attempts. Now i fear that the range will limit this on boss fights. Will have to test in the rooms to see if the range is troublesome.
Technically, you're right. You didn't ask for a nerf. You said that it should be gotten rid of all together if KV is adjusted. I know that just this morning I was in a match where someone I was fighting at node 1 was being protected by KV being used by a GF that was nowhere in sight and was fighting at a completely different node. That's enough for me to say that this ability might be a bit overpowered and no amount of ad hominems thrown out by you will refute that. I also know that trying to validate KV by comparing it to ITC is a joke and shows a clear class bias on your part. If you really want to go on about ITC, Unstoppable would be a much better basis of comparison but, we both know this is just a diversionary tactic by you in an attempt to get people to talk about anything other than KV and the person you were originally discussing it with plays a TR so you were playing off of emotional investment.
Such a flawed comparison...
ITC protects 1 person for 4 seconds. KV can potentially protect 4 people indefinitely.
Actually, there are people playing perma stealth with whisperknives which doesn't even have ITC available to it and, as much as perma stealth TRs might like ITC, it's far more valuable to TRs that aren't perma stealth as without it, they have no protection from CCs at all which means instadeath if CCed thanks to a TR's low HP. You really should quit your griping about ITC. If it got nerfed, that would essentially guarantee that ALL TRs would start playing as perma stealth and those do seem to be what you actually take issue with.
You really want to drive home how big a sacrifice it is for GF's to use KV, don't you? I'm surprised you're actually defending it and aren't trying to get the devs to do away with it all together in favor of something that benefits the GF instead of the team.
More of how big a sacrifice KV is for GFs? It's kind of hard to do anything about a GF using KV when that GF is so far away that they can't even be seen.
It's not. It's essential for the survival of the class in PvP, unless ALL TRs start going with perma stealth builds which does seem to be what you're real issue is with TRs.
Yes, it makes one person that can mitigate damage really well take extra damage while effectively doubling the HP of the entire rest of the team which means it's a much larger benefit than ITC. How do you not understand this?
Ah... to the root of your fears and hatred: stealth.
Good thing too considering it can stop 80% of incoming damage. If you could make a perma block build, no one would play anything else... with the possible exception of CWs since they have the only thing that will go through block. Stealth, by the way, is actually pretty easy to deal with. Try using an AoE sometime. It's also worth pointing out that a TR has to sacrifice a lot in terms of offensive capability to get the recharge on their abilities down enough to make it viable. That's why you see so many of them with weapon enchants. Most really don't do a whole lot in terms of damage without it.
Again, good thing that they can't. Fighting a perma stealth is annoying at times but, all it really takes is a good AoE to knock them out of their rotation or good reflexes so you can tag them when they get near you and come into view.
You must not PvP much. Generally, GFs don't need to escape unless they're fighting a CW that's tagging them with chill from too far for them to close in before they're frozen.
Again, you must not PvP much. I'm sure it's got to be frustrating for GFs when someone runs away from them and they're having problems catching that person but, really, GFs don't need much mobility. All they have to do is stand on the node. The other people have to come to them because, if they don't, the GF wins by virtue of controlling the thing that decides who wins the match. If they're getting harassed by a ranged opponent, they've got teammates that can run off and kill that person that have a substantial advantage against the person they're fighting thanks to only taking half damage.
TRs kind of need that. Without those abilities that you're referring to, they actually move really slowly in stealth and knocking them out of it would take nothing more than laying down a single AoE which would make stealth essentially worthless. At the same time, are you really complaining that other people have the ability to run away from the most durable class in the game? If it was otherwise, people wouldn't really be able to do much of anything against GFs as the GF would just prone and smack the hell out of them while they're face down on the ground. Also, maybe you're not aware of this but, deflect does not work when you're proned meaning that the best form of actual mitigation that a TR has doesn't even work against a GF.
I haven't been QQing. I've been calling you on your bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
That's not actually true. Like I said earlier, a TR has to sacrifice quite a bit in terms of damage and mitigation to become perma stealth. Are you even aware of just how much recovery it takes to get the recharge rate down enough on the abilities that refill a stealth meter to even make the build viable?
Actually, that's exactly what you've been doing with a healthy dose of ad hominems, emotional appeals, and hyperbole thrown in for good measure.
I don't think the power should be done away with all together or nerfed to the point of uselessness but, it definitely needed an adjustment and, you've done nothing at all to defend it unless you count ranting about another class as defending the one you seem to prefer. I'm honestly amazed that we've even been having this conversation considering that you don't seem to be able to grasp something that simple.
High mobility, yeah. I'll grant you that. High power? Lulz. Not really... As far as soloing dungeons goes... Yeah. A TR can solo a dungeon if they go perma stealth which is kind of pointless considering that by the time you're strong enough to solo dungeons on a TR, you can't go solo into the ones that are worth doing, unless you're going into lower ones to farm gear for an alt, which pretty much any toon can do. There's videos of other classes duoing epic dungeons yet, I don't see you screaming about how powerful they are in this thread which only lends credence to what I said about you focusing on TRs simply because the person you were originally discussing it with plays one and you were hoping to derail by playing on emotional investment. Oh, and, by the way... There was a time when GFs could solo dungeons too.
Nope. Many people have disagreed/had differing opinions. Its the people who(like you) who believe differing opinions are invalid, cuz theyre not yours. And I quote:
Now, to reply to your obscenely long "GF is too OP OMG PLZ NERF!!!" QQing(let's call YOU on YOUR bs, shall we?):
KV being fixed? You're still QQing about it? Check.
ITCs no risk/high reward versus KVs high risk/high reward comparison, just to show the bias in your QQing? Check.
TRs not highest on damage, but still superior to GF(once again, used to be a burst TR) and you're STILL trolling about how powerful GF is? Check.
Called out on your "most other classes are faster" bs, except that no other class can be nearly as fast as a mount(GWF/SW run out of stamina, then have no dodge basically)? Check.
Currently calling you out on your hate towards GFs, as you're QQing about a power that's not only getting fixed, but EVEN GFS ARE IN AGREEMENT ABOUT IT NOT WAI. You arguing just to hide your hate for GFs? Check.
Not hating on TRs, but stating the obvious pros/cons of both, while comparing the advantages 1 has over the other? Check.
Calling out that GFs could NEVER solo an epic(corrected, for your misunderstanding), whereas a TR can? Check(show me a vid of a GF soloing CN for example, and I'll take this back).
Showing the weaknesses in a GFs armor, and you're STILL declaring how OP an ENCOUNTER THATS GETTING FIXED TO RESPECT PVE/PVP PLAYSTYLES? Check.
Showing why a GUARDIAN FIGHTER has team powers, and why a trickster ROGUE has little to none, hence why they are picked more? Check.
Showing your bias of hating a team helper mechanic, only by showing how little a TR sacrifices, compared to what a GF sacrifices? Check.
Proving a point that a low geared TR will out damage all but a dedicated to dps GF? Check.
In summary:
The GF has their ups/downs. The game is all about the dps race, with healing/tanking taking a back seat. When I post the fundamentals about how both classes act, and you're response is "wah! He wants to nerf TR because he SHOWED THE FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCES IN HOW GF/TR work", shows YOUR class fanaticism. I guess if I'm a class fanatic for sticking up for GFs, you're 10x worse for claiming that everything else is better in just about every way.
P.S. 150' might seem large in pvp. But if it's nerfed to node size, what use does it have in pve? That's what you bias QQers end up doing. You QQ until something's easy for you, but hard for everyone else.
P.P.S. I noticed you complained about HRs/CWs not being able to burn down a GF they can't see
Now, aside from the problems with it that were fixed, I think KV is fine as is and, I'm not saying that block needs to be nerfed but, if you're going to complain about ITC then, you kind of have to agree that block is pretty overpowered too and should be nerfed as well.
Any other view and you're clearly trolling.
Which, at this point, it's pretty clear that you are.
Now, here's where I prove that you're full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and are just here to troll because your precious preferred class is having an ability nerfed. You see, you started in with how ITC needs to be removed if KV is adjusted in response to a comment that was made before there was any announcement of an adjustment of that ability in this thread but, that announcement was made known before you went off about how ITC needs to be removed from the game and, to top it off, you were making comments about why are they still QQing when you were quoting a comment that was posted before that adjustment to KV was made known in this thread. Due you understand concepts like causality and chain of events? Your behavior in this thread suggests you don't which is why I have to ask. If you do actually understand then, you're a pretty blatant troll. If you have another explanation for your behavior in this thread, I'd love to hear it. I'm honestly looking forward to seeing if you'll try to backpedal, admit you were trolling, or if you'll just keep plowing ahead with the same foolish bullheadedness that you've been displaying so far.
Actually, I can read just fine, thank you very much. It's still cute how you have to throw out an insult at every chance you get though. I'd explain to you what the type of behavior you're displaying in this thread suggests but, I'm doubtful that you'd be able to comprehend it at this point and, before you even try to comment on the irony of me repeatedly calling you stupid while pointing out your own poor behavior, I'm fully aware of it and, you've earned it. You have convinced me that KV is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> power though. I mean, the GF takes damage when they use it. What's up with that? We should start a thread asking that it be removed from the game entirely and replaced with something that has no risk to the GF. You were complaining about the movement rate of GFs in one of your earlier posts. Maybe we should ask them to replace KV with something that boosts their movement rate for 4-5 seconds. Then people wouldn't be able to run away from GFs and they wouldn't have an ability that causes them to take damage. What do you think?
Actually, I'm very aware of the differences. I'm also aware now that you don't seem to understand what the word potentially means which only lends credence to my theory that you're not all that bright. Also, doing damage to a GF or his teammates doesn't turn off KV. Don't you play one of those? You shouldn't need that pointed out to you. I thought you knew your character class but, apparently not.
Wow. For someone that likes to throw around constant insults about the intellect of others, you have some serious cognitive impairments. I'm going to try to explain this to you but, have very strong doubts that you'll be able to understand based on everything you've said so far...
No one was asking for KV to be removed from the game.
People wanted the range on it cut down because it covers the entire PvP map when it's used and they want it to require that the other people on the team be in line of sight of the GF before those people can benefit from KV.
The first person in this thread to say that abilities needed to be removed entirely from the game was you.
I can't believe you actually made that last comment considering what you quoted since I expressed my opinion on KV multiple times in what you quoted but, I'll repeat them all in big bold letters just for you.
I don't think the power should be done away with all together or nerfed to the point of uselessness but, it definitely needed an adjustment and, you've done nothing at all to defend it unless you count ranting about another class as defending the one you seem to prefer. I'm honestly amazed that we've even been having this conversation considering that you don't seem to be able to grasp something that simple.
Do you get it yet?