I spose going into a fight with "your" personal proper pvp abilities is good yes.
However, I would imagine that most of you, in every class. Use different sets of abilities, for different situations. Depending on the match, I might switch my abilities frequently and on the fly.
I recommend getting good with EVERY ability combination that you have, and knowing how to switch them out quickly when the fight calls for it.
For example. I generally run ITC, Impact and Shadow Strike in Premades. If I am coming up on a node, and know that a perma type TR is close behind, I will quickly change out impact for Path of Blades.
I assume other class's have situations like this you would change as well, and if you don't. I suggest you start practicing with more load outs as its only going to make you better.
I think your right. With GF, imo, there are some key powers that you simply want slotted all the time. I always keep lunging strike and front line surge up and tend to switch out (r) between whatever heavy damage encounter is best at the time- usually knee break (a high damage, dot, control power) or anvil of doom. So a gap closer, an area of affect high damage control power, and a single target very high damage power. 3 shot the cw, guard up on the node against the others and contest till the rest of the party arrives lol.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
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andferne3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 104Bounty Hunter
Secondly:
Fighting premades with a pug team is part of the challenge of PVP and it can be fun. It is unfortunate that this game is full of people who rather make QQ posts and threads instead of facing the challenge. Seriously, players ask for nerfs and advertise they leave PVP because they lack the courage to face the challenge and want everything made easy for them. *shrugs*
This.
I look at it as a challenge. Am I doomed to lose the actual match? Sure. But you can bet that I am going to try and learn something from the experience.
Some good comments about GF's so I want to add something.
Its easy to be mediocre in PvP. Its not rocket science, we all know that. Smash some buttons, eventually you'll kill someone.
But being a skilled, good, or Elite PvP'r is something totally different, and honestly most people will never achieve that level of play, or even want to. It takes a lot of dedication and team work to be at the top, in any game. It also takes a lot of work, and testing. You can be the absolute best of the best omgroflcopter at your class, but if you don't also know the other class's, and their abilities as well, you are always going to start off on a disadvantage.
I've mentioned it many times in my past posts. A great place to start training yourself to become better at PvP, is watching videos of other people playing. All class's. Pugs and premades, and of course..a ton of PvP. That's the main reason I personally like to record videos, I have quite a fiew on my youtube that many of you have seen, but I have probably over a hundred more that I haven't posted. For one its fun for me, and I like to watch them. I'm not even close to perfect, but I get ALOT out of watching myself, and others PvP in videos. I see mistakes I make, and my enemies make, and I make corrections for it to the best of my ability.
I'm not special, or even close to the best, by any means, I don't have any super awesome secrets, I don't have a super special build, or gear. But I'm a smart PvP'r, and its all I do when I play. I like everything about PvP, I like doing it, and talking about it, and helping other people to get better at it. I get a lot of tells and pm's from other TR's actually kinda yelling at me for divulging some super secret they think should be kept quit. But there is no secrets, heh
If you play a Guardian Fighter. Duelist Flurry is a 3 part ability(at-will) -- 3 individual attacks, the third attack becoming the "Flurry" part. We attack extremely fast, are immune to all CC during this duration, as well as applying DoTs to whoever we are hitting. If we crit(and generally we always do), those dots are going to hit very hard. It absolutely shreds your Guard Meter.
Now, the mistakes that just about every single GF makes. Is using encounters while we are IN the animation. Absolutely do your best to prone us, or knock us back during the first 2. But do not use any encounters or at-wills when we are hitting you with the animation part, as its a waste for you, and now when the animation is done, we can just start the process all over again because you wasted your encounters and are a sitting duck now. 9-10 GF's I fight everyday, I generally don't even have to use 1 single encounter, or even use ITC. Because they see the fast damage, and immediately start wasting encounters.
If you don't get us proned or knocked back during the first two, you are screwed, you'll have to eat the damage, but immediately after is your best time to hit us, as it takes a pretty skillful TR to use the correct abilities to stay immune to your cc's, or at the very least dodge away in time, knowing you are about to prone us.
Setting up DF on you --You have to know what to look for here. A Duelist Flurry hit is a downward strike with our dagger. A Sly Flourish strike is a straight forward stabbing motion, and it moves us forward. DF and Sly flourish are completely different, and easy to spot. DF we don't move and we strike down. Sly flourish moves us, and we strike forward with the dagger.
That being said. We can cover a large amount of ground if we jump, while starting the 3 step process. So if you are fighting a TR, and you see him what feels like a good distance away, jumping and stabbing to the ground, that means hes setting up DF for you. Many things you can do here. My recommendation is to back away, and keep your distance. Remember, its a 3 part action, but it has to be done quickly, or the animation starts over. Many GF's will see me starting DF, and lunge into me. What ends up happening is they lunge right into my 3rd part, the animation, because I baited them.
There are many others I'm sure quite better then me at landing DF. But I am very, very good at it. It doesn't matter who you are, or what class you play, if you fight me 1 vs 1, you WILL get hit by DF eventually. But knowing what to look for, is only going to help you. Every single smart PvP'r avoids DF at all costs, even GWF's in unstoppable.
Heres a video of me doing some random pvp. I recommend watching atleast some of it, so you can see what it looks like from my end, when I'm setting up DF on someone. I don't fight any GF's in this video, but I use DF ALOT, and have many 1 vs 2+ fights, where you can see me setting up DF on 1 person, then hitting another squishier target with the animation part. This is one of my favorite videos, hope you enjoy it!
Some good comments about GF's so I want to add something.
Its easy to be mediocre in PvP. Its not rocket science, we all know that. Smash some buttons, eventually you'll kill someone.
But being a skilled, good, or Elite PvP'r is something totally different, and honestly most people will never achieve that level of play, or even want to. It takes a lot of dedication and team work to be at the top, in any game. It also takes a lot of work, and testing. You can be the absolute best of the best omgroflcopter at your class, but if you don't also know the other class's, and their abilities as well, you are always going to start off on a disadvantage.
I've mentioned it many times in my past posts. A great place to start training yourself to become better at PvP, is watching videos of other people playing. All class's. Pugs and premades, and of course..a ton of PvP. That's the main reason I personally like to record videos, I have quite a fiew on my youtube that many of you have seen, but I have probably over a hundred more that I haven't posted. For one its fun for me, and I like to watch them. I'm not even close to perfect, but I get ALOT out of watching myself, and others PvP in videos. I see mistakes I make, and my enemies make, and I make corrections for it to the best of my ability.
I'm not special, or even close to the best, by any means, I don't have any super awesome secrets, I don't have a super special build, or gear. But I'm a smart PvP'r, and its all I do when I play. I like everything about PvP, I like doing it, and talking about it, and helping other people to get better at it. I get a lot of tells and pm's from other TR's actually kinda yelling at me for divulging some super secret they think should be kept quit. But there is no secrets, heh
If you play a Guardian Fighter. Duelist Flurry is a 3 part ability(at-will) -- 3 individual attacks, the third attack becoming the "Flurry" part. We attack extremely fast, are immune to all CC during this duration, as well as applying DoTs to whoever we are hitting. If we crit(and generally we always do), those dots are going to hit very hard. It absolutely shreds your Guard Meter.
Now, the mistakes that just about every single GF makes. Is using encounters while we are IN the animation. Absolutely do your best to prone us, or knock us back during the first 2. But do not use any encounters or at-wills when we are hitting you with the animation part, as its a waste for you, and now when the animation is done, we can just start the process all over again because you wasted your encounters and are a sitting duck now. 9-10 GF's I fight everyday, I generally don't even have to use 1 single encounter, or even use ITC. Because they see the fast damage, and immediately start wasting encounters.
If you don't get us proned or knocked back during the first two, you are screwed, you'll have to eat the damage, but immediately after is your best time to hit us, as it takes a pretty skillful TR to use the correct abilities to stay immune to your cc's, or at the very least dodge away in time, knowing you are about to prone us.
Setting up DF on you --You have to know what to look for here. A Duelist Flurry hit is a downward strike with our dagger. A Sly Flourish strike is a straight forward stabbing motion, and it moves us forward. DF and Sly flourish are completely different, and easy to spot. DF we don't move and we strike down. Sly flourish moves us, and we strike forward with the dagger.
That being said. We can cover a large amount of ground if we jump, while starting the 3 step process. So if you are fighting a TR, and you see him what feels like a good distance away, jumping and stabbing to the ground, that means hes setting up DF for you. Many things you can do here. My recommendation is to back away, and keep your distance. Remember, its a 3 part action, but it has to be done quickly, or the animation starts over. Many GF's will see me starting DF, and lunge into me. What ends up happening is they lunge right into my 3rd part, the animation, because I baited them.
There are many others I'm sure quite better then me at landing DF. But I am very, very good at it. It doesn't matter who you are, or what class you play, if you fight me 1 vs 1, you WILL get hit by DF eventually. But knowing what to look for, is only going to help you. Every single smart PvP'r avoids DF at all costs, even GWF's in unstoppable.
Heres a video of me doing some random pvp. I recommend watching atleast some of it, so you can see what it looks like from my end, when I'm setting up DF on someone. I don't fight any GF's in this video, but I use DF ALOT, and have many 1 vs 2+ fights, where you can see me setting up DF on 1 person, then hitting another squishier target with the animation part. This is one of my favorite videos, hope you enjoy it!
This is really good stuff, thank you! My biggest pvp weakness is exactly that I don't know the other classes well. Being a ****, I chose gf as my firs class because it really seems like the simplest class to play while also making an impact on what your party is trying to accomplish- you get into trouble you just go into guard. In pvp the only class I am really wary of is cw because as a gf, you are only really risking death when you are proned. Otherwise, yes many attacks eat right through guard, utterly breaking it, but better a shredded guard than a shredded toon. So guard goes down and then a few seconds it is full again. The idea is to try and time it so your main cd's are happening while guard is up, and you have a full rotation of all your encounters when guard finally breaks.
Thanks again for infos and entertaining/informative video!
This is really good stuff, thank you! My biggest pvp weakness is exactly that I don't know the other classes well. Being a ****, I chose gf as my firs class because it really seems like the simplest class to play while also making an impact on what your party is trying to accomplish- you get into trouble you just go into guard. In pvp the only class I am really wary of is cw because as a gf, you are only really risking death when you are proned. Otherwise, yes many attacks eat right through guard, utterly breaking it, but better a shredded guard than a shredded toon. So guard goes down and then a few seconds it is full again. The idea is to try and time it so your main cd's are happening while guard is up, and you have a full rotation of all your encounters when guard finally breaks.
Thanks again for infos and entertaining/informative video!
How do you change encounters quickly in the middle of a battle? You have to open up the powers screen, scroll down, search for the encounter you want, drag it to the slot you want, that whole process probably takes 5-10 seconds. And then of course wait for the cooldown period afterwards.
How do you change encounters quickly in the middle of a battle? You have to open up the powers screen, scroll down, search for the encounter you want, drag it to the slot you want, that whole process probably takes 5-10 seconds.
You may have misunderstood me.
I don't mean switching out literally "in combat".
I just mean knowing your way around your character sheet etc, and being able to quickly drag n drop new abilities you may need in a timely manner.
For example; I'm being chased by a Perma TR to a node of theirs I'm about to cap. I want to switch impact out for PoB, so knowing where that ability is on my character sheet, and being able to slot it quickly, as obviously there will be a CD on it when slotting initially.
This.
I look at it as a challenge. Am I doomed to lose the actual match? Sure. But you can bet that I am going to try and learn something from the experience.
The only things I have ever learned from playing in a pug against a premade were private messages with a few of the players during and after the match. But I got absolutely nothing out of the match itself. What exactly do you learn when you are repeatedly one-shotted by elite players in BIS gear? No really, people keep saying "oh you learn so much by playing against premades". Tell me what exactly did you learn *from the match itself* when you kept dying over and over again. And not just merely dying after a lengthy battle, but dying after a 5-second 1v1 "battle", when the TR lashing blades + 3 impact shots kill you instantly, or the GF prones & kills you instantly, or the CW entangles & debuffs you and you die instantly.
Case in point: I actually did face Alysin Chains once in a match. Only once. Because the battle went something like this:
Me: running up to a point
Alysin Chains: stealth, lashing blade, impact shot
Me: dead
And that was that. It took less than 5 seconds. I *maybe* got a Magic Missile off. I learned absolutely zero from it.
But I got absolutely nothing out of the match itself. What exactly do you learn when you are repeatedly one-shotted by elite players in BIS gear?
Nothing at all. If someone tells you otherwise, it means that he runs in PMs mostly. Maybe you can learn a thing or two by watching someone good (not nescessarily one with a P.Vorpal and R10s) playing against random groups, where he has to work a bit in order to make a difference.
The only things I have ever learned from playing in a pug against a premade were private messages with a few of the players during and after the match. But I got absolutely nothing out of the match itself. What exactly do you learn when you are repeatedly one-shotted by elite players in BIS gear? No really, people keep saying "oh you learn so much by playing against premades". Tell me what exactly did you learn *from the match itself* when you kept dying over and over again. And not just merely dying after a lengthy battle, but dying after a 5-second 1v1 "battle", when the TR lashing blades + 3 impact shots kill you instantly, or the GF prones & kills you instantly, or the CW entangles & debuffs you and you die instantly.
Case in point: I actually did face Alysin Chains once in a match. Only once. Because the battle went something like this:
Me: running up to a point
Alysin Chains: stealth, lashing blade, impact shot
Me: dead
And that was that. It took less than 5 seconds. I *maybe* got a Magic Missile off. I learned absolutely zero from it.
You need to think Outside of the Box my friend.
You see that as learning nothing.
If I was you, playing against me in that particular scenario.
This is what I would have gotten out of it.
1. I should have Shield on Tab, as next time, if Alysin wants to Lashing me off the bat, will almost completely negate all his damage, leaving him open for CC, and damage.
2. I am getting 3 shot. I am now going to take a look at my gear, and do what I can to increase my survivability. I need to increase my defenses, or I need to rework my abilities to snuff out TR's. Shield on Tab, CoI, Steal Time, Icy Terrain, Oppressive Force, etc.
Guys. Gear absolutely makes a difference. But don't take that the wrong way. Just because someone has perfect enchants, and rank 10's, absolutely does NOT make them god mode.
Its getting a little old getting tells from people saying, "Oh, you only won because of your gear". So, lately I've been playing naked. Around a 6k GS with just my weapons. Do I die more? Yah. But, I am still crushing people that aren't set up properly, and are lesser skilled in PvP. Why? Because Skill Matters.
When I am constantly running into CW's who think its a good idea to Face Tank Duelist Flurry and apparently have lost their dodge button, do you really think gear is a factor?
My advice to you my friend: Increase your health to atleast 25k. Run with Shield on Tab, and increase your regen and deflect/defense the best you can. Your power, or crit, or ArP or whatever else you think you need as a stat doesn't matter..if like you said, you die in 5 seconds.
The guys spec'ing for pure damage do well generally, because they have very good gear, and for the most part a good amount of skill.
For a player that isn't geared as well, its easier for you to build yourself into a survival CW then it is for a Pure Cannon.
Lesser enchantments are cheap, and its easy nowadays to get rank 7's. There is absolutely no excuse to be lvl 60 and have a GS of 6k. I ran rank 4's and 5's with lesser enchants for a long time and did just fine.
You can only judge skill if you are facing similarly geared people. The difference in gear makes such a huge difference that a mediocre player with amazing gear can clearly come on top of an amazing player with mediocre gear. The thing is that if you see a guy with amazing gear, chances are that he will have PvP awareness and experience so he will give you the impression that he is amazing.
When I am constantly running into CW's who think its a good idea to Face Tank Duelist Flurry and apparently have lost their dodge button, do you really think gear is a factor?
You have to look at it from the CW point of view.
If I know a TR is around, I am always having to dodge, because I know your Lashing Blade is coming, I just don't know when or from where. So guess what, when you do finally appear and start beating on me, my stamina is gone. But if I am not always moving and dodging while you are stealthed, then I am a sitting duck for your Lashing Blade.
And yes I know people say that Lashing Blade is dodgeable, but I cannot do it. At least not reliably.
You can only judge skill if you are facing similarly geared people. The difference in gear makes such a huge difference that a mediocre player with amazing gear can clearly come on top of an amazing player with mediocre gear. The thing is that if you see a guy with amazing gear, chances are that he will have PvP awareness and experience so he will give you the impression that he is amazing.
You don't need perfects and rank 10's to be good. I don't have anywhere near best in slot, and I have crushed BiS players back to back to back in a single fight. I have obviously also been beaten by people with a lot lesser gear then I have.
Lessers and normals, rank 5's and 6's, absolutely have a chance against BiS players.
A full premade of BiS, skilled players against mediocre skilled and geared players in a pug? Obviously not ,and for good reason. Better skill, better team cohesion, battlefield awareness, better gear against pugs.
This is the first video I ever posted, it was on my 10k gs CW. Lesser weapon enchants and armor, rank 5's, not even close to built for PvP, and I did just fine. Gear is absolutely not the defining factor, its been proven at the top level.
Some people are always going to find a reason in PvP why they lost a fight because of their precious ego. Those people are never going to get any better because they never look at themselves. I've seen these people in every single mmo I have ever played back to my PvP days in EQ 1.
Everything in the original post seems so familiar for some reason XD
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Well I have to agree with pointsman and hidahayabusa. You want to learn about PvP? Read topics like these, ask in your class forums, PvP as much as you can. The longer your battles, the more balanced, the more you will learn.
The least amount of learning is done when you either one shot the other guys, or they one shot you.
So playing against premades is useless, besides the opportunity to meet good players, but they won't speak 99% of the cases and just plant near the spawn and wait to gank you if you drop like there's some world competition on kills made.
Don't get me wrong, I play with friends too (sometimes), but we ALWAYS offer 1 vs 1 when the match is done, and don't gank people at spawn, we have manners and play nice.
As for Alysin's advice, well... I'll counter:
- Shield on Mastery gimps you of the opportunity to actually burst a TR down. Good TRs have so much damage output and are not fools to go LB on your full purple shield, first diminish, then comes the IS/LB stuff
- Steal Time can easily be dodged, actually I tried this against TR friends and they dodged like 90% of my casts lol, so it's somewhere near useless. Oh. Let's not forget that each lame AoE you slot means less burst capability, which you NEED if you want to kill TRs. Now consider that not everyone has /g/p Vorpals, and they need that burst even more
-Icy Terrain is even worse than ST
- OF is amazing, if you have it ready Not sure if TRs can ITC through it, but GWFs can surely go unstoppable from what I saw
My advice?
If you REALLY want to perform in PvP, and you REALLY want to kill good TRS at least 50% of the times (nah, that won't be happening any times soon lol, but CWs can dream), you need:
- lots of HP, 30K sounds good
- defensive build that will gimp you for PvE badly
- 1100 regen or so shouldn't be amazingly hard with HV
And guess what? TR will still have the upper hand, but you will have more chances.
The true solution is dual spec, because few people want to just PvP and have the desire to stuck themselves in an underperforming PvE spec, especially considering how little PvP this game has to offer.
Also, about TRs.
Often it is mentioned that "TR is the counterclass to CW". Well, if there was a class in the game with 100% stealth detection, and 80% reduction of burst damage, I assume you would think it's balanced? Because yeah, it would be the "counterclass to TR".
We don't need any counterclasses in the game, we need all classes to be equally capable to deal with what comes their way. That means that with pro PvPers in equivalent gear, a class would statistically have 50% to kill any other class in 1 vs 1 situations. Simple as that.
Of course not. But you do need them, if you are facing other good players that have it. I also like to believe that skills is all that matters, but that's not the case. Repeating myself, but it seems that the message isn't that clear, so....
Skills will get you to top level PvP, gear will enable your staying up there.
Lessers and 5s+6s absolutely have a chance against BiS players, but have no chance against skilled BiS players.
I mean, I do like all the theorycrafting around best builds and all that, but really GWF Sentinel without 7 GTenes or TR Deflect/Regen without P.Vorpal are just not the same without those enchants. Used those two as examples, since I tend to see guides about them all the time.
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Good tips man, people really need to stay calm otherway it will become LoL toxic players.
For the OP: Alice in Chains rules
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
After playing a lot in full pugs, I'd say Alysin you should make a new version of this guide for the true beginner and rename this one "Semi-advanced PvP strategies".
The new guide should contain stuff like:
- do NOT "help" the person that caps alone a node while your team is getting HAMSTER at mid and enjoys points from their home
- psychological help for persons that have a fear of death, such as TRs wandering around enemy points without touching them just to wait for a squishy to come around or CWs that stay on heights above red points instead of contesting
- a detailed description of backcapping and why the hell you should ALWAYS do it, and no, the CW shouldn't be the guy that does it
- psychiatric help for persons that stay and fight 4 vs 1 a GWF while they have 2 bases lost
- some tips for DCs and why they should not leave mid (most of the times, but this isn't the section for "advanced" strats)
- why you should ALWAYS touch a point and NEVER leave them uncontested, regardless if you gonna die o not
IMO this guide is overwhelmingly advanced and sophisticate for the beginners. Please make one with HUGE, BOLD letters in various colors. Use simple wording. Basically water down and simplify your excellent guide so it can be understood by those that find understanding things... challenging.
I've seen these people in every single mmo I have ever played back to my PvP days in EQ 1
Goes back at least another half decade before that, to Ultima Online; tho you'd have to add "connection quality" to the list of winges used, as back then everybody was connected with modems. Being a LPB then was a serious advantage.
Personal (non-pvp-focused-player, and therefore hopefully somewhat objective) opinion/observation is that "skill vs. gear" conversations tend to be a bit misfocused and/or misleading. The (seemingly obvious?) answer, which many have mentioned so far, is that BOTH matter, but not necessarily equally, and that balance is what determines the flavor of pvp and each player's personal view of it.
So the real discussions about pvp "success" for different classes/in different games are about the relative balance between "skill" (including spec and ability selection, knowledge of mechanics, combos, etc.) and "gear" (bonuses, stats, and including available generic effects like enchants, procs, etc.), and the ramifications of where the "imba" ('leet skillz vs. p2w) tipping point seems to be.
And, to make it more complicated (and the discussion more fun), that balance between skill/gear ISN'T static... at some point, "skill" can degrade to common knowledge/cookie cutter builds, and shift the balance far toward the "gear" direction- basically, if it is possible to copy a "skill" type-item, and doesn't require much thought and/or manual dexterity to deliver the results, and it's improved by gear, then that is now a "gear" difference. The opposite is also true; if a "gear" difference can be successfully mitigated/negated purely by "skill"-type things (timing, knowledge, etc.), then the balance shifts the other direction...
Oh, and a wonderful resource for great ways to influence discussions like this (or call out people for doing it...). http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
Learn them, spot them, use them, call them out, whatever... don't go into "forum PVP" under-geared and ignorant tho.
Some good stuff guys, the gear vs skill discussion is usually one however that leads to flames and people becoming upset. Lets not take my thread down that road please
If you have anything you'd like to add to this guide that's well written, please do so, and I will happily add it to the main post with your name quoted on it.
After playing a lot in full pugs, I'd say Alysin you should make a new version of this guide for the true beginner and rename this one "Semi-advanced PvP strategies".
The new guide should contain stuff like:
- do NOT "help" the person that caps alone a node while your team is getting HAMSTER at mid and enjoys points from their home
- psychological help for persons that have a fear of death, such as TRs wandering around enemy points without touching them just to wait for a squishy to come around or CWs that stay on heights above red points instead of contesting
- a detailed description of backcapping and why the hell you should ALWAYS do it, and no, the CW shouldn't be the guy that does it
- psychiatric help for persons that stay and fight 4 vs 1 a GWF while they have 2 bases lost
- some tips for DCs and why they should not leave mid (most of the times, but this isn't the section for "advanced" strats)
- why you should ALWAYS touch a point and NEVER leave them uncontested, regardless if you gonna die o not
IMO this guide is overwhelmingly advanced and sophisticate for the beginners. Please make one with HUGE, BOLD letters in various colors. Use simple wording. Basically water down and simplify your excellent guide so it can be understood by those that find understanding things... challenging.
Just my suggestions
This x1000000.
I really think 75% of everyone who plays pugs doesn't get the idea that in nwo pvp it is all about as many nodes being blue for as long as possible. It kill me when people don't contest nodes.
It is all about time time time. The idea isn't 'just' to win fights but to buy your team enough time to capture/contest other nodes, to tie up as many of the other team for as long as possible. Note I said tie them up, make them spend time on you. Time is the key resource- spending it efficiently while forcing the opponent to spend it inefficiently will win matches imo. You can actually be terrible at playing your own toon in pvp but if you are smart about time management you can win. IMO this is how 'bad' teams can beat 'good' teams.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
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andferne3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 104Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
Not sure how useful this is, but a tactics I use myself from time to time when coming to contest a point from a Rogue. Keep in mind I am a Rogue myself, and all I do is PuG.
If you are coming up to the point and see a Rogue sitting there. Tease/pretend to come up the stairs (down the hallway) and the moment they click Stealth and vanish, turn around. Most of our Ranged attacks have short ranges and LoS-ing can be done easily enough. Let a few seconds pass and then turn back around to come contest the spot. A lot of Rogue's will be popping out of stealth at this time due to it's duration extending.
You do not have to leap head first into each fight.
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andferne3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 104Bounty Hunter
No really, people keep saying "oh you learn so much by playing against premades". Tell me what exactly did you learn *from the match itself*
Someone else already touched on this with a very good response. I would like to add something from my own viewpoint. Not just against a Pre-made, but against any skilled opponent I come across in matches.
First I learn their rotation. What powers they are using, and in which order they do. Even a lot of Rogue's make the same movements while in stealth. Heading to certain corners, LoS-ing in specific areas. All of this gives me insight on what to expect on the next encounter. (And if they are the same class as me, strategies to try and use myself to improve my own game.) Another thing you learn is who is back capping, which person in their team is the squishiest, the toughest. This is all valuable information when wanting to make an attack. Focusing on the easiest kill target first helps thin the numbers.
This is all just scratching the surface on what you can learn from any loss. On the flip side of this you can learn from a win as well.
brave you dare to make a tutorial. i wouldn`t start it because there`s endless combinations possible where you need to go and what`s best for the team you play with.
playing on red circles and next to blue circles and on challenged circles is the most obvious and simple thing
but even that has multiple possibilities with ranged anoying melees in a circle from top.
i actualy mis bouncing off others and dance around the pillar.
dance around the pillar can be so succesfull ;p
if they re stupid enough to stay.
brave you dare to make a tutorial. i wouldn`t start it because there`s endless combinations
Yah I agree. But that's why I labeled it for Beginners. PvP is constantly changing by the second while in a match. I made the thread to give a beginning insight on the goals you should have while in PvP if you want to win, and a fiew common ways of doing it.
You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink =P
made a small poledance vid, i give it a 6,5 myself.
didn`t do that stuf for a long time.
especialy usefull while leveling and everyone stays away and try to hold the other 2 nodes.
also 4 was a bit too much.
youtube link
it`s bad quality, don`t know why, it just uploaded that way.
made a small poledance vid, i give it a 6,5 myself.
didn`t do that stuf for a long time.
especialy usefull while leveling and everyone stays away and try to hold the other 2 nodes.
also 4 was a bit too much.
youtube link
it`s bad quality, don`t know why, it just uploaded that way.
Comments
I think your right. With GF, imo, there are some key powers that you simply want slotted all the time. I always keep lunging strike and front line surge up and tend to switch out (r) between whatever heavy damage encounter is best at the time- usually knee break (a high damage, dot, control power) or anvil of doom. So a gap closer, an area of affect high damage control power, and a single target very high damage power. 3 shot the cw, guard up on the node against the others and contest till the rest of the party arrives lol.
Jugger Conq GF
....
I look at it as a challenge. Am I doomed to lose the actual match? Sure. But you can bet that I am going to try and learn something from the experience.
Its easy to be mediocre in PvP. Its not rocket science, we all know that. Smash some buttons, eventually you'll kill someone.
But being a skilled, good, or Elite PvP'r is something totally different, and honestly most people will never achieve that level of play, or even want to. It takes a lot of dedication and team work to be at the top, in any game. It also takes a lot of work, and testing. You can be the absolute best of the best omgroflcopter at your class, but if you don't also know the other class's, and their abilities as well, you are always going to start off on a disadvantage.
I've mentioned it many times in my past posts. A great place to start training yourself to become better at PvP, is watching videos of other people playing. All class's. Pugs and premades, and of course..a ton of PvP. That's the main reason I personally like to record videos, I have quite a fiew on my youtube that many of you have seen, but I have probably over a hundred more that I haven't posted. For one its fun for me, and I like to watch them. I'm not even close to perfect, but I get ALOT out of watching myself, and others PvP in videos. I see mistakes I make, and my enemies make, and I make corrections for it to the best of my ability.
I'm not special, or even close to the best, by any means, I don't have any super awesome secrets, I don't have a super special build, or gear. But I'm a smart PvP'r, and its all I do when I play. I like everything about PvP, I like doing it, and talking about it, and helping other people to get better at it. I get a lot of tells and pm's from other TR's actually kinda yelling at me for divulging some super secret they think should be kept quit. But there is no secrets, heh
If you play a Guardian Fighter. Duelist Flurry is a 3 part ability(at-will) -- 3 individual attacks, the third attack becoming the "Flurry" part. We attack extremely fast, are immune to all CC during this duration, as well as applying DoTs to whoever we are hitting. If we crit(and generally we always do), those dots are going to hit very hard. It absolutely shreds your Guard Meter.
Now, the mistakes that just about every single GF makes. Is using encounters while we are IN the animation. Absolutely do your best to prone us, or knock us back during the first 2. But do not use any encounters or at-wills when we are hitting you with the animation part, as its a waste for you, and now when the animation is done, we can just start the process all over again because you wasted your encounters and are a sitting duck now. 9-10 GF's I fight everyday, I generally don't even have to use 1 single encounter, or even use ITC. Because they see the fast damage, and immediately start wasting encounters.
If you don't get us proned or knocked back during the first two, you are screwed, you'll have to eat the damage, but immediately after is your best time to hit us, as it takes a pretty skillful TR to use the correct abilities to stay immune to your cc's, or at the very least dodge away in time, knowing you are about to prone us.
Setting up DF on you --You have to know what to look for here. A Duelist Flurry hit is a downward strike with our dagger. A Sly Flourish strike is a straight forward stabbing motion, and it moves us forward. DF and Sly flourish are completely different, and easy to spot. DF we don't move and we strike down. Sly flourish moves us, and we strike forward with the dagger.
That being said. We can cover a large amount of ground if we jump, while starting the 3 step process. So if you are fighting a TR, and you see him what feels like a good distance away, jumping and stabbing to the ground, that means hes setting up DF for you. Many things you can do here. My recommendation is to back away, and keep your distance. Remember, its a 3 part action, but it has to be done quickly, or the animation starts over. Many GF's will see me starting DF, and lunge into me. What ends up happening is they lunge right into my 3rd part, the animation, because I baited them.
There are many others I'm sure quite better then me at landing DF. But I am very, very good at it. It doesn't matter who you are, or what class you play, if you fight me 1 vs 1, you WILL get hit by DF eventually. But knowing what to look for, is only going to help you. Every single smart PvP'r avoids DF at all costs, even GWF's in unstoppable.
Heres a video of me doing some random pvp. I recommend watching atleast some of it, so you can see what it looks like from my end, when I'm setting up DF on someone. I don't fight any GF's in this video, but I use DF ALOT, and have many 1 vs 2+ fights, where you can see me setting up DF on 1 person, then hitting another squishier target with the animation part. This is one of my favorite videos, hope you enjoy it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hoqxav8lgSc
This is really good stuff, thank you! My biggest pvp weakness is exactly that I don't know the other classes well. Being a ****, I chose gf as my firs class because it really seems like the simplest class to play while also making an impact on what your party is trying to accomplish- you get into trouble you just go into guard. In pvp the only class I am really wary of is cw because as a gf, you are only really risking death when you are proned. Otherwise, yes many attacks eat right through guard, utterly breaking it, but better a shredded guard than a shredded toon. So guard goes down and then a few seconds it is full again. The idea is to try and time it so your main cd's are happening while guard is up, and you have a full rotation of all your encounters when guard finally breaks.
Thanks again for infos and entertaining/informative video!
Jugger Conq GF
....
Thx, glad you got something out of it!
You may have misunderstood me.
I don't mean switching out literally "in combat".
I just mean knowing your way around your character sheet etc, and being able to quickly drag n drop new abilities you may need in a timely manner.
For example; I'm being chased by a Perma TR to a node of theirs I'm about to cap. I want to switch impact out for PoB, so knowing where that ability is on my character sheet, and being able to slot it quickly, as obviously there will be a CD on it when slotting initially.
The only things I have ever learned from playing in a pug against a premade were private messages with a few of the players during and after the match. But I got absolutely nothing out of the match itself. What exactly do you learn when you are repeatedly one-shotted by elite players in BIS gear? No really, people keep saying "oh you learn so much by playing against premades". Tell me what exactly did you learn *from the match itself* when you kept dying over and over again. And not just merely dying after a lengthy battle, but dying after a 5-second 1v1 "battle", when the TR lashing blades + 3 impact shots kill you instantly, or the GF prones & kills you instantly, or the CW entangles & debuffs you and you die instantly.
Case in point: I actually did face Alysin Chains once in a match. Only once. Because the battle went something like this:
Me: running up to a point
Alysin Chains: stealth, lashing blade, impact shot
Me: dead
And that was that. It took less than 5 seconds. I *maybe* got a Magic Missile off. I learned absolutely zero from it.
Nothing at all. If someone tells you otherwise, it means that he runs in PMs mostly. Maybe you can learn a thing or two by watching someone good (not nescessarily one with a P.Vorpal and R10s) playing against random groups, where he has to work a bit in order to make a difference.
You need to think Outside of the Box my friend.
You see that as learning nothing.
If I was you, playing against me in that particular scenario.
This is what I would have gotten out of it.
1. I should have Shield on Tab, as next time, if Alysin wants to Lashing me off the bat, will almost completely negate all his damage, leaving him open for CC, and damage.
2. I am getting 3 shot. I am now going to take a look at my gear, and do what I can to increase my survivability. I need to increase my defenses, or I need to rework my abilities to snuff out TR's. Shield on Tab, CoI, Steal Time, Icy Terrain, Oppressive Force, etc.
Guys. Gear absolutely makes a difference. But don't take that the wrong way. Just because someone has perfect enchants, and rank 10's, absolutely does NOT make them god mode.
Its getting a little old getting tells from people saying, "Oh, you only won because of your gear". So, lately I've been playing naked. Around a 6k GS with just my weapons. Do I die more? Yah. But, I am still crushing people that aren't set up properly, and are lesser skilled in PvP. Why? Because Skill Matters.
When I am constantly running into CW's who think its a good idea to Face Tank Duelist Flurry and apparently have lost their dodge button, do you really think gear is a factor?
My advice to you my friend: Increase your health to atleast 25k. Run with Shield on Tab, and increase your regen and deflect/defense the best you can. Your power, or crit, or ArP or whatever else you think you need as a stat doesn't matter..if like you said, you die in 5 seconds.
The guys spec'ing for pure damage do well generally, because they have very good gear, and for the most part a good amount of skill.
For a player that isn't geared as well, its easier for you to build yourself into a survival CW then it is for a Pure Cannon.
Lesser enchantments are cheap, and its easy nowadays to get rank 7's. There is absolutely no excuse to be lvl 60 and have a GS of 6k. I ran rank 4's and 5's with lesser enchants for a long time and did just fine.
You have to look at it from the CW point of view.
If I know a TR is around, I am always having to dodge, because I know your Lashing Blade is coming, I just don't know when or from where. So guess what, when you do finally appear and start beating on me, my stamina is gone. But if I am not always moving and dodging while you are stealthed, then I am a sitting duck for your Lashing Blade.
And yes I know people say that Lashing Blade is dodgeable, but I cannot do it. At least not reliably.
You don't need perfects and rank 10's to be good. I don't have anywhere near best in slot, and I have crushed BiS players back to back to back in a single fight. I have obviously also been beaten by people with a lot lesser gear then I have.
Lessers and normals, rank 5's and 6's, absolutely have a chance against BiS players.
A full premade of BiS, skilled players against mediocre skilled and geared players in a pug? Obviously not ,and for good reason. Better skill, better team cohesion, battlefield awareness, better gear against pugs.
This is the first video I ever posted, it was on my 10k gs CW. Lesser weapon enchants and armor, rank 5's, not even close to built for PvP, and I did just fine. Gear is absolutely not the defining factor, its been proven at the top level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CddSC5-HKXg&feature=player_detailpage
Some people are always going to find a reason in PvP why they lost a fight because of their precious ego. Those people are never going to get any better because they never look at themselves. I've seen these people in every single mmo I have ever played back to my PvP days in EQ 1.
The least amount of learning is done when you either one shot the other guys, or they one shot you.
So playing against premades is useless, besides the opportunity to meet good players, but they won't speak 99% of the cases and just plant near the spawn and wait to gank you if you drop like there's some world competition on kills made.
Don't get me wrong, I play with friends too (sometimes), but we ALWAYS offer 1 vs 1 when the match is done, and don't gank people at spawn, we have manners and play nice.
As for Alysin's advice, well... I'll counter:
- Shield on Mastery gimps you of the opportunity to actually burst a TR down. Good TRs have so much damage output and are not fools to go LB on your full purple shield, first diminish, then comes the IS/LB stuff
- Steal Time can easily be dodged, actually I tried this against TR friends and they dodged like 90% of my casts lol, so it's somewhere near useless. Oh. Let's not forget that each lame AoE you slot means less burst capability, which you NEED if you want to kill TRs. Now consider that not everyone has /g/p Vorpals, and they need that burst even more
-Icy Terrain is even worse than ST
- OF is amazing, if you have it ready
My advice?
If you REALLY want to perform in PvP, and you REALLY want to kill good TRS at least 50% of the times (nah, that won't be happening any times soon lol, but CWs can dream), you need:
- lots of HP, 30K sounds good
- defensive build that will gimp you for PvE badly
- 1100 regen or so shouldn't be amazingly hard with HV
And guess what? TR will still have the upper hand, but you will have more chances.
The true solution is dual spec, because few people want to just PvP and have the desire to stuck themselves in an underperforming PvE spec, especially considering how little PvP this game has to offer.
Also, about TRs.
Often it is mentioned that "TR is the counterclass to CW". Well, if there was a class in the game with 100% stealth detection, and 80% reduction of burst damage, I assume you would think it's balanced? Because yeah, it would be the "counterclass to TR".
We don't need any counterclasses in the game, we need all classes to be equally capable to deal with what comes their way. That means that with pro PvPers in equivalent gear, a class would statistically have 50% to kill any other class in 1 vs 1 situations. Simple as that.
Of course not. But you do need them, if you are facing other good players that have it. I also like to believe that skills is all that matters, but that's not the case. Repeating myself, but it seems that the message isn't that clear, so....
Skills will get you to top level PvP, gear will enable your staying up there.
Lessers and 5s+6s absolutely have a chance against BiS players, but have no chance against skilled BiS players.
I mean, I do like all the theorycrafting around best builds and all that, but really GWF Sentinel without 7 GTenes or TR Deflect/Regen without P.Vorpal are just not the same without those enchants. Used those two as examples, since I tend to see guides about them all the time.
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For the OP: Alice in Chains rules
The new guide should contain stuff like:
- do NOT "help" the person that caps alone a node while your team is getting HAMSTER at mid and enjoys points from their home
- psychological help for persons that have a fear of death, such as TRs wandering around enemy points without touching them just to wait for a squishy to come around or CWs that stay on heights above red points instead of contesting
- a detailed description of backcapping and why the hell you should ALWAYS do it, and no, the CW shouldn't be the guy that does it
- psychiatric help for persons that stay and fight 4 vs 1 a GWF while they have 2 bases lost
- some tips for DCs and why they should not leave mid (most of the times, but this isn't the section for "advanced" strats)
- why you should ALWAYS touch a point and NEVER leave them uncontested, regardless if you gonna die o not
IMO this guide is overwhelmingly advanced and sophisticate for the beginners. Please make one with HUGE, BOLD letters in various colors. Use simple wording. Basically water down and simplify your excellent guide so it can be understood by those that find understanding things... challenging.
Just my suggestions
Personal (non-pvp-focused-player, and therefore hopefully somewhat objective) opinion/observation is that "skill vs. gear" conversations tend to be a bit misfocused and/or misleading. The (seemingly obvious?) answer, which many have mentioned so far, is that BOTH matter, but not necessarily equally, and that balance is what determines the flavor of pvp and each player's personal view of it.
So the real discussions about pvp "success" for different classes/in different games are about the relative balance between "skill" (including spec and ability selection, knowledge of mechanics, combos, etc.) and "gear" (bonuses, stats, and including available generic effects like enchants, procs, etc.), and the ramifications of where the "imba" ('leet skillz vs. p2w) tipping point seems to be.
And, to make it more complicated (and the discussion more fun), that balance between skill/gear ISN'T static... at some point, "skill" can degrade to common knowledge/cookie cutter builds, and shift the balance far toward the "gear" direction- basically, if it is possible to copy a "skill" type-item, and doesn't require much thought and/or manual dexterity to deliver the results, and it's improved by gear, then that is now a "gear" difference. The opposite is also true; if a "gear" difference can be successfully mitigated/negated purely by "skill"-type things (timing, knowledge, etc.), then the balance shifts the other direction...
Oh, and a wonderful resource for great ways to influence discussions like this (or call out people for doing it...). http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
Learn them, spot them, use them, call them out, whatever... don't go into "forum PVP" under-geared and ignorant tho.
If you have anything you'd like to add to this guide that's well written, please do so, and I will happily add it to the main post with your name quoted on it.
This x1000000.
I really think 75% of everyone who plays pugs doesn't get the idea that in nwo pvp it is all about as many nodes being blue for as long as possible. It kill me when people don't contest nodes.
It is all about time time time. The idea isn't 'just' to win fights but to buy your team enough time to capture/contest other nodes, to tie up as many of the other team for as long as possible. Note I said tie them up, make them spend time on you. Time is the key resource- spending it efficiently while forcing the opponent to spend it inefficiently will win matches imo. You can actually be terrible at playing your own toon in pvp but if you are smart about time management you can win. IMO this is how 'bad' teams can beat 'good' teams.
Jugger Conq GF
....
If you are coming up to the point and see a Rogue sitting there. Tease/pretend to come up the stairs (down the hallway) and the moment they click Stealth and vanish, turn around. Most of our Ranged attacks have short ranges and LoS-ing can be done easily enough. Let a few seconds pass and then turn back around to come contest the spot. A lot of Rogue's will be popping out of stealth at this time due to it's duration extending.
You do not have to leap head first into each fight.
First I learn their rotation. What powers they are using, and in which order they do. Even a lot of Rogue's make the same movements while in stealth. Heading to certain corners, LoS-ing in specific areas. All of this gives me insight on what to expect on the next encounter. (And if they are the same class as me, strategies to try and use myself to improve my own game.) Another thing you learn is who is back capping, which person in their team is the squishiest, the toughest. This is all valuable information when wanting to make an attack. Focusing on the easiest kill target first helps thin the numbers.
This is all just scratching the surface on what you can learn from any loss. On the flip side of this you can learn from a win as well.
playing on red circles and next to blue circles and on challenged circles is the most obvious and simple thing
but even that has multiple possibilities with ranged anoying melees in a circle from top.
i actualy mis bouncing off others and dance around the pillar.
dance around the pillar can be so succesfull ;p
if they re stupid enough to stay.
Yah I agree. But that's why I labeled it for Beginners. PvP is constantly changing by the second while in a match. I made the thread to give a beginning insight on the goals you should have while in PvP if you want to win, and a fiew common ways of doing it.
You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink =P
didn`t do that stuf for a long time.
especialy usefull while leveling and everyone stays away and try to hold the other 2 nodes.
also 4 was a bit too much.
youtube link
it`s bad quality, don`t know why, it just uploaded that way.
Not bad at all man