1. Unlimited Guard; is by far one of the best options. But I'm sure it's overlooked by Devs because they think GF's would just sit on PvP nodes all day, never dying, causing an imbalance in PvP because they "can't be killed," bla bla bla, GF's overpowered... I can list SEVERAL good reasons why this will be false.
To me it sounds too much, it's true that it need a rework, but going from an easily destructible guard to an unlimited guard it's turning the situation 180 degrees... just having 2 or more GF could be a sentence to win the game, also, 1GF v/s 1GF would be eternal... I think we need 35% more guard meter, and with a buff in our guard regeneration we should be ok.
• Armor of Bahamut Feat - Should reduce all incoming damage by 30% when guard is broken.
Again, I agree, but 30% would be a lot (if you have 52% DR, you would end with 82% DR), and I see other problem, when the shield breaks we are very vulnerable to CC (if our powers aren't ready to use), we are like one of those trainning dummies in PE, then I think it might be better to have +2/4/6/8/10 DR and +4/8/12/16/20 CC Resistance while the Guard is Break, it sounds more versatile to me and not so OP as +30 DR%.
Deflection - should come naturally to us, like crit comes naturally to CW's, TR's, HR's, GWF's, and DC's... GF's should have EASY access to 35% deflection from DEX at 15.
Agreed, due to the fact that we have a shield, it should be NATURAL to us to deflect attacks, the current situation is that every Dex above 10 give us 0.5% Deflection Chance, change it to +1% Deflect per Dex above and a lot of GF should be getting +3.5%/5% of Deflection Chance.
• Guarded Assault - should reflect 15-25% of all blocked damage at 3/3pts.
Agreed, a realistic percentage for me is 15%.
Also I would like to add that.
1. Enfoced Threath should have (at least) +4 radius effect, and how it says in the post, increase it's cap.
2. There should be another ways to get more DR, GF should be who Tank all the mobs, and in my case (and anywone who use Knight's Valor) who intercepts a huge part of the 5 members of the party.
3. Give to our At-Wills a better range, radious and damage, so this will help to keep the mobs at us.
4. We don't have enough HP, since we are the Tanks whe should have a considerability amount of HP, more than GWF, and all classes, make CON gives you 3.5% of HP and we should have something like 20% more HP, which sounds good and not so OP.
The only problems I see with Knee Breaker & Griffin's Wrath is that it shouldn't be wasted if they don't hit.
PS: To the GF master who posted this... This class isn't extremelly bad, it requires adjustments and arrangements, I see good points in your post, but you put very large changes and I'm sure Devs will past by when they see that you want stuff like unlimited guard or +30% DR when guard is break... so I recommend you to edit those stuff, and rethink what would be the changes that make PvP fair for ALL CLASSES...
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
Mmmm... Good review, even so there are some things I would like to say, because I think you overreacted some things:
To me it sounds too much, it's true that it need a rework, but going from an easily destructible guard to an unlimited guard it's turning the situation 180 degrees... just having 2 or more GF could be a sentence to win the game, also, 1GF v/s 1GF would be eternal... I think we need 35% more guard meter, and with a buff in our guard regeneration we should be ok.
Again, I agree, but 30% would be a lot (if you have 52% DR, you would end with 82% DR), and I see other problem, when the shield breaks we are very vulnerable to CC (if our powers aren't ready to use), we are like one of those trainning dummies in PE, then I think it might be better to have +2/4/6/8/10 DR and +4/8/12/16/20 CC Resistance while the Guard is Break, it sounds more versatile to me and not so OP as +30 DR%.
Agreed, due to the fact that we have a shield, it should be NATURAL to us to deflect attacks, the current situation is that every Dex above 10 give us 0.5% Deflection Chance, change it to +1% Deflect per Dex above and a lot of GF should be getting +3.5%/5% of Deflection Chance.
Agreed, a realistic percentage for me is 15%.
Also I would like to add that.
1. Enfoced Threath should have (at least) +4 radius effect, and how it says in the post, increase it's cap.
2. There should be another ways to get more DR, GF should be who Tank all the mobs, and in my case (and anywone who use Knight's Valor) who intercepts a huge part of the 5 members of the party.
3. Give to our At-Wills a better range, radious and damage, so this will help to keep the mobs at us.
4. We don't have enough HP, since we are the Tanks whe should have a considerability amount of HP, more than GWF, and all classes, make CON gives you 3.5% of HP and we should have something like 20% more HP, which sounds good and not so OP.
The only problems I see with Knee Breaker & Griffin's Wrath is that it shouldn't be wasted if they don't hit.
PS: To the GF master who posted this... This class isn't extremelly bad, it requires adjustments and arrangements, I see good points in your post, but you put very large changes and I'm sure Devs will past by when they see that you want stuff like unlimited guard or +30% DR when guard is break... so I recommend you to edit those stuff, and rethink what would be the changes that make PvP fair for ALL CLASSES...
Agreed, some of my suggestions are a bit excessive. But they still get my point across, and that's what matters most. Plus, the Devs can still agree like you do, and just make their own adjustments. But as long as the idea is there, they have something too work with.
Mmmm... Good review, even so there are some things I would like to say, because I think you overreacted some things:
To me it sounds too much, it's true that it need a rework, but going from an easily destructible guard to an unlimited guard it's turning the situation 180 degrees... just having 2 or more GF could be a sentence to win the game, also, 1GF v/s 1GF would be eternal... I think we need 35% more guard meter, and with a buff in our guard regeneration we should be ok.
Again, I agree, but 30% would be a lot (if you have 52% DR, you would end with 82% DR), and I see other problem, when the shield breaks we are very vulnerable to CC (if our powers aren't ready to use), we are like one of those trainning dummies in PE, then I think it might be better to have +2/4/6/8/10 DR and +4/8/12/16/20 CC Resistance while the Guard is Break, it sounds more versatile to me and not so OP as +30 DR%.
Agreed, due to the fact that we have a shield, it should be NATURAL to us to deflect attacks, the current situation is that every Dex above 10 give us 0.5% Deflection Chance, change it to +1% Deflect per Dex above and a lot of GF should be getting +3.5%/5% of Deflection Chance.
Agreed, a realistic percentage for me is 15%.
Also I would like to add that.
1. Enfoced Threath should have (at least) +4 radius effect, and how it says in the post, increase it's cap.
2. There should be another ways to get more DR, GF should be who Tank all the mobs, and in my case (and anywone who use Knight's Valor) who intercepts a huge part of the 5 members of the party.
3. Give to our At-Wills a better range, radious and damage, so this will help to keep the mobs at us.
4. We don't have enough HP, since we are the Tanks whe should have a considerability amount of HP, more than GWF, and all classes, make CON gives you 3.5% of HP and we should have something like 20% more HP, which sounds good and not so OP.
The only problems I see with Knee Breaker & Griffin's Wrath is that it shouldn't be wasted if they don't hit.
PS: To the GF master who posted this... This class isn't extremelly bad, it requires adjustments and arrangements, I see good points in your post, but you put very large changes and I'm sure Devs will past by when they see that you want stuff like unlimited guard or +30% DR when guard is break... so I recommend you to edit those stuff, and rethink what would be the changes that make PvP fair for ALL CLASSES...
I vote you for new GF dev!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Hey ant, it's me Heath, we met yesterday along with Feral, this the guide you talking about right? I know it's edited 14th but released march I was bout to say, if this is one youw er talking about hahah.
Agreed, some of my suggestions are a bit excessive. But they still get my point across, and that's what matters most. Plus, the Devs can still agree like you do, and just make their own adjustments. But as long as the idea is there, they have something too work with.
Who cares how excessive the suggestions are considering how excessive the class was intentionally (?) ignored.
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shadowboxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
Wassup players, my name is Ant-Monster. I am currently 1 of the 7 GF Masters.
Umm okay? i hope this is a joke.
1. Unlimited Guard; is by far one of the best options. But I'm sure it's overlooked by Devs because they think GF's would just sit on PvP nodes all day, never dying, causing an imbalance in PvP because they "can't be killed," bla bla bla, GF's overpowered... I can list SEVERAL good reasons why this will be false.
A). The GF's #1 threat in PvP is the Control Wizard. The CW has the ability to slow and freeze the GF using Ray of Frost even if the GF is guarding. Once the GF is frozen by the chill stacks, he's controllable. Typically the CW will freeze the GF, Entangling Force him/her, and then blow through their encounters and repeat the process.
Annd now you are going off the deep end.....
GWF's DO NOT DESERVE OUR POWERS. They're causing nothing but trouble for us!
There is so much wrong with this post i could cry, but i'll give you one thing, GFs need a buff and they are hurting right now in PvE and PvP i get it i really do, but these suggestions are going to get you nowhere, first for a true tank to be at all useful in dungeons every single one of them would have to be completely reworked and that's not going to happen so let's be realistic.
In my opinion there are a few things that need to happen to make GFs viable and they are as follows.
1: Buff CW control and nerf their damage substantially, this will remove the need for having more than 1 CW in a group while still maintaining a niche where CWs are still a very useful class (this would also help HRs and TRs by giving groups more DPS options), and let's not forget wizards in 4.0 never did a ton of damage to begin with they always were about positioning and helping the team more effectively take down enemies.
2: Fix the bugs with GFs to free up more build options by making Knights Valor and many other abilities viable, as some of your support abilities are just bonkers if they actually worked 100% of the time, i used to play with a GF who built purely Deflect/Defense/Recovery and he would stand in astral shield pop Knights Valor and our team literally couldn't die, if you guys could reliably do this GFs would be much more in demand especially with a lower need for CW.
4: Make your animation speeds slightly faster for guarding and a few other select abilities, and increase the base damage on your abilities especially those in the Swordmaster tree, this would reliably give you an option for DPS builds and make your mobility issues much less prevalent.
5: Last make GF marks last until the duration runs out, and not when you are struck, this would give tank GFs a niche in that you would be the only class with semi permanent marks which would substantially improve your PvE viability coupled with the other changes i listed.
Obviously this is just my take on things, but it seems like a lot of your suggestions are just not realistic or are just straight not addressing the real issues with the class.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
It's no joke, and it's NOT self proclaimed, AND there's about 27 GF masters now. When there were only 7, It sounded bada** to be 1 of 7. But anyways, a GFM is someone who's MASTERED the GF class.
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shadowboxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
It's no joke, and it's NOT self proclaimed, AND there's about 27 GF masters now. When there were only 7, I sounded bada** to be 1 of 7. But anyways, a GFM is someone who's MASTERED the GF class.
So what you are saying is that only a "GFM" can say if someone else is one, so basically this nonsense is just people proclaiming they are "GFM" and then saying "Hey this guy is also a GFM" which is just some made up title to make people feel good about themselves?
This is the most idiotic thing i've read on here in a while, i should go make a GWFM club i name a couple good GWF i know as also being "Masters" and then talk about the class like i know exactly how they need to balance it, this thread is just the worst....
I could care less who other people think are a master or not. The solution to gf problems seems quite simple to me. More defense, or more damage. right now one does not balance the other.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
I could care less who other people think are a master or not. The solution to gf problems seems quite simple to me. More defense, or more damage. right now one does not balance the other.
You said it brah!!
So what's it gonna be PWE lol!?
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
Hi Ant-Monster,
This is Harrivenger a MI TR. I have grouped with you in one of the PUG 5v5 and I would like to say you are one of the best GF I have grouped with. You know your class well and you can hold against the opponents even when you are out-numbered by 1 to 3 (If I remember correctly, it is 2 x GWF and 1 x CW).
It is my honor and pleasure to have group with you in the 5v5 PvP.
Hi Ant-Monster,
This is Harrivenger a MI TR. I have grouped with you in one of the PUG 5v5 and I would like to say you are one of the best GF I have grouped with. You know your class well and you can hold against the opponents even when you are out-numbered by 1 to 3 (If I remember correctly, it is 2 x GWF and 1 x CW).
It is my honor and pleasure to have group with you in the 5v5 PvP.
Really? 2 GWFs and 1 CW failed to obliterate a single GF? If a CW manages to cc a GF even for a second, 2 GWFs will break it so fast you'll miss it if you blink. Are you sure you were fighting people with equal abiltiy and GS? Judging how good or bad someone is solely on bad match ups aint exactly an accurate way to assess. I have accumulated some PuG experience as a GWF and as a GF. The verdict is simple - a GWF can win in an average to bad team. A GF absolutely needs a good team or he dies a horrible 1vs3/4/5 death. Ant knows this too, thats why he runs premade groups hoping to turn the match into a prone fest with all those GFs using knockdowns.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
Really? 2 GWFs and 1 CW failed to obliterate a single GF? If a CW manages to cc a GF even for a second, 2 GWFs will break it so fast you'll miss it if you blink. Are you sure you were fighting people with equal abiltiy and GS? Judging how good or bad someone is solely on bad match ups aint exactly an accurate way to assess. I have accumulated some PuG experience as a GWF and as a GF. The verdict is simple - a GWF can win in an average to bad team. A GF absolutely needs a good team or he dies a horrible 1vs3/4/5 death. Ant knows this too, thats why he runs premade groups hoping to turn the match into a prone fest with all those GFs using knockdowns.
Lol this guy...
1. I'm often times found running with a lot of GF's because they're my friends. And we all like to PvP, so we just Q. Nothing more, nothing less.
2. And yes, I tanked 2 GWF's and killed the CW. Wanna know my secret? Villain's Menace + kiting around objects. The GWF's didn't get a chance to CC me because of Villain's Menace, and because I kept kiting them around the stone pillars on the Riverside. Not saying I didn't die, but I maintained long enough for back up but died when I lost my guard meter running for a pot.
1. I'm often times found running with a lot of GF's because they're my friends. And we all like to PvP, so we just Q. Nothing more, nothing less.
2. And yes, I tanked 2 GWF's and killed the CW. Wanna know my secret? Villain's Menace + kiting around objects. The GWF's didn't get a chance to CC me because of Villain's Menace, and because I kept kiting them around the stone pillars on the Riverside. Not saying I didn't die, but I maintained long enough for back up but died when I lost my guard meter running for a pot.
Like I said bad match ups are not a reliable indicator. I can see what you describe happening if those players you were up against have low both GS and experience. If we are talking GF vs GWF 1 on 1 with equal gear then the the player with more knowledge of both classes wins.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
Like I said bad match ups are not a reliable indicator. I can see what you describe happening if those players you were up against have low both GS and experience. If we are talking GF vs GWF 1 on 1 with equal gear then the the player with more knowledge of both classes wins.
Thats <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, i know both classes VERY well, my main is a GF and i will EVER, ALWAYS lose 1vs1 with in to a GWF and i will NEVER lose to a GF with my destroyer GWF, the ironic part is that my GWF just got to level 60, is full of blues and have no epic enchant.
There is NOTHING you can do against a GWF as GF, i am conqueror, still my defence is almost at cap and i still lose 75% of my HP to a single Indomitable Battle StrIke, ok, i am a conqueror, but it still stupid and broken.
I had a hard time understanding your first 2 sentences, I think there might be some typos in there !
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guille23mxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Thats <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, i know both classes VERY well, my main is a GF and i will EVER, ALWAYS lose 1vs1 with in to a GWF and i will NEVER lose to a GF with my destroyer GWF, the ironic part is that my GWF just got to level 60, is full of blues and have no epic enchant.
There is NOTHING you can do against a GWF as GF, i am conqueror, still my defence is almost at cap and i still lose 75% of my HP to a single Indomitable Battle StrIke, ok, i am a conqueror, but it still stupid and broken.
I have BEATEN AWESOME GWF on my GF 1 on 1.
Yeah you can beat them but its harder... much harder for you than for them!
You need to be CONQUEROR.
You need lots of ARMPEN...3000-3500+ Perfect Terror/Greater Plague Fire
and Decent Crit and Power.
Around 30-35k HP/ the more the better and when the fight comes be at your TOP GAME... don't make mistakes and time well your Prones Combos and Know when to Raise Shield, When to Run a Little or Facetank and Which Dailyes/Abilities to use and make your slow hits and encounters count.
They can be Beaten through Prones... but you need to Hit harder, Break defense ASAP and
move when they Unstopable and Prone them when theyre not. This is kinda a Dance.
I hit them proned and make him eat all my combo...if I didn't kill him... then hell unstop... ill run a little
and block his proned hits and then I run a little more, eat some hits and block some more,run and facetank some tehn when hes out of prones its my turn to send him flying..etc
The One with Better Gear, make less mistakes and put more attention and gets its dailys faster gets to win .
I have BEATEN AWESOME GWF on my GF 1 on 1.
Yeah you can beat them but its harder... much harder for you than for them!
You need to be CONQUEROR.
You need lots of ARMPEN...3000-3500+ Perfect Terror/Greater Plague Fire
and Decent Crit and Power.
Around 30-35k HP/ the more the better and when the fight comes be at your TOP GAME... don't make mistakes and time well your Prones Combos and Know when to Raise Shield, When to Run a Little or Facetank and Which Dailyes/Abilities to use and make your slow hits and encounters count.
They can be Beaten through Prones... but you need to Hit harder, Break defense ASAP and
move when they Unstopable and Prone them when theyre not. This is kinda a Dance.
I hit them proned and make him eat all my combo...if I didn't kill him... then hell unstop... ill run a little
and block his proned hits and then I run a little more, eat some hits and block some more,run and facetank some tehn when hes out of prones its my turn to send him flying..etc
The One with Better Gear, make less mistakes and put more attention and gets its dailys faster gets to win .
Pretty much this ^
And when you, as a GF, are the last man standing the feeling is quite good
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
As I do not find a recent post for GF feedback, I post here.
I am a new player. I joined the game between Mod 2 & 3, so I do not know how the game evolved since its start. But I can at least tell what seems to be wrong or lacking for this class.
My first character is a GF. I love playing tank but in Neverwinter, this role is a little different of what I am used to. I keep trying to improve my gameplay and my knowledge about its mechanics.
I began leveling choosing Iron Vanguard and mainly put points in Protector. It was a self-made build from scratch and I thought I was doing well, I reach level 60 without much trouble anyway.
When you are level max, usually it is when you find the real purpose of each ability you got, each point you spent to fit your needs. I was tanky but could not take down mobs on my own.
I realised that not only you need stuff (it is obvious) but you need a good build too. Mine was not bad but taking a lot of time to do daily quests is a pain.
I looked for a DPS build because with a tanky build I do not succeed to kill mobs and stay alive, so I should better kill them before they kill me. Thanks to Rokuthy's guide, I reached a point where I was tankier with good DPS. That is why I think GFs mostly have DPS builds. Damage is always convenient in any situation.
I learned the hard way what playing GF is. I am proud to do well enough to get my whole Timeless Hero. It made a big difference when I had it all. I did not know GF was so gear-dependent. I survive much better now with no point in Protector.
I read people complaining about threat. I do not remember having threat issues even with my old build. It was just a matter of damage at that time.
I am leveling a second GF (how stubborn of me), Swordmaster/Tactician. It really changes from what I am used to now and I enjoy it. I like the skills but it lacks a AoE-encounter (Frontline Surge in Iron Vanguard is awesome). Even going Swordmaster, you should still be able to fulfill the purpose of the class and have some powers allowing you to do so.
With Iron Vanguard, to keep aggro, I use Enforced Threat and Frontline Surge and while they are prone, I use Threatening Rush and Cleave. Mobs are marked, I lose little to no time rushing them and make damages to increase my aggro. I still have the 3rd encounter slot available for anything, I choose between Lunging Strike, Into the Fray or Bull Charge, it mainly depends on the battle.
With Swordmaster, I have some issues, Enforced Threat is not always up and when adds spawn, even if I Cleave them 2-3 times, another player can take aggro easily because they are not marked, Enhanced Mark is useless in this case... I make use of Tab but if you mark each target when Enforced Threat is on cooldown, you do not build threat on current marked targets and do not make damage, gain action point, ... I hope to find a gameplay suitable enough to do fine. It is maybe not possible to achieve this with the current powers.
I really like the idea of making damage/building threat with Into the Fray. I went Swordmaster because I find the power good and when you put points to improve it, you bring a buff to the party. Why not adding another effect when you reach 5/5.
Also, I do not find Flourish that good. It is a single target power with a long animation. With a lot of enemies around you, there is a great chance you are interupted.
I like the trick with building threat with Knight's Valor, it may be worth with Swordmaster. I am 56, some more points and I will try it.
Weapon Master's Strike is a good at-will. Damages are tiny but the debuff is fine (I do not know by how much it increases the damage though). But what surprises me is when I use Cleave after, I do not reach all the debuffed targets... WMS has a better reach and Cleave should have the same. Sometimes, I ended up using WMS as main at-will until there is 1 line of enemies remaining. I made sure to lose this "bad" habit and use it once every 5-6 seconds.
There is something wrong with GF's damage. It is really too low. As a tank, I knew from the start that I will not be on top without effort compared to other classes.
Yesterday, I searched the forum to understand what led to this low DPS. Because... I fought a zombie cleric for ~10min. I was so mad not being able to kill this mob before his heal, and he found a way to cast it again after I interupted it with Bull Charge... I was lucky, there were only 2 other mobs in the room.
I do not care being last in the charts but not being able to kill a single mob, there is a huge difference. Creating a group for this, it would be such a pity.
Improvements can be done.
I prefer adding a bonus to guard like protecting people behind it or receiving a buff. Your guard meter decreases so fast when you have a whole pack, quick or hard hitters that it is safer to avoid damages. Sometimes, you guard when you are in lazy mode and know you do not risk much.
I like the idea of increasing weapon damage to increase overall damage. Every build will benefit from it. It will allow a wider choice of gameplay. You can slot powers to bring something useful instead of the ones which deal the highest damages. Curiously, the best ones tend to deal high damages.
Also, animations are too long. In my opinion, tanking should be about reactivity too.
Long animations = no guard, no movement. All I seem to do is avoiding red areas and GF is so slow...
Bringing buffs and debuffs is awesome. But if the GF is kiting, how is it possible to buff the whole party or debuffing the boss ?
For example, in Frozen Heart, the GF usually kites the horde of adds. The kiting is easy but when you stop running, adds launch their attacks and you need to avoid someone getting caught in those red areas.
Bufffing your party with Into the Fray is hard, uptime should be low.
Same with WMS, Tide of Iron, melee range...
Buff/debuff is broken in situation where it is useful. Luckily, all fights are not like those in FH.
I may have other things to tell but it is actually what I find important.
I let those who are more experienced dealing with numbers and tweaks.
I do not PvP much, but improving PvE should improve PvP a little.
This is just my experience from playing the game these past months, nothing more.
I wanted to share it since I find the game fun and some changes can allow GFs to be more reliable and maybe attract some new players like myself.
---
TL;DR : Give us some more weapon damage, every build will benefit from it.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
As I do not find a recent post for GF feedback, I post here.
I am a new player. I joined the game between Mod 2 & 3, so I do not know how the game evolved since its start. But I can at least tell what seems to be wrong or lacking for this class.
My first character is a GF. I love playing tank but in Neverwinter, this role is a little different of what I am used to. I keep trying to improve my gameplay and my knowledge about its mechanics.
I began leveling choosing Iron Vanguard and mainly put points in Protector. It was a self-made build from scratch and I thought I was doing well, I reach level 60 without much trouble anyway.
When you are level max, usually it is when you find the real purpose of each ability you got, each point you spent to fit your needs. I was tanky but could not take down mobs on my own.
I realised that not only you need stuff (it is obvious) but you need a good build too. Mine was not bad but taking a lot of time to do daily quests is a pain.
I looked for a DPS build because with a tanky build I do not succeed to kill mobs and stay alive, so I should better kill them before they kill me. Thanks to Rokuthy's guide, I reached a point where I was tankier with good DPS. That is why I think GFs mostly have DPS builds. Damage is always convenient in any situation.
I learned the hard way what playing GF is. I am proud to do well enough to get my whole Timeless Hero. It made a big difference when I had it all. I did not know GF was so gear-dependent. I survive much better now with no point in Protector.
I read people complaining about threat. I do not remember having threat issues even with my old build. It was just a matter of damage at that time.
I am leveling a second GF (how stubborn of me), Swordmaster/Tactician. It really changes from what I am used to now and I enjoy it. I like the skills but it lacks a AoE-encounter (Frontline Surge in Iron Vanguard is awesome). Even going Swordmaster, you should still be able to fulfill the purpose of the class and have some powers allowing you to do so.
With Iron Vanguard, to keep aggro, I use Enforced Threat and Frontline Surge and while they are prone, I use Threatening Rush and Cleave. Mobs are marked, I lose little to no time rushing them and make damages to increase my aggro. I still have the 3rd encounter slot available for anything, I choose between Lunging Strike, Into the Fray or Bull Charge, it mainly depends on the battle.
With Swordmaster, I have some issues, Enforced Threat is not always up and when adds spawn, even if I Cleave them 2-3 times, another player can take aggro easily because they are not marked, Enhanced Mark is useless in this case... I make use of Tab but if you mark each target when Enforced Threat is on cooldown, you do not build threat on current marked targets and do not make damage, gain action point, ... I hope to find a gameplay suitable enough to do fine. It is maybe not possible to achieve this with the current powers.
I really like the idea of making damage/building threat with Into the Fray. I went Swordmaster because I find the power good and when you put points to improve it, you bring a buff to the party. Why not adding another effect when you reach 5/5.
Also, I do not find Flourish that good. It is a single target power with a long animation. With a lot of enemies around you, there is a great chance you are interupted.
I like the trick with building threat with Knight's Valor, it may be worth with Swordmaster. I am 56, some more points and I will try it.
Weapon Master's Strike is a good at-will. Damages are tiny but the debuff is fine (I do not know by how much it increases the damage though). But what surprises me is when I use Cleave after, I do not reach all the debuffed targets... WMS has a better reach and Cleave should have the same. Sometimes, I ended up using WMS as main at-will until there is 1 line of enemies remaining. I made sure to lose this "bad" habit and use it once every 5-6 seconds.
There is something wrong with GF's damage. It is really too low. As a tank, I knew from the start that I will not be on top without effort compared to other classes.
Yesterday, I searched the forum to understand what led to this low DPS. Because... I fought a zombie cleric for ~10min. I was so mad not being able to kill this mob before his heal, and he found a way to cast it again after I interupted it with Bull Charge... I was lucky, there were only 2 other mobs in the room.
I do not care being last in the charts but not being able to kill a single mob, there is a huge difference. Creating a group for this, it would be such a pity.
Improvements can be done.
I prefer adding a bonus to guard like protecting people behind it or receiving a buff. Your guard meter decreases so fast when you have a whole pack, quick or hard hitters that it is safer to avoid damages. Sometimes, you guard when you are in lazy mode and know you do not risk much.
I like the idea of increasing weapon damage to increase overall damage. Every build will benefit from it. It will allow a wider choice of gameplay. You can slot powers to bring something useful instead of the ones which deal the highest damages. Curiously, the best ones tend to deal high damages.
Also, animations are too long. In my opinion, tanking should be about reactivity too.
Long animations = no guard, no movement. All I seem to do is avoiding red areas and GF is so slow...
Bringing buffs and debuffs is awesome. But if the GF is kiting, how is it possible to buff the whole party or debuffing the boss ?
For example, in Frozen Heart, the GF usually kites the horde of adds. The kiting is easy but when you stop running, adds launch their attacks and you need to avoid someone getting caught in those red areas.
Bufffing your party with Into the Fray is hard, uptime should be low.
Same with WMS, Tide of Iron, melee range...
Buff/debuff is broken in situation where it is useful. Luckily, all fights are not like those in FH.
I may have other things to tell but it is actually what I find important.
I let those who are more experienced dealing with numbers and tweaks.
I do not PvP much, but improving PvE should improve PvP a little.
This is just my experience from playing the game these past months, nothing more.
I wanted to share it since I find the game fun and some changes can allow GFs to be more reliable and maybe attract some new players like myself.
---
TL;DR : Give us some more weapon damage, every build will benefit from it.
Nice nice. Also, your writing format is quite different. Where do you live/go to school?
Alot of these suggestions feel like you are just throwing out randomness to me without much insight. Many are just really over the top.
- unbreakable block for one is absurd.
- Some of the feat change suggestions are good like deflection going up to 10%
- Guarded assault should only be buffed to 10% max, including buffs. 30% is insane Do you know how this feat works? You would kill everyone with just your shield.
- The reason why our griffon wrath etc are hard to land is because our encounters are all melee range, if you look at GWF their encounters/at-wills have a "range" like 13 feet to land takedown (the pommel strike). a solution here would be to increase the range of encounters slightly to make them more viable.
- Mark still isn't good enough. This "special" mark should have double the effects of a normal one, so when your party members see this "nice shiny GF mark" they really want to hit it.
- Tenancy was MUCH needed, i sometimes go into PvP queue and come across the odd low-zero tenacy player, and i pretty much one shot them with a rotation. Those days should not come back, just because its fun for us, does not mean it is for them. Oh and its not the reason GWFs are tanky, they do that in PvE too its because their unstoppable grants them 50% damge resistance when max determination (which is when most GWFs pop it)
- Best leave the other class nerf suggestions to one of the seven masters of those class.
Oh about the 7 GF masters... I'm pretty sure theres alot who are knowledgable about this class, not saying GF is a **** class. But there is just not much to it.
Comments
To me it sounds too much, it's true that it need a rework, but going from an easily destructible guard to an unlimited guard it's turning the situation 180 degrees... just having 2 or more GF could be a sentence to win the game, also, 1GF v/s 1GF would be eternal... I think we need 35% more guard meter, and with a buff in our guard regeneration we should be ok.
Again, I agree, but 30% would be a lot (if you have 52% DR, you would end with 82% DR), and I see other problem, when the shield breaks we are very vulnerable to CC (if our powers aren't ready to use), we are like one of those trainning dummies in PE, then I think it might be better to have +2/4/6/8/10 DR and +4/8/12/16/20 CC Resistance while the Guard is Break, it sounds more versatile to me and not so OP as +30 DR%.
Agreed, due to the fact that we have a shield, it should be NATURAL to us to deflect attacks, the current situation is that every Dex above 10 give us 0.5% Deflection Chance, change it to +1% Deflect per Dex above and a lot of GF should be getting +3.5%/5% of Deflection Chance.
Agreed, a realistic percentage for me is 15%.
Also I would like to add that.
1. Enfoced Threath should have (at least) +4 radius effect, and how it says in the post, increase it's cap.
2. There should be another ways to get more DR, GF should be who Tank all the mobs, and in my case (and anywone who use Knight's Valor) who intercepts a huge part of the 5 members of the party.
3. Give to our At-Wills a better range, radious and damage, so this will help to keep the mobs at us.
4. We don't have enough HP, since we are the Tanks whe should have a considerability amount of HP, more than GWF, and all classes, make CON gives you 3.5% of HP and we should have something like 20% more HP, which sounds good and not so OP.
The only problems I see with Knee Breaker & Griffin's Wrath is that it shouldn't be wasted if they don't hit.
PS: To the GF master who posted this... This class isn't extremelly bad, it requires adjustments and arrangements, I see good points in your post, but you put very large changes and I'm sure Devs will past by when they see that you want stuff like unlimited guard or +30% DR when guard is break... so I recommend you to edit those stuff, and rethink what would be the changes that make PvP fair for ALL CLASSES...
Agreed, some of my suggestions are a bit excessive. But they still get my point across, and that's what matters most. Plus, the Devs can still agree like you do, and just make their own adjustments. But as long as the idea is there, they have something too work with.
I vote you for new GF dev!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I don't think he is boasting he's a baddass! i think more the SS is to show you can be successful and not always a target dummy.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Who cares how excessive the suggestions are considering how excessive the class was intentionally (?) ignored.
Umm okay? i hope this is a joke.
Annd now you are going off the deep end.....
There is so much wrong with this post i could cry, but i'll give you one thing, GFs need a buff and they are hurting right now in PvE and PvP i get it i really do, but these suggestions are going to get you nowhere, first for a true tank to be at all useful in dungeons every single one of them would have to be completely reworked and that's not going to happen so let's be realistic.
In my opinion there are a few things that need to happen to make GFs viable and they are as follows.
1: Buff CW control and nerf their damage substantially, this will remove the need for having more than 1 CW in a group while still maintaining a niche where CWs are still a very useful class (this would also help HRs and TRs by giving groups more DPS options), and let's not forget wizards in 4.0 never did a ton of damage to begin with they always were about positioning and helping the team more effectively take down enemies.
2: Fix the bugs with GFs to free up more build options by making Knights Valor and many other abilities viable, as some of your support abilities are just bonkers if they actually worked 100% of the time, i used to play with a GF who built purely Deflect/Defense/Recovery and he would stand in astral shield pop Knights Valor and our team literally couldn't die, if you guys could reliably do this GFs would be much more in demand especially with a lower need for CW.
4: Make your animation speeds slightly faster for guarding and a few other select abilities, and increase the base damage on your abilities especially those in the Swordmaster tree, this would reliably give you an option for DPS builds and make your mobility issues much less prevalent.
5: Last make GF marks last until the duration runs out, and not when you are struck, this would give tank GFs a niche in that you would be the only class with semi permanent marks which would substantially improve your PvE viability coupled with the other changes i listed.
Obviously this is just my take on things, but it seems like a lot of your suggestions are just not realistic or are just straight not addressing the real issues with the class.
It's no joke, and it's NOT self proclaimed, AND there's about 27 GF masters now. When there were only 7, It sounded bada** to be 1 of 7. But anyways, a GFM is someone who's MASTERED the GF class.
So what you are saying is that only a "GFM" can say if someone else is one, so basically this nonsense is just people proclaiming they are "GFM" and then saying "Hey this guy is also a GFM" which is just some made up title to make people feel good about themselves?
This is the most idiotic thing i've read on here in a while, i should go make a GWFM club i name a couple good GWF i know as also being "Masters" and then talk about the class like i know exactly how they need to balance it, this thread is just the worst....
You said it brah!!
So what's it gonna be PWE lol!?
This is Harrivenger a MI TR. I have grouped with you in one of the PUG 5v5 and I would like to say you are one of the best GF I have grouped with. You know your class well and you can hold against the opponents even when you are out-numbered by 1 to 3 (If I remember correctly, it is 2 x GWF and 1 x CW).
It is my honor and pleasure to have group with you in the 5v5 PvP.
Ebony (Whisperknife)
Really? 2 GWFs and 1 CW failed to obliterate a single GF? If a CW manages to cc a GF even for a second, 2 GWFs will break it so fast you'll miss it if you blink. Are you sure you were fighting people with equal abiltiy and GS? Judging how good or bad someone is solely on bad match ups aint exactly an accurate way to assess. I have accumulated some PuG experience as a GWF and as a GF. The verdict is simple - a GWF can win in an average to bad team. A GF absolutely needs a good team or he dies a horrible 1vs3/4/5 death. Ant knows this too, thats why he runs premade groups hoping to turn the match into a prone fest with all those GFs using knockdowns.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Lol this guy...
1. I'm often times found running with a lot of GF's because they're my friends. And we all like to PvP, so we just Q. Nothing more, nothing less.
2. And yes, I tanked 2 GWF's and killed the CW. Wanna know my secret? Villain's Menace + kiting around objects. The GWF's didn't get a chance to CC me because of Villain's Menace, and because I kept kiting them around the stone pillars on the Riverside. Not saying I didn't die, but I maintained long enough for back up but died when I lost my guard meter running for a pot.
Like I said bad match ups are not a reliable indicator. I can see what you describe happening if those players you were up against have low both GS and experience. If we are talking GF vs GWF 1 on 1 with equal gear then the the player with more knowledge of both classes wins.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
*Gives you a high five*
I had a hard time understanding your first 2 sentences, I think there might be some typos in there
I have BEATEN AWESOME GWF on my GF 1 on 1.
Yeah you can beat them but its harder... much harder for you than for them!
You need to be CONQUEROR.
You need lots of ARMPEN...3000-3500+ Perfect Terror/Greater Plague Fire
and Decent Crit and Power.
Around 30-35k HP/ the more the better and when the fight comes be at your TOP GAME... don't make mistakes and time well your Prones Combos and Know when to Raise Shield, When to Run a Little or Facetank and Which Dailyes/Abilities to use and make your slow hits and encounters count.
They can be Beaten through Prones... but you need to Hit harder, Break defense ASAP and
move when they Unstopable and Prone them when theyre not. This is kinda a Dance.
I hit them proned and make him eat all my combo...if I didn't kill him... then hell unstop... ill run a little
and block his proned hits and then I run a little more, eat some hits and block some more,run and facetank some tehn when hes out of prones its my turn to send him flying..etc
The One with Better Gear, make less mistakes and put more attention and gets its dailys faster gets to win .
Since there are many GF experts in this thread I thought I would take advantage of it.
The 4 piece bonus for Timeless Hero set is "Your encounter powers grant 450 critical strike for 6 seconds. This effect stacks up to 3 times"
Does that only apply to the GF encounter powers or if used can it apply to everyone in the group?
Pretty much this ^
And when you, as a GF, are the last man standing the feeling is quite good
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Hahaha, I love being the last man standing xD!
Only the GF will benefit from the armor's set bonus.
I am a new player. I joined the game between Mod 2 & 3, so I do not know how the game evolved since its start. But I can at least tell what seems to be wrong or lacking for this class.
My first character is a GF. I love playing tank but in Neverwinter, this role is a little different of what I am used to. I keep trying to improve my gameplay and my knowledge about its mechanics.
I began leveling choosing Iron Vanguard and mainly put points in Protector. It was a self-made build from scratch and I thought I was doing well, I reach level 60 without much trouble anyway.
When you are level max, usually it is when you find the real purpose of each ability you got, each point you spent to fit your needs. I was tanky but could not take down mobs on my own.
I realised that not only you need stuff (it is obvious) but you need a good build too. Mine was not bad but taking a lot of time to do daily quests is a pain.
I looked for a DPS build because with a tanky build I do not succeed to kill mobs and stay alive, so I should better kill them before they kill me. Thanks to Rokuthy's guide, I reached a point where I was tankier with good DPS. That is why I think GFs mostly have DPS builds. Damage is always convenient in any situation.
I learned the hard way what playing GF is. I am proud to do well enough to get my whole Timeless Hero. It made a big difference when I had it all. I did not know GF was so gear-dependent. I survive much better now with no point in Protector.
I read people complaining about threat. I do not remember having threat issues even with my old build. It was just a matter of damage at that time.
I am leveling a second GF (how stubborn of me), Swordmaster/Tactician. It really changes from what I am used to now and I enjoy it. I like the skills but it lacks a AoE-encounter (Frontline Surge in Iron Vanguard is awesome). Even going Swordmaster, you should still be able to fulfill the purpose of the class and have some powers allowing you to do so.
With Iron Vanguard, to keep aggro, I use Enforced Threat and Frontline Surge and while they are prone, I use Threatening Rush and Cleave. Mobs are marked, I lose little to no time rushing them and make damages to increase my aggro. I still have the 3rd encounter slot available for anything, I choose between Lunging Strike, Into the Fray or Bull Charge, it mainly depends on the battle.
With Swordmaster, I have some issues, Enforced Threat is not always up and when adds spawn, even if I Cleave them 2-3 times, another player can take aggro easily because they are not marked, Enhanced Mark is useless in this case... I make use of Tab but if you mark each target when Enforced Threat is on cooldown, you do not build threat on current marked targets and do not make damage, gain action point, ... I hope to find a gameplay suitable enough to do fine. It is maybe not possible to achieve this with the current powers.
I really like the idea of making damage/building threat with Into the Fray. I went Swordmaster because I find the power good and when you put points to improve it, you bring a buff to the party. Why not adding another effect when you reach 5/5.
Also, I do not find Flourish that good. It is a single target power with a long animation. With a lot of enemies around you, there is a great chance you are interupted.
I like the trick with building threat with Knight's Valor, it may be worth with Swordmaster. I am 56, some more points and I will try it.
Weapon Master's Strike is a good at-will. Damages are tiny but the debuff is fine (I do not know by how much it increases the damage though). But what surprises me is when I use Cleave after, I do not reach all the debuffed targets... WMS has a better reach and Cleave should have the same. Sometimes, I ended up using WMS as main at-will until there is 1 line of enemies remaining. I made sure to lose this "bad" habit and use it once every 5-6 seconds.
There is something wrong with GF's damage. It is really too low. As a tank, I knew from the start that I will not be on top without effort compared to other classes.
Yesterday, I searched the forum to understand what led to this low DPS. Because... I fought a zombie cleric for ~10min. I was so mad not being able to kill this mob before his heal, and he found a way to cast it again after I interupted it with Bull Charge... I was lucky, there were only 2 other mobs in the room.
I do not care being last in the charts but not being able to kill a single mob, there is a huge difference. Creating a group for this, it would be such a pity.
Improvements can be done.
I prefer adding a bonus to guard like protecting people behind it or receiving a buff. Your guard meter decreases so fast when you have a whole pack, quick or hard hitters that it is safer to avoid damages. Sometimes, you guard when you are in lazy mode and know you do not risk much.
I like the idea of increasing weapon damage to increase overall damage. Every build will benefit from it. It will allow a wider choice of gameplay. You can slot powers to bring something useful instead of the ones which deal the highest damages. Curiously, the best ones tend to deal high damages.
Also, animations are too long. In my opinion, tanking should be about reactivity too.
Long animations = no guard, no movement. All I seem to do is avoiding red areas and GF is so slow...
Bringing buffs and debuffs is awesome. But if the GF is kiting, how is it possible to buff the whole party or debuffing the boss ?
For example, in Frozen Heart, the GF usually kites the horde of adds. The kiting is easy but when you stop running, adds launch their attacks and you need to avoid someone getting caught in those red areas.
Bufffing your party with Into the Fray is hard, uptime should be low.
Same with WMS, Tide of Iron, melee range...
Buff/debuff is broken in situation where it is useful. Luckily, all fights are not like those in FH.
I may have other things to tell but it is actually what I find important.
I let those who are more experienced dealing with numbers and tweaks.
I do not PvP much, but improving PvE should improve PvP a little.
This is just my experience from playing the game these past months, nothing more.
I wanted to share it since I find the game fun and some changes can allow GFs to be more reliable and maybe attract some new players like myself.
---
TL;DR : Give us some more weapon damage, every build will benefit from it.
Nice nice. Also, your writing format is quite different. Where do you live/go to school?
I am from France.
- unbreakable block for one is absurd.
- Some of the feat change suggestions are good like deflection going up to 10%
- Guarded assault should only be buffed to 10% max, including buffs. 30% is insane Do you know how this feat works? You would kill everyone with just your shield.
- The reason why our griffon wrath etc are hard to land is because our encounters are all melee range, if you look at GWF their encounters/at-wills have a "range" like 13 feet to land takedown (the pommel strike). a solution here would be to increase the range of encounters slightly to make them more viable.
- Mark still isn't good enough. This "special" mark should have double the effects of a normal one, so when your party members see this "nice shiny GF mark" they really want to hit it.
- Tenancy was MUCH needed, i sometimes go into PvP queue and come across the odd low-zero tenacy player, and i pretty much one shot them with a rotation. Those days should not come back, just because its fun for us, does not mean it is for them. Oh and its not the reason GWFs are tanky, they do that in PvE too its because their unstoppable grants them 50% damge resistance when max determination (which is when most GWFs pop it)
- Best leave the other class nerf suggestions to one of the seven masters of those class.
Oh about the 7 GF masters... I'm pretty sure theres alot who are knowledgable about this class, not saying GF is a **** class. But there is just not much to it.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
OOHHHH!! Fosho man, nice to meet you! I like meeting people from different countries and cultural backgrounds!