Question to DEVs: did you lowered the difficult on the HE on IWD??? i'm asking this due i had a really hard time before this patch (on test) doing the Totem one.... and now is easy as hell...
That is interesting. The Totem in the Pass was quite hard solo as GWF and nearly impossible as a GF. Wonder how its now
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Let us all take a moment of silence for all those Fighter's of Great Weaponry. All those who praised they are gods among men, who top the charts, and belong to thy following of Synergy. For they have fallen and will never be forgotten.
*lowers head*
Thank you.
The time has come for us to move forward in this new era. The era of the Hunter.
I know there are people who only play "viable/FotM" classes. Those people however do not exist for me, I play for fun. They might gank me in open PVP, it'll be as if NPCs killed me. I dont care what the end result will be for the GWF, I've been with it since beta and as long as they dont take my cool a$$ giant sword and sexy armor away I'll play the class and enjoy it.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Question to DEVs: did you lowered the difficult on the HE on IWD??? i'm asking this due i had a really hard time before this patch (on test) doing the Totem one.... and now is easy as hell...
Are your stats the same or did you copy your character again? A few GWFs reported the opposite with the GWF changes.
The 5-10% downgrade is a joke right? I can guarantee you if you do this the gwf class will become the useless class it once was. Please reconsider this. Also a lot(not all) these changes ruin the PvE fun for gwf. Trust me, sprint is useless, we have no choice but to tank most damage on PvE and PvP( Especially for players with a less than average internet connection). It's almost as if we are being forced back into the sentinel skill tree. You guy must realize its not easy work changing and re specing everything. We always do this after ever Module update a lot of my friends left because of this. I have wasted so much AD just re specing and buying new armor just to keep up with the updates. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm complaining but I'm really tired of redoing everything I have worked hard for.
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marcoavaraujoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited June 2014
How can you take away the only defense of GWF that way? I have a GWF Destroyer PVE and tested the proposed changes in the Anniversary event and is ridiculous, with the activated unstopable died to 4 enemies. I imagine a low level GWF will be impossible to up alone, will die every 3 hits. Play since the beta and went through all the worst phases of GWF PVE and honestly it will kill him. If these changes materialize unfortunately will be leaving the game.
Heavyduty - GWF Destroyer PvP Fanatico - CW Renegade PvP(Learning to play) Black Death - GWF Destroyer PvE(Retired for now)
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brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
I imagine a low level GWF will be impossible to up alone, will die every 3 hits.
And yet other classes leveled without it. GWF can sprint, which is technically faster than the slides/teleport/dodges the other classes have. You just have to start using it instead of standing in the red. With these changes it will require some adjustment to the way the class is played and it makes a clear distinction between being DPS heavy or a tank.
Have to say, with some basic PTS testing, very concerned for GWF balance in PvP now. Think this went too far the other way. I was never one to abuse Roar, specced out as soon as I saw the bug. Further, always believed that a trade-off of survival for damage is fair. I like adjustments to Unstoppable damage mitigation, but not the Unstoppable heal as well; I like the change to stun from prones, but am concerned the stun time will be too short.
Damage output in Sentinel seems laughable, and when matched with stuns on high-Tenacity players, we'll not be able to stop enemies in PvP from escaping us always. Now with a Threatening Rush cap, we can't catch up to them other than with Sprint, and Stam will be eaten up very quickly most likely here, even with full feats.
What's concerning is not the majority of tweaks, it's the 'categorical' nature of them - the integrated nature of them across three key PvP disciplines: mobility, burst damage, and survivability (as opposed to 2 out of 3 of these critical categories for successful PvP viability, let's say). Leaving Sent builds off the table for PvP. Likewise, Instigator continues to show little to any viability in PvP (doesn't support burst damage or survivability, feels more like a wannabe CC'er spec).
We will see tons of GWF Destroyers running around, getting kited, and utterly shredded as they are paper tigers. We'll be great in PvE. PvP, this class is currently far beyond balanced. Recommendation: Up burst damage for Sentinels, while removing their mobility and survivability, or make Destroyers a bit more survivable.
If we go to live with the changes I've seen on PTS, my guess is this class won't be played much in PvP anymore. And not just by the FOTM'ers but by people who truly bring creativity to the role on the battlefield.
like i said for what i've seen so far, they've only buffed classes to only nerf them afterwards... it's like a cyrcle of power...
"this month CW will be on top" "next month TR will be on top " and so on . . . this is useless... how can the 30% damage resistance will help the gwf? as he is low on stamina, and more than 2 second doesn't last, it doesn't have any benefits as the cw/tr/dc/hr/gf can dodge / block when they want... what should i do ? when he's preparing to hit me with ice knife i run in circles? it's the gameplay of the gwf will be like one of the benny hills movies..
this is my last post as it's like i'm talkin with a imaginary person:
Unstopable for destroyer : make it to 15-35% and leave the damage as they ahve
Unstopable for sentinels : make it 25-50% and fix the restoring strike, and fix the weapon master for the buff to stay at least 3 seconds.
Takedown/Frontlines let them stay prone
nerf ROAR , so it does only 1 thing: i accept the stun part as the stun lock is useless ...
if you made the recharge of Determination slower, make the Unstopable last longer...you said tankier GWF for sentinel, unstopable lasting longer is better.
either way it doesn't matter at all..i am afraid to even look on the other classes nerf, cause what i've seen here is just ridiculous... you even nerfed the damage of the at wills, so much of a brawler character... i'm just just amazed , even more of that, i 'm amazed of the people who's posting here like they've tested and come with that sayn " ah it's good, that's a great idea"
maybe you should give the gwf some ballons and some confetti and a clown hair... maybe he can entertain other characters in game... that would be enough of a nerf, doesn't satisfy people?
oh and not to say, i wonder about opressor CW when they 1 shot kill gwf , when they'll use highvizier+blackice weapons + ring of dexterous/sinister , i wonder what kind of damage they'll deal to the "tanky gwf" ... we'll see you on the update, when people will start complaining again .
And yet other classes leveled without it. GWF can sprint, which is technically faster than the slides/teleport/dodges the other classes have. You just have to start using it instead of standing in the red. With these changes it will require some adjustment to the way the class is played and it makes a clear distinction between being DPS heavy or a tank.
You mean other classes that have self heals, and ranged attacks and ways to root/hold enemies?
You can't kill things with a GWF at range, or while running around. At some point you actually do have to facetank some stuff, and that's what being part defender is - it means soaking some damage.
No one is asking for the GWF to be the king of all tanks, but it needs to be survivable and needs to be able to handle the thick of the fight or the class will go back to it's state at launch where it was awful.
No amount of nerfing the GWF is going to fix the GF - the GF suffers from having a "Tank" identity in a game environment that has zero use for actual tanking due to encounter design.
The only things this game's content requires are:
> Gear Score
> Ability to do damage or control mobs or be a force multiplier (buffs/debuffs)
> Not die alot
like i said for what i've seen so far, they've only buffed classes to only nerf them afterwards... it's like a cyrcle of power...
"this month CW will be on top" "next month TR will be on top " and so on . . . this is useless... how can the 30% damage resistance will help the gwf? as he is low on stamina, and more than 2 second doesn't last, it doesn't have any benefits as the cw/tr/dc/hr/gf can dodge / block when they want... what should i do ? when he's preparing to hit me with ice knife i run in circles? it's the gameplay of the gwf will be like one of the benny hills movies..
This is what I dont like as well, now it becomes a game of "wait until they daily" and sprint. It used to be, GWFs were too powerful to attack while in unstoppable primarily because of control.
You cant control them, let them get close enough and they can control you and them are able to dish out alot of damage.
Now classes wont have good "times" if you will to attack since you dont know when hes gonna be sprint or not, but it doesnt even matter because the second a GWF gets near you, sprint/unstoppable or not, you can easily just blink/dodge away.
Clearly whoever is calling the shots on these changes has not played a GWF versus a HR 1v1 or even a GOOD CW in pvp. It doesnt matter if they cant control you, they dont need to, just slowly DPS you while you constantly run around trying to chase them getting 1-2 at wills off if your lucky or they mess up.
Even with the sprint change, 5-10% unstoppable is STILL too low...
And to all the whiners talking about PVE and standing in the RED. Part of the issue there too is rubberbanding is so bad with certain attacks and GWFs have longer animation times on their attacks and even sprinting is so buggy youll get smacked still. Ive played GWF since beta as well, but you dont see me lecturing people basically saying L2P. GWFs were good then, then they buffed them more, but even back then (when we didnt have threat rush) we had tankiness AND control. So eventhough damage sucked then, you could still be a real threat because you could flourish->takedown->IBS in PVP.
Now you cant even takedown IBS because the animation time on IBS is longer than the stun on takedown and they can shift out of it to avoid damage.
BTW, IF you are removing GWF control for PVP then you REALLY need to tighten down the window in which things can be dodged with shift. I cant tell you how many times I use encounters and almost a full second later they shift dodge and avoid ot completely...
If you remove CC for GWFs, remove unstopped tankiness, then you need to tighten down that window. If GWFs need to pre-emptively strike and cross their fingers for a hit, other classes need to learn to pre-emptively dodge and cross theirs, otherwise its worthless
This change feels appropriate. Before, high DPS destroyers were as tanky as a properly geared GF despite having very good offensive feats, now they still get the full benefit of offensive part of Unstoppable, but also need to rely on correct positioning if they want to survive. I still feel like Destroyer's capstone should be slightly buffed on the offensive part to compensate.
Sentinels will still play the "tanky" part and feel no different than before.
Instigators will continue to not exist, as they don't have the survivability of the Sentinel nor the damage of the Destroyer :P
Most of their feats are a mish-mash of effects without any direction (they should be reworked for high mobility and get i.e. high damage resistance/control immunity when sprinting, along with some good damage buffs for a few seconds after sprinting)
no no no no no!
Destroyers dont need more damage, they need more survivability. People really dont understand this and it amazes me.
For PVE:
ALOT of really good GWFs are outgearing the current dungeons so this is PART of the reason why GWFs can seem so strong. Even on LIVE if you took an averaged 12k-13k GS GWF into a dungeon hes not gonna be "uber tanky" as the 16-17k GS GWFs are.
SINCE this is a balance for BOTH PVP and PVE you have to look at both, and because of the outgearing issue you CANT just look at dungeons like T2 and say "well that destroyer whose 16k can just facetank" Well yeah he completely outgears the dungeon... What do you epxect?!
Since you have to take into account PVP as well, THAT is where the numbers need to be fine tuned. For PVE its MUCH more of a "gray line" primarily because there is no healing depression. So GWFs get DOUBLE the temp HP AND if they take unstoppable recovery DOUBLE the healing GWFs in PVP get.
So dont look at a 15k+ GS GWF run a T2 or even CN and say "now it feels good". Go run a PVP match against other 15k-17k+ GS players like an HR or CW and judge the tankiness. Like I said, PVP is a MUCH finer line so it has to be balanced around PVP. Otherwise it may be "ok" for PVE but utterly worthless for PVP and you wouldnt even know.
For pre-mod 1 and Mod 1 Sentinel GWFs were realy tanky and dealt OK damage, Destroyers were worthless in PVP because they were not tanky enough.
Then they release Mod 2 and give GWFs Iron Vanguard and gave GWFs a way to MARK their own targets in PVP -> Making
powerful challenge" a MASSIVE DPS buff in PVP to Sent GWFs. They Also got FrontLine which enabled amazing combos involving Mark and "poweful challenge"
THEN they say "Sents are too powerful" so they nerf Sent Damage but give more damage to DEstroyers.
Well THEN people say "Destroyers are too tanky for the damage they deal"... Before they buffed Destroyer damage, why did noone play Destoryer? BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT TANKY ENOUGH!!!!
SO WHY IS THE SOLUTION TO NERF THEIR TANKINESS? WHEN THE PROBLEM AROSE FROM THEM HAVING ROAR WITH 50% REDUCED CD THATS A BUGGED SKILLS COMBINED WITH TOO MUCH DAMAGE?
SOLUTION: SCALE DAMAGE BACK A TAD, FIX ROAR and now you just balanced the class.
Destroyers dont need more damage, they need more survivability. People really dont understand this and it amazes me.
^ This. This. This. This. I have no Idea why they can't just understand this concept. Their solution to nerf the only defense the gwf has is baffling. I only pray that they actually listen to our feedback.
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GWFs with more survivability and less damage are Sentinels. GWFs with more damage and less survivability are Destroyers. You can't have both.
Less survivability is an understatement in the new update. Destroyers are literally left with no defense and get killed within seconds in mobs. We're not asking for both, but it would still be nice to not die in a matter of small hits when playing destroyer, which is whats currently happening in the new Module update.
So hilariously, sprint >>> unstoppable. What a farce. I say that as someone with a 18k PvP GWF and a 16k PvE GWF.
The problem with sprint was never in use, in theory it's a brilliant escape mechanism and very simple and easy to use. The problem was that it didn't update your position to the server until you released shift. Thus if you released shift a fraction late due to lag or whatever you would get hit by everything that you supposedly just ran away from.
HR dodge does the same thing. you hit it twice so that you are tagged at the other location. And yes I have one of each it works. Just spends more stamina.
@hbreed72 , if you help to improve the class , it's like you'll be Jack Ketch that'll give the finishing blow!!!
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited June 2014
AT this point it seems to me , you are making vanguard usless to play, by removing any and everything that had any effectivness for the GWF pvp build. Why not just remove the two paragon paths from each class and start again? No one is going to use it, so why bother.
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sidewazeMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 31Arc User
You must have never played a different class. It works the same way with the other classes and their dodges. The main difference is sprint actually speeds up movement whereas the dodges don't. This is why the GWF is the most mobile class in the game.
Please don't make naive assumptions about other players, you don't know anything about me, nor the classes I've brought to 60, nor my PvP experience. Other classes can dodge to avoid attacks. GWFs don't. Both sprint and dodge take Stamina yes, but using up Stam for other classes in PvP comes with a much higher overall opportunity to mitigate high levels of damage. Hence the 30% change in this patch. Great we're a third of the way there.
GFs don't have a sprint or dodge mechanic. They have encounters and a set bonus that can increase their mobility which isn't the same.
Per my post, I didn't say sprint or dodge. I said powers that provide gap closure - charges (bull chargea short range knockback) and lunging strike a long-distance gap closer. Both with damage at the end of them versus sprint which eats up stamina and does no damage.
Speaking of classes we play - do you play a GWF? Have you played with the changes on the PTS? Do you have an opinion based on experience or just don't like your face being eaten by the class?
AT this point it seems to me , you are making vanguard usless to play, by removing any and everything that had any effectivness for the GWF pvp build. Why not just remove the two paragon paths from each class and start again? No one is going to use it, so why bother.
IV was the GF Tank path, that you guys received and it was buffed into a DPS path for you. We were given the SM path but it was debuffed for us...
I think they want the IV path to be for survivability / control and the are returning it to a Tank path for Both classes, and are buffing SM for GF making it a semi DPS path for us! So You will do a bit less damage in IV but I think you will still be very powerful! I do not have a GWf so I say hop on preview see whats doing...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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sidewazeMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 31Arc User
i personally am happy with the GWF changing because at the moment it requires 2 brain cells to be the paingiver and immovable object at the same time while other classes struggle to get a group and most of the time they only get to run anything with guildies and close friends.
Thanks much for your pve-only POV. For those of us who PvP the combination damage, resistance, and mobility nerfage is going to really hurt the class and force us into paper tiger specs.
Other classes can dodge to avoid attacks. GWFs don't.
But now they will want to. Conserve your stamina for sprint for when you need it like the other classes do with their dodges. Watch your charges of threatening rush and use those gap closers strategically. The game just got harder for you and you will just have to improve to succeed. Look at it as a challenge. People won't be able to tell you you "faceroll" wins anymore.
Feeback on the changes to GWF based on CN preview run
<snip>
i'd like to mention that i do not play PVP with my GWF
<snip>
<snip> GWF point of view.: with these changes the wicked strike rubberband needs to be fixed i tried using it and it just got me killed everytime i had to sprint out of danger.
<snip>
<snip> i recommend to keep the CC immunity of sprint but remove it's damage resistance buff whilst at the same time increasing the DR of unstoppable to a 15-25% for destroyer spec. the current 5-10% is very low and dosen't allow the class to be enjoyed while playing it.
<snip>
<snip>
don't even wanna think about possible PVP senti specs with the current sprint on preview.
I read your entire post BTW, and I thought it was all good feedback. I wanted to highlight a few areas.
I would STRONGLY suggest, again, that the "fine tuning" of the GWF currently HAS to come from PVP. Your entire group drastically outgears CN and combined with that, as I mentioned before, PART of the major divide between PVE and PVP in testing GWFs is healing depression. While this affects all classes, I think the "fine line" has been crossed in PVP, while the PVE groups who out gear content wont feel the line as been crossed unless NEW PVE dungeons came out that were intended for players 15k+GS.
That said, I 100% Agree with Wicked Strike Banding that happens - this is causing a MAJOR issue in PVE DPS with Unstoppable Nerf.
I do also like you suggestion about Sprint+Unstoppable. Seeing as how they are intending to make Sprint somewhat defensive, I think this COULD work, my only fear - and I would want to test this, is with unstoppable + sprint it would make GWFs nearly un-controllable - which I dont know how I feel about that. Id almost be in favor of just granting Spring like 100% CC resistance meaning CC would be cut in half if used while sprinting.
Heck, Id even take Unstoppable at 15-30% and Unstoppable now only grants 200% CC resistance or something with Sprint keeping CC immunity. There is alot of ways to play that.
But I agree, Unstoppable needs to be brought back UP, I have been saying 15-30% but even 15-25% is fine too - its roughly the same thing.
Making Sprint THAT good though also makes me concerned with Sentinel GWFs. Id even say just buff up restoring strike benefits to Sent Capstone, remove the added DR to unstoppable (if brought back to 15-30%ish Sents will already be approaching DR hardcap anyways) and now they can use Sprint defensively as well.
I read your entire post BTW, and I thought it was all good feedback. I wanted to highlight a few areas.
I would STRONGLY suggest, again, that the "fine tuning" of the GWF currently HAS to come from PVP. Your entire group drastically outgears CN and combined with that, as I mentioned before, PART of the major divide between PVE and PVP in testing GWFs is healing depression. While this affects all classes, I think the "fine line" has been crossed in PVP, while the PVE groups who out gear content wont feel the line as been crossed unless NEW PVE dungeons came out that were intended for players 15k+GS.
That said, I 100% Agree with Wicked Strike Banding that happens - this is causing a MAJOR issue in PVE DPS with Unstoppable Nerf.
I do also like you suggestion about Sprint+Unstoppable. Seeing as how they are intending to make Sprint somewhat defensive, I think this COULD work, my only fear - and I would want to test this, is with unstoppable + sprint it would make GWFs nearly un-controllable - which I dont know how I feel about that. Id almost be in favor of just granting Spring like 100% CC resistance meaning CC would be cut in half if used while sprinting.
Heck, Id even take Unstoppable at 15-30% and Unstoppable now only grants 200% CC resistance or something with Sprint keeping CC immunity. There is alot of ways to play that.
But I agree, Unstoppable needs to be brought back UP, I have been saying 15-30% but even 15-25% is fine too - its roughly the same thing.
Making Sprint THAT good though also makes me concerned with Sentinel GWFs. Id even say just buff up restoring strike benefits to Sent Capstone, remove the added DR to unstoppable (if brought back to 15-30%ish Sents will already be approaching DR hardcap anyways) and now they can use Sprint defensively as well.
Im lost at what your saying... And even stacking 3k regen in PVP wont do anything since your SO far into Dim returns, that + healing depression wouldnt help at all....
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iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
3k regen comes out to just under 15% So, pointless. Also I doubt it would even be possible on a GWF.
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
for those saying takedown damage is ok:
my gwf named crystal (can check if you want) with 13k (rank 7, greater plague) can easily deal 8-10k takedown in pvp. i dont even want to know how much he wil deal with better gears. so for the sake of balance let s be realistic and let s try to fix all the REAL problems once for all or the problem will show up again in few months.
i read 2/4k ...well...that isnt even remotely true at all.
3k regen comes out to just under 15% So, pointless. Also I doubt it would even be possible on a GWF.
helm , feets purified + titan armour arms + titan weapon + purified knot , pvp dext/sinister as rings , purified belt and neck , 3 artefacts with regen + 250 boon = 2,7k regen + buff from madness 3k regen . alot of hp . alot of classes will be nerfed so they won't do the same damage... so we still be tanky as hell ..
helm , feets purified + titan armour arms + titan weapon + purified knot , pvp dext/sinister as rings , purified belt and neck , 3 artefacts with regen + 250 boon = 2,7k regen + buff from madness 3k regen . alot of hp . alot of classes will be nerfed so they won't do the same damage... so we still be tanky as hell ..
Guy you think 15% reg is much? 1) It's reduced to 7,5% due healing depression. 2) It's reduced to 3,75% of total health - or to be understandable: at 50% and less health it's capped -. So 3,75%/3s = 1,25%. That's of 50k health ~625hp/s. Or 1875hp every tick. And the damage ISN'T so hard reduced, that DPS is lower than 900! And i don't think, that you will achieve so much hp with so many blues.
Guy you think 15% reg is much? 1) It's reduced to 7,5% due healing depression. 2) It's reduced to 3,75% of total health - or to be understandable: at 50% and less health it's capped -. So 3,75%/3s = 1,25%. That's of 50k health ~625hp/s. Or 1875hp every tick. And the damage ISN'T so hard reduced, that DPS is lower than 900! And i don't think, that you will achieve so much hp with so many blues.
it's 3,1k/3 sec
and i've continued with the idea sayn about that stat Health Regen: 0%
and what blues?
Comments
That is interesting. The Totem in the Pass was quite hard solo as GWF and nearly impossible as a GF. Wonder how its now
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I know there are people who only play "viable/FotM" classes. Those people however do not exist for me, I play for fun. They might gank me in open PVP, it'll be as if NPCs killed me. I dont care what the end result will be for the GWF, I've been with it since beta and as long as they dont take my cool a$$ giant sword and sexy armor away I'll play the class and enjoy it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Are your stats the same or did you copy your character again? A few GWFs reported the opposite with the GWF changes.
Fanatico - CW Renegade PvP(Learning to play)
Black Death - GWF Destroyer PvE(Retired for now)
And yet other classes leveled without it. GWF can sprint, which is technically faster than the slides/teleport/dodges the other classes have. You just have to start using it instead of standing in the red. With these changes it will require some adjustment to the way the class is played and it makes a clear distinction between being DPS heavy or a tank.
"this month CW will be on top" "next month TR will be on top " and so on . . . this is useless... how can the 30% damage resistance will help the gwf? as he is low on stamina, and more than 2 second doesn't last, it doesn't have any benefits as the cw/tr/dc/hr/gf can dodge / block when they want... what should i do ? when he's preparing to hit me with ice knife i run in circles? it's the gameplay of the gwf will be like one of the benny hills movies..
this is my last post as it's like i'm talkin with a imaginary person:
Unstopable for destroyer : make it to 15-35% and leave the damage as they ahve
Unstopable for sentinels : make it 25-50% and fix the restoring strike, and fix the weapon master for the buff to stay at least 3 seconds.
Takedown/Frontlines let them stay prone
nerf ROAR , so it does only 1 thing: i accept the stun part as the stun lock is useless ...
if you made the recharge of Determination slower, make the Unstopable last longer...you said tankier GWF for sentinel, unstopable lasting longer is better.
either way it doesn't matter at all..i am afraid to even look on the other classes nerf, cause what i've seen here is just ridiculous... you even nerfed the damage of the at wills, so much of a brawler character... i'm just just amazed , even more of that, i 'm amazed of the people who's posting here like they've tested and come with that sayn " ah it's good, that's a great idea"
maybe you should give the gwf some ballons and some confetti and a clown hair... maybe he can entertain other characters in game... that would be enough of a nerf, doesn't satisfy people?
oh and not to say, i wonder about opressor CW when they 1 shot kill gwf , when they'll use highvizier+blackice weapons + ring of dexterous/sinister , i wonder what kind of damage they'll deal to the "tanky gwf" ... we'll see you on the update, when people will start complaining again .
You mean other classes that have self heals, and ranged attacks and ways to root/hold enemies?
You can't kill things with a GWF at range, or while running around. At some point you actually do have to facetank some stuff, and that's what being part defender is - it means soaking some damage.
No one is asking for the GWF to be the king of all tanks, but it needs to be survivable and needs to be able to handle the thick of the fight or the class will go back to it's state at launch where it was awful.
No amount of nerfing the GWF is going to fix the GF - the GF suffers from having a "Tank" identity in a game environment that has zero use for actual tanking due to encounter design.
The only things this game's content requires are:
> Gear Score
> Ability to do damage or control mobs or be a force multiplier (buffs/debuffs)
> Not die alot
This is what I dont like as well, now it becomes a game of "wait until they daily" and sprint. It used to be, GWFs were too powerful to attack while in unstoppable primarily because of control.
You cant control them, let them get close enough and they can control you and them are able to dish out alot of damage.
Now classes wont have good "times" if you will to attack since you dont know when hes gonna be sprint or not, but it doesnt even matter because the second a GWF gets near you, sprint/unstoppable or not, you can easily just blink/dodge away.
Clearly whoever is calling the shots on these changes has not played a GWF versus a HR 1v1 or even a GOOD CW in pvp. It doesnt matter if they cant control you, they dont need to, just slowly DPS you while you constantly run around trying to chase them getting 1-2 at wills off if your lucky or they mess up.
Even with the sprint change, 5-10% unstoppable is STILL too low...
And to all the whiners talking about PVE and standing in the RED. Part of the issue there too is rubberbanding is so bad with certain attacks and GWFs have longer animation times on their attacks and even sprinting is so buggy youll get smacked still. Ive played GWF since beta as well, but you dont see me lecturing people basically saying L2P. GWFs were good then, then they buffed them more, but even back then (when we didnt have threat rush) we had tankiness AND control. So eventhough damage sucked then, you could still be a real threat because you could flourish->takedown->IBS in PVP.
Now you cant even takedown IBS because the animation time on IBS is longer than the stun on takedown and they can shift out of it to avoid damage.
BTW, IF you are removing GWF control for PVP then you REALLY need to tighten down the window in which things can be dodged with shift. I cant tell you how many times I use encounters and almost a full second later they shift dodge and avoid ot completely...
If you remove CC for GWFs, remove unstopped tankiness, then you need to tighten down that window. If GWFs need to pre-emptively strike and cross their fingers for a hit, other classes need to learn to pre-emptively dodge and cross theirs, otherwise its worthless
no no no no no!
Destroyers dont need more damage, they need more survivability. People really dont understand this and it amazes me.
For PVE:
ALOT of really good GWFs are outgearing the current dungeons so this is PART of the reason why GWFs can seem so strong. Even on LIVE if you took an averaged 12k-13k GS GWF into a dungeon hes not gonna be "uber tanky" as the 16-17k GS GWFs are.
SINCE this is a balance for BOTH PVP and PVE you have to look at both, and because of the outgearing issue you CANT just look at dungeons like T2 and say "well that destroyer whose 16k can just facetank" Well yeah he completely outgears the dungeon... What do you epxect?!
Since you have to take into account PVP as well, THAT is where the numbers need to be fine tuned. For PVE its MUCH more of a "gray line" primarily because there is no healing depression. So GWFs get DOUBLE the temp HP AND if they take unstoppable recovery DOUBLE the healing GWFs in PVP get.
So dont look at a 15k+ GS GWF run a T2 or even CN and say "now it feels good". Go run a PVP match against other 15k-17k+ GS players like an HR or CW and judge the tankiness. Like I said, PVP is a MUCH finer line so it has to be balanced around PVP. Otherwise it may be "ok" for PVE but utterly worthless for PVP and you wouldnt even know.
For pre-mod 1 and Mod 1 Sentinel GWFs were realy tanky and dealt OK damage, Destroyers were worthless in PVP because they were not tanky enough.
Then they release Mod 2 and give GWFs Iron Vanguard and gave GWFs a way to MARK their own targets in PVP -> Making
powerful challenge" a MASSIVE DPS buff in PVP to Sent GWFs. They Also got FrontLine which enabled amazing combos involving Mark and "poweful challenge"
THEN they say "Sents are too powerful" so they nerf Sent Damage but give more damage to DEstroyers.
Well THEN people say "Destroyers are too tanky for the damage they deal"... Before they buffed Destroyer damage, why did noone play Destoryer? BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT TANKY ENOUGH!!!!
SO WHY IS THE SOLUTION TO NERF THEIR TANKINESS? WHEN THE PROBLEM AROSE FROM THEM HAVING ROAR WITH 50% REDUCED CD THATS A BUGGED SKILLS COMBINED WITH TOO MUCH DAMAGE?
SOLUTION: SCALE DAMAGE BACK A TAD, FIX ROAR and now you just balanced the class.
^ This. This. This. This. I have no Idea why they can't just understand this concept. Their solution to nerf the only defense the gwf has is baffling. I only pray that they actually listen to our feedback.
GWFs with more survivability and less damage are Sentinels. GWFs with more damage and less survivability are Destroyers. You can't have both.
Less survivability is an understatement in the new update. Destroyers are literally left with no defense and get killed within seconds in mobs. We're not asking for both, but it would still be nice to not die in a matter of small hits when playing destroyer, which is whats currently happening in the new Module update.
HR dodge does the same thing. you hit it twice so that you are tagged at the other location. And yes I have one of each it works. Just spends more stamina.
Per my post, I didn't say sprint or dodge. I said powers that provide gap closure - charges (bull chargea short range knockback) and lunging strike a long-distance gap closer. Both with damage at the end of them versus sprint which eats up stamina and does no damage.
Speaking of classes we play - do you play a GWF? Have you played with the changes on the PTS? Do you have an opinion based on experience or just don't like your face being eaten by the class?
IV was the GF Tank path, that you guys received and it was buffed into a DPS path for you. We were given the SM path but it was debuffed for us...
I think they want the IV path to be for survivability / control and the are returning it to a Tank path for Both classes, and are buffing SM for GF making it a semi DPS path for us! So You will do a bit less damage in IV but I think you will still be very powerful! I do not have a GWf so I say hop on preview see whats doing...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
But now they will want to. Conserve your stamina for sprint for when you need it like the other classes do with their dodges. Watch your charges of threatening rush and use those gap closers strategically. The game just got harder for you and you will just have to improve to succeed. Look at it as a challenge. People won't be able to tell you you "faceroll" wins anymore.
I read your entire post BTW, and I thought it was all good feedback. I wanted to highlight a few areas.
I would STRONGLY suggest, again, that the "fine tuning" of the GWF currently HAS to come from PVP. Your entire group drastically outgears CN and combined with that, as I mentioned before, PART of the major divide between PVE and PVP in testing GWFs is healing depression. While this affects all classes, I think the "fine line" has been crossed in PVP, while the PVE groups who out gear content wont feel the line as been crossed unless NEW PVE dungeons came out that were intended for players 15k+GS.
That said, I 100% Agree with Wicked Strike Banding that happens - this is causing a MAJOR issue in PVE DPS with Unstoppable Nerf.
I do also like you suggestion about Sprint+Unstoppable. Seeing as how they are intending to make Sprint somewhat defensive, I think this COULD work, my only fear - and I would want to test this, is with unstoppable + sprint it would make GWFs nearly un-controllable - which I dont know how I feel about that. Id almost be in favor of just granting Spring like 100% CC resistance meaning CC would be cut in half if used while sprinting.
Heck, Id even take Unstoppable at 15-30% and Unstoppable now only grants 200% CC resistance or something with Sprint keeping CC immunity. There is alot of ways to play that.
But I agree, Unstoppable needs to be brought back UP, I have been saying 15-30% but even 15-25% is fine too - its roughly the same thing.
Making Sprint THAT good though also makes me concerned with Sentinel GWFs. Id even say just buff up restoring strike benefits to Sent Capstone, remove the added DR to unstoppable (if brought back to 15-30%ish Sents will already be approaching DR hardcap anyways) and now they can use Sprint defensively as well.
Im lost at what your saying... And even stacking 3k regen in PVP wont do anything since your SO far into Dim returns, that + healing depression wouldnt help at all....
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
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my gwf named crystal (can check if you want) with 13k (rank 7, greater plague) can easily deal 8-10k takedown in pvp. i dont even want to know how much he wil deal with better gears. so for the sake of balance let s be realistic and let s try to fix all the REAL problems once for all or the problem will show up again in few months.
i read 2/4k ...well...that isnt even remotely true at all.
helm , feets purified + titan armour arms + titan weapon + purified knot , pvp dext/sinister as rings , purified belt and neck , 3 artefacts with regen + 250 boon = 2,7k regen + buff from madness 3k regen . alot of hp . alot of classes will be nerfed so they won't do the same damage... so we still be tanky as hell ..
Guy you think 15% reg is much? 1) It's reduced to 7,5% due healing depression. 2) It's reduced to 3,75% of total health - or to be understandable: at 50% and less health it's capped -. So 3,75%/3s = 1,25%. That's of 50k health ~625hp/s. Or 1875hp every tick. And the damage ISN'T so hard reduced, that DPS is lower than 900! And i don't think, that you will achieve so much hp with so many blues.
it's 3,1k/3 sec
and i've continued with the idea sayn about that stat Health Regen: 0%
and what blues?