@goldheart. I am sure there are people that can easily prove my own theorycrafting wrong with numbers, but I go strictly off the "feel" so to speak of why I chose my stats, with a little bit of educated guessing.
I chose to go for a base of atleast 25% damage reduction. Because generally most people will have 20-25% ArP, so I wanted to build defense up to negate that.
I then stacked my deflect for PvP. Deflect is constant, you cant penetrate deflect, you cant debuff deflect, it just is. Which makes it so important.
From paying close attention to my own videos I have recorded(I use them for training tools for myself), and close attention while actually playing I have noticed a fiew things.
1. No matter how much defense you have, or deflect, when you are prone it "feels" like it is zero. I have hit 17K+ GF's with over 4k defense for well over 20k while proned.
2. Regen is the only thing that is truly a constant, whether you are prone or standing.
I lost a lot of ArP when I changed out my jewelry to add my def/deflect. I believe its at 5% or something in PvP and honestly, I haven't noticed a difference at all as far as damage. Generally because everyone is always debuffed anyway. But as a TR, I have a lot of 1 vs 1, 1 vs 2+ fights because I am capping/defending nodes, and even then..when they aren't debuffed, I still don't see a change in my damage, from when I had 25%ArP.
The hardest I have been hit since I stacked deflect/defense was just over 18k, by a CW with P-Vorpal. I cant stress enough how much I love this Deflect. It is very frustrating for other players trying to hit a high deflect /insert any class
If you are able to couple high deflect with regen..look out, that's a helluva defensive set up depending whose steering the toon.
I am very curious if any of you out there good with numbers can actually prove any of this.
1. Do defensive stats count for the same % when you are prone/entangled, as they do when not.(I don't think they do)
2. Does ArP go into the negative, and if so, is there a cap?
3. Does ArP actually calculate correctly like its supposed too. (a lot of stuff in this game doesn't match the numbers)
I'm really, really hoping the latter is purely a joke, since honestly, teabagging, trashtalking etc is about as far from good sportsmanship as it's possible to get. As soon as it becomes more about humiliating rather than winning, 'sportsmanship' is out the window.
Losing I can handle. Dying I can handle. Going up against premades I can handle (I'll lose, but again, I can handle that).
Dying and then having someone shout LOL UR ALL NOOBS HAHAHAHHA repeatedly while dancing around on their ribbon pig or similar? That makes me think about leaving or sitting it out in the spawn.
I generally don't say much, if anything in /zone. Other then talking with other friends who are playing in matches. If I do, do any trash talking, its in good taste with people I know personally.
I get called a cheater, hacker, p2w etc etc quite often, so generally I might tell those people to go f!ck themselves. That's about as far as I go into that. More often then not I have my combat log on my screen instead of chat anyway during PvP, so I miss most of the /zone drama.
Teabagging is hilarious!!! I cant count how many people have humped my poor little haflings dead body, and I find it absolutely hilarious every single time. If this makes you upset, you really need to lighten up buddy
You can apply this to neverwinter pvp by calculating the incoming score for every combination of bubbles {(grey grey grey) =0:0,(blue grey grey)=1:0,(blue grey red)=1:1, ....} Optimize for the highest ratios. This leads to a simple priority: do not let any bubble turn solid red.
I don't see how this is possible to achieve in a game like this, or even necessary. It makes sense when you have limited choices; Go A, go B etc. I spose we kinda have that, being 1, 2 and 3 for nodes. But gaining those points in itself has a billion different ways or possibilities. When you have guaranteed choices like tic tac toe, chess, checkers etc, this minimax fits. Not in this game though I'm afraid you are way over thinking things my friend.
Everyone is already doing this
>>>> Don't let the bad team cap points <<<<
We don't need an algorithm to understand that capping points is how you win.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Every person with lower GS asks these types of questions. But guess what, there will almost always be people with better gear. Last night we had a rough run against a premade. Guess who was solo-contesting a point against a Regen-Sent GWF stacked with 7 Greater Tenebrous? This 13.2k CW here. I died a lot, but capped the point and held it more than I expected to by running Repel, Shield, and Ice Storm. I view like this: This guy out-gears me. How can adapt and overcome?
No gear would level the playing field, but take away the desire to strive to make your character better. So many players run PVE to gear up for PVP. I sure do. And I love it. PVP is the most challenging aspect of this game and it's great fun.
I use a 13k GS TR and honestly agree that having the matchmaking system include gear score would be a good idea. Like having 9k+ GS in one bracket and 8.5k GS is a different bracket. Call the 9k+ GS PVP EPIC PVP for those who want to fight with team mates with GSs near there own against teams with similar GSs. Call the 8.5k GS just pvp. Honestly, it would be much rewarding fighting with pug teams that are similarly geared instead fighting with an undergeared pug team against a heavier geared pug team or fighting with a heavier geared pug team against an undergeared pug team.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I miss the old days of PvP honestly. EQ 1 was real f!cking PvP.
No rewards, no titles, nothing special at all. Only the pure satisfaction of f!cking someone else up in combat.
The PvP servers every single day, or atleast on Vallon Zek where I played, was a constant fight just about everywhere you went.
Guild raids on PvE, being invaded by the Prophets(myguild) for a giant guild vs guild battle, then killing them and killing there boss leaving there bodies laying spread out everywhere in the end boss's lair.
Spawn camping and griefing people complain about nowadays in games like we have is hilarious. Run your mouth back in the day and you got spawn CAMPED. You didn't get your corpse back when someone really wanted to camp you. You had to get friends to help, or eventually get help from a GM.
So many carebear attitudes it really disgusts me. These people don't like to PvP, they don't have the mindset for it. They want everything to be fair, and everyone has to be like me, and everyone should have the same gear, and his ability is too strong so nerf so I can be better at fighting them blah blah blah.. Makes me want to vomit listening to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like that
You can NEVER balance PvP. Human beings will adapt to anything and everything, in order to achieve victory.
You can nerf every single class completely to the ground to where we are running around purely naked using sticks to hit each other, and I f!cking guarantee, some f!cktard is going to make a thread about how OP CW's with there Stick Bash ability are, or TR's do 10 damage with there wooden splinter throwing ability....
You don't want to work for anything, you don't want to take advice when advice is given, you feel that you are entitled to victory....well...I <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in your general direction.......
Stop Q'ing for PvP....we are tired of listening to you
Adapt and overcome
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't see how this is possible to achieve in a game like this, or even necessary. It makes sense when you have limited choices; Go A, go B etc. I spose we kinda have that, being 1, 2 and 3 for nodes. But gaining those points in itself has a billion different ways or possibilities. When you have guaranteed choices like tic tac toe, chess, checkers etc, this minimax fits. Not in this game though I'm afraid you are way over thinking things my friend.
Everyone is already doing this
>>>> Don't let the bad team cap points <<<<
We don't need an algorithm to understand that capping points is how you win.
Agreed. PVP is not complicated. Do math all day long. Rush point, kill baddies, cap. Rinse and repeat.
Working as a team and communicating effectively go much farther than algorithms.
I never hear before for minimax and I read it. So minimax is just theory for kind of thinking you must adapt it for game that you play nothing more.
In one virtual world created from pure mathematic to said that you do not care about mathematic is a little wrong.
To play as team in one PVP battle is just one of sides on the game. Other side is game mechanic which one is pure mathematic.
Developers must calculate when and what will happen in one PVP battle, if there is something wrong then there will not have balance and someone will be strong than other one because bad calculating.
Yes I know that this can't be calculated at 100%. But when there is something wrong the developers must fix it.
I will add and this that I know what is good player and worst player, but this is other story. Because here we do not talk about this.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So many carebear attitudes it really disgusts me. These people don't like to PvP, they don't have the mindset for it. They want everything to be fair, and everyone has to be like me, and everyone should have the same gear, and his ability is too strong so nerf so I can be better at fighting them blah blah blah.. Makes me want to vomit listening to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like that
You can NEVER balance PvP. Human beings will adapt to anything and everything, in order to achieve victory.
You can nerf every single class completely to the ground to where we are running around purely naked using sticks to hit each other, and I f!cking guarantee, some f!cktard is going to make a thread about how OP CW's with there Stick Bash ability are, or TR's do 10 damage with there wooden splinter throwing ability....
You don't want to work for anything, you don't want to take advice when advice is given, you feel that you are entitled to victory....well...I <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in your general direction.......
Stop Q'ing for PvP....we are tired of listening to you
Adapt and overcome
I liked your first post an read attentively all the advice, but this obnoxious one seems to show what you're really made of. Fairness can be achieved and should be striven for. Camping and ganking and griefing are some of the worst <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> one can find online.
I personally liked most the WoW model in PvE servers, which have lots of PvP of course, but with some rules (for those who don't know):
- PvP is (mostly) organized and by choice, i.e. nobody can mess you up while you feel like questing on your low level, low gear toon. Exceptions are when you raid other faction towns to kill their leaders, which is great fun and will result in a nice mount (and title, I think) if you are successful.
- there are Arenas and Battlegrounds
- Arenas have matchmaking, ladders
- there is specific PvP gear with Resilience stat, which is needed to survive. This controls huge damage bursts and makes games longer and more balanced, since devs kinda know what players will wear in the PvP areas
- there are tiers of gear, Arenas have better one
- there are nice rewards for those who perform good in PvP, titles, mounts etc.
All of this results in a very refined sport-type of PvP with proper rewards, with constant balancing and all of it BY CHOICE, unlike the PvP servers where it's all in the wild. Matchmaking is not based on GS which is good, it's based on personal and team performance, so if you are a pro in not-so-good gear yet, you will advance in ladder because of your many wins and face people that are around your performing level.
I hope NWO evolves to this type of PvP, but my hopes are EXTREMELY slim. Until then, we enjoy 8000 GS vs perfect Vorpals matches, ultra fun.
I am very curious if any of you out there good with numbers can actually prove any of this.
1. Do defensive stats count for the same % when you are prone/entangled, as they do when not.(I don't think they do)
2. Does ArP go into the negative, and if so, is there a cap?
3. Does ArP actually calculate correctly like its supposed too. (a lot of stuff in this game doesn't match the numbers)
1. Yes they do, however GF's trample the fallen increases their damage against you when you're prone, and if CW is thaum then you have reduced defenses when they cast an arcane spell (entangle is arcane) on you. lol it's also still possible to deflect while CC'd, which is why GWF's are such monsters =P
2. ArP alone does not go into negative, however ArP is calculated first, so if you have an ability that reduces mitigation (only mitigation not defense) then if your ArP bring them to 0 the mitigation debuff will go negative.
3. ArP is calculated first, then defense reduction, then mitigation reduction, allowing squishier targets and even some more tanky to be brought into negatives with good debuffs. That being said I don't think TR has any way of achieving mitigation reduction, I believe wicked reminder is defense but even if it is mitigation that is a terrible skill to use in PvP =P. CW is definitely your friend as they can reduce mitigation by 55% defense by 55% and defense again by -1350 as a thaum spec with HV and GPF
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
1. Yes they do, however GF's trample the fallen increases their damage against you when you're prone, and if CW is thaum then you have reduced defenses when they cast an arcane spell (entangle is arcane) on you. lol it's also still possible to deflect while CC'd, which is why GWF's are such monsters =P
2. ArP alone does not go into negative, however ArP is calculated first, so if you have an ability that reduces mitigation (only mitigation not defense) then if your ArP bring them to 0 the mitigation debuff will go negative.
3. ArP is calculated first, then defense reduction, then mitigation reduction, allowing squishier targets and even some more tanky to be brought into negatives with good debuffs. That being said I don't think TR has any way of achieving mitigation reduction, I believe wicked reminder is defense but even if it is mitigation that is a terrible skill to use in PvP =P. CW is definitely your friend as they can reduce mitigation by 55% defense by 55% and defense again by -1350 as a thaum spec with HV and GPF
Thanks buddy!
It all makes sense when you lay it out. But I swear the numbers don't calculate to that. As I am hitting every single player, extremely hard when they are prone, class doesn't matter. GWF/GF tend to be a bit less, but tr, dc and cw's when they are prone, 9-10 times even at full health, they will not survive my dazing/lb combo. Even with rank 10's/perfects
I liked your first post an read attentively all the advice, but this obnoxious one seems to show what you're really made of. Fairness can be achieved and should be striven for. Camping and ganking and griefing are some of the worst <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> one can find online.
My frustration got the better of me yes. I am tired of listening to people complain about PvP when they aren't understanding all the factors involved, ie;gs vs gs vs enchants, vs skill etc etc. Instead of doing some research finding out why, and how they were hit so hard, or one shot, they make a whiny post on the forums asking to nerf everything under the sun to make themselves somehow more capable in PvP. When all along the problem lies within themselves.
I made a reference to EQ 1 because people understood for the most part all of these factors. You learned to deal with it and got better because of it.
I never camp anyone, or enter the camp fire. In our premades, seeings how 9-10 times they end up in utter destruction, we end up playing fairly, in 1 vs 1 fights, and we allow the other remaining members of the opposing team to cap a couple points so everyone gets glory.
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faiteaccompliiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2
edited September 2013
The reason people whine is they are Q'ing for pvp and have probably always played games where you Q for pvp, to really overcome pvp whinage syndrome people would have had to play games where pvp was a way of life and you learned to adapt and talk your way out of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Or you ran away or you got creative. Most people Q'ing up are people who just want a small daily doseage not hardcore.
I love the post and will be directing all the short bus newbs in my alts pvp matches here
@goldheart. I am sure there are people that can easily prove my own theorycrafting wrong with numbers, but I go strictly off the "feel" so to speak of why I chose my stats, with a little bit of educated guessing.
See i am sure that you test much things and you are right that in this game some numbers seems wrong. But as you know this is because cap of some stats which one we do not know well.
I am really disappointed from that developers do not said us this thing when in the same time they give to us way to put points where we want.
Yes there is some kind of "fun" to explore it.
I then stacked my deflect for PvP. Deflect is constant, you cant penetrate deflect, you cant debuff deflect, it just is. Which makes it so important.
Yes but deflect is just a chance to avoid some portion of damage (or I am in mistake ?). I really wonder how much % deflect you have. Because in this game if you want to rise one stat this can be only at the expense of other. So you sacrifice ArP for Deflect. After we do not know well how work ArP it is possible you to be right to do that.
1. No matter how much defense you have, or deflect, when you are prone it "feels" like it is zero. I have hit 17K+ GF's with over 4k defense for well over 20k while proned.
2. Regen is the only thing that is truly a constant, whether you are prone or standing.
OK, see Regen is good when the character have much from it and when character have enough HP.
If character can be killed for 3-7 sec how much he will regenerate ?
Regen is stat that is strongly specific. For Destroyer build which one have around 22k HP and can be killed with few hits or hit+crit, regen is useless. Destroyer must have a lot regen if he want to use it well, but for this he need to sacrifice something other e.g. damage which one is against his kind of build.
Regen is ok for Sentinel build or for GF(high def + enough HP), TR (coz he can run away in stealth), CW (because range and mobility) etc.
If Destroyer use Unstoppable to run far for regenerate he must have where to go because he cannot hide himself and he will be killed in most ways.
How much you will regenerate for 5 sec max 10 sec ? Is it enough to withstand an encounter attack?
Maybe for PVE is ok but not for PVP.
My frustration got the better of me yes. I am tired of listening to people complain about PvP when they aren't understanding all the factors involved, ie;gs vs gs vs enchants, vs skill etc etc. Instead of doing some research finding out why, and how they were hit so hard, or one shot, they make a whiny post on the forums asking to nerf everything under the sun to make themselves somehow more capable in PvP. When all along the problem lies within themselves.
I made a reference to EQ 1 because people understood for the most part all of these factors. You learned to deal with it and got better because of it.
I never camp anyone, or enter the camp fire. In our premades, seeings how 9-10 times they end up in utter destruction, we end up playing fairly, in 1 vs 1 fights, and we allow the other remaining members of the opposing team to cap a couple points so everyone gets glory.
I can understand frustration and I am taking back what I said
After the middle node is capped, 1 player will fall back to cap your home base, and the rest of the team will push to the enemies node.
Perfect guide except the point mentioned above (and I would advise you to change that, because it is a common mistake).
You are talking about fighting premades. It is important to stick to the rule "no more than 2 people on 1 or 3".
This will make sure that you ALWAYS outnumber the enemy on at least two points or, worst case scenario, it will be even.
When we ran against good premades and somehow managed to wipe on 2 with 4 or 5 people, we always pushed for 2 AND their base after that, thus getting the control over the battlefield back. Never try to protect your base from capping when you lost in the middle after start! Go cap 2 and send 1 Tank or DPS straight to their base! Retake your base when the middle is "contested". If you see a Sentinel on your base, send a Tank or Sentinel there, or someone who can kite, to keep the point contested. Try not to engage in 1 enemy vs. 2 of your team fights on 1 and 3. Keep in mind that at the same time, you are outnumbered on the other 2 points! Never let that happen!
Exception:
You have a DC in the middle. When you have 2 people fighting 2 people at 1, and 2 people fighting 3 people at 3 and you know for sure that you do not expect any enemy to spawn, the DC can decide where he wants to help (at 1 or at 3). But you never EVER go with 3 DPS/Tanks to 1 or 3. This will outbalance the situation leading to the other 2 points capped by the people you just killed.
So, in your case, Alysin:
After taking the middle, max. 2 people go take the enemy base. By the speed of capping, you can say if there are 1 or 2 or more. If it is just 1, only 1 goes to cap it.
Well, that's my opinion on it based on my experience. I still prefer, as mentioned by Alysin in his post, just placing a good Sentinel on the enemy point.
Hi! Are you going to premade against LS on PTR this Saturday?
I am going to do my best too!
I work in the oil industry and I haven't had a day off in 46 days. I am able to play depending on the specific job I am on, but I am using my 4g phone for connection. So even when I play I often suffer from some serious latency because I am out in the middle of nowhere with little to no service sometimes.
If I am able to have a day off Saturday(which I don't think possible), I will definitely be there with bells on enjoying the fun win or lose!
If not, we have very capable very skilled TR's in my guild that are better than I am that I hope to see go
Whether I make it Saturday or not, eventually I will have some time off and I will definitely be getting a guild team together to play whoever wants to on the Test Shard, as its very easy to do so.
I love love love competitive PvP, and I cant wait for the servers to merge. I know they talked about it, but I hope it happens sooner than later
Perfect guide except the point mentioned above (and I would advise you to change that, because it is a common mistake).
You are talking about fighting premades. It is important to stick to the rule "no more than 2 people on 1 or 3".
This will make sure that you ALWAYS outnumber the enemy on at least two points or, worst case scenario, it will be even.
When we ran against good premades and somehow managed to wipe on 2 with 4 or 5 people, we always pushed for 2 AND their base after that, thus getting the control over the battlefield back. Never try to protect your base from capping when you lost in the middle after start! Go cap 2 and send 1 Tank or DPS straight to their base!
Exception:
You have a DC in the middle. When you have 2 people fighting 2 people at 1, and 2 people fighting 3 people at 3 and you know for sure that you do not expect any enemy to spawn, the DC can decide where he wants to help (at 1 or at 3). But you never EVER go with 3 DPS/Tanks to 1 or 3. This will outbalance the situation leading to the other 2 points capped by the people you just killed.
So, in your case, Alysin:
After taking the middle, max. 2 people go take the enemy base. By the speed of capping, you can say if there are 1 or 2 or more. If it is just 1, only 1 goes to cap it.
Well, that's my opinion on it based on my experience. I still prefer, as mentioned by Alysin in his post, just placing a good Sentinel on the enemy point.
Excellent reply. I 100% agree.
As I said depending on how the match plays out, we are always changing up our strats.
100% of the time, we rush middle to gain advantage, then push to there home base(generally with 2, like you mentioned), against premades.
As all premades are not good ones, sometimes we chose to send 1 capable party member to cap there home base, if the team is foolish and continues to send there entire team to 2.
Again, a good team that plays well and coordinates with each other will be constantly talking throughout the match, and changing up tactics depending on who needs help where, or which point at that specific moment is in dire need of capping/defending.
See i am sure that you test much things and you are right that in this game some numbers seems wrong. But as you know this is because cap of some stats which one we do not know well.
I am really disappointed from that developers do not said us this thing when in the same time they give to us way to put points where we want.
Yes there is some kind of "fun" to explore it.
Yes but deflect is just a chance to avoid some portion of damage (or I am in mistake ?). I really wonder how much % deflect you have. Because in this game if you want to rise one stat this can be only at the expense of other. So you sacrifice ArP for Deflect. After we do not know well how work ArP it is possible you to be right to do that.
This sound good.
OK, see Regen is good when the character have much from it and when character have enough HP.
If character can be killed for 3-7 sec how much he will regenerate ?
Regen is stat that is strongly specific. For Destroyer build which one have around 22k HP and can be killed with few hits or hit+crit, regen is useless. Destroyer must have a lot regen if he want to use it well, but for this he need to sacrifice something other e.g. damage which one is against his kind of build.
Regen is ok for Sentinel build or for GF(high def + enough HP), TR (coz he can run away in stealth), CW (because range and mobility) etc.
If Destroyer use Unstoppable to run far for regenerate he must have where to go because he cannot hide himself and he will be killed in most ways.
How much you will regenerate for 5 sec max 10 sec ? Is it enough to withstand an encounter attack?
Maybe for PVE is ok but not for PVP.
I am curious about this too
Yes. Deflect is a % chance.
I am sitting at just over 41% deflect, and 27% damage reduction. With my deflect this high, its very common for me to see 2k Lashing blade hits from lesser geared players, and under 10k from Greater/Perfect Vorpal users. That's not to say I don't ever get hit hard because I do, but its rare. I get hit the hardest when I am CC'd/Prone.
The only thing I sacrificed by stacking my defenses, was ArP the most, and small crit and power. My crit is still over 50% chance, and my power is just under 5k. My ArP is only 5%(off the top of my head), which is terrible, but as I've stated before, I haven't noticed one single encounter where I was like "****, wish I had more arp"! I believe that is because for the most part everyone is debuffed at some point while I am fighting them. However, even while capping/defending nodes, and I know for sure the person isn't debuffed, I still haven't noticed a decrease in my damage out put. Whether that is because I am using a greater vorpal, or they have low defensive stats I don't know, lots of factors involved that I'm not sure I could ever pinpoint for sure.
As far as Regen. I mentioned it being one of the most important because of its consistency. It cannot be changed no matter what kind of debuffs a person might have on them. That being said, on my character I have 0 regeneration. But I have high deflect/defense so it allows me to survive longer, and generally run away if I need to. Regen would be great for me, but I am not going to sacrifice my deflect/defense, or my crit/power to gain regen. Would it be better for me? Maybe, but because of my playstyle, I enjoy my character very much as she sits right now, and don't plan on changing her set up in the future.
With regen, if a player is going to have it(from what I've seen from well built players I know), they are stacking it to atleast 1,000. I've seen higher, but from what I've heard just over 1000 is going to give you great results, without sacrificing too much of another stat..depending on the class/build.
I have a doubt, In Hotenow Domination, there's that bridge on top of point 2. Does standing there count as standing on the base?
No
The Node is surrounded by a perfect grey/silverfish circle. A player must be physically standing on any part of the circle in order to put the Node in Contention.
41% sound good. So I will try it in future. Thanks
Keep in mind. I play a hafling, and have a 3% racial bonus to deflect. I also slot Infiltrator feat for 1%. On all my defensive slots, I slotted Azure for defense to gain 27%, and Silvery Rank 8's for deflection. Thankfully, Rank 8 silvery enchants are fairly inexpensive on my server.
After 36%, for me anyway..it was very difficult to raise my %. I don't feel that it scales badly persay, it just takes a lot more Deflect, in order to raise your % after 36. I'm sure some people may be able to verify this to exact numbers as far as % goes, but I just used trial and error.
Ok I'm sorry to point this out but I just noticed some things in your signature screenshot.
So your entire team obviously slaughtered them in kills, not even close to a contest, outright crushed them. But then I see that the enemy team won the game. So you obviously allowed them to cap points and kept the game going as long as possible while simply farming kills to get a high score. Not to say that you or your team didn't do well, but your score is quite misleading =P
I only even say anything b/c there are so many forum complainers that look at posts where TR's top the kills and cry for nerf...
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Ok I'm sorry to point this out but I just noticed some things in your signature screenshot.
So your entire team obviously slaughtered them in kills, not even close to a contest, outright crushed them. But then I see that the enemy team won the game. So you obviously allowed them to cap points and kept the game going as long as possible while simply farming kills to get a high score. Not to say that you or your team didn't do well, but your score is quite misleading =P
I only even say anything b/c there are so many forum complainers that look at posts where TR's top the kills and cry for nerf...
Yah. I've said before that we lost that match.
Its a perfect example where 1 person cannot possibly win a match by themselves no matter how well they do.
I was doing my best to cap points by myself, but my entire team was fighting a GF on our node the whole fight
I am very curious if any of you out there good with numbers can actually prove any of this.
1. Do defensive stats count for the same % when you are prone/entangled, as they do when not.(I don't think they do)
2. Does ArP go into the negative, and if so, is there a cap?
3. Does ArP actually calculate correctly like its supposed too. (a lot of stuff in this game doesn't match the numbers)
1) Any % damage resistance, as well as the one, providied by defense, count as usual. Deflect = 0, when u are stunned, prone, frozen (not sure about dazed, though). On top of that, your deflect also = 0, when u attacked by a foe, who's having combat advantage against you (read: 90% of CWs and TRs).
Thus, this is a mistake:
I then stacked my deflect for PvP. Deflect is constant, you cant penetrate deflect, you cant debuff deflect, it just is. Which makes it so important.
Edit: well, not like a mistake, ofc, more like a misbelief - deflect is still cool on TR, since u guys naturally having high DEX, but still, deflect is relatively easy to avoid.
2) Ar Pen doesnt bring a target into negatives - 0% max. Lets say, u have 25% armor pen. and your target has 18% damage resistance - result will be 0%, not -7%.
Thus, this is a huge mistake:
I chose to go for a base of atleast 25% damage reduction. Because generally most people will have 20-25% ArP, so I wanted to build defense up to negate that.
Note: debuffs like High Vizier x4 set bonus, or RoE can actually bring you into negative damage resistance.
Hi, Tiah - Alexis and I had fun squaring off against you and Aja the other night!
And yes, there are a lot of misconceptions about the way stats work, especially Armor Pen. It's a worthy goal to get everyone to understand the mechanics as much as possible. Really helps to cut down on baseless calls for nerfs and also to identify "balancing" that's really helpful to the game.
Question though. What do you mean when you say Deflect is "easy to avoid"?
In my understanding of how Deflect works.
I have a 41% Chance to deflect.
My Damage avoided when I do successfully deflect is 25%.
So, 41% of the time, I take 25% less damage.
Which brings me to my next question.
I have 27% damage resistance. So lets say that I am not debuffed at all. I successfully evade an attack, taking 25% less damage + 27% damage resistance =52%. So instead of taking a 15k crit, I would take a 7,350k crit instead. Is this correct how I am figuring the numbers?
Hi, Tiah - Alexis and I had fun squaring off against you and Aja the other night!
And yes, there are a lot of misconceptions about the way stats work, especially Armor Pen. It's a worthy goal to get everyone to understand the mechanics as much as possible. Really helps to cut down on baseless calls for nerfs and also to identify "balancing" that's really helpful to the game.
For sure!
Cant remember if it was the good match or the bad one, heh. We had one that was terrible, no team cohesion and we lost. The rest were all pretty decent =P
Comments
I chose to go for a base of atleast 25% damage reduction. Because generally most people will have 20-25% ArP, so I wanted to build defense up to negate that.
I then stacked my deflect for PvP. Deflect is constant, you cant penetrate deflect, you cant debuff deflect, it just is. Which makes it so important.
From paying close attention to my own videos I have recorded(I use them for training tools for myself), and close attention while actually playing I have noticed a fiew things.
1. No matter how much defense you have, or deflect, when you are prone it "feels" like it is zero. I have hit 17K+ GF's with over 4k defense for well over 20k while proned.
2. Regen is the only thing that is truly a constant, whether you are prone or standing.
I lost a lot of ArP when I changed out my jewelry to add my def/deflect. I believe its at 5% or something in PvP and honestly, I haven't noticed a difference at all as far as damage. Generally because everyone is always debuffed anyway. But as a TR, I have a lot of 1 vs 1, 1 vs 2+ fights because I am capping/defending nodes, and even then..when they aren't debuffed, I still don't see a change in my damage, from when I had 25%ArP.
The hardest I have been hit since I stacked deflect/defense was just over 18k, by a CW with P-Vorpal. I cant stress enough how much I love this Deflect. It is very frustrating for other players trying to hit a high deflect /insert any class
If you are able to couple high deflect with regen..look out, that's a helluva defensive set up depending whose steering the toon.
I am very curious if any of you out there good with numbers can actually prove any of this.
1. Do defensive stats count for the same % when you are prone/entangled, as they do when not.(I don't think they do)
2. Does ArP go into the negative, and if so, is there a cap?
3. Does ArP actually calculate correctly like its supposed too. (a lot of stuff in this game doesn't match the numbers)
I generally don't say much, if anything in /zone. Other then talking with other friends who are playing in matches. If I do, do any trash talking, its in good taste with people I know personally.
I get called a cheater, hacker, p2w etc etc quite often, so generally I might tell those people to go f!ck themselves. That's about as far as I go into that. More often then not I have my combat log on my screen instead of chat anyway during PvP, so I miss most of the /zone drama.
Teabagging is hilarious!!! I cant count how many people have humped my poor little haflings dead body, and I find it absolutely hilarious every single time. If this makes you upset, you really need to lighten up buddy
I don't see how this is possible to achieve in a game like this, or even necessary. It makes sense when you have limited choices; Go A, go B etc. I spose we kinda have that, being 1, 2 and 3 for nodes. But gaining those points in itself has a billion different ways or possibilities. When you have guaranteed choices like tic tac toe, chess, checkers etc, this minimax fits. Not in this game though I'm afraid you are way over thinking things my friend.
Everyone is already doing this
>>>> Don't let the bad team cap points <<<<
We don't need an algorithm to understand that capping points is how you win.
I use a 13k GS TR and honestly agree that having the matchmaking system include gear score would be a good idea. Like having 9k+ GS in one bracket and 8.5k GS is a different bracket. Call the 9k+ GS PVP EPIC PVP for those who want to fight with team mates with GSs near there own against teams with similar GSs. Call the 8.5k GS just pvp. Honestly, it would be much rewarding fighting with pug teams that are similarly geared instead fighting with an undergeared pug team against a heavier geared pug team or fighting with a heavier geared pug team against an undergeared pug team.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
No rewards, no titles, nothing special at all. Only the pure satisfaction of f!cking someone else up in combat.
The PvP servers every single day, or atleast on Vallon Zek where I played, was a constant fight just about everywhere you went.
Guild raids on PvE, being invaded by the Prophets(myguild) for a giant guild vs guild battle, then killing them and killing there boss leaving there bodies laying spread out everywhere in the end boss's lair.
Spawn camping and griefing people complain about nowadays in games like we have is hilarious. Run your mouth back in the day and you got spawn CAMPED. You didn't get your corpse back when someone really wanted to camp you. You had to get friends to help, or eventually get help from a GM.
So many carebear attitudes it really disgusts me. These people don't like to PvP, they don't have the mindset for it. They want everything to be fair, and everyone has to be like me, and everyone should have the same gear, and his ability is too strong so nerf so I can be better at fighting them blah blah blah.. Makes me want to vomit listening to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like that
You can NEVER balance PvP. Human beings will adapt to anything and everything, in order to achieve victory.
You can nerf every single class completely to the ground to where we are running around purely naked using sticks to hit each other, and I f!cking guarantee, some f!cktard is going to make a thread about how OP CW's with there Stick Bash ability are, or TR's do 10 damage with there wooden splinter throwing ability....
You don't want to work for anything, you don't want to take advice when advice is given, you feel that you are entitled to victory....well...I <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in your general direction.......
Stop Q'ing for PvP....we are tired of listening to you
Adapt and overcome
Agreed. PVP is not complicated. Do math all day long. Rush point, kill baddies, cap. Rinse and repeat.
Working as a team and communicating effectively go much farther than algorithms.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
In one virtual world created from pure mathematic to said that you do not care about mathematic is a little wrong.
To play as team in one PVP battle is just one of sides on the game. Other side is game mechanic which one is pure mathematic.
Developers must calculate when and what will happen in one PVP battle, if there is something wrong then there will not have balance and someone will be strong than other one because bad calculating.
Yes I know that this can't be calculated at 100%. But when there is something wrong the developers must fix it.
I will add and this that I know what is good player and worst player, but this is other story. Because here we do not talk about this.
I liked your first post an read attentively all the advice, but this obnoxious one seems to show what you're really made of. Fairness can be achieved and should be striven for. Camping and ganking and griefing are some of the worst <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> one can find online.
I personally liked most the WoW model in PvE servers, which have lots of PvP of course, but with some rules (for those who don't know):
- PvP is (mostly) organized and by choice, i.e. nobody can mess you up while you feel like questing on your low level, low gear toon. Exceptions are when you raid other faction towns to kill their leaders, which is great fun and will result in a nice mount (and title, I think) if you are successful.
- there are Arenas and Battlegrounds
- Arenas have matchmaking, ladders
- there is specific PvP gear with Resilience stat, which is needed to survive. This controls huge damage bursts and makes games longer and more balanced, since devs kinda know what players will wear in the PvP areas
- there are tiers of gear, Arenas have better one
- there are nice rewards for those who perform good in PvP, titles, mounts etc.
All of this results in a very refined sport-type of PvP with proper rewards, with constant balancing and all of it BY CHOICE, unlike the PvP servers where it's all in the wild. Matchmaking is not based on GS which is good, it's based on personal and team performance, so if you are a pro in not-so-good gear yet, you will advance in ladder because of your many wins and face people that are around your performing level.
I hope NWO evolves to this type of PvP, but my hopes are EXTREMELY slim. Until then, we enjoy 8000 GS vs perfect Vorpals matches, ultra fun.
1. Yes they do, however GF's trample the fallen increases their damage against you when you're prone, and if CW is thaum then you have reduced defenses when they cast an arcane spell (entangle is arcane) on you. lol it's also still possible to deflect while CC'd, which is why GWF's are such monsters =P
2. ArP alone does not go into negative, however ArP is calculated first, so if you have an ability that reduces mitigation (only mitigation not defense) then if your ArP bring them to 0 the mitigation debuff will go negative.
3. ArP is calculated first, then defense reduction, then mitigation reduction, allowing squishier targets and even some more tanky to be brought into negatives with good debuffs. That being said I don't think TR has any way of achieving mitigation reduction, I believe wicked reminder is defense but even if it is mitigation that is a terrible skill to use in PvP =P. CW is definitely your friend as they can reduce mitigation by 55% defense by 55% and defense again by -1350 as a thaum spec with HV and GPF
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Thanks buddy!
It all makes sense when you lay it out. But I swear the numbers don't calculate to that. As I am hitting every single player, extremely hard when they are prone, class doesn't matter. GWF/GF tend to be a bit less, but tr, dc and cw's when they are prone, 9-10 times even at full health, they will not survive my dazing/lb combo. Even with rank 10's/perfects
My frustration got the better of me yes. I am tired of listening to people complain about PvP when they aren't understanding all the factors involved, ie;gs vs gs vs enchants, vs skill etc etc. Instead of doing some research finding out why, and how they were hit so hard, or one shot, they make a whiny post on the forums asking to nerf everything under the sun to make themselves somehow more capable in PvP. When all along the problem lies within themselves.
I made a reference to EQ 1 because people understood for the most part all of these factors. You learned to deal with it and got better because of it.
I never camp anyone, or enter the camp fire. In our premades, seeings how 9-10 times they end up in utter destruction, we end up playing fairly, in 1 vs 1 fights, and we allow the other remaining members of the opposing team to cap a couple points so everyone gets glory.
I love the post and will be directing all the short bus newbs in my alts pvp matches here
I am really disappointed from that developers do not said us this thing when in the same time they give to us way to put points where we want.
Yes there is some kind of "fun" to explore it.
Yes but deflect is just a chance to avoid some portion of damage (or I am in mistake ?). I really wonder how much % deflect you have. Because in this game if you want to rise one stat this can be only at the expense of other. So you sacrifice ArP for Deflect. After we do not know well how work ArP it is possible you to be right to do that.
This sound good.
OK, see Regen is good when the character have much from it and when character have enough HP.
If character can be killed for 3-7 sec how much he will regenerate ?
Regen is stat that is strongly specific. For Destroyer build which one have around 22k HP and can be killed with few hits or hit+crit, regen is useless. Destroyer must have a lot regen if he want to use it well, but for this he need to sacrifice something other e.g. damage which one is against his kind of build.
Regen is ok for Sentinel build or for GF(high def + enough HP), TR (coz he can run away in stealth), CW (because range and mobility) etc.
If Destroyer use Unstoppable to run far for regenerate he must have where to go because he cannot hide himself and he will be killed in most ways.
How much you will regenerate for 5 sec max 10 sec ? Is it enough to withstand an encounter attack?
Maybe for PVE is ok but not for PVP.
I am curious about this too
I can understand frustration and I am taking back what I said
Perfect guide except the point mentioned above (and I would advise you to change that, because it is a common mistake).
You are talking about fighting premades. It is important to stick to the rule "no more than 2 people on 1 or 3".
This will make sure that you ALWAYS outnumber the enemy on at least two points or, worst case scenario, it will be even.
When we ran against good premades and somehow managed to wipe on 2 with 4 or 5 people, we always pushed for 2 AND their base after that, thus getting the control over the battlefield back. Never try to protect your base from capping when you lost in the middle after start! Go cap 2 and send 1 Tank or DPS straight to their base! Retake your base when the middle is "contested". If you see a Sentinel on your base, send a Tank or Sentinel there, or someone who can kite, to keep the point contested. Try not to engage in 1 enemy vs. 2 of your team fights on 1 and 3. Keep in mind that at the same time, you are outnumbered on the other 2 points! Never let that happen!
Exception:
You have a DC in the middle. When you have 2 people fighting 2 people at 1, and 2 people fighting 3 people at 3 and you know for sure that you do not expect any enemy to spawn, the DC can decide where he wants to help (at 1 or at 3). But you never EVER go with 3 DPS/Tanks to 1 or 3. This will outbalance the situation leading to the other 2 points capped by the people you just killed.
So, in your case, Alysin:
After taking the middle, max. 2 people go take the enemy base. By the speed of capping, you can say if there are 1 or 2 or more. If it is just 1, only 1 goes to cap it.
Well, that's my opinion on it based on my experience. I still prefer, as mentioned by Alysin in his post, just placing a good Sentinel on the enemy point.
I am going to do my best too!
I work in the oil industry and I haven't had a day off in 46 days. I am able to play depending on the specific job I am on, but I am using my 4g phone for connection. So even when I play I often suffer from some serious latency because I am out in the middle of nowhere with little to no service sometimes.
If I am able to have a day off Saturday(which I don't think possible), I will definitely be there with bells on enjoying the fun win or lose!
If not, we have very capable very skilled TR's in my guild that are better than I am that I hope to see go
Whether I make it Saturday or not, eventually I will have some time off and I will definitely be getting a guild team together to play whoever wants to on the Test Shard, as its very easy to do so.
I love love love competitive PvP, and I cant wait for the servers to merge. I know they talked about it, but I hope it happens sooner than later
Cheers!
Excellent reply. I 100% agree.
As I said depending on how the match plays out, we are always changing up our strats.
100% of the time, we rush middle to gain advantage, then push to there home base(generally with 2, like you mentioned), against premades.
As all premades are not good ones, sometimes we chose to send 1 capable party member to cap there home base, if the team is foolish and continues to send there entire team to 2.
Again, a good team that plays well and coordinates with each other will be constantly talking throughout the match, and changing up tactics depending on who needs help where, or which point at that specific moment is in dire need of capping/defending.
Thx for the reply!
Yes. Deflect is a % chance.
I am sitting at just over 41% deflect, and 27% damage reduction. With my deflect this high, its very common for me to see 2k Lashing blade hits from lesser geared players, and under 10k from Greater/Perfect Vorpal users. That's not to say I don't ever get hit hard because I do, but its rare. I get hit the hardest when I am CC'd/Prone.
The only thing I sacrificed by stacking my defenses, was ArP the most, and small crit and power. My crit is still over 50% chance, and my power is just under 5k. My ArP is only 5%(off the top of my head), which is terrible, but as I've stated before, I haven't noticed one single encounter where I was like "****, wish I had more arp"! I believe that is because for the most part everyone is debuffed at some point while I am fighting them. However, even while capping/defending nodes, and I know for sure the person isn't debuffed, I still haven't noticed a decrease in my damage out put. Whether that is because I am using a greater vorpal, or they have low defensive stats I don't know, lots of factors involved that I'm not sure I could ever pinpoint for sure.
As far as Regen. I mentioned it being one of the most important because of its consistency. It cannot be changed no matter what kind of debuffs a person might have on them. That being said, on my character I have 0 regeneration. But I have high deflect/defense so it allows me to survive longer, and generally run away if I need to. Regen would be great for me, but I am not going to sacrifice my deflect/defense, or my crit/power to gain regen. Would it be better for me? Maybe, but because of my playstyle, I enjoy my character very much as she sits right now, and don't plan on changing her set up in the future.
With regen, if a player is going to have it(from what I've seen from well built players I know), they are stacking it to atleast 1,000. I've seen higher, but from what I've heard just over 1000 is going to give you great results, without sacrificing too much of another stat..depending on the class/build.
No
The Node is surrounded by a perfect grey/silverfish circle. A player must be physically standing on any part of the circle in order to put the Node in Contention.
Keep in mind. I play a hafling, and have a 3% racial bonus to deflect. I also slot Infiltrator feat for 1%. On all my defensive slots, I slotted Azure for defense to gain 27%, and Silvery Rank 8's for deflection. Thankfully, Rank 8 silvery enchants are fairly inexpensive on my server.
After 36%, for me anyway..it was very difficult to raise my %. I don't feel that it scales badly persay, it just takes a lot more Deflect, in order to raise your % after 36. I'm sure some people may be able to verify this to exact numbers as far as % goes, but I just used trial and error.
Hope this helps!
Ok I'm sorry to point this out but I just noticed some things in your signature screenshot.
So your entire team obviously slaughtered them in kills, not even close to a contest, outright crushed them. But then I see that the enemy team won the game. So you obviously allowed them to cap points and kept the game going as long as possible while simply farming kills to get a high score. Not to say that you or your team didn't do well, but your score is quite misleading =P
I only even say anything b/c there are so many forum complainers that look at posts where TR's top the kills and cry for nerf...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Yah. I've said before that we lost that match.
Its a perfect example where 1 person cannot possibly win a match by themselves no matter how well they do.
I was doing my best to cap points by myself, but my entire team was fighting a GF on our node the whole fight
But they don't. All too few players have that attitude....
"Young people....." - Erik Lehnsherr
Now to your question:
1) Any % damage resistance, as well as the one, providied by defense, count as usual. Deflect = 0, when u are stunned, prone, frozen (not sure about dazed, though). On top of that, your deflect also = 0, when u attacked by a foe, who's having combat advantage against you (read: 90% of CWs and TRs).
Thus, this is a mistake:
Edit: well, not like a mistake, ofc, more like a misbelief - deflect is still cool on TR, since u guys naturally having high DEX, but still, deflect is relatively easy to avoid.
2) Ar Pen doesnt bring a target into negatives - 0% max. Lets say, u have 25% armor pen. and your target has 18% damage resistance - result will be 0%, not -7%.
Thus, this is a huge mistake:
Note: debuffs like High Vizier x4 set bonus, or RoE can actually bring you into negative damage resistance.
3)It does, tested.
My videos
And yes, there are a lot of misconceptions about the way stats work, especially Armor Pen. It's a worthy goal to get everyone to understand the mechanics as much as possible. Really helps to cut down on baseless calls for nerfs and also to identify "balancing" that's really helpful to the game.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Question though. What do you mean when you say Deflect is "easy to avoid"?
In my understanding of how Deflect works.
I have a 41% Chance to deflect.
My Damage avoided when I do successfully deflect is 25%.
So, 41% of the time, I take 25% less damage.
Which brings me to my next question.
I have 27% damage resistance. So lets say that I am not debuffed at all. I successfully evade an attack, taking 25% less damage + 27% damage resistance =52%. So instead of taking a 15k crit, I would take a 7,350k crit instead. Is this correct how I am figuring the numbers?
For sure!
Cant remember if it was the good match or the bad one, heh. We had one that was terrible, no team cohesion and we lost. The rest were all pretty decent =P