This one really needs to be re-thought, it will likely send most players down the Sentinel Path or more likely send GWF back to the bottom of the barrel class it was at game launch.
Probably most PVPers will reroll to HR or TR, and most PVErs to HR. It was nice being a GWF at launch, people didn't even know what your abilities were, the class was so rarely seen. Alright so only good friends and loyal guildies would take you to dungeons or PVP, but think of this as an opportunity to test the strength of your ingame relationships.
Edit: having a Euro connection, I will be forced to spec out of IV. No way with Eurolag will a 3 charges/9 second Threatening Rush be any use to me. I will mourn that amazing, beautiful yet now worthless skill with a glass of Merlot.
Well because FLS can hit multiple targets and if they are going to try and reduce the amount of CC GWFs have, id rather have them remove FLS prone but keep takedown prone, than keep FLS prone and remove takedown prone.
The stun needs to be much longer though to match flourish atleast. Again, why I also suggested NOT nerfing FLS's damage as that is kinda dumb as well. But the fast it can be used at range, and hit multiple targets, I see no problem with it dealing less damage than flourish, but it should stun atleast the same amount as flourish....
why it should takedown/FLs stay to prone? because of control resist that's why , and because logic.. these 2 skills should be stay as they are, gwf are still killable, they aren't like the old gwf with alot of regen, nerfing their damage for what reason? how would that help in pvp ? they already do little crits on pvp spec players. only roar should've been nerfed either they've remove the stun lock skills or the stun .. one of that , they chose the stun for no reason ... what logic is this? remove stun from roar, and put it on takedown and frontline surge? is there any change in this update? making frontline hit less ? this doesn't help, as it was hittin enough or what? flourish hits 3x crits on a target, frontline surge hits 1 of those crits on 5 targets at most ... so makin it to hit less how would that help ? ibs most crit is 10k , takedown will be around 2,5k and frontline 4k , how can i beat a hr/cw/tr/dc/gf ? with this less damage?
To early to tell, but I think the GWF community has gotten so used to using Unstoppable as a crutch and not using ( needing) to use their other abilities as intended... I think now GWfs will have some weaknesses, and need to play much more tactful then the Smash Unstoppable kill everyone, sprint away style we have now.
GWF will need to use unstoppable as a defensive tactic now instead of just using it to be offensive, they will also have to better use their other abilities and encounters rather then just all burst abilities.
Ive said this for a LONG time. That there are alot of bad GWFs which unstoppable makes up for their lack of play, but there are also good GWFs who take advantage of unstoppable correctly...
Which is why im not against nerfing unstoppable, im not against nerfing damage, or even prones but nerfing them ALL is what is stupid.
If unstoppable was dropped to only 15-30%, if takedown was brought BACK to normal damage + prone, roar is fixed so thats not CC anymore, Front Line can remain a stun (although buffed up to 2 seconds IMO) Unstoppable REcovery has already been hit by HD now (as it should)
I think youll see alot less skill-less GWFs and the ones that can, will play good.
I just came back from Live server and asked on PVP the GS of all GWFs i have met so far vs all my lvl60 chars... and just 1 of all them, almost 18k, were able to kill me in single rotation vs my TR (13k). I will say it again: is not that "GWFs are op" but "ppl enters on PvP with a really low GS and comes here to complain about it".
This is a MAJOR part of the problem I agree. Its fundamentally a flawed match making system which tried to "Even out teams" by taking high ELO players pairing them with low ELO players to make a balanced team.
So what you end up having - and this happens to me ALL the time, is a 7-8k GS TR with zero weapon enchants and blues, and I am a 17k GWF GS... Well, what do you think happens to that TR on my team? He gets LIT UP by the other high ELO players that are my "counterparts" to balance the teams.
I have played against the BEST CWs in the game as a GWF, this is what happens and why GWF nerfs honestly are not needed.
- I run to them as the CC me, and damage me. I get enough determination to pop unstoppable and as I get in range to deal damage they blink, blink again, blink again, blink again and oh look! Im out of unstoppable and they do more damage, more CC and Potentially Ice Knife which prones me.
How do GWFs win this fight? Roar. As I get close, I wait for their 1st or second blink and I roar in the blink frames as they are getting ready to blink again. This ONE move allows me to threat rush them and IBS them for anywhere from 7-16k Damage on average.
remove Roar/Frontline/takedown - well GL catching a CW.... Unstoppable is 5-10%? LOL so now your forced to Sentinel because CWs wont even blink, theyll just DPS through unstoppable.
Again, this is only against the best CWs in game, and to show WHY ALL of these changes were not needed.
With roar gone players can either slot front line with DOUBLE the CD and it doesnt build determination, or they keep roar making it really hard to still catch. Thats the tradeoff.
The ones complaining about the dumb damage, are the low GS players matched against high GS players to "balance teams". Sorry, high ELO versus low ELO - eventhough there is a difference, on a large scale I think youll find most high ELO players have high GS too FYI...
Maybe change the ELO/Que system so it filters all players into two camps based on GS, THEN use the ELO system to work....
Sorry, but who came up with this stupid idea? You will be able to use very little stamina to dodge spells with sprint. It will make sprint too strong and its absolute nonsense to dodge while sprinting. Rather make unstoppable 20-30% resistence or make it 25-50 and reduce a bit dmg from destroyer stacks.
And no I do not mean take away sprint and give them a dodge, wait I do mean that but hear me out and don't get upset anti GWF players. This is mainly about PVP so sorry PVE players if this hurts you in anyway but dear lord please NW here my cries to give them a **** dodge. I casually looked at the Dev tracker then cried. Read this.
"Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
mount
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer "
This just tells GWFs that they won't be able to die if they know how to run. If they are CC Imune while sprinting they'll feel like they can face tank anything then run anytime, and don't forget the damage resistance... Anything I'm missing? The increased time to actually get on a mount..... This lets GWFs just attempt to kill and almost kills but is about to be killed so runs for a potion can't be CCed and the ridiculous mount time increase stops players from being able to chase after them so then you have a fully healed GWF and an exhausted probably almost killed other class. Now I understand before GWFs who had no idea how to use sprint were lacking in being able to face tank everything (no actually they weren't #rephrase) They're going to have some trouble face tanking everything so I'm not saying leave sprint how it is (However I don't have a problem with that) I'm saying give them a backflip or something in place of that. Sprint and CC Imunity plus damage resist just means more unkillable GWFs. Now I'm pretty sure this buff is in the name of PVE but Chris you must think about how it's gonna affect people in a whole not just one sided.
Okay GWFs you can't hate me for this, I know many of you are angels that la de da all over the place but think about the abusers... The ones who used roar and knew it was glitched, the ones who respecced to destroyer when they found out they were OP, heck think of the HRs who are dying for medicine, who died for the combatant set, **** this all think about the PERMA STEALTH TRs... I MEAN THE PERMA STEALTH TRs... Okay Don't leave the post just yet, bare with me so what's to stop the GWFs from sprinting when they see a CW knowing they always open up with Entangling Force, they just sprint around and around then prone prone CC prone prone -DEATH-. Okay I know the counterclaim "Every dodge can avoid CCs", Yes to that but they have to be careful with their dodges because after a dodge their character takes an hour to get up from the dodge (TR) or an hour to recover from their master dodge (CW) Or an hour to finish stepping out of the way (DC) or an hour finishing their half assed dodge (HR) or can easily be slowly walked around (GF). Imagine, you finally got entangling force charged up all happy and stuff and the smart GWF just avoids it with much more sprint left to just avoid it. I mean it doesn't have a 10hour casting time the GWF can just hold Shift real quick press the up arrow then let it go and prone you untl it's fully charged which won't take that long (because they literally probably only used up 1/10000000000000000000) (Yes tapping the 0 button was fun 00000) Then imagine the GWF is sprinting away after just killing your team mate but he's so close to death and you know **** well he'll beat the living **** out of you at full health so you decide that you need to take him out. He has damage resistance (30%) CC imunity and you have the 15 bagagillion hour mount cool down now you're gonna go contest that mode with sweat pouring down you head hoping he doesn't have a 200000% Mount and doesn't come until you're done capping or your whole team is their (which is some dumb stuff).
So I hope you guys understand why I think it'd be better to give them a dodge instead of this cazy buff to Sprint. If you guys disagree or have any concerns or I'm wrong in some way then please do not hesitate to tell me I'm wrong. Unless without explanation or your gonna be like "Umm no keep sprint easier to kill no dodge" or "WE NEED THIS SPRINT SUCKS RIGHT NOW ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME" (That one because I obviously said give you guys a back flip or something)
I'm still not getting it, how are we supposed to be a front line class that stands there and does damage if we have to run away to survive?
When CW, HR, etc., sprint away from combat they then use ranged attacks on things. The GWF cannot do this.
The simplest fix is a compromise, we see what you are going for with Sentinel.
Cutting unstoppable in half is still a huge cut. Cut in half, multiple by 2 for Sentinel's Aegis.
Retains the current feel of the class, grants improvement for going Sentinel, and allows non-sentinels to be able to at least hang out in the thick of the fight where they are supposed to be.
Please ask yourselves how much this change is for people playing at 10.5 to 12.5 GS as opposed to massively geared characters going well beyond what your current content supports breaking 15k and going all the way to 20K GS.
10.5 - 12.5 k GWFs are not roflstomping rooms of endgame dungeons on their own.
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iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
[snip]
Please ask yourselves how much this change is for people playing at 10.5 to 12.5 GS as opposed to massively geared characters going well beyond what your current content supports breaking 15k and going all the way to 20K GS.
10.5 - 12.5 k GWFs are not roflstomping rooms of endgame dungeons on their own.
A very good point. I actually tested this, grabbed a full set of level 60 blues and some rank 4 enchants, which ended up with my GS around 12k (I still had boons, but unequipped my artifacts and used white/green companions to compensate). I didn't feel overpowered at all. I couldn't solo rooms, and I certainly wasn't unkillable. A lot of the problem is that more and more of us are outgearing the current content. At 18k I think it is reasonable that I can mostly solo content intended for 8-12k players. Until we have content that matches our gear level, we can't really say if we are overpowered or not. I certainly didn't feel overpowered at 12k, which is at or around what a fairly new 60 would be at these days.
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
So hilariously, sprint >>> unstoppable. What a farce. I say that as someone with a 18k PvP GWF and a 16k PvE GWF.
The problem with sprint was never in use, in theory it's a brilliant escape mechanism and very simple and easy to use. The problem was that it didn't update your position to the server until you released shift. Thus if you released shift a fraction late due to lag or whatever you would get hit by everything that you supposedly just ran away from.
Ive said this for a LONG time. That there are alot of bad GWFs which unstoppable makes up for their lack of play, but there are also good GWFs who take advantage of unstoppable correctly...
Which is why im not against nerfing unstoppable, im not against nerfing damage, or even prones but nerfing them ALL is what is stupid.
If unstoppable was dropped to only 15-30%, if takedown was brought BACK to normal damage + prone, roar is fixed so thats not CC anymore, Front Line can remain a stun (although buffed up to 2 seconds IMO) Unstoppable REcovery has already been hit by HD now (as it should)
I think youll see alot less skill-less GWFs and the ones that can, will play good.
The takedown nerf is needed. It honestly hits too hard for a prone that is instant cast plus had a range plus on a 6 sec counter if you miss. If anything is a crutch it is that. Almost guaranteed that you land your biggest hitting encounter.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The takedown nerf is needed. It honestly hits too hard for a prone that is instant cast plus had a range plus on a 6 sec counter if you miss. If anything is a crutch it is that. Almost guaranteed that you land your biggest hitting encounter.
It actually has poor range. The illusion of range was because it's animation was longer than the actual cast time, so you would be hit, the server would acknowledge this but wouldn't send the information that you need to be prone you until the takedown animation was over, at which point the player would be on the other side of the node and go, "WTF, I'm nowhere near that guy! How did that hit me?"
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
People like this really need to stop posting mis-information here, especially SS of your character with weapon master stacks up.
Why wouldn't I post with weapon master stacks up? I'm at full weapon master stacks within 2 seconds of starting combat, and stay that way through the entire combat. Posting without stacks up would be misrepresenting my characters abilities in combat.
That said - it is pertinent to the thread. If these are the stats I get from playing a sentinel with far less damage output than a destroyer, than a destroyer should have far less defense. As it stands, switching to destroyer loses a few percent DR and about 10-15 percent deflect - maybe 10% or a little over total mitigation. And a destroyer does far more than 10% more damage than me. So yes - destroyers do need a nerf to unstoppable, and yes - it needs to be a lot more than 5-10% less damage resistance. If a destroyer is doing 50% more damage than me, he needs 50% less mitigation. Its called balance.
I've been playing a GWF since beta, and I firmly support the change to unstoppable. A destroyer GWF is a DPS build, not an off-tank. If you want to off-tank, roll a sentinel.
- B
Look at all the feedback from those who've run this out on the test server and it's enough to see they have taken a simple problem and applied an overly complicated fix to it.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer,
The fix is simple Fix Roar to function as it's intended to work, Fix the healing depression on Unstoppable so it works as intended. Adjust prone times to balance the rest out...... Simple
Scrape the rest of the changes and everyone should be happy.
I do a massive amount of DPS with almost a 19k Gear score and I cannot kill fully PvP geared players in one rotation, only players not equally geared, which is in and of it's self balance.
I reiterate outside of FIXING what needs fixed you are trying to adjust and make the solution far more complicated than it truly is.
I just came back from Live server and asked on PVP the GS of all GWFs i have met so far vs all my lvl60 chars... and just 1 of all them, almost 18k, were able to kill me in single rotation vs my TR (13k). I will say it again: is not that "GWFs are op" but "ppl enters on PvP with a really low GS and comes here to complain about it".
GS is funky anyways, especially comparing TR with GWF. My GWF in greens/blues with only 2 purple is higher GS than my TR in T2.
You guys and gals are funny. Many of you looked at the changes and cried foul rather than testing them. Go test the changes.
I've tested GWF on preview. One of the reasons the class will not function in PVP with the changes as they currently are is because IBS can be dodged following either a frontline or takedown.
You see a lot of people complaining about various aspects of the nerfs, but this one has gone unnoticed, probably because people haven't been testing them very often.
It also means that threatening rush, even if a GWF has the charges after catching their target, can't be used after a stun while still getting the next encounter up. It means GWFs lose their +15% damage from marked targets.
If a class has even +5% cc resist, so +15% from tenacity or more, they can dodge IBS if they have good ping. If they have typical tenacity of PVP geared players or the +10% cc racial, they can reliably dodge it every time.
If we start talking actual numbers using typical GWF PVP gear during a typical combo: frontline/roar -> takedown -> IBS,
2-4k from threatening rush x2
1-3k from takedown
4-13k from IBS
that is 7-20k damage lost on every combo as things are currently on the PTR. The only class that can't avoid the damage from the IBS is other GWFs.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
To the people saying we're crying about the changes.
People who plays this class, and plays it well, and knows the ins and outs of these changes. Can very accurately tell you what these changes will do wtihout even needed to test them. the tests that come up only confirm exactly what many of us are saying.
We're sitting here telling what is needed to make the class better and balanced and how these changes wrecks the class as a whole fundamentally and literally. Every thing we are saying is being proven in tests. And we know exactly how these changes are going to affect us and the over all game when this goes live.
Will try to patch and get on Preview over the next weekend. Usually difficult since I get limited game-time so whenever I do, I prefer to spend it on live. Will try and report any pertinent findings (but dont expect ACT). Cheers!
Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Question to DEVs: did you lowered the difficult on the HE on IWD??? i'm asking this due i had a really hard time before this patch (on test) doing the Totem one.... and now is easy as hell...
That is interesting. The Totem in the Pass was quite hard solo as GWF and nearly impossible as a GF. Wonder how its now
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Let us all take a moment of silence for all those Fighter's of Great Weaponry. All those who praised they are gods among men, who top the charts, and belong to thy following of Synergy. For they have fallen and will never be forgotten.
*lowers head*
Thank you.
The time has come for us to move forward in this new era. The era of the Hunter.
I know there are people who only play "viable/FotM" classes. Those people however do not exist for me, I play for fun. They might gank me in open PVP, it'll be as if NPCs killed me. I dont care what the end result will be for the GWF, I've been with it since beta and as long as they dont take my cool a$$ giant sword and sexy armor away I'll play the class and enjoy it.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Question to DEVs: did you lowered the difficult on the HE on IWD??? i'm asking this due i had a really hard time before this patch (on test) doing the Totem one.... and now is easy as hell...
Are your stats the same or did you copy your character again? A few GWFs reported the opposite with the GWF changes.
The 5-10% downgrade is a joke right? I can guarantee you if you do this the gwf class will become the useless class it once was. Please reconsider this. Also a lot(not all) these changes ruin the PvE fun for gwf. Trust me, sprint is useless, we have no choice but to tank most damage on PvE and PvP( Especially for players with a less than average internet connection). It's almost as if we are being forced back into the sentinel skill tree. You guy must realize its not easy work changing and re specing everything. We always do this after ever Module update a lot of my friends left because of this. I have wasted so much AD just re specing and buying new armor just to keep up with the updates. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm complaining but I'm really tired of redoing everything I have worked hard for.
marcoavaraujoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited June 2014
How can you take away the only defense of GWF that way? I have a GWF Destroyer PVE and tested the proposed changes in the Anniversary event and is ridiculous, with the activated unstopable died to 4 enemies. I imagine a low level GWF will be impossible to up alone, will die every 3 hits. Play since the beta and went through all the worst phases of GWF PVE and honestly it will kill him. If these changes materialize unfortunately will be leaving the game.
Heavyduty - GWF Destroyer PvP Fanatico - CW Renegade PvP(Learning to play) Black Death - GWF Destroyer PvE(Retired for now)
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brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
I imagine a low level GWF will be impossible to up alone, will die every 3 hits.
And yet other classes leveled without it. GWF can sprint, which is technically faster than the slides/teleport/dodges the other classes have. You just have to start using it instead of standing in the red. With these changes it will require some adjustment to the way the class is played and it makes a clear distinction between being DPS heavy or a tank.
Have to say, with some basic PTS testing, very concerned for GWF balance in PvP now. Think this went too far the other way. I was never one to abuse Roar, specced out as soon as I saw the bug. Further, always believed that a trade-off of survival for damage is fair. I like adjustments to Unstoppable damage mitigation, but not the Unstoppable heal as well; I like the change to stun from prones, but am concerned the stun time will be too short.
Damage output in Sentinel seems laughable, and when matched with stuns on high-Tenacity players, we'll not be able to stop enemies in PvP from escaping us always. Now with a Threatening Rush cap, we can't catch up to them other than with Sprint, and Stam will be eaten up very quickly most likely here, even with full feats.
What's concerning is not the majority of tweaks, it's the 'categorical' nature of them - the integrated nature of them across three key PvP disciplines: mobility, burst damage, and survivability (as opposed to 2 out of 3 of these critical categories for successful PvP viability, let's say). Leaving Sent builds off the table for PvP. Likewise, Instigator continues to show little to any viability in PvP (doesn't support burst damage or survivability, feels more like a wannabe CC'er spec).
We will see tons of GWF Destroyers running around, getting kited, and utterly shredded as they are paper tigers. We'll be great in PvE. PvP, this class is currently far beyond balanced. Recommendation: Up burst damage for Sentinels, while removing their mobility and survivability, or make Destroyers a bit more survivable.
If we go to live with the changes I've seen on PTS, my guess is this class won't be played much in PvP anymore. And not just by the FOTM'ers but by people who truly bring creativity to the role on the battlefield.
like i said for what i've seen so far, they've only buffed classes to only nerf them afterwards... it's like a cyrcle of power...
"this month CW will be on top" "next month TR will be on top " and so on . . . this is useless... how can the 30% damage resistance will help the gwf? as he is low on stamina, and more than 2 second doesn't last, it doesn't have any benefits as the cw/tr/dc/hr/gf can dodge / block when they want... what should i do ? when he's preparing to hit me with ice knife i run in circles? it's the gameplay of the gwf will be like one of the benny hills movies..
this is my last post as it's like i'm talkin with a imaginary person:
Unstopable for destroyer : make it to 15-35% and leave the damage as they ahve
Unstopable for sentinels : make it 25-50% and fix the restoring strike, and fix the weapon master for the buff to stay at least 3 seconds.
Takedown/Frontlines let them stay prone
nerf ROAR , so it does only 1 thing: i accept the stun part as the stun lock is useless ...
if you made the recharge of Determination slower, make the Unstopable last longer...you said tankier GWF for sentinel, unstopable lasting longer is better.
either way it doesn't matter at all..i am afraid to even look on the other classes nerf, cause what i've seen here is just ridiculous... you even nerfed the damage of the at wills, so much of a brawler character... i'm just just amazed , even more of that, i 'm amazed of the people who's posting here like they've tested and come with that sayn " ah it's good, that's a great idea"
maybe you should give the gwf some ballons and some confetti and a clown hair... maybe he can entertain other characters in game... that would be enough of a nerf, doesn't satisfy people?
oh and not to say, i wonder about opressor CW when they 1 shot kill gwf , when they'll use highvizier+blackice weapons + ring of dexterous/sinister , i wonder what kind of damage they'll deal to the "tanky gwf" ... we'll see you on the update, when people will start complaining again .
And yet other classes leveled without it. GWF can sprint, which is technically faster than the slides/teleport/dodges the other classes have. You just have to start using it instead of standing in the red. With these changes it will require some adjustment to the way the class is played and it makes a clear distinction between being DPS heavy or a tank.
You mean other classes that have self heals, and ranged attacks and ways to root/hold enemies?
You can't kill things with a GWF at range, or while running around. At some point you actually do have to facetank some stuff, and that's what being part defender is - it means soaking some damage.
No one is asking for the GWF to be the king of all tanks, but it needs to be survivable and needs to be able to handle the thick of the fight or the class will go back to it's state at launch where it was awful.
No amount of nerfing the GWF is going to fix the GF - the GF suffers from having a "Tank" identity in a game environment that has zero use for actual tanking due to encounter design.
The only things this game's content requires are:
> Gear Score
> Ability to do damage or control mobs or be a force multiplier (buffs/debuffs)
> Not die alot
Comments
Probably most PVPers will reroll to HR or TR, and most PVErs to HR. It was nice being a GWF at launch, people didn't even know what your abilities were, the class was so rarely seen. Alright so only good friends and loyal guildies would take you to dungeons or PVP, but think of this as an opportunity to test the strength of your ingame relationships.
Edit: having a Euro connection, I will be forced to spec out of IV. No way with Eurolag will a 3 charges/9 second Threatening Rush be any use to me. I will mourn that amazing, beautiful yet now worthless skill with a glass of Merlot.
why it should takedown/FLs stay to prone? because of control resist that's why , and because logic.. these 2 skills should be stay as they are, gwf are still killable, they aren't like the old gwf with alot of regen, nerfing their damage for what reason? how would that help in pvp ? they already do little crits on pvp spec players. only roar should've been nerfed either they've remove the stun lock skills or the stun .. one of that , they chose the stun for no reason ... what logic is this? remove stun from roar, and put it on takedown and frontline surge? is there any change in this update? making frontline hit less ? this doesn't help, as it was hittin enough or what? flourish hits 3x crits on a target, frontline surge hits 1 of those crits on 5 targets at most ... so makin it to hit less how would that help ? ibs most crit is 10k , takedown will be around 2,5k and frontline 4k , how can i beat a hr/cw/tr/dc/gf ? with this less damage?
Ive said this for a LONG time. That there are alot of bad GWFs which unstoppable makes up for their lack of play, but there are also good GWFs who take advantage of unstoppable correctly...
Which is why im not against nerfing unstoppable, im not against nerfing damage, or even prones but nerfing them ALL is what is stupid.
If unstoppable was dropped to only 15-30%, if takedown was brought BACK to normal damage + prone, roar is fixed so thats not CC anymore, Front Line can remain a stun (although buffed up to 2 seconds IMO) Unstoppable REcovery has already been hit by HD now (as it should)
I think youll see alot less skill-less GWFs and the ones that can, will play good.
This is a MAJOR part of the problem I agree. Its fundamentally a flawed match making system which tried to "Even out teams" by taking high ELO players pairing them with low ELO players to make a balanced team.
So what you end up having - and this happens to me ALL the time, is a 7-8k GS TR with zero weapon enchants and blues, and I am a 17k GWF GS... Well, what do you think happens to that TR on my team? He gets LIT UP by the other high ELO players that are my "counterparts" to balance the teams.
I have played against the BEST CWs in the game as a GWF, this is what happens and why GWF nerfs honestly are not needed.
- I run to them as the CC me, and damage me. I get enough determination to pop unstoppable and as I get in range to deal damage they blink, blink again, blink again, blink again and oh look! Im out of unstoppable and they do more damage, more CC and Potentially Ice Knife which prones me.
How do GWFs win this fight? Roar. As I get close, I wait for their 1st or second blink and I roar in the blink frames as they are getting ready to blink again. This ONE move allows me to threat rush them and IBS them for anywhere from 7-16k Damage on average.
remove Roar/Frontline/takedown - well GL catching a CW.... Unstoppable is 5-10%? LOL so now your forced to Sentinel because CWs wont even blink, theyll just DPS through unstoppable.
Again, this is only against the best CWs in game, and to show WHY ALL of these changes were not needed.
With roar gone players can either slot front line with DOUBLE the CD and it doesnt build determination, or they keep roar making it really hard to still catch. Thats the tradeoff.
The ones complaining about the dumb damage, are the low GS players matched against high GS players to "balance teams". Sorry, high ELO versus low ELO - eventhough there is a difference, on a large scale I think youll find most high ELO players have high GS too FYI...
Maybe change the ELO/Que system so it filters all players into two camps based on GS, THEN use the ELO system to work....
Very Well said. Agreed!
"Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
mount
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer "
This just tells GWFs that they won't be able to die if they know how to run. If they are CC Imune while sprinting they'll feel like they can face tank anything then run anytime, and don't forget the damage resistance... Anything I'm missing? The increased time to actually get on a mount..... This lets GWFs just attempt to kill and almost kills but is about to be killed so runs for a potion can't be CCed and the ridiculous mount time increase stops players from being able to chase after them so then you have a fully healed GWF and an exhausted probably almost killed other class. Now I understand before GWFs who had no idea how to use sprint were lacking in being able to face tank everything (no actually they weren't #rephrase) They're going to have some trouble face tanking everything so I'm not saying leave sprint how it is (However I don't have a problem with that) I'm saying give them a backflip or something in place of that. Sprint and CC Imunity plus damage resist just means more unkillable GWFs. Now I'm pretty sure this buff is in the name of PVE but Chris you must think about how it's gonna affect people in a whole not just one sided.
Okay GWFs you can't hate me for this, I know many of you are angels that la de da all over the place but think about the abusers... The ones who used roar and knew it was glitched, the ones who respecced to destroyer when they found out they were OP, heck think of the HRs who are dying for medicine, who died for the combatant set, **** this all think about the PERMA STEALTH TRs... I MEAN THE PERMA STEALTH TRs... Okay Don't leave the post just yet, bare with me so what's to stop the GWFs from sprinting when they see a CW knowing they always open up with Entangling Force, they just sprint around and around then prone prone CC prone prone -DEATH-. Okay I know the counterclaim "Every dodge can avoid CCs", Yes to that but they have to be careful with their dodges because after a dodge their character takes an hour to get up from the dodge (TR) or an hour to recover from their master dodge (CW) Or an hour to finish stepping out of the way (DC) or an hour finishing their half assed dodge (HR) or can easily be slowly walked around (GF). Imagine, you finally got entangling force charged up all happy and stuff and the smart GWF just avoids it with much more sprint left to just avoid it. I mean it doesn't have a 10hour casting time the GWF can just hold Shift real quick press the up arrow then let it go and prone you untl it's fully charged which won't take that long (because they literally probably only used up 1/10000000000000000000) (Yes tapping the 0 button was fun 00000) Then imagine the GWF is sprinting away after just killing your team mate but he's so close to death and you know **** well he'll beat the living **** out of you at full health so you decide that you need to take him out. He has damage resistance (30%) CC imunity and you have the 15 bagagillion hour mount cool down now you're gonna go contest that mode with sweat pouring down you head hoping he doesn't have a 200000% Mount and doesn't come until you're done capping or your whole team is their (which is some dumb stuff).
So I hope you guys understand why I think it'd be better to give them a dodge instead of this cazy buff to Sprint. If you guys disagree or have any concerns or I'm wrong in some way then please do not hesitate to tell me I'm wrong. Unless without explanation or your gonna be like "Umm no keep sprint easier to kill no dodge" or "WE NEED THIS SPRINT SUCKS RIGHT NOW ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME" (That one because I obviously said give you guys a back flip or something)
When CW, HR, etc., sprint away from combat they then use ranged attacks on things. The GWF cannot do this.
The simplest fix is a compromise, we see what you are going for with Sentinel.
Cutting unstoppable in half is still a huge cut. Cut in half, multiple by 2 for Sentinel's Aegis.
Retains the current feel of the class, grants improvement for going Sentinel, and allows non-sentinels to be able to at least hang out in the thick of the fight where they are supposed to be.
Please ask yourselves how much this change is for people playing at 10.5 to 12.5 GS as opposed to massively geared characters going well beyond what your current content supports breaking 15k and going all the way to 20K GS.
10.5 - 12.5 k GWFs are not roflstomping rooms of endgame dungeons on their own.
A very good point. I actually tested this, grabbed a full set of level 60 blues and some rank 4 enchants, which ended up with my GS around 12k (I still had boons, but unequipped my artifacts and used white/green companions to compensate). I didn't feel overpowered at all. I couldn't solo rooms, and I certainly wasn't unkillable. A lot of the problem is that more and more of us are outgearing the current content. At 18k I think it is reasonable that I can mostly solo content intended for 8-12k players. Until we have content that matches our gear level, we can't really say if we are overpowered or not. I certainly didn't feel overpowered at 12k, which is at or around what a fairly new 60 would be at these days.
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
The problem with sprint was never in use, in theory it's a brilliant escape mechanism and very simple and easy to use. The problem was that it didn't update your position to the server until you released shift. Thus if you released shift a fraction late due to lag or whatever you would get hit by everything that you supposedly just ran away from.
The takedown nerf is needed. It honestly hits too hard for a prone that is instant cast plus had a range plus on a 6 sec counter if you miss. If anything is a crutch it is that. Almost guaranteed that you land your biggest hitting encounter.
It actually has poor range. The illusion of range was because it's animation was longer than the actual cast time, so you would be hit, the server would acknowledge this but wouldn't send the information that you need to be prone you until the takedown animation was over, at which point the player would be on the other side of the node and go, "WTF, I'm nowhere near that guy! How did that hit me?"
Why wouldn't I post with weapon master stacks up? I'm at full weapon master stacks within 2 seconds of starting combat, and stay that way through the entire combat. Posting without stacks up would be misrepresenting my characters abilities in combat.
That said - it is pertinent to the thread. If these are the stats I get from playing a sentinel with far less damage output than a destroyer, than a destroyer should have far less defense. As it stands, switching to destroyer loses a few percent DR and about 10-15 percent deflect - maybe 10% or a little over total mitigation. And a destroyer does far more than 10% more damage than me. So yes - destroyers do need a nerf to unstoppable, and yes - it needs to be a lot more than 5-10% less damage resistance. If a destroyer is doing 50% more damage than me, he needs 50% less mitigation. Its called balance.
I've been playing a GWF since beta, and I firmly support the change to unstoppable. A destroyer GWF is a DPS build, not an off-tank. If you want to off-tank, roll a sentinel.
- B
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer,
The fix is simple Fix Roar to function as it's intended to work, Fix the healing depression on Unstoppable so it works as intended. Adjust prone times to balance the rest out...... Simple
Scrape the rest of the changes and everyone should be happy.
I do a massive amount of DPS with almost a 19k Gear score and I cannot kill fully PvP geared players in one rotation, only players not equally geared, which is in and of it's self balance.
I reiterate outside of FIXING what needs fixed you are trying to adjust and make the solution far more complicated than it truly is.
GS is funky anyways, especially comparing TR with GWF. My GWF in greens/blues with only 2 purple is higher GS than my TR in T2.
I've tested GWF on preview. One of the reasons the class will not function in PVP with the changes as they currently are is because IBS can be dodged following either a frontline or takedown.
You see a lot of people complaining about various aspects of the nerfs, but this one has gone unnoticed, probably because people haven't been testing them very often.
It also means that threatening rush, even if a GWF has the charges after catching their target, can't be used after a stun while still getting the next encounter up. It means GWFs lose their +15% damage from marked targets.
If a class has even +5% cc resist, so +15% from tenacity or more, they can dodge IBS if they have good ping. If they have typical tenacity of PVP geared players or the +10% cc racial, they can reliably dodge it every time.
If we start talking actual numbers using typical GWF PVP gear during a typical combo: frontline/roar -> takedown -> IBS,
2-4k from threatening rush x2
1-3k from takedown
4-13k from IBS
that is 7-20k damage lost on every combo as things are currently on the PTR. The only class that can't avoid the damage from the IBS is other GWFs.
People who plays this class, and plays it well, and knows the ins and outs of these changes. Can very accurately tell you what these changes will do wtihout even needed to test them. the tests that come up only confirm exactly what many of us are saying.
We're sitting here telling what is needed to make the class better and balanced and how these changes wrecks the class as a whole fundamentally and literally. Every thing we are saying is being proven in tests. And we know exactly how these changes are going to affect us and the over all game when this goes live.
That is interesting. The Totem in the Pass was quite hard solo as GWF and nearly impossible as a GF. Wonder how its now
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I know there are people who only play "viable/FotM" classes. Those people however do not exist for me, I play for fun. They might gank me in open PVP, it'll be as if NPCs killed me. I dont care what the end result will be for the GWF, I've been with it since beta and as long as they dont take my cool a$$ giant sword and sexy armor away I'll play the class and enjoy it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Are your stats the same or did you copy your character again? A few GWFs reported the opposite with the GWF changes.
Fanatico - CW Renegade PvP(Learning to play)
Black Death - GWF Destroyer PvE(Retired for now)
And yet other classes leveled without it. GWF can sprint, which is technically faster than the slides/teleport/dodges the other classes have. You just have to start using it instead of standing in the red. With these changes it will require some adjustment to the way the class is played and it makes a clear distinction between being DPS heavy or a tank.
"this month CW will be on top" "next month TR will be on top " and so on . . . this is useless... how can the 30% damage resistance will help the gwf? as he is low on stamina, and more than 2 second doesn't last, it doesn't have any benefits as the cw/tr/dc/hr/gf can dodge / block when they want... what should i do ? when he's preparing to hit me with ice knife i run in circles? it's the gameplay of the gwf will be like one of the benny hills movies..
this is my last post as it's like i'm talkin with a imaginary person:
Unstopable for destroyer : make it to 15-35% and leave the damage as they ahve
Unstopable for sentinels : make it 25-50% and fix the restoring strike, and fix the weapon master for the buff to stay at least 3 seconds.
Takedown/Frontlines let them stay prone
nerf ROAR , so it does only 1 thing: i accept the stun part as the stun lock is useless ...
if you made the recharge of Determination slower, make the Unstopable last longer...you said tankier GWF for sentinel, unstopable lasting longer is better.
either way it doesn't matter at all..i am afraid to even look on the other classes nerf, cause what i've seen here is just ridiculous... you even nerfed the damage of the at wills, so much of a brawler character... i'm just just amazed , even more of that, i 'm amazed of the people who's posting here like they've tested and come with that sayn " ah it's good, that's a great idea"
maybe you should give the gwf some ballons and some confetti and a clown hair... maybe he can entertain other characters in game... that would be enough of a nerf, doesn't satisfy people?
oh and not to say, i wonder about opressor CW when they 1 shot kill gwf , when they'll use highvizier+blackice weapons + ring of dexterous/sinister , i wonder what kind of damage they'll deal to the "tanky gwf" ... we'll see you on the update, when people will start complaining again .
You mean other classes that have self heals, and ranged attacks and ways to root/hold enemies?
You can't kill things with a GWF at range, or while running around. At some point you actually do have to facetank some stuff, and that's what being part defender is - it means soaking some damage.
No one is asking for the GWF to be the king of all tanks, but it needs to be survivable and needs to be able to handle the thick of the fight or the class will go back to it's state at launch where it was awful.
No amount of nerfing the GWF is going to fix the GF - the GF suffers from having a "Tank" identity in a game environment that has zero use for actual tanking due to encounter design.
The only things this game's content requires are:
> Gear Score
> Ability to do damage or control mobs or be a force multiplier (buffs/debuffs)
> Not die alot