Additionally we have identified a bug in the block math that is causing it to behave improperly on preview. Currently we have a resistance cap that is clamped to 80% damage resistance, and the way block adds increased damage resistance is supposed to work after the resistance that is affected by this cap, but it is currently being clamped at the same time.
Just so that I am sure I understand correctly...
The way you previously described the new block was that holding up you should cut 80% of the damage before armor and other stat reductions took effect.
The bug you identified actually is counting the Block DR (80% Damage Reduction) at the same time as other reductions (which is capped at 80%)?
So basically it is safe for GF's to look at the damage they take while blocking on Preview and reduce it by what their standard Damage Resistance is?
Example: I block and take 2000 damage. With my base 51.5% DR (not counting AS or other party buffs) the damage I would take afterwards would be 970?
There's our tankiness that we kept asking for Gents. It was eaten by a bug, haha.
It does give the Guardian Fighter Combat Advantage as well. More precisely it actually causes the target to have Combat Disadvantage, which means everyone gets the benefit of Combat Advantage on them.
Additionally we have identified a bug in the block math that is causing it to behave improperly on preview. Currently we have a resistance cap that is clamped to 80% damage resistance, and the way block adds increased damage resistance is supposed to work after the resistance that is affected by this cap, but it is currently being clamped at the same time. Effectively what this means is that holding block down on preview puts you at the resistance cap in most cases, but doesn't work as intended as far as high DR values still being worth having. While we would like to fix this immediately, it will be a week or two before we can get this fix to Preview. In the meantime I would still like if Guardians would try the new block duration and feel of the system overall in dungeon runs (if you are taking too much damage to survive them, this is probably why). If you are not taking too much damage, let us know so we can tweak the new resistance correctly before it heads out to you guys.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I had a feeling both of these were true. Especially the DR bug on block.
The way you previously described the new block was that holding up you should cut 80% of the damage before armor and other stat reductions took effect.
The bug you identified actually is counting the Block DR (80% Damage Reduction) at the same time as other reductions (which is capped at 80%)?
So basically it is safe for GF's to look at the damage they take while blocking on Preview and reduce it by what their standard Damage Resistance is?
Example: I block and take 2000 damage. With my base 51.5% DR (not counting AS or other party buffs) the damage I would take afterwards would be 970?
There's our tankiness that we kept asking for Gents. It was eaten by a bug, haha.
This was my understanding as well, it was a tell tale sign to me, anyways, when thinks like Shocking Execute completely ignored block 80% as well, I had guessed they probably coded this into the normal DR which was also capping at 80%.
POINT 1) NEW RECKLESS ATTACKER is a pretty nice DPS boost ASSUMING it works like the old Stalwart Bulwark set did (each time you were hit gained 5% of HP as Power, stacks 5 times lasted 8 sec per stack). I ran this BOTH in PVE and PVP many times and it was NOT hard to keep up honestly. This new capstone seems like almost identical to the old set bonus but with crit AND 2 seconds more for each stack.
POINT 2) Now that Mark gives combat advantage damage to allies, ALOT of people will be looking for GFs in dungeons. Now with mark giving the GF 20% more damage, the ability for perma mark to be on someone(tab) AND this DPS boost from Reckless, GFs wont be so much a drag to the group as they are now. GFs will enhance the damage output for a group and with the "hard taunt" they have added to some attacks, I think a GF has a viable place in groups. Now if you have 16k+ GS players speed run or farm running CN (a dungeon they significantly outgear) you might just find they run with a GWF "offtank" who can spit out more damage. But as far as GFs being desired in a group, I think they definitely have a place now.
POINT 3) GETTING Reckless attacker stacks isnt hard either, someone mentioned they cant be "front line" with such low run speed. Well to that point I would say You have Lunge Strike which can close the gap significantly. If your party is also smart, they will let you rush in first and enforced threat everything BEFORE the CW CCs since then the party has cmbat advantage + mark damage there. If you enforced threat, you will have instant agro on all mobs and VERY often will get hit about 3 times+, thats 3 stacks right there. Seeing as they last 10 seconds, get hit once every ten seconds and youll keep the stacks up.
POINT 4) Would I like to see Prot/Tact trees get love too? OFCOURSE! But considering we havnt even tested these changes yet lets see what happens there FIRST then we can address other issues.
Look - lets be realistic, the DEVs frankly got module 4 forced on them. MY opinion and assumption is they probably wanted to do more for module 3, but when the word came down they had to release mod 4 on HAMSTER date, they probably rushed mod 3 as fast as possible. Right now I guarantee they are racing against the clock to get all the new CONTENT done for the module and I am also guessing it will be the biggest one yet! While they have mentioned they want to re-tool some classes, they are also BUILDING a new class and BUILDING new content ( IHOPE MORE PVE DUNGEONS! REAL ONES!) So while we can demand all these changes (as we all know I do LOL!) Being realistic, they have to pick the TOP priority issues for the classes.
Frankly, the biggest issues with GF were a lack of damage and a lack of efficient block meter and lack of party utility. IT SEEMS like these steps are moving hte the right direction IN COMBINATION with changes to CW/GWF as well. CWs got their damage MASSIVELY toned down, GWFs got their tankiness MASSIVELY toned down so in a NORMAL GS appropriate group I can see GFs having a place. And in PVP (assuming they increased the stamina block SIGNIFICANTLY) I can see a place for GF in PVP again, especially with some DPS buffs.
For PVP, GWFs will not be able to counter permas anymore, I have yet to see when they fix the heal stacking for HRs how that will look but IMO it seems like one of the best classes to face a perma will be a GF. Block wont be eaten by flurry, GFs have the highest HP now thus the highest regen, and SoS wil rip a TRs face off. We also still get to keep our Prone on Bull Rush which will REALLY help versus TRs. So that MAY be the new meta - send the GF on the perma, who knows.
Thanks for this input. Really starting to see things coming together. Still want to see the block works properly, but starting to see that the damage boost via mark boost and the reckless attacker rework might be sufficient, now lets see how this looks on preview.
I had a feeling both of these were true. Especially the DR bug on block.
Crush, when will the new duration be up on PTR?
Thursday will the update day.
While the capstone of the conquerer get a buff, the capstone + entire path of the protector need more benefits! We got nothing, no we get a nerf! Our Stab last not so long as before - damage nerf, then we can't block all damage, because we are forced to go out of block more as before...
The way you previously described the new block was that holding up you should cut 80% of the damage before armor and other stat reductions took effect.
The bug you identified actually is counting the Block DR (80% Damage Reduction) at the same time as other reductions (which is capped at 80%)?
So basically it is safe for GF's to look at the damage they take while blocking on Preview and reduce it by what their standard Damage Resistance is?
Example: I block and take 2000 damage. With my base 51.5% DR (not counting AS or other party buffs) the damage I would take afterwards would be 970?
There's our tankiness that we kept asking for Gents. It was eaten by a bug, haha.
Ill explain how it should work so it is 100% clear.
Given your example of 2000 incoming damage and 50% DR you would take 1000 while not blocking. Then your block would get involved and multiply THAT post resist number by 20% (resulting in 200 incoming damage, or a grand total 90% resistance). You can also take your current damage resistance * 1.8 to find what your blocking resist SHOULD be. Alternately you could multiply the base damage by .2 (Block grants 80%) and then multiply the remaining value (400 in this case) by your damage resist.
This is what makes a multiplicative bonus so nice. As long as you aren't using an operation that isn't a part of the formula you will generally get the right answer.
So. TL;DR. Damage Resistance while blocking works like this. (FinalDamage) = (Damage) * (1 - DamageResist) * (1 - BlockResist)
In your example that would be 200 = (2000) * (1.5) * (1-.8)
Feats: Conqueror: Reckless Attacker: *Rework* When struck in combat you gain Reckless Attacker. Reckless Attacker increases your damage by 5% and Critical chance by 2%. Reckless Attacker lasts 10 seconds and stacks up to 5 times.
Does this proc off of DoTs? Also, the uptime of the stacks is a bit low (in pvp), one could argue.
Ill explain how it should work so it is 100% clear.
Given your example of 2000 incoming damage and 50% DR you would take 1000 while not blocking. Then your block would get involved and multiply THAT post resist number by 20% (resulting in 200 incoming damage, or a grand total 90% resistance). You can also take your current damage resistance * 1.8 to find what your blocking resist SHOULD be. Alternately you could multiply the base damage by .2 (Block grants 80%) and then multiply the remaining value (400 in this case) by your damage resist.
This is what makes a multiplicative bonus so nice. As long as you aren't using an operation that isn't a part of the formula you will generally get the right answer.
So. TL;DR. Damage Resistance while blocking works like this. (FinalDamage) = (Damage) * (1 - DamageResist) * (1 - BlockResist)
In your example that would be 200 = (2000) * (1.5) * (1-.8)
Hopefully that clears it up!
Have we forgot the deflection severity? Or do we never deflect while blocking(serious ask, because our own DR is factored in)? Can you give an answer?
Ill explain how it should work so it is 100% clear.
Given your example of 2000 incoming damage and 50% DR you would take 1000 while not blocking. Then your block would get involved and multiply THAT post resist number by 20% (resulting in 200 incoming damage, or a grand total 90% resistance). You can also take your current damage resistance * 1.8 to find what your blocking resist SHOULD be. Alternately you could multiply the base damage by .2 (Block grants 80%) and then multiply the remaining value (400 in this case) by your damage resist.
This is what makes a multiplicative bonus so nice. As long as you aren't using an operation that isn't a part of the formula you will generally get the right answer.
So. TL;DR. Damage Resistance while blocking works like this. (FinalDamage) = (Damage) * (1 - DamageResist) * (1 - BlockResist)
In your example that would be 200 = (2000) * (1.5) * (1-.8)
Hopefully that clears it up!
Nice!!!, I wanted to hear that we will block more than the 80% (DR Cap) with the guard (I wasn't sure about it), Thanks!.
You could then in theory deflect the damage which would then reduce it even further.
The full resist behavior if you deflected the sample above would be
100 = 2000 * (1 - .5) * (1 - .8) * (1 - .5)
The last section is assuming 50% deflect severity.
Okay. Next step: Can you look how it impact the low and midlevel GF? While we endgame GF have lot of HP, Lifesteal and/or Regen, high DR maybe Deflect chance, our little 'kids' lack all of them. Yes i know block is 80% damage consume, but Unfortunately they can't generate HP back with their own power(okay Fighter recovery do, but it's a daily...) and drinking pots like some alcoholic guys drink alcohol seems not the goal or? Consider, that they have with the current block 100% mitigate, while they then have only ~84% with the new one. Making some encounter harder, and drinking of pots maybe more and more painful. I hope you don't forget with the balance in the high end game niveau, that it impact the lower levels way more! Keep on track with it please!
Okay. Next step: Can you look how it impact the low and midlevel GF? While we endgame GF have lot of HP, Lifesteal and/or Regen, high DR maybe Deflect chance, our little 'kids' lack all of them. Yes i know block is 80% damage consume, but Unfortunately they can't generate HP back with their own power(okay Fighter recovery do, but it's a daily...) and drinking pots like some alcoholic guys drink alcohol seems not the goal or? Consider, that they have with the current block 100% mitigate, while they then have only ~84% with the new one. Making some encounter harder, and drinking of pots maybe more and more painful. I hope you don't forget with the balance in the high end game niveau, that it impact the lower levels way more! Keep on track with it please!
I can tell you lower levels will be much less important IMO. Not from an elitist attitude but because I remember playing my GF at low levels and he cleared content VERY easy.
I dont think taking just a tad more dmg through block will affect them that much. If I remember right, as I leveled up, I was able to get mid 30s DR...
You could then in theory deflect the damage which would then reduce it even further.
The full resist behavior if you deflected the sample above would be
100 = 2000 * (1 - .5) * (1 - .8) * (1 - .5)
The last section is assuming 50% deflect severity.
I don't wish to criticize you or something here . But mister crash considering we are making a nc discussion here i wish to ask you . Did you pay attention that most players of the community don't like the new block ? It's not the answer .A Block system based on time to deplete and not to Incoming dmg will cripple the class on pve and make it extinct on PVP .
I don't wish to criticize you or something here . But mister crash considering we are making a nc discussion here i wish to ask you . Did you pay attention that most players of the community don't like the new block ? It's not the answer .A Block system based on time to deplete and not to Incoming dmg will cripple the class on pve and make it extinct on PVP .
Yeah not a fan of the new block at all but i like the other changes
NEW RECKLESS BUG:
Reckless Attacker applies 5x but you only get the actual damage bonus from 1 "stack" not 5....
(double posted in my feedback thread below)
Yeah not a fan of the new block at all but i like the other changes
Yep . There are 46 pages on the general feedback thread and more than 30 here full of players that "DON'T" lke the new block mech . The other changes are decent.
Yep . There are 46 pages on the general feedback thread and more than 30 here full of players that "DON'T" lke the new block mech . The other changes are decent.
Well, I don't like the mechanic of the new shield, but hell, the other changes sounds good!, also we have to test in on the preview to see the synergy of all the changes (+ DPS for WM, changes on Reckless Attacker, new Shield, Mark system, -20% DR with the Tab, etc..), there are a lot of changes and maybe the new shield in the middle of the battle (with all these new things) won't feel bad at all!.
FEEDBACK: New block seems decent - I know its still bugged at 80% cap and when WAI will be bigger DR - this will be NEEDED as I seem to take quite a bit of damage in block, but definitely reduced damage.
New Capstone has good proc chance and up rate seems like a great change- was easy to keep at 5 stacks - even inbetween HEs.
Is the run speed during block WAI? This change is really good although I dont think WAI? I have as much runspeed IN block as I do out of block. The old system gave up TOO much run speed, so if you are going to "fix" this, consider not so much of a movement nerf.
So far in testing out block, if you boon/artifact for stamina gain, and rock the 4/4 profound set you can get about 7-8 seconds of uptime. Also recharge seems decent. I DONT like that the duration without 4/4 profound is so short.
If you slot for Shield Talent you gain about 1 more second there (8-9 seconds). If you use Iron Warrior + Shield talent your guard wont drop at all while IW is active (about 4-5 seconds) So this seems acceptable. Almost "perma"block as you can be if you spec/feat for it. However again, the base duration needs to be increased for players who dont slot the profound armor. That seems to me to be the only current thing I dislike - Profound seems to be a MUST.
NOTE: I did NOT take protector "shieldmaster" which might end up with you GAINING stamina under IW - NOT TESTED.
BUGS: - Block interrupts daily powers - like Crescendo. This should be fixed IMO, You currently LOSE all your AP and dont finish the attack.
- Block Run speed?
- Reckless Attacker DOES give the 5 stacks 2% crit but ONLY 1 stack at 5% damage buff. Clearly not WAI.
- A few times when holding block, the system thinks I ran out and my guard meter went "red" as if I didnt have any block, but I had about 75% of my meter left and it continued to hold. Only once I reset block did it come back to blue.
- Stunning Flourish - Im not sure I see a bonus here, does it add a full second to the stun now? 4 PVE / 3 PVP?
Ok i tested the new block again and i have to say its still very very bad im sorry but im being hit 1-5 k from nps through my shield, im sure a gwf could rip me even with it up....we need 100% blocked or we will no longer be good in pvp.
Also it never says "blocked" anymore...that was helpful for a few reasons.
I was all for the changes for you guys, the tank build GF's. But now I find with the latest news my build destroyed. Reckless attacker, I studied the skills and feats, yes deciphered what they were trying to say and spec'd this toon from the start as an offensive GF, ( I never use my shield) now with the changes to reckless attacker my build is destroyed.
I do not do PvP sorry guys once you have seen the real thing you really loose taste for killing. I could get real gory but I will not, its a personnel decision to not PvP so respect my decision to not PvP, as I respect yours to participate in it. I feel that trying to re spec this class for PvP is destroying the class for PvE, which is what this game's core was designed for, PvP was only added due to player demand.
My build never had problems surviving without a shield, (def is still above 4k) and damage I lost track of all the 28k-30K strikes on the bosses in dread ring, not as high on the epics but I still produced very healthy damage against them. I learned which skills and which feats worked best to produce very high damage outputs, now with the change to reckless attacker my build is useless. I will now loose 100% power down now to a measly 4.5k.
With close to 10k power I did not have to wait to be hit 4 or 5 times to gain what I was generating each and every hit, ok the crit is nice but crit is a variable, non fixed formula, Constant high damage is just that, constant.
I am not the only one to have discovered this build, there are a few others, also non PvPers, who went close to the same route I did for this build, and they also feel there build is now destroyed.
Totally bummed such a waste of all the time, money for re specs and effort it took to build the perfect offensive GF DD!
Ok i tested the new block again and i have to say its still very very bad im sorry but im being hit 1-5 k from nps through my shield, im sure a gwf could rip me even with it up....we need 100% blocked or we will no longer be good in pvp.
Also it never says "blocked" anymore...that was helpful for a few reasons.
YOu do realize Crush posted block is not WAI on the PTR. its capping all DR at 80% its not multiplying everything out.... He said it will be fixed in 1-2 weeks
Bug Reckless Attacker: Only one stack is applied on damage buff, Crit is working awesome
Apart from that bug most changes are in good direction, specially the rework on Conqueror last feat, but as many people already posted, you left the other paths more useless, most GF's on live choose Conqueror cause the other trees doesnt offer any significant to say, hey that looks interesting. The duration of the shield for me (Conq Spec.) is now more acceptable, last around 7 secs.
On the other part even with the buff that you give to our Tab skill is still useless on PvE, the mayor concern of GF's apart from their insane low damage is that we are almost forgotten on PvE, and thanks to mod 3 we were nerfed into the ground on PVP, the new 20% DR debuff just work on PVP, cause ArP is really easy to stack for GF's and reach the famous 24% for PvE content.
Even with the rework on Conqueror tree, the total buff around damage is around 5%(not counting crit bonus), GF's on live can stack power close to 10K with no mayor issues and is still far low of what the class really need. Someone already posted that you took the easy path to address damage, but the others paths also need damage not just conqueror, we asking Dev's to REALLY look at the base damage/power bonus/stats of all weapons and see why GF's are asking not just more weapon base damage, we are also asking for better stats.
Still not a single reply about armor sets bonus effects on GF's, thrash/bugged feats and a serious rework on our Tab, the new buffed version is USELESS for PvE and maybe soon or later the rage of CW/GWF/TR/HR gonna come asking for a nerf on that because ignoring 20% of their DR is HUGE.
That being said these are a couple of suggestions:
1. Sorry but i need to put this on caps, WHEN YOU NEED TO ADDRESS A PROBLEM YOU NEED TO GO DIRECTLY TO THE CORE, stop trying to recreate the wheel that is already invented and look where the problem really is, WEAPON DAMAGE, everybody knows that weapon damage is connected to almost everything and that's why we are asking for a buff on it. Doesnt make any sense that a SWORD and specially a one handed one cause less damage than an floating stone where CW start to grab thing to throw on you or a DC symbol that shot whatever from the sky.
2. Mark: Mark debuff should stay the same (8% DR), make marks last a fixed amount of time (3-5secs) and not disappear when we are hit, this will gonna help Sent GWF and GF's on keeping threat/aggro (we are tanks, we are supposed to get attacked a lot) and CA bonus for teammates.
3. Tab Rework, forget about keeping buffing the current GF's Tab is useless and the new situation that you bring to us by buffing ET cap with no way to handle all the damage is a dead sentence for GF's. This idea i think is more useful, no overpowered and will gonna bring some love to the other tree paths. I called Knight Challenge: For each marked target you increase your damage resistance by 0.5%, this effect can stack upto 20 times, last 15 secs. Basically when we are surrounded by adds we get upto 10% more DR, putting less stress on DC when AS is on CD, is not broken for PVP cause at max we can get 2.5% more DR.
4. Protector capstone feat Rework: You now reduce the damage from all resources 2% for each attack, this effect can stack upto 5 times. Also now Knight Challenge gives an additionally 0.5% damage resistance per stack, basically with this we make the TANK tree the most defensive one, something close to what Sent GWF capstone feat brings to unstoppable but addressed by other way.
5. Tactician capstone feat Rework: Add the effect that Knight Challenge gives 0.5% more deflect chance per stack.
6. Armor bonus sets, Timeless hero, increase the effect from 6 to 10 secs and give us a second offensive stat, more in line with AoW bonus. High General remove internal CD and increase critical severy bonus from 10 to 15% and make GF affected by this proc too.
7. Feats: Remove Potent Challenge, you already boosted upto the sky threat generation, give us something useful there, rework all temporary HP feats, first insane CD for a class designed to take damage and also their bonus is too small.
YOu do realize Crush posted block is not WAI on the PTR. its capping all DR at 80% its not multiplying everything out.... He said it will be fixed in 1-2 weeks
Even if its fixed gwf can still hit us around 2-5 k dmg... i just dont get why we cant have 100% again, our shield was never strong anyway. Just my opinion, i prefer the old block much better.
Even if its fixed gwf can still hit us around 2-5 k dmg... i just dont get why we cant have 100% again, our shield was never strong anyway. Just my opinion, i prefer the old block much better.
5k? Are you kidding?
if you have 50% DR, 20% tenacity do you know how much damage it takes to hit you for 5k? Currently on the PTR it would only take about 25k - which is doable by GWFs.
When its working as intended. that same 25k hit will be reduced to 2,000 on their best IBS... So theres alot still left there. Also thats without deflecting it....
Also if your losing to a Destroyer GWF who hits you for 2k dmg through block, your doing it wrong. Destroyers are a joke now... Sents are hard to kill but deal no damage.
TO further this, if a GWf is attacking you and your spamming shield bash you can keep your block up almost permanently... Then turn around and bunt him with bullrush, floruish with a stun and lunge as well... Or just slot iron warrior and you basically can perma block anybody...
if you have 50% DR, 20% tenacity do you know how much damage it takes to hit you for 5k? Currently on the PTR it would only take about 25k - which is doable by GWFs.
When its working as intended. that same 25k hit will be reduced to 2,000 on their best IBS... So theres alot still left there. Also thats without deflecting it....
Also if your losing to a Destroyer GWF who hits you for 2k dmg through block, your doing it wrong. Destroyers are a joke now... Sents are hard to kill but deal no damage.
and what about multiple opponents ? getting hit 2ks through shield is just to much when it can be done multiple times...
Also yes i have 50% dr and 21% tenacity but that still wont stop all the spamming dmg getting through my shield, it may be small but it all ads up man and i dont see why we should even be damaged while blocking.
and what about multiple opponents ? getting hit 2ks through shield is just to much when it can be done multiple times...
Also yes i have 50% dr and 21% tenacity but that still wont stop all the spamming dmg getting through my shield, it may be small but it all ads up man and i dont see why we should even be damaged while blocking.
Who can hit you for 2k multiple times?... An IBS is on a 16+ second CD and crits for 25k... that will net 2k...
What did you do on live when 2 ppl even just looked at you and your block was gone within 2 seconds?
Most GWF at wills hit for likr 500-600 dmg... well that 600 damage turns into 48 damage..... Id rather take 48 damage from a GWF at will 4x in 2 seconds then have my guard be half gone with those same hits...
Again, currently its not working how its supposed to, youll take ALOT less damage when its fixed.
As far as block duration, I think its only OK. Not quite what I was hoping it would be, but I think I can make it work. At the very least it seems you can spec for almsot a near 100% uptime on block if played correctly with IW... It would involve some prones and possibly CC for recharge + shield talent but I think itll be good.
and what about multiple opponents ? getting hit 2ks through shield is just to much when it can be done multiple times...
Also yes i have 50% dr and 21% tenacity but that still wont stop all the spamming dmg getting through my shield, it may be small but it all ads up man and i dont see why we should even be damaged while blocking.
71% DR in PvP + Blocking = 5.8% of the damage will hit you..., 100K of damage going to you will be translated to only 5.8K and you can deflect some attacks... even if someone stack a lot of ArP and have GPF, etc... the best that they will do is 20%, it's a 80% DR at the worst case!!, we have to test it on live when the guard is fixed, I think it will be good.
- It is going to get fixed, but I think it is bugged in regards to AP gain. My GF is getting about 1/3-1/4 of the dailies I get on life, same spec, same recovery. Taking a TON of damage blocking, but that should get fixed.
- Damage is not bad, but it's obvious the capstone is not working.
- Iron Vangard is essentially useless. Bull does WEAK damage, Frontline is critting for about 2k lol... That was max. Threat Rush isn't hitting hard at alllllllll.
- I feel faster, but swordmaster is clunky, does pretty good damage, Haven't tested Tact, or Protector yet. After damage boost and shield fix it could be alright though.
Other Classes
Hr's are 10x what they were on mod 3, TR are still unkillable (Enemy Team and CS TR's, as well as a few top Synergy TR's)
GWF's - reroll another class until fixes are made, I took out a destroyer without losing more than 1k hp, took out a sent in rank 10's losing about 5k HP.
Who can hit you for 2k multiple times?... An IBS is on a 16+ second CD and crits for 25k... that will net 2k...
What did you do on live when 2 ppl even just looked at you and your block was gone within 2 seconds?
Most GWF at wills hit for likr 500-600 dmg... well that 600 damage turns into 48 damage..... Id rather take 48 damage from a GWF at will 4x in 2 seconds then have my guard be half gone with those same hits...
Again, currently its not working how its supposed to, youll take ALOT less damage when its fixed.
As far as block duration, I think its only OK. Not quite what I was hoping it would be, but I think I can make it work. At the very least it seems you can spec for almsot a near 100% uptime on block if played correctly with IW... It would involve some prones and possibly CC for recharge + shield talent but I think itll be good.
When fighting gwf i dont just stand there with my shield up, i kite him and onyl block on heavy hits so i love the old shield system just a little buff would have been perfect. Also i mean when surrounded, in icewind or domination you could have 3 or more players hitting you and with all that dmg as small as it is, it will add up and i dont like the idea of taking any dmg through my shield.
In icewind in the past i had NO debuffs and with my 50% dr and 21% tenacity a CW hit me 35k in 1 hit of ice spike.....the old block can just lift up and block the whole dmg if you are prepared but the new block will make me still take decent amount of dmg.
As for 100% uptime, i dont want to spec for that and just go for that then you would be weaker in other areas, i dont mind the duration so much now but as you said in a past post, faster stamina regen would be good. I would also like it if iron warrior got a buff or to give more temp hp and faster cooldown.
Comments
Just so that I am sure I understand correctly...
The way you previously described the new block was that holding up you should cut 80% of the damage before armor and other stat reductions took effect.
The bug you identified actually is counting the Block DR (80% Damage Reduction) at the same time as other reductions (which is capped at 80%)?
So basically it is safe for GF's to look at the damage they take while blocking on Preview and reduce it by what their standard Damage Resistance is?
Example: I block and take 2000 damage. With my base 51.5% DR (not counting AS or other party buffs) the damage I would take afterwards would be 970?
There's our tankiness that we kept asking for Gents. It was eaten by a bug, haha.
I had a feeling both of these were true. Especially the DR bug on block.
Crush, when will the new duration be up on PTR?
This was my understanding as well, it was a tell tale sign to me, anyways, when thinks like Shocking Execute completely ignored block 80% as well, I had guessed they probably coded this into the normal DR which was also capping at 80%.
Thanks for this input. Really starting to see things coming together. Still want to see the block works properly, but starting to see that the damage boost via mark boost and the reckless attacker rework might be sufficient, now lets see how this looks on preview.
Crush, any idea when this will be ready to test?
Thursday will the update day.
While the capstone of the conquerer get a buff, the capstone + entire path of the protector need more benefits! We got nothing, no we get a nerf! Our Stab last not so long as before - damage nerf, then we can't block all damage, because we are forced to go out of block more as before...
Ill explain how it should work so it is 100% clear.
Given your example of 2000 incoming damage and 50% DR you would take 1000 while not blocking. Then your block would get involved and multiply THAT post resist number by 20% (resulting in 200 incoming damage, or a grand total 90% resistance). You can also take your current damage resistance * 1.8 to find what your blocking resist SHOULD be. Alternately you could multiply the base damage by .2 (Block grants 80%) and then multiply the remaining value (400 in this case) by your damage resist.
This is what makes a multiplicative bonus so nice. As long as you aren't using an operation that isn't a part of the formula you will generally get the right answer.
So. TL;DR. Damage Resistance while blocking works like this. (FinalDamage) = (Damage) * (1 - DamageResist) * (1 - BlockResist)
In your example that would be 200 = (2000) * (1.5) * (1-.8)
Hopefully that clears it up!
Does this proc off of DoTs? Also, the uptime of the stacks is a bit low (in pvp), one could argue.
Have we forgot the deflection severity? Or do we never deflect while blocking(serious ask, because our own DR is factored in)? Can you give an answer?
Nice!!!, I wanted to hear that we will block more than the 80% (DR Cap) with the guard (I wasn't sure about it), Thanks!.
You could then in theory deflect the damage which would then reduce it even further.
The full resist behavior if you deflected the sample above would be
100 = 2000 * (1 - .5) * (1 - .8) * (1 - .5)
The last section is assuming 50% deflect severity.
Okay. Next step: Can you look how it impact the low and midlevel GF? While we endgame GF have lot of HP, Lifesteal and/or Regen, high DR maybe Deflect chance, our little 'kids' lack all of them. Yes i know block is 80% damage consume, but Unfortunately they can't generate HP back with their own power(okay Fighter recovery do, but it's a daily...) and drinking pots like some alcoholic guys drink alcohol seems not the goal or? Consider, that they have with the current block 100% mitigate, while they then have only ~84% with the new one. Making some encounter harder, and drinking of pots maybe more and more painful. I hope you don't forget with the balance in the high end game niveau, that it impact the lower levels way more! Keep on track with it please!
I can tell you lower levels will be much less important IMO. Not from an elitist attitude but because I remember playing my GF at low levels and he cleared content VERY easy.
I dont think taking just a tad more dmg through block will affect them that much. If I remember right, as I leveled up, I was able to get mid 30s DR...
I don't wish to criticize you or something here . But mister crash considering we are making a nc discussion here i wish to ask you . Did you pay attention that most players of the community don't like the new block ? It's not the answer .A Block system based on time to deplete and not to Incoming dmg will cripple the class on pve and make it extinct on PVP .
Yeah not a fan of the new block at all but i like the other changes
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Reckless Attacker applies 5x but you only get the actual damage bonus from 1 "stack" not 5....
(double posted in my feedback thread below)
Yep . There are 46 pages on the general feedback thread and more than 30 here full of players that "DON'T" lke the new block mech . The other changes are decent.
Well, I don't like the mechanic of the new shield, but hell, the other changes sounds good!, also we have to test in on the preview to see the synergy of all the changes (+ DPS for WM, changes on Reckless Attacker, new Shield, Mark system, -20% DR with the Tab, etc..), there are a lot of changes and maybe the new shield in the middle of the battle (with all these new things) won't feel bad at all!.
FEEDBACK:
New block seems decent - I know its still bugged at 80% cap and when WAI will be bigger DR - this will be NEEDED as I seem to take quite a bit of damage in block, but definitely reduced damage.
New Capstone has good proc chance and up rate seems like a great change- was easy to keep at 5 stacks - even inbetween HEs.
Is the run speed during block WAI? This change is really good although I dont think WAI? I have as much runspeed IN block as I do out of block. The old system gave up TOO much run speed, so if you are going to "fix" this, consider not so much of a movement nerf.
So far in testing out block, if you boon/artifact for stamina gain, and rock the 4/4 profound set you can get about 7-8 seconds of uptime. Also recharge seems decent. I DONT like that the duration without 4/4 profound is so short.
If you slot for Shield Talent you gain about 1 more second there (8-9 seconds). If you use Iron Warrior + Shield talent your guard wont drop at all while IW is active (about 4-5 seconds) So this seems acceptable. Almost "perma"block as you can be if you spec/feat for it. However again, the base duration needs to be increased for players who dont slot the profound armor. That seems to me to be the only current thing I dislike - Profound seems to be a MUST.
NOTE: I did NOT take protector "shieldmaster" which might end up with you GAINING stamina under IW - NOT TESTED.
BUGS:
- Block interrupts daily powers - like Crescendo. This should be fixed IMO, You currently LOSE all your AP and dont finish the attack.
- Block Run speed?
- Reckless Attacker DOES give the 5 stacks 2% crit but ONLY 1 stack at 5% damage buff. Clearly not WAI.
- A few times when holding block, the system thinks I ran out and my guard meter went "red" as if I didnt have any block, but I had about 75% of my meter left and it continued to hold. Only once I reset block did it come back to blue.
- Stunning Flourish - Im not sure I see a bonus here, does it add a full second to the stun now? 4 PVE / 3 PVP?
Also it never says "blocked" anymore...that was helpful for a few reasons.
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I do not do PvP sorry guys once you have seen the real thing you really loose taste for killing. I could get real gory but I will not, its a personnel decision to not PvP so respect my decision to not PvP, as I respect yours to participate in it. I feel that trying to re spec this class for PvP is destroying the class for PvE, which is what this game's core was designed for, PvP was only added due to player demand.
My build never had problems surviving without a shield, (def is still above 4k) and damage I lost track of all the 28k-30K strikes on the bosses in dread ring, not as high on the epics but I still produced very healthy damage against them. I learned which skills and which feats worked best to produce very high damage outputs, now with the change to reckless attacker my build is useless. I will now loose 100% power down now to a measly 4.5k.
With close to 10k power I did not have to wait to be hit 4 or 5 times to gain what I was generating each and every hit, ok the crit is nice but crit is a variable, non fixed formula, Constant high damage is just that, constant.
I am not the only one to have discovered this build, there are a few others, also non PvPers, who went close to the same route I did for this build, and they also feel there build is now destroyed.
Totally bummed such a waste of all the time, money for re specs and effort it took to build the perfect offensive GF DD!
YOu do realize Crush posted block is not WAI on the PTR. its capping all DR at 80% its not multiplying everything out.... He said it will be fixed in 1-2 weeks
Bug Reckless Attacker: Only one stack is applied on damage buff, Crit is working awesome
Apart from that bug most changes are in good direction, specially the rework on Conqueror last feat, but as many people already posted, you left the other paths more useless, most GF's on live choose Conqueror cause the other trees doesnt offer any significant to say, hey that looks interesting. The duration of the shield for me (Conq Spec.) is now more acceptable, last around 7 secs.
On the other part even with the buff that you give to our Tab skill is still useless on PvE, the mayor concern of GF's apart from their insane low damage is that we are almost forgotten on PvE, and thanks to mod 3 we were nerfed into the ground on PVP, the new 20% DR debuff just work on PVP, cause ArP is really easy to stack for GF's and reach the famous 24% for PvE content.
Even with the rework on Conqueror tree, the total buff around damage is around 5%(not counting crit bonus), GF's on live can stack power close to 10K with no mayor issues and is still far low of what the class really need. Someone already posted that you took the easy path to address damage, but the others paths also need damage not just conqueror, we asking Dev's to REALLY look at the base damage/power bonus/stats of all weapons and see why GF's are asking not just more weapon base damage, we are also asking for better stats.
Still not a single reply about armor sets bonus effects on GF's, thrash/bugged feats and a serious rework on our Tab, the new buffed version is USELESS for PvE and maybe soon or later the rage of CW/GWF/TR/HR gonna come asking for a nerf on that because ignoring 20% of their DR is HUGE.
That being said these are a couple of suggestions:
1. Sorry but i need to put this on caps, WHEN YOU NEED TO ADDRESS A PROBLEM YOU NEED TO GO DIRECTLY TO THE CORE, stop trying to recreate the wheel that is already invented and look where the problem really is, WEAPON DAMAGE, everybody knows that weapon damage is connected to almost everything and that's why we are asking for a buff on it. Doesnt make any sense that a SWORD and specially a one handed one cause less damage than an floating stone where CW start to grab thing to throw on you or a DC symbol that shot whatever from the sky.
2. Mark: Mark debuff should stay the same (8% DR), make marks last a fixed amount of time (3-5secs) and not disappear when we are hit, this will gonna help Sent GWF and GF's on keeping threat/aggro (we are tanks, we are supposed to get attacked a lot) and CA bonus for teammates.
3. Tab Rework, forget about keeping buffing the current GF's Tab is useless and the new situation that you bring to us by buffing ET cap with no way to handle all the damage is a dead sentence for GF's. This idea i think is more useful, no overpowered and will gonna bring some love to the other tree paths. I called Knight Challenge: For each marked target you increase your damage resistance by 0.5%, this effect can stack upto 20 times, last 15 secs. Basically when we are surrounded by adds we get upto 10% more DR, putting less stress on DC when AS is on CD, is not broken for PVP cause at max we can get 2.5% more DR.
4. Protector capstone feat Rework: You now reduce the damage from all resources 2% for each attack, this effect can stack upto 5 times. Also now Knight Challenge gives an additionally 0.5% damage resistance per stack, basically with this we make the TANK tree the most defensive one, something close to what Sent GWF capstone feat brings to unstoppable but addressed by other way.
5. Tactician capstone feat Rework: Add the effect that Knight Challenge gives 0.5% more deflect chance per stack.
6. Armor bonus sets, Timeless hero, increase the effect from 6 to 10 secs and give us a second offensive stat, more in line with AoW bonus. High General remove internal CD and increase critical severy bonus from 10 to 15% and make GF affected by this proc too.
7. Feats: Remove Potent Challenge, you already boosted upto the sky threat generation, give us something useful there, rework all temporary HP feats, first insane CD for a class designed to take damage and also their bonus is too small.
Even if its fixed gwf can still hit us around 2-5 k dmg... i just dont get why we cant have 100% again, our shield was never strong anyway. Just my opinion, i prefer the old block much better.
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5k? Are you kidding?
if you have 50% DR, 20% tenacity do you know how much damage it takes to hit you for 5k? Currently on the PTR it would only take about 25k - which is doable by GWFs.
When its working as intended. that same 25k hit will be reduced to 2,000 on their best IBS... So theres alot still left there. Also thats without deflecting it....
Also if your losing to a Destroyer GWF who hits you for 2k dmg through block, your doing it wrong. Destroyers are a joke now... Sents are hard to kill but deal no damage.
TO further this, if a GWf is attacking you and your spamming shield bash you can keep your block up almost permanently... Then turn around and bunt him with bullrush, floruish with a stun and lunge as well... Or just slot iron warrior and you basically can perma block anybody...
and what about multiple opponents ? getting hit 2ks through shield is just to much when it can be done multiple times...
Also yes i have 50% dr and 21% tenacity but that still wont stop all the spamming dmg getting through my shield, it may be small but it all ads up man and i dont see why we should even be damaged while blocking.
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Who can hit you for 2k multiple times?... An IBS is on a 16+ second CD and crits for 25k... that will net 2k...
What did you do on live when 2 ppl even just looked at you and your block was gone within 2 seconds?
Most GWF at wills hit for likr 500-600 dmg... well that 600 damage turns into 48 damage..... Id rather take 48 damage from a GWF at will 4x in 2 seconds then have my guard be half gone with those same hits...
Again, currently its not working how its supposed to, youll take ALOT less damage when its fixed.
As far as block duration, I think its only OK. Not quite what I was hoping it would be, but I think I can make it work. At the very least it seems you can spec for almsot a near 100% uptime on block if played correctly with IW... It would involve some prones and possibly CC for recharge + shield talent but I think itll be good.
71% DR in PvP + Blocking = 5.8% of the damage will hit you..., 100K of damage going to you will be translated to only 5.8K and you can deflect some attacks... even if someone stack a lot of ArP and have GPF, etc... the best that they will do is 20%, it's a 80% DR at the worst case!!, we have to test it on live when the guard is fixed, I think it will be good.
New Block
- It is going to get fixed, but I think it is bugged in regards to AP gain. My GF is getting about 1/3-1/4 of the dailies I get on life, same spec, same recovery. Taking a TON of damage blocking, but that should get fixed.
- Damage is not bad, but it's obvious the capstone is not working.
- Iron Vangard is essentially useless. Bull does WEAK damage, Frontline is critting for about 2k lol... That was max. Threat Rush isn't hitting hard at alllllllll.
- I feel faster, but swordmaster is clunky, does pretty good damage, Haven't tested Tact, or Protector yet. After damage boost and shield fix it could be alright though.
Other Classes
Hr's are 10x what they were on mod 3, TR are still unkillable (Enemy Team and CS TR's, as well as a few top Synergy TR's)
GWF's - reroll another class until fixes are made, I took out a destroyer without losing more than 1k hp, took out a sent in rank 10's losing about 5k HP.
When fighting gwf i dont just stand there with my shield up, i kite him and onyl block on heavy hits so i love the old shield system just a little buff would have been perfect. Also i mean when surrounded, in icewind or domination you could have 3 or more players hitting you and with all that dmg as small as it is, it will add up and i dont like the idea of taking any dmg through my shield.
In icewind in the past i had NO debuffs and with my 50% dr and 21% tenacity a CW hit me 35k in 1 hit of ice spike.....the old block can just lift up and block the whole dmg if you are prepared but the new block will make me still take decent amount of dmg.
As for 100% uptime, i dont want to spec for that and just go for that then you would be weaker in other areas, i dont mind the duration so much now but as you said in a past post, faster stamina regen would be good. I would also like it if iron warrior got a buff or to give more temp hp and faster cooldown.
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