After a few more games, PvP now seems like a FPS fest with people melting crazy fast from huge ranged DPS. Be it a HR archer, or CWs (one CW, not even much geared, was sitting on upper ground melting my team in 3-4 seconds...), all devs did to reduce spike damage through tenacity, has gone to hell. Feels very much like old PvP pre-tene nerf. CWs sitting on top of this ranged DPS madness.
GWF destroyer way too squishy. No matter how you sprint. Would rather see Destro damage toned down a bit and tankyness increased a bit. I mean that's pretty basic that even a DPS fighter build should win a facetanking contest against a ranged DPS squishy class. Not the case anymore.
PvP still very far from balanced. My first impressions so far:
1) CCW/ ConTROLL Wizard--> first NWO demigod in Mod4, just need the right build
2) GF--> pretty much, module 3 GWF or pre-nerf GF before module 1. High survivability, high DPS.
3) HR--> still pretty survivable and very high DPS
3) TR--> still semi-perma being one of the strongest assets/ point holder on enemy base, if in the hands of a skilled player
4) GWF--> pretty much what CWs were in module 2-3
5) SW--> only met one, nice DPS but seemed easy to catch and kill
6) DC--> well... uhm... i feel bad for you guys. Seriously. GWFs and SW at least have DPS to kill here and there. The ranged DPS and CC storm must hit you pretty hard cause in all the matches i played, you were more often at the campfire than on the field.
This is on pug PvP after few games. I'm not considering lame GWF builds to get unkillable running around with a wet noodle for weapon, or using bugged enchants or lame tenes to passively kill enemies...
BTW, Destro GWF is a blast to play in PvP now. Needs probably a bit more base survivability, just a bit, but very fun. Need to play smart, hit and run, and you're pretty much always playing on the edge. One mistake, you're pretty much dead by CC/ ranged DPS. Feels like my old CW alt in module 2, but melee hit and run instead of ranged. Sprint still feels not responsive/ precise enough compared to other dodge moves.
Well, I had some fun but now it seems the Blue Dragon Glyphs are all the rage. I don't really see myself getting one so I guess I'll have to sit out PVP until it's fixed. Right now the game is basically over before it begins if someone has one.
Let's NOT keep nerfing classes all for the sake of PvP. More people play PvE anyway (polls have proven that fact), but the PvPer are definitely the biggest complainers - fact supported by forum content.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Let's NOT keep nerfing classes all for the sake of PvP. More people play PvE anyway (polls have proven that fact), but the PvPer are definitely the biggest complainers - fact supported by forum content.
Many issues can be solved just making powers work differently on mobs and on players. Balance in PvP can be achieved without affecting PvE, and vice-versa.
It's just that the devs like to mess things up.
Plus while in PvE all are on the same side, in PvP it's more noticeable if gear or powers are bugged or OP. But asking for fixes in PvP does not mean PvE must be affected. I play both and i think devs must just make powers and feats work differently in PvE and PvP.
The way they did with tenacity introduction to try and limit regeneration and life steal in PvP, while they're not affected in PvE.
Different is when a class is OP in PvE like CWs since ages. There, they need a huge tone down cause they now went from being greatly OP in PvE to being demigods in PvE and PvP.
Many issues can be solved just making powers work differently on mobs and on players. Balance in PvP can be achieved without affecting PvE, and vice-versa.
It's just that the devs like to mess things up.
Plus while in PvE all are on the same side, in PvP it's more noticeable if gear or powers are bugged or OP. But asking for fixes in PvP does not mean PvE must be affected. I play both and i think devs must just make powers and feats work differently in PvE and PvP.
The way they did with tenacity introduction to try and limit regeneration and life steal in PvP, while they're not affected in PvE.
Different is when a class is OP in PvE like CWs since ages. There, they need a huge tone down cause they now went from being greatly OP in PvE to being demigods in PvE and PvP.
Hope they fix everything soon...
That is a good point - the Devs should simply modify content in PvP for better balance there without affecting PvE playability.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I take back what I said about GWFs being bad, just had a game with a really good one I couldn't take on my CW. I think he was Sent because he was tanky as hell.
My problem is I can never get hits on them, and when I do it's in ITC so it's deflected/no-CC.
If you really want to go with bile, steal time and icy terrain are not the answer. You will stall a good TR that way, but you won't kill him. You need burst to kill a TR, when he pops out of stealth. Steal time adds 4 wep procs and a slow effect with the spam-cancel method, and that just isn't enough to pull a rogue from stealth. Even if you are able to fight equally against a TR with bile + passive aoes, that fight will likely take a long time, meanwhile your team lost one of it's most potent offensive classes.
Speaking from experience, Icy rays, ray of enfeeble, COI, and most especially oppressive force are your best weapons if you want to KILL a TR. Having been on the receiving end of it COI, especially in conjunction with bile is probably the most effective stealth burn a spell storm CW has.
One thing you have to keep in mind is that a perma TR controls every fight he comes into. In a game of chess, he makes the first move. Anticipation and controlled chaos are the two key factors in a rogue vs CW fight on both offensive and defensive sides of the coin. Once one side becomes predictable, the fight is all but decided. In other words If the CW falls into patterns, both in attack and movement, the Tr will connect with his damage and avoid yours. If on the other hand the TR becomes predictable with his attacks and movement, then it's just a matter of you pouncing on the timing to bring him down. This is what makes oppressive force so effective, a TR will never see it coming, when you do use it however, make sure he is nearby and his ITC is on cooldown
TBH, these days CRIT dots and assailing force are eating my stealth as much as bile ever did. So unless you are using COI I wouldn't bother switching out.
As a CW I hate the new PVP. Skill no longer determines if you win, it's just a numbers game. If you have 2 CWs on a point and they have less you will win. If you run onto a point with 2 CWs on it by yourself you are going to die. If you run to a point with 0 CWs on your probably going to kill everyone on the point before they can kill you, or at least force them all to chase you around off the point. And finally if you get one CW vs another CW the first person to hit the other person is probably going to win, because you just stay frozen until you die and can't even get a teleport off to get away now. The immunity window on dodges isn't working against entangle or freezing, so there is no opportunity to react and have your decisions impact the outcome of a fight. It's over the second it starts.
If you really want to go with bile, steal time and icy terrain are not the answer. You will stall a good TR that way, but you won't kill him. You need burst to kill a TR, when he pops out of stealth. Steal time adds 4 wep procs and a slow effect with the spam-cancel method, and that just isn't enough to pull a rogue from stealth. Even if you are able to fight equally against a TR with bile + passive aoes, that fight will likely take a long time, meanwhile your team lost one of it's most potent offensive classes.
Speaking from experience, Icy rays, ray of enfeeble, COI, and most especially oppressive force are your best weapons if you want to KILL a TR. Having been on the receiving end of it COI, especially in conjunction with bile is probably the most effective stealth burn a spell storm CW has.
One thing you have to keep in mind is that a perma TR controls every fight he comes into. In a game of chess, he makes the first move. Anticipation and controlled chaos are the two key factors in a rogue vs CW fight on both offensive and defensive sides of the coin. Once one side becomes predictable, the fight is all but decided. In other words If the CW falls into patterns, both in attack and movement, the Tr will connect with his damage and avoid yours. If on the other hand the TR becomes predictable with his attacks and movement, then it's just a matter of you pouncing on the timing to bring him down. This is what makes oppressive force so effective, a TR will never see it coming, when you do use it however, make sure he is nearby and his ITC is on cooldown
TBH, these days CRIT dots and assailing force are eating my stealth as much as bile ever did. So unless you are using COI I wouldn't bother switching out.
against good cw tr has no chance but to run
i dont mean whats good in your opinion
but those cw on first page no tr can beat
u need to conect df at least 2,3 of them and then daily like 2x before soulforged with pvorp with bile no chance
same time one shot from cw -game over
TW, Destro GWF is a blast to play in PvP now. Needs probably a bit more base survivability, just a bit, but very fun. Need to play smart, hit and run, and you're pretty much always playing on the edge. One mistake, you're pretty much dead by CC/ ranged DPS. .
Nope. Don't change Destroyer for PvP. Let it like that, as a PvE DPS Tree. Sentinel is Tank PvP/PvE Tree.
If we wanted to have a GWF who deals damages and who is viable in PvP, then there is another Tree exactly for it : Instigator. This is why this Tree HAS TO BE REWORKED.
When it will be its turn, I'll expect a rework into a glasscanon/highburst with DR piercing/crit, with high mobility, few controls, high burst (with DR Reduces, true damages, passing deflection for example), but sucks in tanking.
Actually Destroyer has Sprint or even Punishing Charge but Punishing Charge doesn't give control immune (and Mighty Leap ... Mighty Leap ...)
My propositions to make Instigator viable :
T1 : Student of the Sword :
Your critical strikes lower your target's DR to your attacks by 1/2/3/4/5% for 5 seconds. This effect does not stack.
Before the nerf, it could stack 3 times. It was a lot because the old GWF had damages and tanking. But now he must choose between damages and tanking. This Tree should be pvp damages. So this must get a little change, but not against squishy classes (would be too much), but against Tanky classes.
Your critical strikes lower your ACTUAL target's DR to your attacks by 2/4/6/8/10 % for 5 seconds. Block and Unstoppable also count.
For a CW for example, if he has 30% DR, the reduce will be 3%.
Less than the actual, but it's better, if Instigator were reworked, the feat would be a little bit too powerfull against low DR, but still not good against high DR (GWF Sentinel, GF ...).
The point is to nerf it a bit against squishies classes and buff it against tank, to have an equal chance.
For example, a GWF Sentinel should have between 80% (around 40% without unstoppable) and 120% DR (but not really true, I don't really know how does it work).So a Sentinel GWF will see his 120% DR reduced to 108 (10% of 120 --> -12%).
Fleet Footed :
Whenever you control a target, you gain an additional 3/6/9/12/15% Run Speed for 3 seconds.
This feat can be really good to catch someone, but in fact, it's bad. What's the point of gaining Run Speed when your target is controlled, so she can't move ? GWF'd rather gaining this Run Speed after the controls affect himself. This feat also encourages being a glasscanon with high mobility/burst but being really squishy.
Whenever you are controlled, you gain an additional 3/6/9/12/15% Run Speed for 3 seconds.
This change allows GWF to approach his target a little bit easier. You can think it can be broken, but in fact, not that much, he'll still take the controls, and damages. GWF can play with more skill with this change : he can permuting Sprint or not, to take a little control like Slow, to gain the Run Speed and then Sprints.
Vicious Advantage : Combat Advantage now grants an additional 1/2/3/4/5% Crit chance and damages.
This. With the Instigator changes I propose, it's perfectly fine.
Stunning Flourish :
Flourish has an extra chance 1/2/3/4/5% to crit and stuns for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 second on last hit.
Flourish stuns longer. Aw. If we kept this feat and buffed it, it would be overpowered (enjoy the 4 seconds stun). With the Instigator changes, Flourish would have too much Critical chance.
Flourish now gains an additional of X/X/X/X/X range (a very little buff of range, no worries) and now gives a control immunity while casting, but you take 1/2/3/4/5% more damage during this time.
You can think it can be overpowered. But in fact, no. Actually Flourish has a big cast time, can be interrupted, and easily dodgeable. This feat compensates it by buffing a very little bit the range, and gives control immunity during the cast (like Crescendo/Spinning Strike), but you take more damage during this time. Flourish would still be easily dodgeable because of his cast time and obvious animation.
The little buff of range helps more and control immunity on this long animation is a must GWF had to have since start of the game. Now, a GWF who slots Flourish, is dangerous. Now, an ennemy, instead of obviously using a control to never let you using this power, must dodge/block/run.
It would not be broken. Why ? An Instigator GWF is a highburst in melee, but squishy, not tanky. And when he's near to you, he should be really dangerous.
P.S : stun duration lowered to 2 seconds from 3 seconds (it would be broken for rotations).
Or the IV feat :
Frontline Surge deals 1/2/3/4/5% more damages and (now stuns) ennemies for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 sec more.
Once again, remove stun. 4 seconds stun, too much.
Frontline Surge deals 3/6/9/12/15% more damages.
With the recent high damages nerf of Frontline Surge, 20% more damages seems legit for Instigator. It would be, around +250-300 damages (actually the damages are 1800-2100). Not a lot, but it's AoE, in range.
Nimble Runner :
Sprint and Punishing Charge now grants 2/4/6/8/10% deflect chance.
Sprint needn't. It is already good (or almost too much good, 30% DR is maybe a little bit too high). Punishing Charge should have Control Immunity, but it would be "Never CCed GWF" with the actual Sprint.
Punishing Charge now grants 3/6/9/12/15% more deflect chance and deals 4/8/12/16/20% more damages.
P.S : Punishing Charge : 3 charges, but the damages are between 800-1100, +20%, it means +160-220.
This change would recompensate the players who calculate when they'd take high damages, and/or if they want to engage/escape more quickly than Sprint, but without Control Immunity, this is why they must use it at the right time (Oh god, is GWF becoming a skilled class ?). One thing which would be good, is to change the Punishing Charge animation (GWF rising his Weapon like he wants to be Immune/Protected) into THE OLD Sprint animation (it would be so beautiful)
Little change to do : making Punishing Charge a little bit more responsive when he casts and when the animation ends.
Allied Opportunity :
Mighty Leap and Not So Fast deals an additional of 2/4/6/8/10% damages and you and your allies gain Combat Advantage against the damaged target for 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds.
This feat gives Combat Advantage, a good synergy with Vicious Advantage. But, the damages buffs are a little bit too low (check base damages, Mighty Leap --> around 1400-1600, Not So Fast around 1800-2200) and the Combat Advantage Duration is too short because ennemies can kite, run, dodge, control you and waste this time easily.
Mighty Leap deals an additional of 10/20/30/40/50% damages and Not So fast 10/15/20/25/30% damages you and your allies gain Combat Advantage against the damaged target for 0.8/1.6/2.4/3.2/4 seconds.
50% more damages of around 1600 (max base damage) means +800, so 2400. For Mighty Leap, a jump, not a lot, but not bad. For Not So fast, 30% of 2200 (max damage) means 660, so 2860, not that much, not that bad, because : melee with just a little slow. But with 10 seconds CD. Perfect damages with perfect mechanics, don't you think ? The Combat Advantage is 1 second longer, not that much, 4 seconds, the ennemies have the time to dodge, or run, or control etc but they must take care.
If you think it's still too short, there are other ways to get Combat Advantage, and Not So Fast CD is 10 seconds, and Mighty Leap is 12 seconds.
Group Assault : Wicked Strike now deals an additional 1/2/3/4/5% for each target hit.
Good for PvE, but in fact, not really, because the damages are reduced in the exactly same mechanic. So this is a good for a bad, the feat is finally not worth. You know what will I change
Group Assault : Wicked Strike now deals an additional 1/2/3/4/5% for each target hit and the damages are not reduced anymore for each target you hit beyond the first.
A better Wicked Strike, and would be good with the Artifact Weapon for PvE or even PvP (but I don't think personally).
Crippling Strike : Spinning Strike and Avalanche of Steel now slow your target for 10/20/30/40/50%.
Can be good for some situations. But the point is Avalanche of Steel slow is not good (slow after prone, but i'm not sure).
Crippling Strike : Spinning Strike now slow your target for 10/20/30/40/50%, and Avalanche of Steels now Slow your target while you are in the air by 10/15/20/25/30%. Slam can now crit.
Avalanche of Steel was easily dodgeable with dodges, and even without when there were 2 or more people and you wanted to hit them all. Now Avalanche of Steel slows while you are in the air, which makes the Daily dangerous because it's less easily dodgeable (but still). And Slam which crits, this is more a fix than a buff, because it always had to crit. Giving the crit Slam in this feat, why not ?
To fix : Spinning Strike OFTEN doesn't give Control Immune while using it.
Final Feat :
Instigator's Vengeance : Your damage is increased by 12%, but taking direct damage will disable this bonus for 3 seconds.
The thing is you always take damages, you're a GWF, you take damages to approach your ennemies. In very rare cases you will keep this buff.
Instigator's Vengeance : Your damage is increased by 15 %, but taking direct damage will divide this bonus by 2 for 3 seconds. In addition, 8% of your damages ignore your target DR.
Giving more damages to GWFs who come at the right time, or have a good positioning, is a thing to keep. Taking damages now doesn't disable the feat, it now doesn't make the feat totally useless (and not broken, 7.5% more damages or 15%, Destroyer in PvE has permanently +40% more damages, in PvP it depends). 8% of GWF's damages ignoring target's DR, it means, for a 5k Encounter, he deals 400 TRUE damages (not that much). It means if he killed someone alone, with 30k HP (including regeneration/lifesteal/artifact), he dealt 2400 TRUE damages (not a lot, but this is good).
It is now a real Final Feat for Instigator.
The reasons of these changes are actual Instigator is really bad but has a good potential. Those buffs are not "damnly broken buffs". It wouldn't make the actual IBS/Crescendo or any other combo "Broken", no. These changes give chances to GWFs to have other Encounter/At-Wills/Dailies good (Wicked Strike, Punishing Charge, Spinning Strike, Avalanche of Steel, Slam, Not So Fast) and with new Builds. It would make the GWF player calculating when they should use their power, alternating Sprint and their powers, like Punishing Charge/Mighty Leap, and not the thing you hate "Mod 3 GWF"
This would make the glasscanon GWF viable, but not broken, because he'd stay squishy, easily killable in rotations, the fight now would depend of the skill between GWF and the ennemy.
If you really want to go with bile, steal time and icy terrain are not the answer. You will stall a good TR that way, but you won't kill him. You need burst to kill a TR, when he pops out of stealth. Steal time adds 4 wep procs and a slow effect with the spam-cancel method, and that just isn't enough to pull a rogue from stealth. Even if you are able to fight equally against a TR with bile + passive aoes, that fight will likely take a long time, meanwhile your team lost one of it's most potent offensive classes.
Speaking from experience, Icy rays, ray of enfeeble, COI, and most especially oppressive force are your best weapons if you want to KILL a TR. Having been on the receiving end of it COI, especially in conjunction with bile is probably the most effective stealth burn a spell storm CW has.
I did a lot of experimenting with TR hunting CW builds in Mod 3 and the most effective one by a long way was Bile coupled with Steal Time and Ray of Frost. ST worked great for de-stealthing and once visible RoF made sure the TR never entered stealth again. At that point most would panic and the fight was over.
Not saying it was 100% mind - skilled TRs tend not to panic and have back-up plans for when stealth fails. And as you said, that build lacks burst so if the TR had decent attacks that didn't rely on stealth they were still a threat. But a very large number of TRs have no idea what to do if stealth isn't available and they can't land DF reliably.
With the new CW I reckon you probably don't need that particular setup any more.
against good cw tr has no chance but to run
i dont mean whats good in your opinion
but those cw on first page no tr can beat
u need to conect df at least 2,3 of them and then daily like 2x before soulforged with pvorp with bile no chance
same time one shot from cw -game over
"Those CW on first page no tr can beat" You have it exactly opposite my friend, against a TR built SPECIFICALLY to combat them no CW stands a chance.
Paragon WK executioner. Stats, power>recovery>crit. Defense? don't need it. Tactic, whittle them down to half HP with daggers then Hateful knifes + lashing blade. Run out of stealth? Not a problem, just move out of range or duck behind a corner then refill with some twilight adept and your good to go for another 30 seconds. Sure DIS and COS do chip damage, but with a 50% crit, 7k power and a Pvorp it's more than enough to kill a CW. You don't even need tenacious and can load tactics for some more AP gain.
What's the CW going to do? Find the rogue? You must be kidding me. Avoid a 80ft range prone from stealth and the follow up 20K lashing? Only if you have more luck than the tr has timing. Cheesy? You bet, not to mention being skilless and cowardly. But in the hands of a top-level TR with bis gear no CW stands a chance. Not that being able to leisurely take out any CW 1v1 is going to help you much to win dominion matches.
First of all, I am sticking to MI and DF. I would hate to see the above become common place, not that I would really blame anyone if they did what with CWs being what they are today.
P.S. The leader board are NOT a good indicator of skill level, it's as much of an indicator of who knows how to work the elo system with group dynamics, who has the best gear, and who is on the up and up with things that are BROKEN in pvp, which includes more than just the CW class itself.
I did a lot of experimenting with TR hunting CW builds in Mod 3 and the most effective one by a long way was Bile coupled with Steal Time and Ray of Frost. ST worked great for de-stealthing and once visible RoF made sure the TR never entered stealth again. At that point most would panic and the fight was over.
Not saying it was 100% mind - skilled TRs tend not to panic and have back-up plans for when stealth fails. And as you said, that build lacks burst so if the TR had decent attacks that didn't rely on stealth they were still a threat. But a very large number of TRs have no idea what to do if stealth isn't available and they can't land DF reliably.
With the new CW I reckon you probably don't need that particular setup any more.
It's an uncommon tactic, and it also makes things much rougher for TR. I fought my share of bile wizards in M3 and didn't often lose 1v1. When I was fighting a bile wizard, ITC + shadow strike were used as a CC break and AP gain only, I would immediately restealth = no ROF stacks. Steal time was and is still a very effective anti rogue tool, but it depends on how the CW uses it. If I can predict when and how often the CW is going to use steal time I can ITC into a flurry right at the moment he starts using it, there is a short pause where he gets hit before he can cancel with dodge. At other times I would flicker by him and then move out of range, CW spams steal time, hits nothing and puts it on the short cooldown, not to mention using up his stamina. I count to four while nipping at him with gloaming cut and then either get ready to connect with DF if my position is good or dodge roll out of range if it's not. The best CWs I faced had no set pattern with steal time and would often follow through as well.
So, a CW just killed me (16k GF) and a 17k GWF one after the other. Both of us in PVP gear. Both of us above 40k HP. Both of us above 40% DR. Both of us above 20% Tenacity. Neither of us were able to touch him once. Freeze, repel, freeze, that was his whole ******* rotation on the both of us. Such skill required.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
What's crazy is that players constantly, constantly give the DEVs feedback, over and over again! You have to work really hard to screw up a game so amazingly.
i'm a pessimist
i think this is just an indication of things to come, they make 1 or 2 classes really over the top OP in pvp for a month or a couples of months, so ppl spend money on gearign them out....then they make 1 or 2 classes OP and nerf the others...so ppl have to reroll and spend more money
either that, or devs don't play pvp at all and have no pvp perspective
i think this is just an indication of things to come, they make 1 or 2 classes really over the top OP in pvp for a month or a couples of months, so ppl spend money on gearign them out....then they make 1 or 2 classes OP and nerf the others...so ppl have to reroll and spend more money
either that, or devs don't play pvp at all and have no pvp perspective
cause things are really terrible right now
CW >> HR/GF >> GWF >>>> DC
Well my SW is only low geared at the moment so it's hard to say, most are probably at that point still, however when I've gotten an equal geared match up, it really melts the enemy, but is fairly squishy with not much in the way of cc. (both cc mechanics feel a little clunky to me still)
i don't know if this thread's dead, but i need to tell:
Why does everyone play the same classes in PvP? I've just started today and fighted against a team of 4 CONTROL WIZARDS & 1 SCOURGE WARLOCK and these classes are broken. In the last three games I've played I've been the only one with Guardian Fighter and, with all their CC I couldn't even Guard. I think there's something to be done there and is that there can only be 1 of each class in each team, or at least only two. I don't find it fair and it's not funny if there is a team like that bc all they have to do is rely on their CC and once they've killed everyone capture the points. And what can I do, the only GF in the match? Walk while I stand up my shield and try to grab attenttion just to get killed in 4 seconds while I'm permastunned bc of these players. It's ruining my PvP experience that at first I thought to be cool. Now it seems like some kind of "mafia" where all players unite under the same class banner just to make boring matches.
i don't know if this thread's dead, but i need to tell:
Why does everyone play the same classes in PvP? I've just started today and fighted against a team of 4 CONTROL WIZARDS & 1 SCOURGE WARLOCK and these classes are broken. In the last three games I've played I've been the only one with Guardian Fighter and, with all their CC I couldn't even Guard. I think there's something to be done there and is that there can only be 1 of each class in each team, or at least only two. I don't find it fair and it's not funny if there is a team like that bc all they have to do is rely on their CC and once they've killed everyone capture the points. And what can I do, the only GF in the match? Walk while I stand up my shield and try to grab attenttion just to get killed in 4 seconds while I'm permastunned bc of these players. It's ruining my PvP experience that at first I thought to be cool. Now it seems like some kind of "mafia" where all players unite under the same class banner just to make boring matches.
SW are new so you'll see a lot of them in everything as people try them out for the next 2 months ish. CW's are the FOTM so you'll see them alot too.
but i'm pretty good at holding my own against most classes, TRs i laugh at, GFs, long boring fight (unless they're geared and dpsy, drop my *** with anvil of doom), CWs, gotta hope they don't proc everything or aren't geared, gwf are laughable most of the time, HRs, forget it, they mitigate WAY TOO much and give out WAY TOO much damage, i just try to avoid their OP asses
Cws currently out of league but most players are not that good thanks god, at both building the toon and playing it.
Gfs/ hrs right after them. Very powerful.
Tra are still the best at holding points/ trolling enemies. Best pvp survivability if skilled and semi-perma.
Dcs tank with blue dragon gliph... can' t touch them, perhaps the only way They have to survive this CC/ DPS fest mod4 pvp is...
Gwf destro hits hard on most enemy, needs to go perma runner and hit and run. Less survivable than pretty much everything, seems to me like playing a melee version of my mod2 CW alt. not as powerful as current cws/ gfs/ hrs but in the hands of a skilled player, still dangerous. Sentinels idk. There are sure new builds using some feat and enchants to go full tank but still kill some enemies.
SW...seems pretty much in the same place as gwf destroyers. Must learn to use puppet has a shield to survive. Very strong DPS.
Devs need to tone down DPS in pvp where it is clearly too high, And fix all the bugged stuff killing players in seconds. Then we could have balance.
CW seemed seriously underpowered in module 3 pvp. But the changes to GWF and HR in module 4 would have been enough to "level the playing field" without really touching CW spells. A demonstration of just how OP those 2 classes really were in m3. I play a cw and while I enjoyed the challenge before I still felt a little cheated that I could be easily beaten by classes that seemed to have it too easy. The problem is reversed now in that the challenge has been removed and apart from meeting another cw on the battlefield no class poses any real threat. (rogues can always be a good challenge) Not sure that anyone is particularly happy with the changes to their class this time round (with the possible exception of GF).
Comments
GWF destroyer way too squishy. No matter how you sprint. Would rather see Destro damage toned down a bit and tankyness increased a bit. I mean that's pretty basic that even a DPS fighter build should win a facetanking contest against a ranged DPS squishy class. Not the case anymore.
PvP still very far from balanced. My first impressions so far:
1) CCW/ ConTROLL Wizard--> first NWO demigod in Mod4, just need the right build
2) GF--> pretty much, module 3 GWF or pre-nerf GF before module 1. High survivability, high DPS.
3) HR--> still pretty survivable and very high DPS
3) TR--> still semi-perma being one of the strongest assets/ point holder on enemy base, if in the hands of a skilled player
4) GWF--> pretty much what CWs were in module 2-3
5) SW--> only met one, nice DPS but seemed easy to catch and kill
6) DC--> well... uhm... i feel bad for you guys. Seriously. GWFs and SW at least have DPS to kill here and there. The ranged DPS and CC storm must hit you pretty hard cause in all the matches i played, you were more often at the campfire than on the field.
This is on pug PvP after few games. I'm not considering lame GWF builds to get unkillable running around with a wet noodle for weapon, or using bugged enchants or lame tenes to passively kill enemies...
BTW, Destro GWF is a blast to play in PvP now. Needs probably a bit more base survivability, just a bit, but very fun. Need to play smart, hit and run, and you're pretty much always playing on the edge. One mistake, you're pretty much dead by CC/ ranged DPS. Feels like my old CW alt in module 2, but melee hit and run instead of ranged. Sprint still feels not responsive/ precise enough compared to other dodge moves.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Many issues can be solved just making powers work differently on mobs and on players. Balance in PvP can be achieved without affecting PvE, and vice-versa.
It's just that the devs like to mess things up.
Plus while in PvE all are on the same side, in PvP it's more noticeable if gear or powers are bugged or OP. But asking for fixes in PvP does not mean PvE must be affected. I play both and i think devs must just make powers and feats work differently in PvE and PvP.
The way they did with tenacity introduction to try and limit regeneration and life steal in PvP, while they're not affected in PvE.
Different is when a class is OP in PvE like CWs since ages. There, they need a huge tone down cause they now went from being greatly OP in PvE to being demigods in PvE and PvP.
Hope they fix everything soon...
That is a good point - the Devs should simply modify content in PvP for better balance there without affecting PvE playability.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
If you really want to go with bile, steal time and icy terrain are not the answer. You will stall a good TR that way, but you won't kill him. You need burst to kill a TR, when he pops out of stealth. Steal time adds 4 wep procs and a slow effect with the spam-cancel method, and that just isn't enough to pull a rogue from stealth. Even if you are able to fight equally against a TR with bile + passive aoes, that fight will likely take a long time, meanwhile your team lost one of it's most potent offensive classes.
Speaking from experience, Icy rays, ray of enfeeble, COI, and most especially oppressive force are your best weapons if you want to KILL a TR. Having been on the receiving end of it COI, especially in conjunction with bile is probably the most effective stealth burn a spell storm CW has.
One thing you have to keep in mind is that a perma TR controls every fight he comes into. In a game of chess, he makes the first move. Anticipation and controlled chaos are the two key factors in a rogue vs CW fight on both offensive and defensive sides of the coin. Once one side becomes predictable, the fight is all but decided. In other words If the CW falls into patterns, both in attack and movement, the Tr will connect with his damage and avoid yours. If on the other hand the TR becomes predictable with his attacks and movement, then it's just a matter of you pouncing on the timing to bring him down. This is what makes oppressive force so effective, a TR will never see it coming, when you do use it however, make sure he is nearby and his ITC is on cooldown
TBH, these days CRIT dots and assailing force are eating my stealth as much as bile ever did. So unless you are using COI I wouldn't bother switching out.
against good cw tr has no chance but to run
i dont mean whats good in your opinion
but those cw on first page no tr can beat
u need to conect df at least 2,3 of them and then daily like 2x before soulforged with pvorp with bile no chance
same time one shot from cw -game over
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOBvEhz8cKQ
Thats a GF with KV running the new broken enchants.
Nope. Don't change Destroyer for PvP. Let it like that, as a PvE DPS Tree. Sentinel is Tank PvP/PvE Tree.
If we wanted to have a GWF who deals damages and who is viable in PvP, then there is another Tree exactly for it : Instigator. This is why this Tree HAS TO BE REWORKED.
When it will be its turn, I'll expect a rework into a glasscanon/highburst with DR piercing/crit, with high mobility, few controls, high burst (with DR Reduces, true damages, passing deflection for example), but sucks in tanking.
Actually Destroyer has Sprint or even Punishing Charge but Punishing Charge doesn't give control immune (and Mighty Leap ... Mighty Leap ...)
My propositions to make Instigator viable :
T1 : Student of the Sword :
Your critical strikes lower your target's DR to your attacks by 1/2/3/4/5% for 5 seconds. This effect does not stack.
Before the nerf, it could stack 3 times. It was a lot because the old GWF had damages and tanking. But now he must choose between damages and tanking. This Tree should be pvp damages. So this must get a little change, but not against squishy classes (would be too much), but against Tanky classes.
Your critical strikes lower your ACTUAL target's DR to your attacks by 2/4/6/8/10 % for 5 seconds. Block and Unstoppable also count.
For a CW for example, if he has 30% DR, the reduce will be 3%.
Less than the actual, but it's better, if Instigator were reworked, the feat would be a little bit too powerfull against low DR, but still not good against high DR (GWF Sentinel, GF ...).
The point is to nerf it a bit against squishies classes and buff it against tank, to have an equal chance.
For example, a GWF Sentinel should have between 80% (around 40% without unstoppable) and 120% DR (but not really true, I don't really know how does it work).So a Sentinel GWF will see his 120% DR reduced to 108 (10% of 120 --> -12%).
Fleet Footed :
Whenever you control a target, you gain an additional 3/6/9/12/15% Run Speed for 3 seconds.
This feat can be really good to catch someone, but in fact, it's bad. What's the point of gaining Run Speed when your target is controlled, so she can't move ? GWF'd rather gaining this Run Speed after the controls affect himself. This feat also encourages being a glasscanon with high mobility/burst but being really squishy.
Whenever you are controlled, you gain an additional 3/6/9/12/15% Run Speed for 3 seconds.
This change allows GWF to approach his target a little bit easier. You can think it can be broken, but in fact, not that much, he'll still take the controls, and damages. GWF can play with more skill with this change : he can permuting Sprint or not, to take a little control like Slow, to gain the Run Speed and then Sprints.
Vicious Advantage : Combat Advantage now grants an additional 1/2/3/4/5% Crit chance and damages.
This. With the Instigator changes I propose, it's perfectly fine.
Stunning Flourish :
Flourish has an extra chance 1/2/3/4/5% to crit and stuns for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 second on last hit.
Flourish stuns longer. Aw. If we kept this feat and buffed it, it would be overpowered (enjoy the 4 seconds stun). With the Instigator changes, Flourish would have too much Critical chance.
Flourish now gains an additional of X/X/X/X/X range (a very little buff of range, no worries) and now gives a control immunity while casting, but you take 1/2/3/4/5% more damage during this time.
You can think it can be overpowered. But in fact, no. Actually Flourish has a big cast time, can be interrupted, and easily dodgeable. This feat compensates it by buffing a very little bit the range, and gives control immunity during the cast (like Crescendo/Spinning Strike), but you take more damage during this time. Flourish would still be easily dodgeable because of his cast time and obvious animation.
The little buff of range helps more and control immunity on this long animation is a must GWF had to have since start of the game. Now, a GWF who slots Flourish, is dangerous. Now, an ennemy, instead of obviously using a control to never let you using this power, must dodge/block/run.
It would not be broken. Why ? An Instigator GWF is a highburst in melee, but squishy, not tanky. And when he's near to you, he should be really dangerous.
P.S : stun duration lowered to 2 seconds from 3 seconds (it would be broken for rotations).
Or the IV feat :
Frontline Surge deals 1/2/3/4/5% more damages and (now stuns) ennemies for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 sec more.
Once again, remove stun. 4 seconds stun, too much.
Frontline Surge deals 3/6/9/12/15% more damages.
With the recent high damages nerf of Frontline Surge, 20% more damages seems legit for Instigator. It would be, around +250-300 damages (actually the damages are 1800-2100). Not a lot, but it's AoE, in range.
Nimble Runner :
Sprint and Punishing Charge now grants 2/4/6/8/10% deflect chance.
Sprint needn't. It is already good (or almost too much good, 30% DR is maybe a little bit too high). Punishing Charge should have Control Immunity, but it would be "Never CCed GWF" with the actual Sprint.
Punishing Charge now grants 3/6/9/12/15% more deflect chance and deals 4/8/12/16/20% more damages.
P.S : Punishing Charge : 3 charges, but the damages are between 800-1100, +20%, it means +160-220.
This change would recompensate the players who calculate when they'd take high damages, and/or if they want to engage/escape more quickly than Sprint, but without Control Immunity, this is why they must use it at the right time (Oh god, is GWF becoming a skilled class ?). One thing which would be good, is to change the Punishing Charge animation (GWF rising his Weapon like he wants to be Immune/Protected) into THE OLD Sprint animation (it would be so beautiful)
Little change to do : making Punishing Charge a little bit more responsive when he casts and when the animation ends.
Allied Opportunity :
Mighty Leap and Not So Fast deals an additional of 2/4/6/8/10% damages and you and your allies gain Combat Advantage against the damaged target for 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds.
This feat gives Combat Advantage, a good synergy with Vicious Advantage. But, the damages buffs are a little bit too low (check base damages, Mighty Leap --> around 1400-1600, Not So Fast around 1800-2200) and the Combat Advantage Duration is too short because ennemies can kite, run, dodge, control you and waste this time easily.
Mighty Leap deals an additional of 10/20/30/40/50% damages and Not So fast 10/15/20/25/30% damages you and your allies gain Combat Advantage against the damaged target for 0.8/1.6/2.4/3.2/4 seconds.
50% more damages of around 1600 (max base damage) means +800, so 2400. For Mighty Leap, a jump, not a lot, but not bad. For Not So fast, 30% of 2200 (max damage) means 660, so 2860, not that much, not that bad, because : melee with just a little slow. But with 10 seconds CD. Perfect damages with perfect mechanics, don't you think ? The Combat Advantage is 1 second longer, not that much, 4 seconds, the ennemies have the time to dodge, or run, or control etc but they must take care.
If you think it's still too short, there are other ways to get Combat Advantage, and Not So Fast CD is 10 seconds, and Mighty Leap is 12 seconds.
Group Assault : Wicked Strike now deals an additional 1/2/3/4/5% for each target hit.
Good for PvE, but in fact, not really, because the damages are reduced in the exactly same mechanic. So this is a good for a bad, the feat is finally not worth. You know what will I change
Group Assault : Wicked Strike now deals an additional 1/2/3/4/5% for each target hit and the damages are not reduced anymore for each target you hit beyond the first.
A better Wicked Strike, and would be good with the Artifact Weapon for PvE or even PvP (but I don't think personally).
Crippling Strike : Spinning Strike and Avalanche of Steel now slow your target for 10/20/30/40/50%.
Can be good for some situations. But the point is Avalanche of Steel slow is not good (slow after prone, but i'm not sure).
Crippling Strike : Spinning Strike now slow your target for 10/20/30/40/50%, and Avalanche of Steels now Slow your target while you are in the air by 10/15/20/25/30%. Slam can now crit.
Avalanche of Steel was easily dodgeable with dodges, and even without when there were 2 or more people and you wanted to hit them all. Now Avalanche of Steel slows while you are in the air, which makes the Daily dangerous because it's less easily dodgeable (but still). And Slam which crits, this is more a fix than a buff, because it always had to crit. Giving the crit Slam in this feat, why not ?
To fix : Spinning Strike OFTEN doesn't give Control Immune while using it.
Final Feat :
Instigator's Vengeance : Your damage is increased by 12%, but taking direct damage will disable this bonus for 3 seconds.
The thing is you always take damages, you're a GWF, you take damages to approach your ennemies. In very rare cases you will keep this buff.
Instigator's Vengeance : Your damage is increased by 15 %, but taking direct damage will divide this bonus by 2 for 3 seconds. In addition, 8% of your damages ignore your target DR.
Giving more damages to GWFs who come at the right time, or have a good positioning, is a thing to keep. Taking damages now doesn't disable the feat, it now doesn't make the feat totally useless (and not broken, 7.5% more damages or 15%, Destroyer in PvE has permanently +40% more damages, in PvP it depends). 8% of GWF's damages ignoring target's DR, it means, for a 5k Encounter, he deals 400 TRUE damages (not that much). It means if he killed someone alone, with 30k HP (including regeneration/lifesteal/artifact), he dealt 2400 TRUE damages (not a lot, but this is good).
It is now a real Final Feat for Instigator.
The reasons of these changes are actual Instigator is really bad but has a good potential. Those buffs are not "damnly broken buffs". It wouldn't make the actual IBS/Crescendo or any other combo "Broken", no. These changes give chances to GWFs to have other Encounter/At-Wills/Dailies good (Wicked Strike, Punishing Charge, Spinning Strike, Avalanche of Steel, Slam, Not So Fast) and with new Builds. It would make the GWF player calculating when they should use their power, alternating Sprint and their powers, like Punishing Charge/Mighty Leap, and not the thing you hate "Mod 3 GWF"
This would make the glasscanon GWF viable, but not broken, because he'd stay squishy, easily killable in rotations, the fight now would depend of the skill between GWF and the ennemy.
I accept all your comments, but without insults.
Regards,
Not saying it was 100% mind - skilled TRs tend not to panic and have back-up plans for when stealth fails. And as you said, that build lacks burst so if the TR had decent attacks that didn't rely on stealth they were still a threat. But a very large number of TRs have no idea what to do if stealth isn't available and they can't land DF reliably.
With the new CW I reckon you probably don't need that particular setup any more.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
"Those CW on first page no tr can beat" You have it exactly opposite my friend, against a TR built SPECIFICALLY to combat them no CW stands a chance.
Paragon WK executioner. Stats, power>recovery>crit. Defense? don't need it. Tactic, whittle them down to half HP with daggers then Hateful knifes + lashing blade. Run out of stealth? Not a problem, just move out of range or duck behind a corner then refill with some twilight adept and your good to go for another 30 seconds. Sure DIS and COS do chip damage, but with a 50% crit, 7k power and a Pvorp it's more than enough to kill a CW. You don't even need tenacious and can load tactics for some more AP gain.
What's the CW going to do? Find the rogue? You must be kidding me. Avoid a 80ft range prone from stealth and the follow up 20K lashing? Only if you have more luck than the tr has timing. Cheesy? You bet, not to mention being skilless and cowardly. But in the hands of a top-level TR with bis gear no CW stands a chance. Not that being able to leisurely take out any CW 1v1 is going to help you much to win dominion matches.
First of all, I am sticking to MI and DF. I would hate to see the above become common place, not that I would really blame anyone if they did what with CWs being what they are today.
P.S. The leader board are NOT a good indicator of skill level, it's as much of an indicator of who knows how to work the elo system with group dynamics, who has the best gear, and who is on the up and up with things that are BROKEN in pvp, which includes more than just the CW class itself.
It's an uncommon tactic, and it also makes things much rougher for TR. I fought my share of bile wizards in M3 and didn't often lose 1v1. When I was fighting a bile wizard, ITC + shadow strike were used as a CC break and AP gain only, I would immediately restealth = no ROF stacks. Steal time was and is still a very effective anti rogue tool, but it depends on how the CW uses it. If I can predict when and how often the CW is going to use steal time I can ITC into a flurry right at the moment he starts using it, there is a short pause where he gets hit before he can cancel with dodge. At other times I would flicker by him and then move out of range, CW spams steal time, hits nothing and puts it on the short cooldown, not to mention using up his stamina. I count to four while nipping at him with gloaming cut and then either get ready to connect with DF if my position is good or dodge roll out of range if it's not. The best CWs I faced had no set pattern with steal time and would often follow through as well.
i'm a pessimist
i think this is just an indication of things to come, they make 1 or 2 classes really over the top OP in pvp for a month or a couples of months, so ppl spend money on gearign them out....then they make 1 or 2 classes OP and nerf the others...so ppl have to reroll and spend more money
either that, or devs don't play pvp at all and have no pvp perspective
cause things are really terrible right now
CW >> HR/GF >> GWF >>>> DC
Where's TR? out of the league? xD
And where is the SW? That's my big question.
Why does everyone play the same classes in PvP? I've just started today and fighted against a team of 4 CONTROL WIZARDS & 1 SCOURGE WARLOCK and these classes are broken. In the last three games I've played I've been the only one with Guardian Fighter and, with all their CC I couldn't even Guard. I think there's something to be done there and is that there can only be 1 of each class in each team, or at least only two. I don't find it fair and it's not funny if there is a team like that bc all they have to do is rely on their CC and once they've killed everyone capture the points. And what can I do, the only GF in the match? Walk while I stand up my shield and try to grab attenttion just to get killed in 4 seconds while I'm permastunned bc of these players. It's ruining my PvP experience that at first I thought to be cool. Now it seems like some kind of "mafia" where all players unite under the same class banner just to make boring matches.
SW are new so you'll see a lot of them in everything as people try them out for the next 2 months ish. CW's are the FOTM so you'll see them alot too.
LOL
totally forgot about TR
i'd say
CW >> HR/GF >> GWF >> TR/DC
SW, too early to tell
GWF better than TR ahahahah that was really good joke.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
yeah, its a close one
probably put gwf/tr/dc in the same tier
DC with TR?... can DCs kill something?.
i'm not the best hybrid cleric
but i'm pretty good at holding my own against most classes, TRs i laugh at, GFs, long boring fight (unless they're geared and dpsy, drop my *** with anvil of doom), CWs, gotta hope they don't proc everything or aren't geared, gwf are laughable most of the time, HRs, forget it, they mitigate WAY TOO much and give out WAY TOO much damage, i just try to avoid their OP asses
Cws currently out of league but most players are not that good thanks god, at both building the toon and playing it.
Gfs/ hrs right after them. Very powerful.
Tra are still the best at holding points/ trolling enemies. Best pvp survivability if skilled and semi-perma.
Dcs tank with blue dragon gliph... can' t touch them, perhaps the only way They have to survive this CC/ DPS fest mod4 pvp is...
Gwf destro hits hard on most enemy, needs to go perma runner and hit and run. Less survivable than pretty much everything, seems to me like playing a melee version of my mod2 CW alt. not as powerful as current cws/ gfs/ hrs but in the hands of a skilled player, still dangerous. Sentinels idk. There are sure new builds using some feat and enchants to go full tank but still kill some enemies.
SW...seems pretty much in the same place as gwf destroyers. Must learn to use puppet has a shield to survive. Very strong DPS.
Devs need to tone down DPS in pvp where it is clearly too high, And fix all the bugged stuff killing players in seconds. Then we could have balance.
RoF/Spellstorm combo?