Buff cast time back to normal, reduce damage..!? WHY? Magic missile, RoE, and FtF aren't even control spells. It's bad enough that thaum and renegade were nerfed to oblivion!
Because the nerf to cast time decreased overall DPS. Since people didn't like the slow pace, they restored cast times but nerfed the damage, to maintain the intended reduction to DPS. It looks very harsh, but hopefully will be less noticeable given the fix to Armor Penetration and the linear scaling of Power.
Of course, that's only for endgame people who have access to all those additional stat boots from endgame boons and gear. To heck with new and mid-progression players who suddenly have their performance nerfed for the sake of endgame buffs they don't have access to.
This approach kind of reminds me of playing Jenga solo, and going for the bottom pieces first.
Another big damage nerf to PVP single target spells ??? .........unbelievable
Virus, Enemy Team.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
I think increasing Sudden Storm damage by 25% (after the 33% reduction) is making it too powerful.
I feel that the Sudden Storm damage should be left at the 33% reduction because on Live it is simply too powerful, whilst on Preview it felt more in line with damage from other classes, especially with the unlimited target cap.
Generally however, I feel that the paragon feats still increase CW damage too much overall. The damage of powers could be reduced slightly only, if in exchange the feat % damage increases were reduced significantly.
This in turn would make Control Wizards still viable whilst leveling up, where access to Paragon Feats is limited, but not result in as much snowballing once reaching level 50 and higher.
Just as an example, the final bosses of all 3 Dread Ring Lairs (i.e. the final room, ignoring the rest of the Lairs) I still defeat significantly faster with my Control Wizard than my somewhat more geared Great Weapon Fighter Destroyer Swordmaster. Then there's a massive time gap between the GWF and all other classes (HR, then TR, then DC, then GF)
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Another big damage nerf to PVP single target spells ??? .........unbelievable
Plus you factor in pvp gear, control immune blocking, control immune GWFs, control immune master infiltrators, and like hell you stand a chance against a competent HR.
Might as well be a warlock in pvp when you barely control in the first place.
Just as an example, the final bosses of all 3 Dread Ring Lairs (i.e. the final room, ignoring the rest of the Lairs) I still defeat significantly faster with my Control Wizard than my somewhat more geared Great Weapon Fighter Destroyer Swordmaster. Then there's a massive time gap between the GWF and all other classes (HR, then TR, then DC, then GF)
CW are super squishy so deal damage to make up for it , for example I can run from the start to the end of all three Dread ring lairs on my GWF pulling every enemy and kill them all in the final room with little to no difficulty and still do the boss in less time than it takes to do the lairs on my significantly higher geared CW having to do every group of enemies in turn so I have no idea what you are doing wrong on your GWF, why should the GWF have huge survivability AND massive DPS?
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
With Lifesteal any CW can do the same.
Case in point: Castle Never
So really CWs are extremely survivable as well as top in damage dealing
Hey all, we have been testing and tweaking further timing changes. To try and keep the gameplay as fluid as players are currently enjoying we are readjusting many of the single target spell timings and adjusting their damage to keep them in line. The overall potential output should not change much on test, but the spells should feel much more responsive and fluid.
Magic Missile: Casting times have been reverted to their live state. Damage has been reduced by roughly 32%.
Chill Strike: Casting time reduced to 1 second. Damage reduced by roughly 15%
Conduit of Ice: Casting time reduced to 1 second. Damage reduced by roughly 17%.
Entangling Force: Casting time reduced to 1 second.
Ray of Enfeeblement: Casting time reduced to .9 seconds. Damage reduced by roughly 32%
Master of Flame: Fanning the Flame: Casting time reduced to 1 second. Base damage reduced by roughly 33%.
Spellstorm: Sudden Storm: Damage increased by roughly 25%
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
My question is why is FtF being nerfed? Compared to SS the MoF was already significantly weaker and this was pretty much the only damage based spell we had. FtF should at least have parity with the SS's sudden storm
So really CWs are extremely survivable as well as top in damage dealing
ummm... you know that CW can survive CN only because adds are constantly controlled by at least 2 more CWs?
Diffrence here is GWF can survive 2-4 mobs attacking him and not give a fudge about it, CW on the other hand will not be able to say "abracadabra" if attacked by 4 mobs.
1 CW should be enough to be able to control all the adds in any dungeon without having to worry about dealing high damage at the same time but right now whenever there's 1 CW in a party it all changes into massive ****storm where mobs are running around after players that have aggro (it's really funny to see GF confused and trying to retake aggro of everything on himself).
I personally don't understand reason behind "nerfing" CWs heroic feats, if we're not supposed to deal so much damage why not change it to bonus control? I mean from all feats we have ~6 that are (more or less) focused strictly on control, most of them are focused on dealing damage. So why nerf damage boosting feats to minimum when they could be changed to bonus control and everyone would be happy (except, probably, PvPers since CC in PvP is almost non existent).
Well, most things I wrote on first page so no need to repeat myself over every change
Well, most things I wrote on first page so no need to repeat myself over every change
I disagree. They are not updating the change list on the first page with each revision. Rather, they post followup changes throughout the thread to imply that they are address previously presented feedback. You should repost your opinions to indicate that your grievances still apply after each change that doesn't address them, or risk the assumption of silent consent.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
My question is why is FtF being nerfed? Compared to SS the MoF was already significantly weaker and this was pretty much the only damage based spell we had. FtF should at least have parity with the SS's sudden storm
Im not sure why Fanning the Flame is being nerfed as well. I wouldnt even call Fanning the Flame a burst encounter. So why?
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Im not sure why Fanning the Flame is being nerfed as well. I wouldnt even call Fanning the Flame a burst encounter. So why?
More like normal FtF on main target and a scorching burst on surrounding mobs. It's really not that impressive unless you want a quick smolder off and don't want to slot scorch. If you want a quick smolder just proc it with steal time or actually use scorching burst.
I actually find conduit of ice stronger than fanning the flame and it slows.
You can't destroy a class simply because you plan to introduce a new one.
You want to cut our damage by half or more with all those changes? Find a way to give us double the control or new encounters, because the way you guys are handling this new class introduction is a slap in the face to those who spent almost a whole year gearing,practicing rotations and finding the right build to make this already challenging class in pvp at least VIABLE at all.
A buff to sudden storm?
A buff to Steal time? THOSE ARE ONLY PVE SPELLS!!
Isn't the only reason for all those nerfs the current CW damage in pve?
Everything you guys do is a contradiction, makes no sense at all the way you devs keep nerfing pvp only single target encounters and keep buffing aoe pve ones for no reason, i don't get it.
The correct way to tone down pve damage without destroying the class has already been posted several times in this thread...you guys wanted feedback from us, we gave you suggestions and a list of reworks to solve the problem.
Now are you gonna listen or are you gonna apply those changes no matter what your playerbase thinks?
Virus, Enemy Team.
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charkanramonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 51Arc User
edited July 2014
gentlemancrush, please update the first page of the thread with new changes. It's tiring back the pages to understand what has been updated.
Suggestion:
Arcane Presence: increases Arcane Mastery points gain
Chilling Presence: causes slowness of movement in those near the cw
Orb of Imposition: chance to ignore immunity to control
Evocation: speed up spells cast time
Stormfury: when you reach 30% of life all around enemies are pushed away by an electric discharge
Eye of the Storm: single target spells have a chance to stun
Hey all, we have been testing and tweaking further timing changes. To try and keep the gameplay as fluid as players are currently enjoying we are readjusting many of the single target spell timings and adjusting their damage to keep them in line. The overall potential output should not change much on test, but the spells should feel much more responsive and fluid.
Magic Missile: Casting times have been reverted to their live state. Damage has been reduced by roughly 32%.
Chill Strike: Casting time reduced to 1 second. Damage reduced by roughly 15%
Conduit of Ice: Casting time reduced to 1 second. Damage reduced by roughly 17%.
Entangling Force: Casting time reduced to 1 second.
Ray of Enfeeblement: Casting time reduced to .9 seconds. Damage reduced by roughly 32%
Master of Flame: Fanning the Flame: Casting time reduced to 1 second. Base damage reduced by roughly 33%.
Spellstorm: Sudden Storm: Damage increased by roughly 25%
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I have a question: Why should casting time be at all proportional to damage?
I don't follow. The intended goal of these changes is to reduce overall CW damage. For encounter spells the overall damage a CW does (roughly) is the sum of the damage of each spell divided by their respective cooldowns. Casting time is irrelevant. It doesn't change anything as far as overall damage goes. (If anyone disagrees, just think if all spells fired instantaneously--sure you could get four spells off in an instant but then all of them would be on their cooldowns and you'd have to wait, and wait, and wait until you could get off another one. The overall time until you could cast your 5th spell would be no different than if you had long casting times.) I can't figure out why casting times were increased in the first place. Then I further can't figure out why they were reduced but had more damage taken away as though those things balance each other out. They don't. They're totally independent aspects.
Adjusting casting times will ONLY affect how likely a spell is to get interrupted. It does NOT affect the DPS of the ability.
You are seeing a lot of PvP CW's complaining about the increased casting times because CW's can already get chain interrupted by other classes and slowing down their cast times made things significantly worse. Walking the casting times back is appreciated, but why alter the spell damage? Conduit of Ice with a 1 second casting time will do no more or less damage than Conduit of Ice with a 1.2 second casting time when used repeatedly. So why the damage nerf as though they are related?
I have a question: Why should casting time be at all proportional to damage?
I don't follow. The intended goal of these changes is to reduce overall CW damage. For encounter spells the overall damage a CW does (roughly) is the sum of the damage of each spell divided by their respective cooldowns. Casting time is irrelevant. It doesn't change anything as far as overall damage goes. (If anyone disagrees, just think if all spells fired instantaneously--sure you could get four spells off in an instant but then all of them would be on their cooldowns and you'd have to wait, and wait, and wait until you could get off another one. The overall time until you could cast your 5th spell would be no different than if you had long casting times.) I can't figure out why casting times were increased in the first place. Then I further can't figure out why they were reduced but had more damage taken away as though those things balance each other out. They don't. They're totally independent aspects.
Adjusting casting times will ONLY affect how likely a spell is to get interrupted. It does NOT affect the DPS of the ability.
You are seeing a lot of PvP CW's complaining about the increased casting times because CW's can already get chain interrupted by other classes and slowing down their cast times made things significantly worse. Walking the casting times back is appreciated, but why alter the spell damage? Conduit of Ice with a 1 second casting time will do no more or less damage than Conduit of Ice with a 1.2 second casting time when used repeatedly. So why the damage nerf as though they are related?
Because a lot of the synergy provided by feats are based on chaining spells that allow the next spell in a rotation to benefit from a buff triggered by the previously cast spell. Slowing casting speed reduces the number of spells that will benefit from a triggered buff, and also affects the maintainability of effects that are dependent on the sustained application of at-wills, ie. Smoulder, Arcane Mastery, and Chill.
What they're doing it easy to see. Why they're doing it, is what evades me.
Hey guys! We have read through the feedback and wanted to share some of the changes we are making in the next week or two. There isn't enough data from dungeons yet to make any big changes but we wanted to take some time to share these and also talk about increased casting times and why powers got these changes.
First up, the changes we are making.
Bug fixes:
Twisting Immolation: Now correctly Dazes targets when they land.
Elemental Empowerment: Creeping Frost and Warped Magics should now properly trigger and apply to foes.
Assailing Force: Assailing Force will now correctly trigger more than once. Additionally, the tooltip has been updated to be more transparent about activation chance and uptime.
Adjustment:
Control Wizard: Eye of the Storm: ICD reduced to 25 seconds (Down from 90 seconds)
Control Wizard: Ray of Enfeeblement: Allies now benefit from this effect again, but multiple Wizards cannot stack this effect for increased potency.
Control Wizard: Chill: While a foe is affected by Shattered or the Stun from Shatter Strike they cannot be afflicted with stacks of Chill.
Control Wizard: Shatter Strike: Will no longer improperly hold players for 5 seconds or be immune to CC break effects.
When will these changes be made on the preview server? I logged on to the preview server planning to test some of these newer changes out but eye of the storm still had a 90 second cooldown so I assume they haven't actually gone into effect yet.
I have a question: Why should casting time be at all proportional to damage?
I don't follow. The intended goal of these changes is to reduce overall CW damage. For encounter spells the overall damage a CW does (roughly) is the sum of the damage of each spell divided by their respective cooldowns. Casting time is irrelevant. It doesn't change anything as far as overall damage goes.
Because a lot of the synergy provided by feats are based on chaining spells that allow the next spell in a rotation to benefit from a buff triggered by the previously cast spell. Slowing casting speed reduces the number of spells that will benefit from a triggered buff, and also affects the maintainability of effects that are dependent on the sustained application of at-wills, ie. Smoulder, Arcane Mastery, and Chill.
What they're doing it easy to see. Why they're doing it, is what evades me.
If that's the reason it makes even less sense. Most of those buffs you're referring to where either removed or drastically reduced and made to be non-stacking on top of the casting time changes.
At the very least it would be less disruptive from established cast times that have mostly remained unchanged for a year. I'd much prefer tinkering with damage and recharge times instead of casting time changes. It doesn't make much real sense now that Abaddon brought it up.
I'd say he just made the best point in this thread. Good catch sir!
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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charkanramonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 51Arc User
edited July 2014
Bug: Opressor Twisting Immolation is not correctly dazes targets when they land.
CW are super squishy so deal damage to make up for it , for example I can run from the start to the end of all three Dread ring lairs on my GWF pulling every enemy and kill them all in the final room with little to no difficulty and still do the boss in less time than it takes to do the lairs on my significantly higher geared CW having to do every group of enemies in turn so I have no idea what you are doing wrong on your GWF, why should the GWF have huge survivability AND massive DPS?
Well, GWFs DPS depends on survivability (also diff spec GWF has more surv than dps and vice versa - roll a gwf, try it before talking). CWs survivablity depends on DPS. Squishy class with low DPS? It doesnt work. I hope to se more buffs. I have 3 CWs and cant imagine how I supposed to do karru where DOT eats me easily.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Bug: Opressor Twisting Immolation is not correctly dazes targets when they land.
These changes arent on the current preview patch yet.
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emeretMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Type: Feedback
Spec:Spellstorm Mage
Powers - Magic Missile: The first two strike decrease target's movement speed by 40%. The third strike stun target for 4 sec. (right slowing cast time) - Chill Strike: Stun target for 3 sec. If used on maestry, slow nearby target by 40% - Conduit of Ice: Slow affected target by 30% and add debuff (like low resistance or othr similar) - Entangling Force:Take 5 mobs together and stun them for 3 sec. If used on maestry, take 8 mobs toger and stun them for 3 sec. - Sudden Storm: Stun enemies for 3 sec. and increas advantage in combat for allies on affected target by 400 for 10 sec. - Ray of Enfeeblement: Allies BENEFIT from this debuff (this debuff is useless for cw only) - Steal Time: Not increas damage. Increas stun for 3 sec. If used in maesrty, it doesen't give movement speed but increas advantage in combat - Shard of the Endless avalanche: impact stun enemies for 3 sec. Explosion stun enemies for 5 sec and add a debuff - Arcane singularity: It can affect 15 targets, stun them for 3 sec and add debuff - Ice knife: It stun target for 5 sec and add debuff if targer is immune to stun
You have to add critical effect on control abilities, not only on damage. So it can encrease stun's lifetime and debuff's impact. You have to make a pure cc, not a cc/dps hybrid. So you have to add controls, debuff and so on, affecting by critical effect too.
You can make ice effect on stun and arcan effect to slow movement and debuff, or something like this. So you can redesign all Heroic feats on this light and meke a role for cw. A cc is an important member of a party and he can make a good support. Leave dps to warlck, slow damage of cw so he takes low ggro and increas control and debuff.
I have a question: Why should casting time be at all proportional to damage?
I don't follow. The intended goal of these changes is to reduce overall CW damage. For encounter spells the overall damage a CW does (roughly) is the sum of the damage of each spell divided by their respective cooldowns. Casting time is irrelevant. It doesn't change anything as far as overall damage goes. (If anyone disagrees, just think if all spells fired instantaneously--sure you could get four spells off in an instant but then all of them would be on their cooldowns and you'd have to wait, and wait, and wait until you could get off another one. The overall time until you could cast your 5th spell would be no different than if you had long casting times.) I can't figure out why casting times were increased in the first place. Then I further can't figure out why they were reduced but had more damage taken away as though those things balance each other out. They don't. They're totally independent aspects.
Casting time directly affects DPS as explained by gentlemancrush in an earlier post:
Second, I wanted to take a moment to talk about Casting Time, Cooldowns, and why powers had a lot of adjustments in this area. We sat down and looked at the damage potential of all the Control Wizard powers and looked at the damage potential of the power versus the total time spent actively casting it (Damage per cast time or DPCT). This functions like an opportunity cost where you are getting X damage for Y seconds spent casting. Most of the spells that had adjustments to casting time were substantially better powers than any other options for the same slot (Magic Missile was a prime offender here, being massively better than every other at will option in almost every possible situation). We also looked at the potential DPS of each power (which is a combination of Cast Time + Recharge Time versus the damage potential of the power) and adjusted various cooldowns to get more of these to be competitive. This meant buffs in a handful of cases, but largely it meant making them slightly longer to make more options competitive. We had several options for adjusting these, but instead of just making all of your powers deal less or more damage we wanted to try and preserve more of the damage potential of individual hits (because numbers feel really good) and slow down the rate at which those hits can be applied. While most powers needed only minor changes in this area, several were FAR stronger than any other option if they were used in a good situation.
Since the time taken to do the damage is a combination of casting time AND cooldown, the DPS of an individual power is directly affected by casting time.
Example: Power does 1000 dmg with 0 cast time and 10s cooldown = 1000dmg every 10s for 100 DPS; same power with a cast time of 2s does 1000dmg every 12 seconds for a DPS of 83.33
I disagree. They are not updating the change list on the first page with each revision. Rather, they post followup changes throughout the thread to imply that they are address previously presented feedback. You should repost your opinions to indicate that your grievances still apply after each change that doesn't address them, or risk the assumption of silent consent.
Well I still stand behind most of my suggestions on the first page (with now minor changes):
Stormspell Mage
Eye of the Storm:change it to: "have x% chance to add x stack of y on every spell, when reached x stacks the target is stunned for x seconds", we can put it this way for example: "player have 10/20/30% chance to add 1 stack of static with every spell on target, when reached 5 stacks affected target is stunned for 3 seconds and cannot be stunned (affected by static) by this effect for another 5 seconds" with this we are changing SS CW from damage dealer into more of a controller
Sudden Storm: change skill to "Storm Cage" (You trap your enemies in a cage made of lightning and filled with roaring thunder) damage and CC parameters need testing but I would suggest damage as 50% of current (post nerf) Sudden Storm and 1.5/2.5/3.5 or 2/4/6 seconds of root duration (per rank)
Also: Chilling Control (Paragon: Spellstorm): *REWORK* Sudden Storm now applies 1/2/3/4/5 stacks of Chill to targets hit by the primary strike. Storm Cage has now 20/25/30/35/40% chance to apply 5 stacks of chill to affected targets
Heroic Feats
Arcane Enhancement: This feat now grants 1/2/3% (Down from 2/4/6%) add 3/6/9% control bonus to this or change it to 5/10/15% control bonus
Blighting Power: This feat now grants 2/4/6% (Down from 3/6/9%)/add 1/2/3% chance to add additional chill stack
Wizard's Wrath: This feat now grants 1/2/3% (down from 2/4/6%)same as Arcane Enhancement add 3/6/9% control bonus or change it to 5/10/15% control bonus
I belive theese changes would secure (and improve) SS CW position as controller and with incoming warlock it's something players need because I honestly don't see purpose in two damage dealing casters.... but that's a thin ice over here, many people created CW to be AoE damage dealer and nothing more because there was no other caster class with AoE powers.
Also this would make perfect to divide SS and MoF roles as controllers:
MoF: CC by AoE dps + position*
SS: CC by AoE position* + dps
But we are talking about PvP single target powers at here. DPS balance issue is about PvE AOE powers.
Wait, you mean all these changes only take effect in PvP? All the class's abilities will remain as they are on live, for PvE? Well why didn't someone say so earlier? That's sure a relief to know that the class isn't being backhanded against 90% of the content in the game, simply for the 1 PvP game type that most players have to be paid AD to play.
Wait, you mean all these changes only take effect in PvP? All the class's abilities will remain as they are on live, for PvE? Well why didn't someone say so earlier? That's sure a relief to know that the class isn't being backhanded against 90% of the content in the game, simply for the 1 PvP game type that most players have to be paid AD to play.
That is not what he said. The changes are for both pvp and pve.
Casting time directly affects DPS as explained by gentlemancrush in an earlier post:
Since the time taken to do the damage is a combination of casting time AND cooldown, the DPS of an individual power is directly affected by casting time.
Example: Power does 1000 dmg with 0 cast time and 10s cooldown = 1000dmg every 10s for 100 DPS; same power with a cast time of 2s does 1000dmg every 12 seconds for a DPS of 83.33
You are correct that the casting time plus the cooldown time is the "total" time that the damage must be divided by. However, that is not really what the developers were talking about. They specifically state that they are tweaking things based on "Damage per cast time" and "opportunity cost" where they want the damage of the spell to be proportional to how long it takes to cast. I still can't figure out how that makes any sense when it is the cooldown time (or the time between consecutive casts) that affects the overall DPS.
To your example, if they made a spell that triggers instantly and does 1000 damage and has a 12 second cooldown that would do identical dps to a spell that takes 2 seconds to use, does 1000 damage and has a 10 second cooldown. Sure everyone would prefer the instant version of the spell since they wouldn't ever get interrupted, however you still would do identical DPS with the latter spell so long as you could avoid interruption. Look at the adjustments they made. They decreased cast times by 0.2 or 0.3 seconds. This decreases the overall time between consecutive casts by 1-2%. But they decreased damage by 20-30% to compensate. That's not at all a fair trade-off from a DPS perspective.
Damage per cast time should be a nearly irrelevant consideration when it comes to encounter spells. It makes sense for at-wills since those have no cooldown and how quickly they can be cast is the time between casts. But that is not the case for encounter spells. But they're tweaking the numbers as though it does matter. That's problematic.
my first advice to you guys would be: make sure that whoever lays hand on a certain class has expirience in playing that class.
ive got a cw, gwf and a hr, all t2/fallen dragon equipped, wich leads to a pretty broad angle of view. so to say.
from my perspective, looking at what you intend to do to the cw's is just absurd!
and thats even put politely, considering stuff like you turning our best control power(steal time) into our hardest hitter! -.-
your clearly couldnt have spend ANY thought on this whatsoever...
but lets have a closer look:
Magic Missile: The first two strikes can be chained together about 40% slower. The third strike of Magic Missile now takes 1.4 seconds to fire (up from 1.2).
why? it was allready a tough choice weather to spam chill cloud/storm pillar inbetween to keep buffs up, or have slightly increased at-will dps.
even so while compared to my gwfs or hrs at-wills it isnt/wasnt any "real good" to start with(like split-shot before the nerf)...
Chill Strike: This power now takes 1.2 seconds to fire (up from 1 second).
Chill Strike: This power has had its recharge time increased to 15 seconds (up from 13 seconds).
cs was 2nd to sudden storm as long as i can think of... increase number of max targets to 8-12 and/or have aoe-targets slowed.
Conduit of Ice: This power now takes 1.5 seconds to fire (up from .98 seconds).
Conduit of Ice: This power has had its recharge time reduced to 13 seconds (down from 18 seconds).
Conduit of Ice: This power has had its damage reduced by roughly 33%.
without the debuff its worthless now anyways... noone ever picked it for damage.
return to normal, as well as the corresponding feat, killing the soledom purpose of going thaum is just fail.
anyone whos played a wiz before knows that, see top of the post.
Sudden Storm: This power has had its recharge time increased to 14 seconds (up from 10 seconds).
Sudden Storm: This power has had its base damage reduced by roughly 33%
fine with me if you add a small stunn effect. deals less damage than steal now(lawl), so some cc is highly neded with the reduced damage, taken its small aoe into account.
Ray of Enfeeblement: This power now takes 1.5 seconds to fire (up from .9 seconds).
Ray of Enfeeblement: This power has had its recharge time increased to 18 seconds (up from 14).
Ray of Enfeeblement: Allies no longer benefit from this debuff.
and what exactly would this spell be useful for anymore? a rather small singletarget dot?
its main purpose is the group benefit, wich should last longer bc of the longer recharge time, instead of been taken away.
Steal Time: This power has had its damage increased by roughly 65%.
Steal Time: This power has had its recharge time reduced to 18 seconds (down from 22 seconds).
its damage was pretty "ok" before, and hits for more than twice the ammount of shard.
having its cooldown reduced is nice, the damage buff is way overdone tho...
Shard of the Endless Avalanche: This power has had its base impact damage reduced by roughly 33%.
Shard of the Endless Avalanche: This power has had its explosion damage reduced by roughly 60%.
seriously?
hits for around 3k(non crit) now with endgame gear, wich makes the feat worthless too(if you aimed for the shard part of the bonus).
you need to manually aim, wich can proove quite difficult on some terrain(and due to it sometimes not responding to push in general), have an awfully long casttime and cd, while getting a rather poor cc effect(if the darn thing even explodes in the first place) with negligible damage in return now.
hardly worth slotting anymore while it is(or should be) our "highest level z0mgz0rz t3hpwn4g3" spell...
getting "roll over" and explode damage on par was ok, other than that you just broke the spell totally.
severely enhance damage on this thing, and/or the prone effects to make it a viable cc spell.
Arcane Singularity: Activation time increased to 2 seconds (up from 1 second).
Arcane Singularity: Now can affect up to 8 targets (down from 15).
singu needed a hit with the nerfbat, but thats too much.
maybe 1.5sec, 10-12 targets. with the addfest going on in some dungeons 8 just wont be suffice imo.
considering that in most cases nowadays ppl tend to choose opressive over singu anyways.
if your party isnt all trigger happy, the gwf or gf shouldnt have that much of a hard time dragging the trash togeather in the first place,
rendering singu useless in "out of control" situations will eliminate its purpose totally.
Eye of the Storm: This power now has an internal cooldown of 90 seconds. Base Duration increased to 4 seconds (up from 2). Duration increase per rank increased to 1 (up from .5).
replace no capes! with "no internal or global cooldowns".
its a BAD thing to do. its was bad in any other mmo ive played, and itll be bad when our grandkids'll be playing.
heck, since its virtually impossible for a cw to stack any crit if you dont wanna throw arp overboard that skill sorta DESERVED to be the way it is...
or if you want to keep it that way, you have to explain to my thiefling cw, why you make her suffer a crying spasm everytime she gets a glare at the grand warden set. :tard:
allso just halfing every single(!!!) damage feat in addition to the awful changes, is just a punch in the face.
you can consider every non-paragon feat to be basically cosmetic now, while leaving all the room to enhance control abilities unused.
with the exception of focused wizardry. i got news for you: cws are NOT strikers!
you cant just throw a whole nerfnuke arsenal on a class at once and expect it to survive(be any playable).
while a slight damage nerf, with slightly increased cc times would be benefitial, you just gimp the damage to kingdome come and deliver nothing in return.
i may close with pointing at the initiall advice again, dont let anyone suggest changes to a class hes not familiar with.
steal time hardest hitter... wow, this is SO wrong...
Comments
Because the nerf to cast time decreased overall DPS. Since people didn't like the slow pace, they restored cast times but nerfed the damage, to maintain the intended reduction to DPS. It looks very harsh, but hopefully will be less noticeable given the fix to Armor Penetration and the linear scaling of Power.
Of course, that's only for endgame people who have access to all those additional stat boots from endgame boons and gear. To heck with new and mid-progression players who suddenly have their performance nerfed for the sake of endgame buffs they don't have access to.
This approach kind of reminds me of playing Jenga solo, and going for the bottom pieces first.
I feel that the Sudden Storm damage should be left at the 33% reduction because on Live it is simply too powerful, whilst on Preview it felt more in line with damage from other classes, especially with the unlimited target cap.
Generally however, I feel that the paragon feats still increase CW damage too much overall. The damage of powers could be reduced slightly only, if in exchange the feat % damage increases were reduced significantly.
This in turn would make Control Wizards still viable whilst leveling up, where access to Paragon Feats is limited, but not result in as much snowballing once reaching level 50 and higher.
Just as an example, the final bosses of all 3 Dread Ring Lairs (i.e. the final room, ignoring the rest of the Lairs) I still defeat significantly faster with my Control Wizard than my somewhat more geared Great Weapon Fighter Destroyer Swordmaster. Then there's a massive time gap between the GWF and all other classes (HR, then TR, then DC, then GF)
Plus you factor in pvp gear, control immune blocking, control immune GWFs, control immune master infiltrators, and like hell you stand a chance against a competent HR.
Might as well be a warlock in pvp when you barely control in the first place.
I would still prefer Storm Cage
CW are super squishy so deal damage to make up for it , for example I can run from the start to the end of all three Dread ring lairs on my GWF pulling every enemy and kill them all in the final room with little to no difficulty and still do the boss in less time than it takes to do the lairs on my significantly higher geared CW having to do every group of enemies in turn so I have no idea what you are doing wrong on your GWF, why should the GWF have huge survivability AND massive DPS?
Case in point: Castle Never
So really CWs are extremely survivable as well as top in damage dealing
My question is why is FtF being nerfed? Compared to SS the MoF was already significantly weaker and this was pretty much the only damage based spell we had. FtF should at least have parity with the SS's sudden storm
ummm... you know that CW can survive CN only because adds are constantly controlled by at least 2 more CWs?
Diffrence here is GWF can survive 2-4 mobs attacking him and not give a fudge about it, CW on the other hand will not be able to say "abracadabra" if attacked by 4 mobs.
1 CW should be enough to be able to control all the adds in any dungeon without having to worry about dealing high damage at the same time but right now whenever there's 1 CW in a party it all changes into massive ****storm where mobs are running around after players that have aggro (it's really funny to see GF confused and trying to retake aggro of everything on himself).
I personally don't understand reason behind "nerfing" CWs heroic feats, if we're not supposed to deal so much damage why not change it to bonus control? I mean from all feats we have ~6 that are (more or less) focused strictly on control, most of them are focused on dealing damage. So why nerf damage boosting feats to minimum when they could be changed to bonus control and everyone would be happy (except, probably, PvPers since CC in PvP is almost non existent).
Well, most things I wrote on first page so no need to repeat myself over every change
I disagree. They are not updating the change list on the first page with each revision. Rather, they post followup changes throughout the thread to imply that they are address previously presented feedback. You should repost your opinions to indicate that your grievances still apply after each change that doesn't address them, or risk the assumption of silent consent.
Im not sure why Fanning the Flame is being nerfed as well. I wouldnt even call Fanning the Flame a burst encounter. So why?
More like normal FtF on main target and a scorching burst on surrounding mobs. It's really not that impressive unless you want a quick smolder off and don't want to slot scorch. If you want a quick smolder just proc it with steal time or actually use scorching burst.
I actually find conduit of ice stronger than fanning the flame and it slows.
You can't destroy a class simply because you plan to introduce a new one.
You want to cut our damage by half or more with all those changes? Find a way to give us double the control or new encounters, because the way you guys are handling this new class introduction is a slap in the face to those who spent almost a whole year gearing,practicing rotations and finding the right build to make this already challenging class in pvp at least VIABLE at all.
A buff to sudden storm?
A buff to Steal time?
THOSE ARE ONLY PVE SPELLS!!
Isn't the only reason for all those nerfs the current CW damage in pve?
Everything you guys do is a contradiction, makes no sense at all the way you devs keep nerfing pvp only single target encounters and keep buffing aoe pve ones for no reason, i don't get it.
The correct way to tone down pve damage without destroying the class has already been posted several times in this thread...you guys wanted feedback from us, we gave you suggestions and a list of reworks to solve the problem.
Now are you gonna listen or are you gonna apply those changes no matter what your playerbase thinks?
Suggestion:
Arcane Presence: increases Arcane Mastery points gain
Chilling Presence: causes slowness of movement in those near the cw
Orb of Imposition: chance to ignore immunity to control
Evocation: speed up spells cast time
Stormfury: when you reach 30% of life all around enemies are pushed away by an electric discharge
Eye of the Storm: single target spells have a chance to stun
I have a question: Why should casting time be at all proportional to damage?
I don't follow. The intended goal of these changes is to reduce overall CW damage. For encounter spells the overall damage a CW does (roughly) is the sum of the damage of each spell divided by their respective cooldowns. Casting time is irrelevant. It doesn't change anything as far as overall damage goes. (If anyone disagrees, just think if all spells fired instantaneously--sure you could get four spells off in an instant but then all of them would be on their cooldowns and you'd have to wait, and wait, and wait until you could get off another one. The overall time until you could cast your 5th spell would be no different than if you had long casting times.) I can't figure out why casting times were increased in the first place. Then I further can't figure out why they were reduced but had more damage taken away as though those things balance each other out. They don't. They're totally independent aspects.
Adjusting casting times will ONLY affect how likely a spell is to get interrupted. It does NOT affect the DPS of the ability.
You are seeing a lot of PvP CW's complaining about the increased casting times because CW's can already get chain interrupted by other classes and slowing down their cast times made things significantly worse. Walking the casting times back is appreciated, but why alter the spell damage? Conduit of Ice with a 1 second casting time will do no more or less damage than Conduit of Ice with a 1.2 second casting time when used repeatedly. So why the damage nerf as though they are related?
Because a lot of the synergy provided by feats are based on chaining spells that allow the next spell in a rotation to benefit from a buff triggered by the previously cast spell. Slowing casting speed reduces the number of spells that will benefit from a triggered buff, and also affects the maintainability of effects that are dependent on the sustained application of at-wills, ie. Smoulder, Arcane Mastery, and Chill.
What they're doing it easy to see. Why they're doing it, is what evades me.
When will these changes be made on the preview server? I logged on to the preview server planning to test some of these newer changes out but eye of the storm still had a 90 second cooldown so I assume they haven't actually gone into effect yet.
A pretty fantastic point. +1
If that's the reason it makes even less sense. Most of those buffs you're referring to where either removed or drastically reduced and made to be non-stacking on top of the casting time changes.
At the very least it would be less disruptive from established cast times that have mostly remained unchanged for a year. I'd much prefer tinkering with damage and recharge times instead of casting time changes. It doesn't make much real sense now that Abaddon brought it up.
I'd say he just made the best point in this thread. Good catch sir!
Twisting Immolation is not correctly dazes targets when they land.
Well, GWFs DPS depends on survivability (also diff spec GWF has more surv than dps and vice versa - roll a gwf, try it before talking). CWs survivablity depends on DPS. Squishy class with low DPS? It doesnt work. I hope to se more buffs. I have 3 CWs and cant imagine how I supposed to do karru where DOT eats me easily.
These changes arent on the current preview patch yet.
Spec: Spellstorm Mage
Powers
- Magic Missile: The first two strike decrease target's movement speed by 40%. The third strike stun target for 4 sec. (right slowing cast time)
- Chill Strike: Stun target for 3 sec. If used on maestry, slow nearby target by 40%
- Conduit of Ice: Slow affected target by 30% and add debuff (like low resistance or othr similar)
- Entangling Force: Take 5 mobs together and stun them for 3 sec. If used on maestry, take 8 mobs toger and stun them for 3 sec.
- Sudden Storm: Stun enemies for 3 sec. and increas advantage in combat for allies on affected target by 400 for 10 sec.
- Ray of Enfeeblement: Allies BENEFIT from this debuff (this debuff is useless for cw only)
- Steal Time: Not increas damage. Increas stun for 3 sec. If used in maesrty, it doesen't give movement speed but increas advantage in combat
- Shard of the Endless avalanche: impact stun enemies for 3 sec. Explosion stun enemies for 5 sec and add a debuff
- Arcane singularity: It can affect 15 targets, stun them for 3 sec and add debuff
- Ice knife: It stun target for 5 sec and add debuff if targer is immune to stun
You have to add critical effect on control abilities, not only on damage. So it can encrease stun's lifetime and debuff's impact. You have to make a pure cc, not a cc/dps hybrid. So you have to add controls, debuff and so on, affecting by critical effect too.
You can make ice effect on stun and arcan effect to slow movement and debuff, or something like this. So you can redesign all Heroic feats on this light and meke a role for cw. A cc is an important member of a party and he can make a good support. Leave dps to warlck, slow damage of cw so he takes low ggro and increas control and debuff.
I think those qualify more as suggestions, than feedback. I don't believe the Devs are taking suggestions at this time, if ever.
Since the time taken to do the damage is a combination of casting time AND cooldown, the DPS of an individual power is directly affected by casting time.
Example: Power does 1000 dmg with 0 cast time and 10s cooldown = 1000dmg every 10s for 100 DPS; same power with a cast time of 2s does 1000dmg every 12 seconds for a DPS of 83.33
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Well I still stand behind most of my suggestions on the first page (with now minor changes):
Stormspell Mage
Eye of the Storm:change it to: "have x% chance to add x stack of y on every spell, when reached x stacks the target is stunned for x seconds", we can put it this way for example: "player have 10/20/30% chance to add 1 stack of static with every spell on target, when reached 5 stacks affected target is stunned for 3 seconds and cannot be stunned (affected by static) by this effect for another 5 seconds" with this we are changing SS CW from damage dealer into more of a controller
Sudden Storm: change skill to "Storm Cage" (You trap your enemies in a cage made of lightning and filled with roaring thunder) damage and CC parameters need testing but I would suggest damage as 50% of current (post nerf) Sudden Storm and 1.5/2.5/3.5 or 2/4/6 seconds of root duration (per rank)
Also: Chilling Control (Paragon: Spellstorm): *REWORK* Sudden Storm now applies 1/2/3/4/5 stacks of Chill to targets hit by the primary strike. Storm Cage has now 20/25/30/35/40% chance to apply 5 stacks of chill to affected targets
Heroic Feats
Arcane Enhancement: This feat now grants 1/2/3% (Down from 2/4/6%) add 3/6/9% control bonus to this or change it to 5/10/15% control bonus
Blighting Power: This feat now grants 2/4/6% (Down from 3/6/9%)/add 1/2/3% chance to add additional chill stack
Wizard's Wrath: This feat now grants 1/2/3% (down from 2/4/6%)same as Arcane Enhancement add 3/6/9% control bonus or change it to 5/10/15% control bonus
I belive theese changes would secure (and improve) SS CW position as controller and with incoming warlock it's something players need because I honestly don't see purpose in two damage dealing casters.... but that's a thin ice over here, many people created CW to be AoE damage dealer and nothing more because there was no other caster class with AoE powers.
Also this would make perfect to divide SS and MoF roles as controllers:
MoF: CC by AoE dps + position*
SS: CC by AoE position* + dps
*as in holding enemies at bay
Wait, you mean all these changes only take effect in PvP? All the class's abilities will remain as they are on live, for PvE? Well why didn't someone say so earlier? That's sure a relief to know that the class isn't being backhanded against 90% of the content in the game, simply for the 1 PvP game type that most players have to be paid AD to play.
That is not what he said. The changes are for both pvp and pve.
You are correct that the casting time plus the cooldown time is the "total" time that the damage must be divided by. However, that is not really what the developers were talking about. They specifically state that they are tweaking things based on "Damage per cast time" and "opportunity cost" where they want the damage of the spell to be proportional to how long it takes to cast. I still can't figure out how that makes any sense when it is the cooldown time (or the time between consecutive casts) that affects the overall DPS.
To your example, if they made a spell that triggers instantly and does 1000 damage and has a 12 second cooldown that would do identical dps to a spell that takes 2 seconds to use, does 1000 damage and has a 10 second cooldown. Sure everyone would prefer the instant version of the spell since they wouldn't ever get interrupted, however you still would do identical DPS with the latter spell so long as you could avoid interruption. Look at the adjustments they made. They decreased cast times by 0.2 or 0.3 seconds. This decreases the overall time between consecutive casts by 1-2%. But they decreased damage by 20-30% to compensate. That's not at all a fair trade-off from a DPS perspective.
Damage per cast time should be a nearly irrelevant consideration when it comes to encounter spells. It makes sense for at-wills since those have no cooldown and how quickly they can be cast is the time between casts. But that is not the case for encounter spells. But they're tweaking the numbers as though it does matter. That's problematic.
ive got a cw, gwf and a hr, all t2/fallen dragon equipped, wich leads to a pretty broad angle of view. so to say.
from my perspective, looking at what you intend to do to the cw's is just absurd!
and thats even put politely, considering stuff like you turning our best control power(steal time) into our hardest hitter! -.-
your clearly couldnt have spend ANY thought on this whatsoever...
but lets have a closer look:
why? it was allready a tough choice weather to spam chill cloud/storm pillar inbetween to keep buffs up, or have slightly increased at-will dps.
even so while compared to my gwfs or hrs at-wills it isnt/wasnt any "real good" to start with(like split-shot before the nerf)...
cs was 2nd to sudden storm as long as i can think of... increase number of max targets to 8-12 and/or have aoe-targets slowed.
without the debuff its worthless now anyways... noone ever picked it for damage.
return to normal, as well as the corresponding feat, killing the soledom purpose of going thaum is just fail.
anyone whos played a wiz before knows that, see top of the post.
fine with me if you add a small stunn effect. deals less damage than steal now(lawl), so some cc is highly neded with the reduced damage, taken its small aoe into account.
and what exactly would this spell be useful for anymore? a rather small singletarget dot?
its main purpose is the group benefit, wich should last longer bc of the longer recharge time, instead of been taken away.
its damage was pretty "ok" before, and hits for more than twice the ammount of shard.
having its cooldown reduced is nice, the damage buff is way overdone tho...
seriously?
hits for around 3k(non crit) now with endgame gear, wich makes the feat worthless too(if you aimed for the shard part of the bonus).
you need to manually aim, wich can proove quite difficult on some terrain(and due to it sometimes not responding to push in general), have an awfully long casttime and cd, while getting a rather poor cc effect(if the darn thing even explodes in the first place) with negligible damage in return now.
hardly worth slotting anymore while it is(or should be) our "highest level z0mgz0rz t3hpwn4g3" spell...
getting "roll over" and explode damage on par was ok, other than that you just broke the spell totally.
severely enhance damage on this thing, and/or the prone effects to make it a viable cc spell.
singu needed a hit with the nerfbat, but thats too much.
maybe 1.5sec, 10-12 targets. with the addfest going on in some dungeons 8 just wont be suffice imo.
considering that in most cases nowadays ppl tend to choose opressive over singu anyways.
if your party isnt all trigger happy, the gwf or gf shouldnt have that much of a hard time dragging the trash togeather in the first place,
rendering singu useless in "out of control" situations will eliminate its purpose totally.
replace no capes! with "no internal or global cooldowns".
its a BAD thing to do. its was bad in any other mmo ive played, and itll be bad when our grandkids'll be playing.
heck, since its virtually impossible for a cw to stack any crit if you dont wanna throw arp overboard that skill sorta DESERVED to be the way it is...
or if you want to keep it that way, you have to explain to my thiefling cw, why you make her suffer a crying spasm everytime she gets a glare at the grand warden set. :tard:
allso just halfing every single(!!!) damage feat in addition to the awful changes, is just a punch in the face.
you can consider every non-paragon feat to be basically cosmetic now, while leaving all the room to enhance control abilities unused.
with the exception of focused wizardry. i got news for you: cws are NOT strikers!
you cant just throw a whole nerfnuke arsenal on a class at once and expect it to survive(be any playable).
while a slight damage nerf, with slightly increased cc times would be benefitial, you just gimp the damage to kingdome come and deliver nothing in return.
i may close with pointing at the initiall advice again, dont let anyone suggest changes to a class hes not familiar with.
steal time hardest hitter... wow, this is SO wrong...