I wish they would revert back to the old Frontline, when it used to give more AP based on the amount of targets hit.
They called that a "bug," so it isn't gonna happen.
Here's another suggestion: Why don't they just change the damage to match what the tooltip says? Like if anvil of doom actually did 7k damage instread of 4-5k.
I respect everthing you say, but one thing:
This game does not need tanks. So as long as the dungeons designs stay the same, why would anyone take a "tank" over a DPSer?
Control wiz + our cousin the gwf = Best pve party there is (in 4/5 cases). What I'm trying to say here is, all dungeons are designed around DAMAGE. So unless guardians do actual DAMAGE, they will never be wanted in a party.
^this.
You can have an almost immortal GF that has 100.000 HP, can hold guard/shield indefinitely, gives a permanent 200% defense buff to party and people will still NOT want it in a dungeon, especially at higher epic tiers. Because dungeon design. You don't need a tank, you need moar dmg, since with enough CC (2-3 CWs) you won't die anyway.
Agreed. And look at who is wanted most with the CW's. DC (group buffs/debuffs and heals) and GWF (tanky with massive damage). So we either need to be super useful in group (more than the KC set we already have that was apparently too OP...????), or do massive damage.
Hahahaha, no dude. GF Masters are players who have mastered the class. They know everything there is to know about the GF, how things work, why things work, and what compliments other components lol!! As of right now, there's only 7 because no one else knows anyone else who too has mastered the GF class.
Hahahaha, no dude. GF Masters are players who have mastered the class. They know everything there is to know about the GF, how things work, why things work, and what compliments other components lol!! As of right now, there's only 7 because no one else knows anyone else who too has mastered the GF class.
You guys are so crazy xD!
But you ask about, and are frequently openly confused by basic game mechanics, many of which apply to the class of which you claim to be a "master".
And I've seen your videos..... No bueno. =\
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited April 2014
Updated the suggestions section.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
Uhh... Okay. Now please explain what you just said in English lol...
No bueno means your videos are not bueno. :P
I kinda liked your GF PvP montage but maybe it's just because we have similar taste in music.
Anyways, I also wanna point out some other reasons why I think GFs are underrated, and I'd love for lvl99shooter to weigh in. A lot of this is based on psychology, so it might come off as insulting to the highest level players. I apologize in advance, but I'm calling it like I see it:
Inflated gear score. GFs generally have a much higher gear score than they should due to Reckless Attacker and Armor Specialization. Reckless Attacker is being fixed in the next patch so that it doesn't increase GS anymore. Seeing yourself outclassed by people with 16k gear scores when you have a 16k gear score is very bad for self-esteem when your REAL GS is actually around 12-13k.
Diminishing returns. It's much too easy to over stack defense. The very phrases power and defense make them seem like equal opposites. If you're a damage class and you've got lots of power, I would assume that as a tank class I should have lots of defense. That's the standard dichotomy. Not everyone does research. So an inexperienced player (which is all of us when we first start out) who isn't explicitly told about diminishing returns will often continue to stack defense because the phrase itself implies that it is the most reliable defensive stat. Yes, I've seen GFs with 4-5k defense. 3600 should be the cut-off. Power doesn't have diminishing returns. Newer players will not look at regeneration and deflect because these stats are newer and unfamiliar and don't seem as trustworthy as good old fashion defense. Even when presented with evidence to the contrary, people are still skeptical. They might point to other games where diminishing returns are deceptively harmful but in fact scale in such a way so that it's still worth investing in those stats for a good while. Even if that was the case, chances are the points would still be worth more somewhere else. Armor penetration is hard to get and critical strike has a very high soft cap. Power doesn't have any cap at all, though it's not actually very useful.
Broken Expectations. The simple truth is people who play tanks usually expect to be the most important person in the room. In most other games the tank is the hero. Players on these forums have explicitly stated that they want to feel like the party will die without their assistance (even though that isn't even true of the cleric anymore). The Guardian Fighter IS subpar, don't get me wrong. However, expectation of being the most important player and ending up below average does lead people to call the class completely broken and worthless even when mathematically this may not be the case.
Lack of knowledge. Believe it or not, the average pug player doesn't even know what Knight Captain's armor actually is, and will stare in wonder at why they seem to be doing so much more damage. If you cast Into the Fray, other pug players will actually freak out and wonder where their speed boost came from. This is because there are so few GFs around that their capabilities are often unknown. A GF might be asked to kite all the mobs in Dracolich solo or be asked to hang back and relax in Kurrandax. If all people care about is damage, then they won't notice the other ways in which a GF might contribute.
Self-fulfilling prophecy and confirmation bias. I think these are pretty self-explanatory. Everyone has it in their head that GFs are the worst class, without even necessarily understanding why. And because there is a lack of knowledge of the GF's role, the inability to perform a certain task can be attributed to the fault of the class itself even if that task wouldn't necessarily be reasonable anyways. You can read a bunch of studies about how kids who are told they are less intelligent (or even teachers who are told their students are less intelligent) will perform poorly compared to other students. That's a big part of what's happening. Yes, GFs are underperforming. However, the lack of support and understanding exaggerate the issue greatly. Stories of bad GFs abound. GFs doing half the DPS of the lead DPSer are deemed worthless, even if they absorbed the most damage and their abilities boosted the rest of the party's DPS significantly. GFs aren't given credit for what they do well and are berated for what they do poorly.
If you work any job and think you won't do well no matter what, you will be discouraged much more easily. Contrary to popular belief, you won't simply try harder unless you're special, the exception to the rule. You can say it just makes you try harder, but tell that to the thousands of people playing this game and most of them will look at you like you're crazy, especially since it's just a game. Why even bother playing if you need to put in work? Games are what you do when you're not working, right? Basic psychology 101.
To put this in perspective, if you take 5 people with high DPS and you cut one of their DPS rates in half, you're only decreasing the team DPS by 10% (in a half hour dungeon that's 3 extra minutes). Let's say that last person is am average GF with the nerfed KC armor, using a Plaguefire (everyone else is using vorpals), and casting Into the Fray. They may in fact be contributing a great deal to the success of the mission, and their contribution may in fact be worth as much as that 10% they are costing the party. But because everyone thinks GFs suck and their DPS is so very obviously lower than everyone else's, their merits are hidden and easier to ignore, while their shortcomings are obvious.
The GF walks away feeling ashamed, with no one to disagree. Several weeks later he or she is proudly rolling a CW or playing a different game. Confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy at its finest.
EDIT: Let me add one more...
Resentment of the standard model. Most mmos absolutely require tanks and clerics. The tank sits high and mighty and it's the DPSers who are often second class citizens. What we're seeing in Neverwinter is a big case of role reversal. DPS is king, and so many people who prefer to play DPS classes are unleashing some of their past resentment on GFs who don't necessarily deserve the backlash. People are gratified to find out that they are not worthless, that they are king and tanks are now the second class citizens. And they're jumping at the chance to prove that GFs are obsolete and can be squeezed out.
The reason why I wanted to add a psychological analysis to what's happening is in part to explain why the developers might be taking their sweet time in fixing the problem. It's quite possible they might not actually see that there is a huge problem. They might have their pre-made level 60 characters ready to go, one of each class (including a GF) and are running dozens of simulations on their own computers which seem to demonstrate that mathematically, the GF is actually not that bad. They might have dozens if not hundreds of spreadsheets and several graphs all showing that the GF is a-ok and that people are just whining because hey, all classes whine and complain, right? Oh sure, the GF is a little underpowered, but meh. We'll get to it later. Module 3! We have a deadline to meet if we wanna get our paychecks and feed our families!
***
Again, I completely 100% agree that GFs need work. But I''m getting tired of people badmouthing my very first lv 60 character without a fair trial. And I think a big picture perspective, along with some insight into what the developers might be thinking can only help.
Feel free to disagree with me as long as you don't call me a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Wildfire, I think you have good points all around. I don't think any of the psychological factors, really justify having the class in it's current state though. It IS fundamentally weaker than GWF and CW. The only thing keeping it "useful" was Knight Captains which was an OP set bonus that was propping up a fundamentally weak class.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
Are you the sensei or master of the self-proclaimed "7 Guardian Master Fighters"? lol.
I agree 100% with everything you have wrote. I'm a big fan of GFs, I like to invite them to any run, with a couple of advices they can be very useful and we do it as fast as if we were doing it with another dps class instead of them.
Are you the sensei or master of the self-proclaimed "7 Guardian Master Fighters"? lol.
I agree 100% with everything you have wrote. I'm a big fan of GFs, I like to invite them to any run, with a couple of advices they can be very useful and we do it as fast as if we were doing it with another dps class instead of them.
The only time I'll be doing high DPS is when I have two control wizards that de-duff. But at that point, it won't even matter because the wizards' damage is so high that mine doesn't even matter. How do you do speed runs with gfs?
(I think I've met your Bloodthristy cleric, btw :P)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
The only time I'll be doing high DPS is when I have two control wizards that de-duff. But at that point, it won't even matter because the wizards' damage is so high that mine doesn't even matter. How do you do speed runs with gfs?
(I think I've met your Bloodthristy cleric, btw :P)
Well I kindly ask them to use Knight Captain set, my GWF gets close to 17k power and the other guys also get a nice boost, I'm usually pulling a lot of mobs i.e doing DK we pull everything and kill in the door, thanks the Into the Fray the party is very close to the door already when we start to cast singularity one after another, etc you surely know how it works. We usually have enough DPS that it is not necessary to bring another one so we keep an eye in the GF as an utility or support character. I know it doesn't feel well to play with that t1 set but DC have to do it too using the High Prophet. During boss fights in DK or another dungeon, GF use the mark to kite elite mobs with "unstoppable" (those that cant be cc'd) very close to the boss, also keep the mark on them for a bit more of damage (debuff). There are many, many ways, maybe even more than the few I just mentioned.
Regarding to my DC, must have been some time ago, I stopped playing it, gwf is a bit more fun now :P
lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited April 2014
After playing with the Devs today, I mentioned if anything is being planned for the GF during the Q & A session. They said yes, but when they do look at the GF. They wanna spend a lot of time with it. I hope they pull a few of my suggestions off this thread when they do.
1). Refrain from telling the Devs what the class they designed was designed for. I'm pretty sure they know what it was designed for since they designed it. If they take the GF in the direction you are suggesting things are going to be ALOT worse. The combat in this game is action combat, tanks are not very useful
2). I don't want to tank in PvP please stop asking the Devs to go this way with the GF. If you cannot apply MEANINGFUL DPS in PvP you are useless. The only exception to this is, of course, the DC. We learned this lesson with the old school senti GWFs. They seemed to work well at first but they could not kill anything or apply pressure in a match so you didn't need to waste any of your teams resources dealing with them making them a wasted slot in a match. They were given some DPS and all of a sudden they were a HUGE problem for everyone.
Our tankyness is fine now (in PvP). We just need a viable DPS option. Our DPS was FINE before tenacity it just needs to be tweaked again and brought back inline with what it used to be. I don't think anyone ever had a problem with GF DPS being too much before so let's just get it back to there for starts.
Oh and do this w/o buffing GWFs too.....
Lets not flood the Devs with a bunch of theory crafting and "cool" ideas from wayyyyy outa left field.
Our problem is lack of meaningful DPS and that the prone duration debuff hurt us more than any other class and needs to be fixed like they did with CWs.
Well I kindly ask them to use Knight Captain set, my GWF gets close to 17k power and the other guys also get a nice boost, I'm usually pulling a lot of mobs i.e doing DK we pull everything and kill in the door, thanks the Into the Fray the party is very close to the door already when we start to cast singularity one after another, etc you surely know how it works. We usually have enough DPS that it is not necessary to bring another one so we keep an eye in the GF as an utility or support character. I know it doesn't feel well to play with that t1 set but DC have to do it too using the High Prophet. During boss fights in DK or another dungeon, GF use the mark to kite elite mobs with "unstoppable" (those that cant be cc'd) very close to the boss, also keep the mark on them for a bit more of damage (debuff). There are many, many ways, maybe even more than the few I just mentioned.
Regarding to my DC, must have been some time ago, I stopped playing it, gwf is a bit more fun now :P
Well the devs are pulling a Stalwart Bulwart with the Knight Captain set. Only 15% power increase after mod 3 now.
At least it would just be fine for a Guardian Fighter if they were able to make better use of their block ability; simply enhancing the strengh of the Guard Meter and giving a protection against damage spikes and fast attacks would make a difference -- while keeping the tactical aspect where one has to think twice what and when to block something.
Overall the devs should make clear if the GF is solely meant to take much damage or to deal a decent amount of damage herself; but if they are meant to just take much damage then there should be a need for such a class at all. But clear is that a GF is not exceptionally tankier than a Great Weapon Fighter (if at all) and that is really funny as the "tank" uses the heaviest type of armour and the GWF just a middle type of armour like the Cleric.
Out of all the propositions here I am not very fond with the rollback to the old Bull Charge as the new range is fantastic, although the prone time (and flying time) is now all in all a bit shorter -- not least because of Tenacity.
At least it would just be fine for a Guardian Fighter if they were able to make better use of their block ability; simply enhancing the strengh of the Guard Meter and giving a protection against damage spikes and fast attacks would make a difference -- while keeping the tactical aspect where one has to think twice what and when to block something.
Really, GF need more more more more Guard Meter
Teahupoo - New Guardian Fighter....Loading 50%
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited April 2014
At the moment, GWF's are able to have 45% damage resistance, and 35% deflect chance, 35k% HP easily... While having access to DPS, therefore life steal works wonders for them. You would think they would at least make us VERY difficult to kill compared to a GWF. Also, the class passive Guarded Assult has SOO much potential, but it needs a major buff! Can you imagine SoS and Reflecting an additional 25% of incoming damage with Guarded Assault?
I agree, it is strange that the class with the heaviest type of armour has sometimes the biggest problems to survive. Really, 35% deflection? If a GF would try to get that he would sacrifice a lot and still not reach it; and he would not have other means to compensate it. Blocking? Well, it is true - for a few seconds - then he would have nothing left to compensate.
A nicely structured and well thought out post. A couple of comments to build off your ideas as well as some of my own:
-GWF and GF are two different versions of the same class (Fighters). GWFs can more effectively adopt the Zerg-AoE PvE metagame that has become endgame dungeons and thus are more effective for groups who choose to play this way. I do not think this warrants changing either class. They both do things differently, each have their pros and cons over the other, just because the current PvE metagame is more adoptable by one class does not mean there is ANYTHING wrong with the other.
-Unlimited guard is an absurd suggestion.
-I think that GFs should have easier access to more diverse defensive stats. Seems like GFs are pretty much forced into over-hardcapping Defense.
-I think the Power rework will really benefit the GFs more than any other class. Let's see how this works out before making major changes to GF damage.
-MOST IMPORTANT : The number one reason why GFs currently feel underpowered in PvE is because of content design and the resulting 'Zerg-AoE metagame' that has evolved from it. If Tier 3 is designed to require class diversity , GF will find that there is actually very little wrong with their class, but rather just that Epic content is designed poorly in regards to what a GF can offer to a group. The best thing the devs can do to help the GF class is design content that requires initial damage absorption (aka tanking) to be done exclusively by fighters, and further, design content where threat-management is a necessary element for success.
-Finally, I really think the devs should look into Guardian Fighters having a Singularity-type daily. Not to stray from the topic here, but the real reason why some classes feel underpowered is because the CW has been severely overpowered since beta. The two reasons for this is 1. CWs can tank and 2. Singularity. If we woke up tomorrow and CWs no longer had Singularity but instead GFs had this 'gather everything into one small point' type of daily, I doubt anyone would deny that groups would IMMEDIATELY become much more diverse. In all honesty, its much more of a tank type of ability anyway. Just sayin...
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited April 2014
The GF's bad reaction time to guard after standing up is very annoying...
All movement are just clunky and slow, from picking up your shield to swinging your weapon to walking 3 steps.
For a "action" fast pace type game, GF are so **** slow, every animation is easily interrupted mid action.
Speaking of interruptions... It's official... GWF's can cancels other classes attacks. It's as if their moves can override anyone elses. I recorded a GWF knocking me down before the animation was even DONE!... I'm gonna post a lot of BS in the bloopers in my up coming PvP Montage.
Personally I think they need to do away with the 3rd swing animations and just loop the first swing animation while giving every 3rd swing the effect. We are stabbers we have control. The "slow satisfying" 3rd swing isn't very fun.
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dissssppppMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
Inflated gear score. GFs generally have a much higher gear score than they should due to Reckless Attacker and Armor Specialization. Reckless Attacker is being fixed in the next patch so that it doesn't increase GS anymore. Seeing yourself outclassed by people with 16k gear scores when you have a 16k gear score is very bad for self-esteem when your REAL GS is actually around 12-13k.
You made a good post overall, but I hope after re-reading it you realize how ridiculous what you said right here is. You think changing the displayed gear score actually removes those thousands of points of power? Whether my GS displays 19k or 15.5k, I still have over 7,000 points of power. Stones not showing up in your gear score doesn't change the fact that you are still receiving an additional 2500+ points from the stone.
Yeah, 7000 power from conq padding....and a weapon with a base damage in the 600 range.
Compared to people with 7000 power just from stacking radiants, armour/weapon sets and jewelry, and weapons with base damage in the 800-1000 range.
Conq power boosts should help GFs get marginally closer to the deeps output of some of the others, but you're always going to come up against the lower base damage of GF weapons, so 7k power for a GF is barely competitive with 3k power for a CW.
Everyone knows that you subtract about 25% from the GS of any conq GF, because powerpadding doesn't actually increase output that significantly. Fixing the GS display would just save you the bother of doing this.
Hey guys, I am a GF too in this game since Beta, and I mostly agree with those players who says that GF needs more DPS. Since tenacity was introduced, our DPS fell down in PVP matches, and since there are going to be mixed PVP/PVE areas in MOD 3, I am sure that all GFs are basically debuffed due to tenacity. As some players suggested, DPS is the most important feature that needs to be improved.
Others claim that our defensive stats are low compared to GWFs. That is true, Sentinels are tougher than GFs, in general. But, GFs are still "tankier" than other classes.
Some of you want more guard meter. I think Devs have provided you the right tools to increase it yourself now. Since all T1 sets will be useless in MOD 3, and T2 will be good only for PVE content, go to farm glory points and get yourself the Profound set. It is a viable set for PVE content and it is much much better than ALL the other sets. With the full set you get 30% more guard meter. Then, make yourself more intuitive. in PVP use TIDE OF IRON, it restores 10% of your guard meter IMMEDIATELY at every hit you give. With the right timing (Block>TIDE>BLOCK>TIDE) not even GWFs can take my guard meter completely down in less than 1 minute of fighting. And, in PVP,1 minute is really long!
Hey guys, I am a GF too in this game since Beta, and I mostly agree with those players who says that GF needs more DPS. Since tenacity was introduced, our DPS fell down in PVP matches, and since there are going to be mixed PVP/PVE areas in MOD 3, I am sure that all GFs are basically debuffed due to tenacity. As some players suggested, DPS is the most important feature that needs to be improved.
Others claim that our defensive stats are low compared to GWFs. That is true, Sentinels are tougher than GFs, in general. But, GFs are still "tankier" than other classes.
Some of you want more guard meter. I think Devs have provided you the right tools to increase it yourself now. Since all T1 sets will be useless in MOD 3, and T2 will be good only for PVE content, go to farm glory points and get yourself the Profound set. It is a viable set for PVE content and it is much much better than ALL the other sets. With the full set you get 30% more guard meter. Then, make yourself more intuitive. in PVP use TIDE OF IRON, it restores 10% of your guard meter IMMEDIATELY at every hit you give. With the right timing (Block>TIDE>BLOCK>TIDE) not even GWFs can take my guard meter completely down in less than 1 minute of fighting. And, in PVP,1 minute is really long!
..sure dev pprovided the tolls and tide iron save you... 1 GF is figther focused in def (the other class of neverwinter have more def skill and betters def stat,feat tham GF), you an get 9k on def and no help to nothing becuase 9k on GF on another class is 52 % dmg redc. hit 10k on you pass to 4.8 k very nice! but you have 30 k hp almost...but in t2 dungeon in 1 seg can the addis hit more tham 10 k....used your shield whit 30% bosster+15% SM+tide of iron+ET+IW and you survive 2 seg more..
now see the same example in GFW warrior path focus in atk the need at last 3.5 k in def that is 35 % def and dont need down your atck or crit, no need guard because he have unstoppable imune cc, incremen atck speed and run speed, have Temporary hit point,(see the small dif. whit tab ability of Gf) + the GWf have a good dps+ life steal you no need survive beacuase you kill all addis(not metions feat, vorpal, echament, etc)
sooo thx to dev you are doing great work whit GF a prefect class balance
Speaking of interruptions... It's official... GWF's can cancels other classes attacks. It's as if their moves can override anyone elses. I recorded a GWF knocking me down before the animation was even DONE!... I'm gonna post a lot of BS in the bloopers in my up coming PvP Montage.
GFs do this to my GWF all the time, and I to them....all the time. This happens to me with just about every class that has an interupt or prone. It's because the enemy was faster to the draw than you were...
I'm all for supporting GFs getting a boost, but it gets harder and harder to care when "suggestions" turn into whining that sounds like an ugly older sister who is jealous of her pretty younger sister.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Comments
They called that a "bug," so it isn't gonna happen.
Here's another suggestion: Why don't they just change the damage to match what the tooltip says? Like if anvil of doom actually did 7k damage instread of 4-5k.
^this.
You can have an almost immortal GF that has 100.000 HP, can hold guard/shield indefinitely, gives a permanent 200% defense buff to party and people will still NOT want it in a dungeon, especially at higher epic tiers. Because dungeon design. You don't need a tank, you need moar dmg, since with enough CC (2-3 CWs) you won't die anyway.
What is this? E-peen contest?
But you ask about, and are frequently openly confused by basic game mechanics, many of which apply to the class of which you claim to be a "master".
And I've seen your videos..... No bueno. =\
Uhh... Okay. Now please explain what you just said in English lol...
No bueno means your videos are not bueno. :P
I kinda liked your GF PvP montage but maybe it's just because we have similar taste in music.
Anyways, I also wanna point out some other reasons why I think GFs are underrated, and I'd love for lvl99shooter to weigh in. A lot of this is based on psychology, so it might come off as insulting to the highest level players. I apologize in advance, but I'm calling it like I see it:
Inflated gear score. GFs generally have a much higher gear score than they should due to Reckless Attacker and Armor Specialization. Reckless Attacker is being fixed in the next patch so that it doesn't increase GS anymore. Seeing yourself outclassed by people with 16k gear scores when you have a 16k gear score is very bad for self-esteem when your REAL GS is actually around 12-13k.
Diminishing returns. It's much too easy to over stack defense. The very phrases power and defense make them seem like equal opposites. If you're a damage class and you've got lots of power, I would assume that as a tank class I should have lots of defense. That's the standard dichotomy. Not everyone does research. So an inexperienced player (which is all of us when we first start out) who isn't explicitly told about diminishing returns will often continue to stack defense because the phrase itself implies that it is the most reliable defensive stat. Yes, I've seen GFs with 4-5k defense. 3600 should be the cut-off. Power doesn't have diminishing returns. Newer players will not look at regeneration and deflect because these stats are newer and unfamiliar and don't seem as trustworthy as good old fashion defense. Even when presented with evidence to the contrary, people are still skeptical. They might point to other games where diminishing returns are deceptively harmful but in fact scale in such a way so that it's still worth investing in those stats for a good while. Even if that was the case, chances are the points would still be worth more somewhere else. Armor penetration is hard to get and critical strike has a very high soft cap. Power doesn't have any cap at all, though it's not actually very useful.
Broken Expectations. The simple truth is people who play tanks usually expect to be the most important person in the room. In most other games the tank is the hero. Players on these forums have explicitly stated that they want to feel like the party will die without their assistance (even though that isn't even true of the cleric anymore). The Guardian Fighter IS subpar, don't get me wrong. However, expectation of being the most important player and ending up below average does lead people to call the class completely broken and worthless even when mathematically this may not be the case.
Lack of knowledge. Believe it or not, the average pug player doesn't even know what Knight Captain's armor actually is, and will stare in wonder at why they seem to be doing so much more damage. If you cast Into the Fray, other pug players will actually freak out and wonder where their speed boost came from. This is because there are so few GFs around that their capabilities are often unknown. A GF might be asked to kite all the mobs in Dracolich solo or be asked to hang back and relax in Kurrandax. If all people care about is damage, then they won't notice the other ways in which a GF might contribute.
Self-fulfilling prophecy and confirmation bias. I think these are pretty self-explanatory. Everyone has it in their head that GFs are the worst class, without even necessarily understanding why. And because there is a lack of knowledge of the GF's role, the inability to perform a certain task can be attributed to the fault of the class itself even if that task wouldn't necessarily be reasonable anyways. You can read a bunch of studies about how kids who are told they are less intelligent (or even teachers who are told their students are less intelligent) will perform poorly compared to other students. That's a big part of what's happening. Yes, GFs are underperforming. However, the lack of support and understanding exaggerate the issue greatly. Stories of bad GFs abound. GFs doing half the DPS of the lead DPSer are deemed worthless, even if they absorbed the most damage and their abilities boosted the rest of the party's DPS significantly. GFs aren't given credit for what they do well and are berated for what they do poorly.
If you work any job and think you won't do well no matter what, you will be discouraged much more easily. Contrary to popular belief, you won't simply try harder unless you're special, the exception to the rule. You can say it just makes you try harder, but tell that to the thousands of people playing this game and most of them will look at you like you're crazy, especially since it's just a game. Why even bother playing if you need to put in work? Games are what you do when you're not working, right? Basic psychology 101.
To put this in perspective, if you take 5 people with high DPS and you cut one of their DPS rates in half, you're only decreasing the team DPS by 10% (in a half hour dungeon that's 3 extra minutes). Let's say that last person is am average GF with the nerfed KC armor, using a Plaguefire (everyone else is using vorpals), and casting Into the Fray. They may in fact be contributing a great deal to the success of the mission, and their contribution may in fact be worth as much as that 10% they are costing the party. But because everyone thinks GFs suck and their DPS is so very obviously lower than everyone else's, their merits are hidden and easier to ignore, while their shortcomings are obvious.
The GF walks away feeling ashamed, with no one to disagree. Several weeks later he or she is proudly rolling a CW or playing a different game. Confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy at its finest.
EDIT: Let me add one more...
Resentment of the standard model. Most mmos absolutely require tanks and clerics. The tank sits high and mighty and it's the DPSers who are often second class citizens. What we're seeing in Neverwinter is a big case of role reversal. DPS is king, and so many people who prefer to play DPS classes are unleashing some of their past resentment on GFs who don't necessarily deserve the backlash. People are gratified to find out that they are not worthless, that they are king and tanks are now the second class citizens. And they're jumping at the chance to prove that GFs are obsolete and can be squeezed out.
The reason why I wanted to add a psychological analysis to what's happening is in part to explain why the developers might be taking their sweet time in fixing the problem. It's quite possible they might not actually see that there is a huge problem. They might have their pre-made level 60 characters ready to go, one of each class (including a GF) and are running dozens of simulations on their own computers which seem to demonstrate that mathematically, the GF is actually not that bad. They might have dozens if not hundreds of spreadsheets and several graphs all showing that the GF is a-ok and that people are just whining because hey, all classes whine and complain, right? Oh sure, the GF is a little underpowered, but meh. We'll get to it later. Module 3! We have a deadline to meet if we wanna get our paychecks and feed our families!
***
Again, I completely 100% agree that GFs need work. But I''m getting tired of people badmouthing my very first lv 60 character without a fair trial. And I think a big picture perspective, along with some insight into what the developers might be thinking can only help.
Feel free to disagree with me as long as you don't call me a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Are you the sensei or master of the self-proclaimed "7 Guardian Master Fighters"? lol.
I agree 100% with everything you have wrote. I'm a big fan of GFs, I like to invite them to any run, with a couple of advices they can be very useful and we do it as fast as if we were doing it with another dps class instead of them.
The only time I'll be doing high DPS is when I have two control wizards that de-duff. But at that point, it won't even matter because the wizards' damage is so high that mine doesn't even matter. How do you do speed runs with gfs?
(I think I've met your Bloodthristy cleric, btw :P)
Well I kindly ask them to use Knight Captain set, my GWF gets close to 17k power and the other guys also get a nice boost, I'm usually pulling a lot of mobs i.e doing DK we pull everything and kill in the door, thanks the Into the Fray the party is very close to the door already when we start to cast singularity one after another, etc you surely know how it works. We usually have enough DPS that it is not necessary to bring another one so we keep an eye in the GF as an utility or support character. I know it doesn't feel well to play with that t1 set but DC have to do it too using the High Prophet. During boss fights in DK or another dungeon, GF use the mark to kite elite mobs with "unstoppable" (those that cant be cc'd) very close to the boss, also keep the mark on them for a bit more of damage (debuff). There are many, many ways, maybe even more than the few I just mentioned.
Regarding to my DC, must have been some time ago, I stopped playing it, gwf is a bit more fun now :P
2). I don't want to tank in PvP please stop asking the Devs to go this way with the GF. If you cannot apply MEANINGFUL DPS in PvP you are useless. The only exception to this is, of course, the DC. We learned this lesson with the old school senti GWFs. They seemed to work well at first but they could not kill anything or apply pressure in a match so you didn't need to waste any of your teams resources dealing with them making them a wasted slot in a match. They were given some DPS and all of a sudden they were a HUGE problem for everyone.
Our tankyness is fine now (in PvP). We just need a viable DPS option. Our DPS was FINE before tenacity it just needs to be tweaked again and brought back inline with what it used to be. I don't think anyone ever had a problem with GF DPS being too much before so let's just get it back to there for starts.
Oh and do this w/o buffing GWFs too.....
Lets not flood the Devs with a bunch of theory crafting and "cool" ideas from wayyyyy outa left field.
Our problem is lack of meaningful DPS and that the prone duration debuff hurt us more than any other class and needs to be fixed like they did with CWs.
Well the devs are pulling a Stalwart Bulwart with the Knight Captain set. Only 15% power increase after mod 3 now.
Overall the devs should make clear if the GF is solely meant to take much damage or to deal a decent amount of damage herself; but if they are meant to just take much damage then there should be a need for such a class at all. But clear is that a GF is not exceptionally tankier than a Great Weapon Fighter (if at all) and that is really funny as the "tank" uses the heaviest type of armour and the GWF just a middle type of armour like the Cleric.
Out of all the propositions here I am not very fond with the rollback to the old Bull Charge as the new range is fantastic, although the prone time (and flying time) is now all in all a bit shorter -- not least because of Tenacity.
Really, GF need more more more more Guard Meter
-GWF and GF are two different versions of the same class (Fighters). GWFs can more effectively adopt the Zerg-AoE PvE metagame that has become endgame dungeons and thus are more effective for groups who choose to play this way. I do not think this warrants changing either class. They both do things differently, each have their pros and cons over the other, just because the current PvE metagame is more adoptable by one class does not mean there is ANYTHING wrong with the other.
-Unlimited guard is an absurd suggestion.
-I think that GFs should have easier access to more diverse defensive stats. Seems like GFs are pretty much forced into over-hardcapping Defense.
-I think the Power rework will really benefit the GFs more than any other class. Let's see how this works out before making major changes to GF damage.
-MOST IMPORTANT : The number one reason why GFs currently feel underpowered in PvE is because of content design and the resulting 'Zerg-AoE metagame' that has evolved from it. If Tier 3 is designed to require class diversity , GF will find that there is actually very little wrong with their class, but rather just that Epic content is designed poorly in regards to what a GF can offer to a group. The best thing the devs can do to help the GF class is design content that requires initial damage absorption (aka tanking) to be done exclusively by fighters, and further, design content where threat-management is a necessary element for success.
-Finally, I really think the devs should look into Guardian Fighters having a Singularity-type daily. Not to stray from the topic here, but the real reason why some classes feel underpowered is because the CW has been severely overpowered since beta. The two reasons for this is 1. CWs can tank and 2. Singularity. If we woke up tomorrow and CWs no longer had Singularity but instead GFs had this 'gather everything into one small point' type of daily, I doubt anyone would deny that groups would IMMEDIATELY become much more diverse. In all honesty, its much more of a tank type of ability anyway. Just sayin...
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Very much so.
All movement are just clunky and slow, from picking up your shield to swinging your weapon to walking 3 steps.
For a "action" fast pace type game, GF are so **** slow, every animation is easily interrupted mid action.
Speaking of interruptions... It's official... GWF's can cancels other classes attacks. It's as if their moves can override anyone elses. I recorded a GWF knocking me down before the animation was even DONE!... I'm gonna post a lot of BS in the bloopers in my up coming PvP Montage.
You made a good post overall, but I hope after re-reading it you realize how ridiculous what you said right here is. You think changing the displayed gear score actually removes those thousands of points of power? Whether my GS displays 19k or 15.5k, I still have over 7,000 points of power. Stones not showing up in your gear score doesn't change the fact that you are still receiving an additional 2500+ points from the stone.
Compared to people with 7000 power just from stacking radiants, armour/weapon sets and jewelry, and weapons with base damage in the 800-1000 range.
Conq power boosts should help GFs get marginally closer to the deeps output of some of the others, but you're always going to come up against the lower base damage of GF weapons, so 7k power for a GF is barely competitive with 3k power for a CW.
Everyone knows that you subtract about 25% from the GS of any conq GF, because powerpadding doesn't actually increase output that significantly. Fixing the GS display would just save you the bother of doing this.
Others claim that our defensive stats are low compared to GWFs. That is true, Sentinels are tougher than GFs, in general. But, GFs are still "tankier" than other classes.
Some of you want more guard meter. I think Devs have provided you the right tools to increase it yourself now. Since all T1 sets will be useless in MOD 3, and T2 will be good only for PVE content, go to farm glory points and get yourself the Profound set. It is a viable set for PVE content and it is much much better than ALL the other sets. With the full set you get 30% more guard meter. Then, make yourself more intuitive. in PVP use TIDE OF IRON, it restores 10% of your guard meter IMMEDIATELY at every hit you give. With the right timing (Block>TIDE>BLOCK>TIDE) not even GWFs can take my guard meter completely down in less than 1 minute of fighting. And, in PVP,1 minute is really long!
..sure dev pprovided the tolls and tide iron save you... 1 GF is figther focused in def (the other class of neverwinter have more def skill and betters def stat,feat tham GF), you an get 9k on def and no help to nothing becuase 9k on GF on another class is 52 % dmg redc. hit 10k on you pass to 4.8 k very nice! but you have 30 k hp almost...but in t2 dungeon in 1 seg can the addis hit more tham 10 k....used your shield whit 30% bosster+15% SM+tide of iron+ET+IW and you survive 2 seg more..
now see the same example in GFW warrior path focus in atk the need at last 3.5 k in def that is 35 % def and dont need down your atck or crit, no need guard because he have unstoppable imune cc, incremen atck speed and run speed, have Temporary hit point,(see the small dif. whit tab ability of Gf) + the GWf have a good dps+ life steal you no need survive beacuase you kill all addis(not metions feat, vorpal, echament, etc)
sooo thx to dev you are doing great work whit GF a prefect class balance
GFs do this to my GWF all the time, and I to them....all the time. This happens to me with just about every class that has an interupt or prone. It's because the enemy was faster to the draw than you were...
I'm all for supporting GFs getting a boost, but it gets harder and harder to care when "suggestions" turn into whining that sounds like an ugly older sister who is jealous of her pretty younger sister.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----