While this is speculation, why would the GWF feat change the character sheet's AP gain by the full amount of Unstoppable Action when you go Unstoppable with the feat? I don't imagine Action Advantage working differently at all.
Of course the bonus isn't additive, it is multiplicative, but that applies to the 2% Boon as well. The 2% Boon doesn't give you 2% AP whenever you get any AP. It gives you x1.02 AP you would have gotten from using a particular encounter, just as Action Advantage would (but x1.15). Both together would give you x1.17
Honestly i dont know why we are taking GWF as reference to TRs, that doesn't make any sense to me.
I have tested the AP gain from the boon and it is additive, not multiplicative while the AP gain from TR feat isn't additive at all.
The feats that gives extra AP gain, for TRs, are directly proportional to the total AP gain you have from recovery/boons. Which means they are multiplicative bonuses.
For example-
IF you have 23% base AP gain, AA and Cunning will give you more AP than when you have 19% AP gain.
While for the boon, you get + 2% flat AP gain to your character sheet regardless of how much base AP gain you have.
Hey I got a question, i saw a bunch of guides and Im trying to go my own path, but there some things im not sure:
How do u know if a bonus is additive or multiplicative?
On my feats I was thinking about getting the Action Advantage feat and the Cunning Stalker feat, are they both multiplicative? Whats the difference between them?
Is the feats that reduce the cost of stamina for dodges or the one that u get 10% stealth each dodge actually usefull? i hv them but dont really see a difference on my stealth with them.
If i dont get Cunning Stalker, is Speed Swindle any good?
Tyvm guys
You can know if a bonus is additive or multiplicative by going against a mob and start attacking it, with and without the bonus, and monitor the differences.
Cunning stalker is the same as AA, they are multiplicative bonus.
The Action advantage feat bonus isn't additive, the bonus it gives is 15% AP gain out of your total AP gain % which will make you end up like 1% bonus AP gain while you are in CA..so points there aren't worth it. The boon is additive bonus, it is +2% to your total AP % which is obviously better than adding 700 HP and it is a permanent additive bonus, not just while you are in CA.
You can check me on gateway. I have already posted what i use on OP, but i didn't want to go into all my gears details because my itemization could be uncomfortable for others to afford/use.
For example, Ximae got the same stats as me but he has different itemization and stats allocation.
By the way, your feat trees on the first page are blank? I wasn't sure if it was just me or not, but I was able to view someone else's so you might want to look into it.
Cheers.
[Edit] Also, it wasn't clear. Did you choose Whisper Knife or Master Infiltrator for your Paragon paths?
Has anyone noticed how broken duelist flurry is? Sly flourish is stronger than my duelist and im on the executioner build.
Also ive noticed a lot of the executioner feats dont actually work or do what they say the do, alas i have respeced to the scoundrel tree, its not too bad much less crit no buff for party but it seems to be working, lemme know if you guys have noticed any of the above mentioned.
By the way, your feat trees on the first page are blank? I wasn't sure if it was just me or not, but I was able to view someone else's so you might want to look into it.
Cheers.
[Edit] Also, it wasn't clear. Did you choose Whisper Knife or Master Infiltrator for your Paragon paths?
stone is not accounted for there I have the following on it:
2 eldritch r7 runestones on offensive slot and 1 profane r7 rune on defensive slot
ancient berserkers ring of cleaving(power,arp, ls) with radiant enchant r7
ancient slavemaster amulet of control(power, recovery, defense) with radiant enchant r7
icon of the beacon of faith(power, recovery, crit) with dark enchant r7
boons: defense, crit and ap% from sharandar and power, regen and arp from dread ring
Hi, firstly I thank you for guide and comments. It is very helpfull.
If i understand correctly, TR dps is mostly about doing damage with CA (which gained mostly with stealth). The question that i wanna ask is: how about whisperknife path.
In this path,
1. dishearting strike:2nd at will and it is dot damage
2. razor in action: when it combines with seething knives feat (2nd tier of scoundrel)
3. advantagous position: class feature that give CA duration after stealth.
For reader information: I'm newly lvl 60 and still got blues and greenes. I dont have much experience in high lvl dungeons, so practicly i dont know are these points effect much on dps or not.
ps: sory for bad english
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arriMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Hi, firstly I thank you for guide and comments. It is very helpfull.
If i understand correctly, TR dps is mostly about doing damage with CA (which gained mostly with stealth). The question that i wanna ask is: how about whisperknife path.
In this path,
1. dishearting strike:2nd at will and it is dot damage
2. razor in action: when it combines with seething knives feat (2nd tier of scoundrel)
3. advantagous position: class feature that give CA duration after stealth.
For reader information: I'm newly lvl 60 and still got blues and greenes. I dont have much experience in high lvl dungeons, so practicly i dont know are these points effect much on dps or not.
ps: sory for bad english
The build is pretty much built around master infiltrator. However, both 1, 2 and 3 are all parts of a whisperknife's arsenal that increase their DPS. Don't forget their Hateful Knives daily that makes the target grant CA to the ENTIRE party. Whisperknife is a lot more mid range/supporty than straight up personal DPS. You're going to be lowering enemy damage with vengeance's pursuit/disheartening strike (if traited for it) and you'll be giving the entire party a few seconds of combat advantage on bosses.
You'll want to maintain disheartening strike's DoT as much as possible. Combine that with Duelist's Flurry's bleed and Razor Action's (traited) DoT, that's a lot of DoT you have at your disposal. As you can probably tell, the Whisperknife at this point seems a lot more DoT oriented than straight up damage.
Note: Add 2 points to Improved cunning sneak in the first link, as the calculator isn't updating that.
About that other 2 links they seem to be fine, i have posted only heroic feats in them intentionally. You can see the rest of feats and powers selection from the first link ( the one linked to my build directly) and from what i wrote afterwards.
Also, i have added a link to Ximae's post when he discussed his gearing path and his stats allocation. They are very good information make sure to check the character's Equipment section for it .
I actually changed one thing in the gearing, my ranger needed a couple r7 radiants XD, so him and my rogue swapped those for a couple azure r7. With that change + the lanterns crit that had me over my initially intended 3300... it put me at around 4k crit and 5k power.... resulting in around 1.5% higher crit chance in exchange for 370 power.
being so over stacked on stats where its not hurting going far into diminishing returns maybe that 1.5% higher crit chance might prove better dps than an extra 370 power considering im using a perfect vorpal and im half orc.
havent done any tests, probably wont be able to tell the difference anyways if i did... but its something to consider.
I actually changed one thing in the gearing, my ranger needed a couple r7 radiants XD, so him and my rogue swapped those for a couple azure r7. With that change + the lanterns crit that had me over my initially intended 3300... it put me at around 4k crit and 5k power.... resulting in around 1.5% higher crit chance in exchange for 370 power.
being so over stacked on stats where its not hurting going far into diminishing returns maybe that 1.5% higher crit chance might prove better dps than an extra 370 power considering im using a perfect vorpal and im half orc.
havent done any tests, probably wont be able to tell the difference anyways if i did... but its something to consider.
That's interesting.
I don't remember having that much of a difference when my crit was 3.8k+. When i reduced to 3.2k i lost around 0.8% crit chance, how did you gain that much of crit chance from just 370 crit stat starting @3.5k+ ?
I look at the diminishing returns graphs, but i can't understand, how do you determine the limit where one stat is not worth increasing anymore?
Armor penetration to 24% resistance ignored is clear, but the rest?
HOW do you decide when Crit, Recovery, Life Steal is enough and it's time for Power?
Well you need to know how to read a graph. You see on the X axis the flat number values, and on Y axis the % numbers values.
Pretty much when you see the mean of the curve getting less ( m= Y/X) it means that stat is diminishing.
to simplify it more, for example, if you add 500 crit stat to your base 1000 crit stat the crit chance gain should be + 4% crit chance. But if you add 500 crit stat to your base 2500 crit stat, the gain should be + 1% crit chance. That means that crit stat is diminishing at around 2500.
So, wanna waste 500 stat to get 1% crit chance? or wanna distribute them on power/armor pen/recovery/lifesteal..etc? that's called min-maxing.
And WHY exactly Regen and Deflection is not worth it?
For regeneration, this is the reason why:
1- Your HP is too low to benefit from regeneration as the build focuses on damage.
2- It is PvE, you pretty much can use potions and heal yourself for 8500 .
3- Life steal heals you more than your potions. The more damage you deal = the more heal you get. Which works in good synergy with that build as it is focused on increasing the output damage. Unlike regen, which is dependent on how much HP you have.
About deflection....In PvE you have to dodge the enemies circles no matter how much deflection/defense you have.
It won't save you from a dracolich hand nor when you are focused by a pack of mobs. In PvE you know when and where enemies will attack you, so you can just dodge it instead of depending on a chance to deflect it. Besides, ItC = 100% deflection chance so you can use it when you are out of stamina or focused by attacks from multiple directions.
For PvE, if you want to enhance your defensive stats then it is better to add defense and life steal since defense is always going to reduce the incoming damage and life steal will heal you every time you attack and is dependent on how much damage you deal. Unlike deflection, which is a CHANCE and regen that ticks every 3 seconds and dependent on how much HP you are missing from your max HP.
Thanks for explaining regen and deflection, it seems reasonable and i see it clearly now.
I can read a graph, but how do you come up with a specific number, like 2900 recovery or XXXX lifesteal?
Comparing lifesteal vs defense - or - recovery vs crit vs power is what's bugging me
The numbers come up from extensive testings. Some players, with alot of spare time, actually bothered to dedicate their time to test how much % you gain when you increase X stat by a certain amount. Basically, when you reach the point where the gain from the % part is way less that means that the stat is starting to hit diminishing returns.
About comparing part...it isn't really a "comparison" it is more like "which-stat-should-i-prioritize-first". You realize which stat you need by the experience you attain while playing the game which inturn help you understanding what each stat do exactly and how does it contribute to your total performance.
Updated OP with the paragon path name as i was getting alot of questions about it.
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brandewynnMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited March 2014
Thanks for the awesome TR Guide. Typically I play caster/ healer types. However I wanted to give melee a try here and see if I remember those little things at the end of my legs (feet) or if I will still get killed by them while up close and personal with the bad guys. I also wanted to say thank you guys for being awesome in forums. Too many MMO forums are full of trash talk and put downs or trolls to take anything said at face value. This is refreshing to see people working together for a common goal on these forums.
I rolled out my TR earlier this week and she is currently lvl 15 (due to hubby's work schedule slowing down progress as we team level) and I have one question, not directly related to the TR but new low level guys in general as I have noticed a couple things I fudged on already. Since I didn't have this character when the HR patch went live, does anyone know if I will still get the free respec at 60? No biggie if not, but would be nice to be able to redo things at 60 so they are conducive to gearing up for the real meat and potatoes of the game without spending real money.
Since I didn't have this character when the HR patch went live, does anyone know if I will still get the free respec at 60? No biggie if not, but would be nice to be able to redo things at 60 so they are conducive to gearing up for the real meat and potatoes of the game without spending real money.
There is no "free respec at 60". That's just a misconception people have for some reason. Since module 2 introduced new paragon paths and various other changes, all characters that existed at that time were granted a free respec, regardless of level, to allow players to take advantage of new features.
When other big changes to classes are rolled out, there will undoubtedly be free respecs again. So you can wait, or you can buy one (btw, they're on sale until Thursday).
Comments
Honestly i dont know why we are taking GWF as reference to TRs, that doesn't make any sense to me.
I have tested the AP gain from the boon and it is additive, not multiplicative while the AP gain from TR feat isn't additive at all.
The feats that gives extra AP gain, for TRs, are directly proportional to the total AP gain you have from recovery/boons. Which means they are multiplicative bonuses.
For example-
IF you have 23% base AP gain, AA and Cunning will give you more AP than when you have 19% AP gain.
While for the boon, you get + 2% flat AP gain to your character sheet regardless of how much base AP gain you have.
You can know if a bonus is additive or multiplicative by going against a mob and start attacking it, with and without the bonus, and monitor the differences.
Cunning stalker is the same as AA, they are multiplicative bonus.
Speed swindle is useless for PvE.
By the way, your feat trees on the first page are blank? I wasn't sure if it was just me or not, but I was able to view someone else's so you might want to look into it.
Cheers.
[Edit] Also, it wasn't clear. Did you choose Whisper Knife or Master Infiltrator for your Paragon paths?
Has anyone noticed how broken duelist flurry is? Sly flourish is stronger than my duelist and im on the executioner build.
Also ive noticed a lot of the executioner feats dont actually work or do what they say the do, alas i have respeced to the scoundrel tree, its not too bad much less crit no buff for party but it seems to be working, lemme know if you guys have noticed any of the above mentioned.
Thanks.
It is fixed. Thanks.
My paragon is Master Infiltrator.
http://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#char(Xim@ximae)/charactersheet
stone is not accounted for there I have the following on it:
2 eldritch r7 runestones on offensive slot and 1 profane r7 rune on defensive slot
ancient berserkers ring of cleaving(power,arp, ls) with radiant enchant r7
ancient slavemaster amulet of control(power, recovery, defense) with radiant enchant r7
icon of the beacon of faith(power, recovery, crit) with dark enchant r7
boons: defense, crit and ap% from sharandar and power, regen and arp from dread ring
If i understand correctly, TR dps is mostly about doing damage with CA (which gained mostly with stealth). The question that i wanna ask is: how about whisperknife path.
In this path,
1. dishearting strike:2nd at will and it is dot damage
2. razor in action: when it combines with seething knives feat (2nd tier of scoundrel)
3. advantagous position: class feature that give CA duration after stealth.
For reader information: I'm newly lvl 60 and still got blues and greenes. I dont have much experience in high lvl dungeons, so practicly i dont know are these points effect much on dps or not.
ps: sory for bad english
The build is pretty much built around master infiltrator. However, both 1, 2 and 3 are all parts of a whisperknife's arsenal that increase their DPS. Don't forget their Hateful Knives daily that makes the target grant CA to the ENTIRE party. Whisperknife is a lot more mid range/supporty than straight up personal DPS. You're going to be lowering enemy damage with vengeance's pursuit/disheartening strike (if traited for it) and you'll be giving the entire party a few seconds of combat advantage on bosses.
You'll want to maintain disheartening strike's DoT as much as possible. Combine that with Duelist's Flurry's bleed and Razor Action's (traited) DoT, that's a lot of DoT you have at your disposal. As you can probably tell, the Whisperknife at this point seems a lot more DoT oriented than straight up damage.
Pinny Foxfang - 60 Guardian Fighter
Pinny Foxfire - 60 Scourge Warlock (Temptation)
How do i check people on gateway? Can't seem to find an option, and don't use Gateway that often..
Go to your gateway, and replace (Yourname@tagname) from your browser's address bar with my (Xaldin@esteena).
You will notice that my armor and weapon enchantments are missing, because they are on my GWF.
Is http://nwcalc.com/tr?b=pa7:27bocj:1dx6gw,13j3k3k:100000:1u0000:105u60&h=1&p=min - (link to your skill build at the beginning) correct? I cant see wicked reminder lvled at it, nor smoke bomb. Not sure if Im doing something wrong or its not the skill build its meant to be
Edit: Also, feats in all links seem to be wrong
Oh yes i need to fix them.
Because the calculator's owner made some changes for module 2, so i need to re-post the links.
I will update them right now sorry for that
Note: Add 2 points to Improved cunning sneak in the first link, as the calculator isn't updating that.
About that other 2 links they seem to be fine, i have posted only heroic feats in them intentionally. You can see the rest of feats and powers selection from the first link ( the one linked to my build directly) and from what i wrote afterwards.
Also, i have added a link to Ximae's post when he discussed his gearing path and his stats allocation. They are very good information make sure to check the character's Equipment section for it
being so over stacked on stats where its not hurting going far into diminishing returns maybe that 1.5% higher crit chance might prove better dps than an extra 370 power considering im using a perfect vorpal and im half orc.
havent done any tests, probably wont be able to tell the difference anyways if i did... but its something to consider.
I don't remember having that much of a difference when my crit was 3.8k+. When i reduced to 3.2k i lost around 0.8% crit chance, how did you gain that much of crit chance from just 370 crit stat starting @3.5k+ ?
but still 1%+ crit might be worth it once everything else is in place.
Armor penetration to 24% resistance ignored is clear, but the rest?
HOW do you decide when Crit, Recovery, Life Steal is enough and it's time for Power?
And WHY exactly Regen and Deflection is not worth it?
Well you need to know how to read a graph. You see on the X axis the flat number values, and on Y axis the % numbers values.
Pretty much when you see the mean of the curve getting less ( m= Y/X) it means that stat is diminishing.
to simplify it more, for example, if you add 500 crit stat to your base 1000 crit stat the crit chance gain should be + 4% crit chance. But if you add 500 crit stat to your base 2500 crit stat, the gain should be + 1% crit chance. That means that crit stat is diminishing at around 2500.
So, wanna waste 500 stat to get 1% crit chance? or wanna distribute them on power/armor pen/recovery/lifesteal..etc? that's called min-maxing.
For regeneration, this is the reason why:
1- Your HP is too low to benefit from regeneration as the build focuses on damage.
2- It is PvE, you pretty much can use potions and heal yourself for 8500 .
3- Life steal heals you more than your potions. The more damage you deal = the more heal you get. Which works in good synergy with that build as it is focused on increasing the output damage. Unlike regen, which is dependent on how much HP you have.
About deflection....In PvE you have to dodge the enemies circles no matter how much deflection/defense you have.
It won't save you from a dracolich hand nor when you are focused by a pack of mobs. In PvE you know when and where enemies will attack you, so you can just dodge it instead of depending on a chance to deflect it. Besides, ItC = 100% deflection chance so you can use it when you are out of stamina or focused by attacks from multiple directions.
For PvE, if you want to enhance your defensive stats then it is better to add defense and life steal since defense is always going to reduce the incoming damage and life steal will heal you every time you attack and is dependent on how much damage you deal. Unlike deflection, which is a CHANCE and regen that ticks every 3 seconds and dependent on how much HP you are missing from your max HP.
I can read a graph, but how do you come up with a specific number, like 2900 recovery or XXXX lifesteal?
Comparing lifesteal vs defense - or - recovery vs crit vs power is what's bugging me
The numbers come up from extensive testings. Some players, with alot of spare time, actually bothered to dedicate their time to test how much % you gain when you increase X stat by a certain amount. Basically, when you reach the point where the gain from the % part is way less that means that the stat is starting to hit diminishing returns.
This sheet should make things clearer : https://docs.google.com/a/g.uky.edu/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgK7NUdr8JPldFlsc1lJZng0MmYtMWFyT2F5TW5lblE#gid=0
About comparing part...it isn't really a "comparison" it is more like "which-stat-should-i-prioritize-first". You realize which stat you need by the experience you attain while playing the game which inturn help you understanding what each stat do exactly and how does it contribute to your total performance.
The links seem to be out of date?
It is just a warning message.
The links are fine, just go to the "Feats" tab and you will see the heroic feats there.
I rolled out my TR earlier this week and she is currently lvl 15 (due to hubby's work schedule slowing down progress as we team level) and I have one question, not directly related to the TR but new low level guys in general as I have noticed a couple things I fudged on already.
There is no "free respec at 60". That's just a misconception people have for some reason. Since module 2 introduced new paragon paths and various other changes, all characters that existed at that time were granted a free respec, regardless of level, to allow players to take advantage of new features.
When other big changes to classes are rolled out, there will undoubtedly be free respecs again. So you can wait, or you can buy one (btw, they're on sale until Thursday).
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