Where have you been trying to salvage the epic drops? I have been taking them to Caer Konig and they salvage fine there , let me log on and just double check , I got a couple of epics while looking about earlier that I never salvaged : I just checked and the epic gear I have got from HE is salvageable in Caer Konig so dunno why you can't salvage it.
I don't know either, but I currently have the Black Ice gauntlets for GFs - they do not have the "Salvageable" text, and if I take them to the salvager in Caer Konig, I can attempt to salvage them, but I am told that I will get 0 RAD.
I would be fine with the items made BoA, or being made salvageable, or the drops changed so I only get black Ice gear for my class....the current situation is quite annoying.
I don't know either, but I currently have the Black Ice gauntlets for GFs - they do not have the "Salvageable" text, and if I take them to the salvager in Caer Konig, I can attempt to salvage them, but I am told that I will get 0 RAD.
I would be fine with the items made BoA, or being made salvageable, or the drops changed so I only get black Ice gear for my class....the current situation is quite annoying.
Ahhh sorry , I thought you meant the other epic gear that drops from the heroic encounters , sorry .
During the big Remorhaz heroic encounter in Icewind pass if the Remoraz pops up next to the cliffs/rocks and fires in a line across the length of the cliff/rocks the telegraph fire attacks red aoe isn't very clear on the floor
Bug: Chilltooth Invasion drops According to the Collection page, the Chilltooth Invasion encounter drops both Hammerstone Main Hand/Off Hand, and Hammerstone Head/Armor/Arms/Feet. The rest of the encounters only drop Main Hand/Off Hand OR Head/Armor/Arms/Feet. It's possible that there are two identically-named but distinct Chilltooth Invasion encounters.
Bug: Barbarian Marauders encounter name None of the collection entries refer to the Barbarian Marauders encounter. I'm fairly certain that "Heroic Encounter: Barbarian Warband" in the Collection refers to the Barbarian Marauders encounter. There are probably other naming discrepancies, but that's the most obvious.
anyone know the name icewind encounter where we need to kill big worm boss?is it even still in game i did not see this encounter on for very long time
Do you mean the The Remorhaz ( I think that is what the encounter is called ) that is one of the 6-10 man ones in icewind pass , you can tell because the beacon is really dark , maybe even black , I did it this morning so it is still in the game and I'm pretty sure one of the epic crafting materials needed for one of the black ice upgrades is a drop , Remorhaz tooth I think ( can't log on to check ) , I would guess that it only spawns once a hour or maybe even less .
Do you mean the The Remorhaz ( I think that is what the encounter is called ) that is one of the 6-10 man ones in icewind pass , you can tell because the beacon is really dark , maybe even black , I did it this morning so it is still in the game and I'm pretty sure one of the epic crafting materials needed for one of the black ice upgrades is a drop , Remorhaz tooth I think ( can't log on to check ) , I would guess that it only spawns once a hour or maybe even less .
good to know would be good if they can improve spawn times of this 6-10man encounters
After obtaining enough scrolls ther was no clickable "monoliths" activated in Dwarven Valley to activate the golems in order to finish quest. I was able to finish quest by going to Icewind Pass where the "monoliths" were activated.
Edit...sry wrong thread. I will post in pvp thread as well.
Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I find it highly annoying that the quest trails divert to the nearest heroic encounter when you're trying to go to a quest area. We don't need the trail to lead us to the encounters...they're very obvious on the map and from the swirly light trail rising from them. I'm hoping this gets addressed. Thanks!
icewind encounters became a lot harder to me on my gwf since last patch i cant any more solo them at all i tried few of them and fail
Ok fair call, in icewind dale it's a bit harder now, raiders do some more damage, but wizards are wizards, and mine can just keep soloing the 2-3 people ones easily, even when handicapping myself to 13k GS only, which is quite low.
Note that at 13k GS using the wizard pvp gear it's not completely a faceroll anymore and requires some planning. I like that some sustained damage was added.
Since I'm not sure mobs are going to get another buffs for the 3-5 people encounters, may we have a limit on the number of people who can interact with the heroic encounters npcs? If it doesn't get a buff it's going to be very annoying to see people messing up with your encounter, making it easier than it should and ruining your fun even if there's a new encounter for them 50m farther.
Since I'm not sure mobs are going to get another buffs for the 3-5 people encounters, may we have a limit on the number of people who can interact with the heroic encounters npcs? If it doesn't get a buff it's going to be very annoying to see people messing up with your encounter, making it easier than it should and ruining your fun even if there's a new encounter for them 50m farther.
Eww no thanks , the whole point of the heroic encounters is that anybody can join in , dunno what you're bothered about in any case , you been complaining you can solo them all in seconds for the past week or more anyways.
Eww no thanks , the whole point of the heroic encounters is that anybody can join in , dunno what you're bothered about in any case , you been complaining you can solo them all in seconds for the past week or more anyways.
Since I'm not sure mobs are going to get another buffs for the 3-5 people encounters, may we have a limit on the number of people who can interact with the heroic encounters npcs? If it doesn't get a buff it's going to be very annoying to see people messing up with your encounter,
Actually it is NOT your encounter...it is anyone who happens by. If it was just YOUR encounter either only YOU would be able to see it, or it would be an instance.
Everyone is gonna have to learn to play nice in the sand box together.
Feedback: The Motherlode Epic Heroic Encounter Class: Great Weapon Fighter
I'd just spent the best part of 4 hours upgrading my enchantments to rank 9 and 10. I wanted to test how these enchantments fared in the Epic Heroic encounter: The Motherlode. As I ran into an outer pack (with Shaman) I died instantly, soulforged, and died again instantly. My Combat Log illustrated the problem, which is, in my opinion, overpowered damage output by NPC's:
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 6937 (12868) Physical to you with Spear.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 6434 BlackIce to you with Black Ice Corruption.
[Combat (Self)] Your Elven Tranquility gives 542 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 942 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 11511 (21354) Cold to you with Wrath of Winter.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 10677 BlackIce to you with Black Ice Corruption.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 2135 BlackIce to you with Black Ice Corruption.
[Combat (Self)] Your Soulforged Armor gives 5400 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Soulforged Armor gives 1080 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 3904 (12913) Physical to you with Spear.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 6456 BlackIce to you with Black Ice Corruption.
[Error] You are injured!
I feel that a Guardian Fighter Blocking would instantly lose Guard Meter during the opening attacks.
Feedback: The Motherlode Epic Heroic Encounter Class: Great Weapon Fighter
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 6456 BlackIce to you with Black Ice Corruption.
[Error] You are injured!
I feel that a Guardian Fighter Blocking would instantly lose Guard Meter during the opening attacks.
Hence the need for Black Ice Gear. I noticed from what you posted your Life Steal seems non existent.
Also I cannot stress this enough, Heroic Encounters are not meant to be soloed
FURTHER WHAT DID YOU EXPECT FROM The Motherlode EPIC Heroic Encounter
That enounter is supposed to be TOUGH .
Since the last preview build I struggle with the 2-3 HE now solo. I win some and lose some if I try them solo. I was able to do them with ease and no danger before. This is as it should be.
No more facerolling encoutners. I have seen CW's struggling as well.
The Motherlode Epic Heroic Encounter
*snipped the combat logs*
Yep I did exactly the same thing and suffered the same fate lol , as cayapp said this is a 6-10 man heroic encounter probably intended to be tried if you are wearing black ice gear with other players or at the very least with other players, take no notice of all the posts saying they can solo all the heroics , while soloing the 2-3 man ones is easy (probably intended ) the 4-6 man (wolf pack one not counted) and 6-10 man ones are a whole different beast .
Yep I did exactly the same thing and suffered the same fate lol , as cayapp said this is a 6-10 man heroic encounter probably intended to be tried if you are wearing black ice gear with other players or at the very least with other players, take no notice of all the posts saying they can solo all the heroics , while soloing the 2-3 man ones is easy (probably intended ) the 4-6 man (wolf pack one not counted) and 6-10 man ones are a whole different beast .
yeah, definitely. I took part in the Remorhaz encounter not too long ago, and basically everybody in the region descended upon it. And we needed that many people, because that thing would have walked all over a group of five
Yep I did exactly the same thing and suffered the same fate lol , as cayapp said this is a 6-10 man heroic encounter probably intended to be tried if you are wearing black ice gear with other players or at the very least with other players, take no notice of all the posts saying they can solo all the heroics , while soloing the 2-3 man ones is easy (probably intended ) the 4-6 man (wolf pack one not counted) and 6-10 man ones are a whole different beast .
Unfortunately the 6-10 players encounters seem to be pretty rare, I've spent a fair amount of time on preview and didn't see one so far. What a pity.
Eww no thanks , the whole point of the heroic encounters is that anybody can join in , dunno what you're bothered about in any case , you been complaining you can solo them all in seconds for the past week or more anyways.
The 2-3 people ones, yes, they're still pretty much soloable, and since the devs only asked for subjective feedback, I merely said this isn't going to be satisfying for people having nice, well developed, characters and having played the game for several months.
Now if the 6-10 people encounters are as rare as I think they are, the whole map is going to come and give it a try because of course, there are unique resources to earn, and that's probably going to be boring if there are 25 people doing what 6 people are supposed to be able to handle well... That's why more frequent encounters and restricting the number of players who may join the fight could be a good solution to preserve some challenge for people like me who don't enjoy steamrolling mobs easy mode. It's supposed to feel heroic (with pain and sweet), not ganking mbos because, heck, it's the only max size encounter that is going to spawn for the next 30 mins or 1h... I also think that having 6-10 people encounters instead of 20-25 ones for such rare encounters on such a big map as "hard" content is IMO not good design but it's too late to change it, I guess. That's why I'm giving my own subjective feedback on that topic, thank you.
The 2-3 people ones, yes, they're still pretty much soloable, and since the devs only asked for subjective feedback, I merely said this isn't going to be satisfying for people having nice, well developed, characters and having played the game for several months.
Most people playing on Test/preview are skilled players with pretty good to well above average gear. The 2-3 HE are going to be a challenge for a lot of players.
Now if the 6-10 people encounters are as rare as I think they are, the whole map is going to come and give it a try because of course, there are unique resources to earn, and that's probably going to be boring if there are 25 people doing what 6 people are supposed to be able to handle well...
I have done a number of these epic encounters and yes it really took 20 people to do them in the time allotted. So I do not see this as issue. JUst Trust me on this 10 people will not be able to complete the EPIC Heroic encounters.
That's why more frequent encounters and restricting the number of players who may join the fight could be a good solution to preserve some challenge for people like me who don't enjoy steamrolling mobs easy mode. It's supposed to feel heroic (with pain and sweet), not ganking mbos because, heck, it's the only max size encounter that is going to spawn for the next 30 mins or 1h... I also think that having 6-10 people encounters instead of 20-25 ones for such rare encounters on such a big map as "hard" content is IMO not good design but it's too late to change it, I guess. That's why I'm giving my own subjective feedback on that topic, thank you.
LOL... there are already 6 to 10 people encounters just not labeled as such, check out the 5-6 recommended encounters in Dwarven Valley. By the way the Totem ones are undercons or need very skilled players and well geared to do with 2 or 3 people, I think those also recommend 4 to 6.
I am not saying your opinion is wrong, but just not sure you have really experienced the hard encounters. I have been playing exclusively on preview/test since this was patched over other then doing my daily DR campaign dungeon runs and invoking on my toons once a day. I am pretty sure I have done every heroic encounter at least once successfully with the right amount of people. Prior to the last preview build I was able as most wizards, and GWF were able to solo the ones up to 4-6, however that changed and for the better. Just read some of the previous posts. We are playing these encounters to test for challenge, bugs, and many other issues as well as providing feedback on tuning. Not all feedback is reported here trust me.
Unfortunately the 6-10 players encounters seem to be pretty rare, I've spent a fair amount of time on preview and didn't see one so far. What a pity.
Yeah they are going to be annoying to farm , I only spend a hour or two a day on the preview and it's only luck that I have seen either the Remorhaz or motherlode heroics and I'm pretty certain I haven't seen any 6-10 man ones on the Dwarf valley map , hopefully they will be on a schedule and not completely random when they go live because I'm taking it for granted that black ice gear drops and the epic crafting materials are going to be RNG hell to get.
Certain crafting materials only drops from specific encounters.
Yeah remorhaz fang for the black ice orb , looks like I'll have to pitch a tent on that spot knowing my luck with RNG , I have a good idea where the shamnic salve drops and probably the troll bone too but I am clueless what heroic the beholder hide comes from.
Hence the need for Black Ice Gear. I noticed from what you posted your Life Steal seems non existent. A: My gear is currently the PvP gear so I can nip in and out of PvP area, and it's Fabled Ilyanbruen otherwise
FURTHER WHAT DID YOU EXPECT FROM The Motherlode EPIC Heroic Encounter A: 5 Seconds to adjust, it's easier coming at Motherlode from a different angle, nearly soloable in rank 10's from this angle.
That enounter is supposed to be TOUGH . A: Absolutely
Since the last preview build I struggle with the 2-3 HE now solo. I win some and lose some if I try them solo. I was able to do them with ease and no danger before. This is as it should be. A: Absolutely, although taking out the bear first makes it easy.
I can only see the lack of Black Ice gloves causing this problem. The Black Ice Salve, received as Blackforge daily profits does help a lot, but I'm a little apprehensive to get the Black Ice Set only to farm the Black Ice Gloves that drop from the Icewind Pass Epic Heroics.
At current I'm setting up a parse spreadsheet using copy/paste of Combat log to .txt - then using a spreadsheet to show the different mob attacks, their incoming damage, Output dmg, net deficit/gain in HP with/without pots and a graph detailing these ratios over time (row 1 = dmg output in incidents, row 2 incoming bear spear, row 3 incoming black ice dmg etc Y-axis = time X-axis = dmg types and Z-axis=net dmg from these.
Don't get me wrong I don't expect to solo the Epic Heroics, and I think it will add more co-op play, plus the random inclusion factor that openworld encounters offer (I play a GWF, it's make your own group, make friends or 'Get lucky in /lfg' if they're not on)
The Neverwinter team are VERY VERY good at instantiation and these encounters are well respected, myself included.
0
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited April 2014
Is it just me or does the...eh Auril HE seem much harder than other HEs that are supposed to be of the same difficulty level?
Lol you probably finished one someone else started...your posts are very entertaining. 2 seconds is a complte exageration and posts like this are starting to make you look silly.
Lol you probably finished one someone else started...your posts are very entertaining. 2 seconds is a complte exageration and posts like this are starting to make you look silly.
not after todays patch , after todays patch have to play thru all 3 phases , you do realize that this content is created with 10k gear score and 3 boons as a gateway into it so bragging about how you solo it while massively overgeared on what is universally agreed to be a hugely op class makes you look kinda silly don't you?
Comments
I don't know either, but I currently have the Black Ice gauntlets for GFs - they do not have the "Salvageable" text, and if I take them to the salvager in Caer Konig, I can attempt to salvage them, but I am told that I will get 0 RAD.
I would be fine with the items made BoA, or being made salvageable, or the drops changed so I only get black Ice gear for my class....the current situation is quite annoying.
Ahhh sorry , I thought you meant the other epic gear that drops from the heroic encounters , sorry .
During the big Remorhaz heroic encounter in Icewind pass if the Remoraz pops up next to the cliffs/rocks and fires in a line across the length of the cliff/rocks the telegraph fire attacks red aoe isn't very clear on the floor
According to the Collection page, the Chilltooth Invasion encounter drops both Hammerstone Main Hand/Off Hand, and Hammerstone Head/Armor/Arms/Feet. The rest of the encounters only drop Main Hand/Off Hand OR Head/Armor/Arms/Feet. It's possible that there are two identically-named but distinct Chilltooth Invasion encounters.
Bug: Barbarian Marauders encounter name
None of the collection entries refer to the Barbarian Marauders encounter. I'm fairly certain that "Heroic Encounter: Barbarian Warband" in the Collection refers to the Barbarian Marauders encounter. There are probably other naming discrepancies, but that's the most obvious.
icewind encounters became a lot harder to me on my gwf since last patch i cant any more solo them at all i tried few of them and fail
Do you mean the The Remorhaz ( I think that is what the encounter is called ) that is one of the 6-10 man ones in icewind pass , you can tell because the beacon is really dark , maybe even black , I did it this morning so it is still in the game and I'm pretty sure one of the epic crafting materials needed for one of the black ice upgrades is a drop , Remorhaz tooth I think ( can't log on to check ) , I would guess that it only spawns once a hour or maybe even less .
good to know would be good if they can improve spawn times of this 6-10man encounters
Edit...sry wrong thread. I will post in pvp thread as well.
Ok fair call, in icewind dale it's a bit harder now, raiders do some more damage, but wizards are wizards, and mine can just keep soloing the 2-3 people ones easily, even when handicapping myself to 13k GS only, which is quite low.
Note that at 13k GS using the wizard pvp gear it's not completely a faceroll anymore and requires some planning. I like that some sustained damage was added.
Since I'm not sure mobs are going to get another buffs for the 3-5 people encounters, may we have a limit on the number of people who can interact with the heroic encounters npcs? If it doesn't get a buff it's going to be very annoying to see people messing up with your encounter, making it easier than it should and ruining your fun even if there's a new encounter for them 50m farther.
Eww no thanks , the whole point of the heroic encounters is that anybody can join in , dunno what you're bothered about in any case , you been complaining you can solo them all in seconds for the past week or more anyways.
Amen............
Actually it is NOT your encounter...it is anyone who happens by. If it was just YOUR encounter either only YOU would be able to see it, or it would be an instance.
Everyone is gonna have to learn to play nice in the sand box together.
Class: Great Weapon Fighter
I'd just spent the best part of 4 hours upgrading my enchantments to rank 9 and 10. I wanted to test how these enchantments fared in the Epic Heroic encounter: The Motherlode. As I ran into an outer pack (with Shaman) I died instantly, soulforged, and died again instantly. My Combat Log illustrated the problem, which is, in my opinion, overpowered damage output by NPC's:
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 6937 (12868) Physical to you with Spear.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 6434 BlackIce to you with Black Ice Corruption.
[Combat (Self)] Your Elven Tranquility gives 542 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 942 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 11511 (21354) Cold to you with Wrath of Winter.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 10677 BlackIce to you with Black Ice Corruption.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 2135 BlackIce to you with Black Ice Corruption.
[Combat (Self)] Your Soulforged Armor gives 5400 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Soulforged Armor gives 1080 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 3904 (12913) Physical to you with Spear.
[Combat (Self)] Corrupted Raider deals 6456 BlackIce to you with Black Ice Corruption.
[Error] You are injured!
I feel that a Guardian Fighter Blocking would instantly lose Guard Meter during the opening attacks.
Hence the need for Black Ice Gear. I noticed from what you posted your Life Steal seems non existent.
Also I cannot stress this enough, Heroic Encounters are not meant to be soloed
FURTHER WHAT DID YOU EXPECT FROM The Motherlode EPIC Heroic Encounter
That enounter is supposed to be TOUGH .
Since the last preview build I struggle with the 2-3 HE now solo. I win some and lose some if I try them solo. I was able to do them with ease and no danger before. This is as it should be.
No more facerolling encoutners. I have seen CW's struggling as well.
Yep I did exactly the same thing and suffered the same fate lol , as cayapp said this is a 6-10 man heroic encounter probably intended to be tried if you are wearing black ice gear with other players or at the very least with other players, take no notice of all the posts saying they can solo all the heroics , while soloing the 2-3 man ones is easy (probably intended ) the 4-6 man (wolf pack one not counted) and 6-10 man ones are a whole different beast .
yeah, definitely. I took part in the Remorhaz encounter not too long ago, and basically everybody in the region descended upon it. And we needed that many people, because that thing would have walked all over a group of five
Unfortunately the 6-10 players encounters seem to be pretty rare, I've spent a fair amount of time on preview and didn't see one so far. What a pity.
The 2-3 people ones, yes, they're still pretty much soloable, and since the devs only asked for subjective feedback, I merely said this isn't going to be satisfying for people having nice, well developed, characters and having played the game for several months.
Now if the 6-10 people encounters are as rare as I think they are, the whole map is going to come and give it a try because of course, there are unique resources to earn, and that's probably going to be boring if there are 25 people doing what 6 people are supposed to be able to handle well... That's why more frequent encounters and restricting the number of players who may join the fight could be a good solution to preserve some challenge for people like me who don't enjoy steamrolling mobs easy mode. It's supposed to feel heroic (with pain and sweet), not ganking mbos because, heck, it's the only max size encounter that is going to spawn for the next 30 mins or 1h... I also think that having 6-10 people encounters instead of 20-25 ones for such rare encounters on such a big map as "hard" content is IMO not good design but it's too late to change it, I guess. That's why I'm giving my own subjective feedback on that topic, thank you.
Yes they are rare for a good reason.
Most people playing on Test/preview are skilled players with pretty good to well above average gear. The 2-3 HE are going to be a challenge for a lot of players.
I have done a number of these epic encounters and yes it really took 20 people to do them in the time allotted. So I do not see this as issue. JUst Trust me on this 10 people will not be able to complete the EPIC Heroic encounters.
LOL... there are already 6 to 10 people encounters just not labeled as such, check out the 5-6 recommended encounters in Dwarven Valley. By the way the Totem ones are undercons or need very skilled players and well geared to do with 2 or 3 people, I think those also recommend 4 to 6.
I am not saying your opinion is wrong, but just not sure you have really experienced the hard encounters. I have been playing exclusively on preview/test since this was patched over other then doing my daily DR campaign dungeon runs and invoking on my toons once a day. I am pretty sure I have done every heroic encounter at least once successfully with the right amount of people. Prior to the last preview build I was able as most wizards, and GWF were able to solo the ones up to 4-6, however that changed and for the better. Just read some of the previous posts. We are playing these encounters to test for challenge, bugs, and many other issues as well as providing feedback on tuning. Not all feedback is reported here trust me.
Yeah they are going to be annoying to farm , I only spend a hour or two a day on the preview and it's only luck that I have seen either the Remorhaz or motherlode heroics and I'm pretty certain I haven't seen any 6-10 man ones on the Dwarf valley map , hopefully they will be on a schedule and not completely random when they go live because I'm taking it for granted that black ice gear drops and the epic crafting materials are going to be RNG hell to get.
Yeah remorhaz fang for the black ice orb , looks like I'll have to pitch a tent on that spot knowing my luck with RNG , I have a good idea where the shamnic salve drops and probably the troll bone too but I am clueless what heroic the beholder hide comes from.
I can only see the lack of Black Ice gloves causing this problem. The Black Ice Salve, received as Blackforge daily profits does help a lot, but I'm a little apprehensive to get the Black Ice Set only to farm the Black Ice Gloves that drop from the Icewind Pass Epic Heroics.
At current I'm setting up a parse spreadsheet using copy/paste of Combat log to .txt - then using a spreadsheet to show the different mob attacks, their incoming damage, Output dmg, net deficit/gain in HP with/without pots and a graph detailing these ratios over time (row 1 = dmg output in incidents, row 2 incoming bear spear, row 3 incoming black ice dmg etc Y-axis = time X-axis = dmg types and Z-axis=net dmg from these.
Don't get me wrong I don't expect to solo the Epic Heroics, and I think it will add more co-op play, plus the random inclusion factor that openworld encounters offer (I play a GWF, it's make your own group, make friends or 'Get lucky in /lfg' if they're not on)
The Neverwinter team are VERY VERY good at instantiation and these encounters are well respected, myself included.
When did you try that? Last time i checked i was able to zerg the totem and kill it so fast the encounter was done in under 2s...
or you debuff it and then use ice knife.
Please make the Heroic Encounters so hard that only diogene0 is able to complete them.
not after todays patch , after todays patch have to play thru all 3 phases , you do realize that this content is created with 10k gear score and 3 boons as a gateway into it so bragging about how you solo it while massively overgeared on what is universally agreed to be a hugely op class makes you look kinda silly don't you?