ghestapwMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Hmmmm not really (not that i 'jumped on you' personally) A lot of the concerns in this thread are perfectly valid. It's a problem that's indicative of a much greater problem, that being a serious lack of communication between the company and the player base, and a lack of quality control on the one aspect of the game that makes it unique from other MMOs.
Also, on a personal note, I don't 100% buy the whole 'it was an accident' thing. Seems like a convenient excuse for fixing a screw up. But that's just me being a cynical and grumpy old man..
Rhev@ghestapw - Co-GL <iTyrant> - ityrantguild.com - Beholder server
Try out my first foundry mission - The Missing Youth - NW-DGX79EG65
0
celantraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 465
edited August 2013
Its just that I have been playing MMO's for a lot of years. It never fails to amuse me how reactionary the communities become. Usually over some perceived effort on the part of the developers, in a us verses them attitude. While the reality is that in most cases the developers, want to make a good game, they want to have it be enjoyed, and they want it to make money.
Though there are those that disagree, I believe they want those things in the order I have stated them. We all know that we can do it better then any game company out there, and we can arm chair quarterback every decision they make, and know that we are all infinitely wiser then they are regardless of who they may be.
I know my opinion is not popular, and I fully expect the one star trolls to come out and smack me, as they all ready are. The reality is though that while there are many valid points made in this thread, it is also full of hyperbole.
From dictionary.com.
Hyperbole
noun Rhetoric
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”
Cryptic has a long history of not communicating well (or at all) with players.
And this is part of a greater dissatisfaction with Foundry and feeling that our concerns are either unheard, not a priority, or not appreciated by Cryptic.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
0
crok2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
If I had made a mistake (I wanted to use a colloquial term that is a joining of the 4 letter word for a male chicken and -up) of this proportion, affecting so many people, that could be fixed by taking 5 minutes out to edit a list, I would have - at best - 10 minutes to fix it before being hauled in for disciplinary action.
If that "error" had been beyond my control I would not have faced any disciplinary action, or if it would have taken hours to rectify I would have been given enough leeway to facilitate that.
My boss is very hands-on. Never asks us to do something that she isn't prepared to do herself. Flip side of that is she know how long things actually take. If it would only take her 5 mins to do something I only get 5 mins to do it.
There is no conceivable way that it can take this long to fix a filter list.
Worst case scenario: roll back to the previous configuration; time to implement - 1 hour tops.
If that "error" had been beyond my control I would not have faced any disciplinary action, or if it would have taken hours to rectify I would have been given enough leeway to facilitate that.
My boss is very hands-on. Never asks us to do something that she isn't prepared to do herself. Flip side of that is she know how long things actually take. If it would only take her 5 mins to do something I only get 5 mins to do it.
There is no conceivable way that it can take this long to fix a filter list.
Worst case scenario: roll back to the previous configuration; time to implement - 1 hour tops.
We're at 5 days.
Indefensible.
All The Best
Lets see, first we have had a weekend during which we know that the dev team rarely work unless there's an emergency, and we have a major patch in less than 3 days. If there were intentional back end changes to the filter then there's a chance that they can't easily roll them back without breaking the major patch in a few days. So the 'fix' could be some intern having to go through the filter list and remove anything that could be causing these words to be flagged. After that we have internal testing on the current live environment, and internal testing on the major patch.
Also, given the time to the major patch it's also likely that they've just decided to put the fix into the major patch rather than having downtime for a (technically) minor issue.
EDIT: Before anyone complains I'm well aware that from Our point of view this is a major issue. However, from a developer point of view this is possibly viewed as a minor issue and not worth downtime to fix before the Feywild update.
Would you go a week without water if the water company were planning another major job halfway across town in a week's time, and assume they'd fix your issue then?
Never really understood why people accept poor quality service from software providers that they'd never accept from the provider of their car, water, electricity or indeed anything else.
Would you go a week without water if the water company were planning another major job halfway across town in a week's time, and assume they'd fix your issue then?
No but you're comparing apples to oranges again. There's very few problems with my personal water supply that would affect another job across town. Whereas in software it's an entirely different story. That and I'm fully aware that if it did happen and it was necessary to keep the water off for a week the water company (at least my local one) would provide bottled water and portable showers/toilets for free until it was fixed.
Never really understood why people accept poor quality service from software providers that they'd never accept from the provider of their car, water, electricity or indeed anything else.
Poor service is poor service.
Not to be defended or excused.
All The Best
Because it's a game, entertainment, not necessary for my survival or day to day routine.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2013
*shakes head and sighs*
The one static opinion throughout the forums is that whatever a person is posting about is the most important issue to the game.
The developers do not work on the weekends. If something blows up they come in and put out the fires but they are off on the weekends. Standard practice really. And while we all love the Foundry, the Foundry filter is not an "emergency."
Now if this was another week maybe it would be handled differently. I don't know.
But with Fury of the Feywild two days away...
Yeah. Not everything can be a top priority fix.
It's getting changed. I'm glad to see you care so much but do try to relax a bit.
There's plenty you can do for a few days until they get a fix out because, honestly, if every player's top priority was Cryptic's top priority nothing would ever get accomplished.
In fact its so not necessary I haven't even though about logging in for close to 48 hours.
But that doesn't change poor service to good service.
Some of us have standards, and principles.
All The Best
I never said it did, I was just pointing out why this type of 'poor service' from Cryptic is more acceptable than it would be from any of the other things you mentioned.
However right now I can see the situation from both sides, the devs are rushed off their feet trying to make sure that the Feywild patch is ready to live Thursday and are living in a world where Feywild is effectively 'released' from their PoV. For the players however the issue with the filters is in the here and now making it more urgent than any issues the devs may be having with the Feywild update.
If it isn't fixed with the Feywild patch however, then I will be joining the players in complaining about it wildly.
EDIT - Incidently any patch released before Thursday will have to be thoroughly tested with Feywild to ensure that it's compatible with the patch, I've seen it too often where an emergency patch goes live just before a major patch and the major patch undoes the fix put in by the emergency patch and/or makes things worse because it wasn't properly tested.
As such from the devs PoV it makes more sense to just put this fix straight into Feywild so they can be certain it won't break anything when Feywild goes live.
Expecting it to be fixed this week is a little unreasonable. For the fix to be included with fury, it would of had to of been ready last week. I doubt the would risk furys launch with a rushed ad hoc additional fix. I suspect they soonest we will see a fix would be next weeks weekly update. After a major launch there will always be a cooling off period of bug fixes. It makes more sense to roll the filter fix in with that, then the big launch that is already compiled, being previewed, and all but ready for launch.
Because it's a game, entertainment, not necessary for my survival or day to day routine.
Not quite right. Yes it is a game and not necessary for day to day stuff. But the real reason any gaming company can release poor quality games and give poor quality service is that we, the consumer, allow it to happen by paying said company anyway. If the gaming community would stop accepting poor quality games and stop giving them money, you had better believe things would change.
<snip>
EDIT - Incidently any patch released before Thursday will have to be thoroughly tested with Feywild to ensure that it's compatible with the patch, I've seen it too often where an emergency patch goes live just before a major patch and the major patch undoes the fix put in by the emergency patch and/or makes things worse because it wasn't properly tested.
As such from the devs PoV it makes more sense to just put this fix straight into Feywild so they can be certain it won't break anything when Feywild goes live.
By thoroughly tested you mean like it was tested when it slipped by originally?
Narayan
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Till Next We Meet.
Narayan
Personally, I'm really frustrated. I've got a whole bunch of tweaks and enhancements ready to go into Danger in the Sky, but I don't want to have to change a dozen dialogues in order to publish... since we know they're now recognizing it as a bug that needs to be fixed. Bleh.
I know that Feywild is all-consuming to the devs right now, but I really wish someone over there could just check on what new setting they introduced to the Profanity Filter and then flip the switch back for us.
EDIT: By the way, I just checked to see what kinds of phrases were provoking the Profanity Filter in Danger in the Sky, keeping me from publishing changes. Here's a sampling:
"let me in"
"drop on your head"
"innocent child" (though "baby," "babe," and "offspring" are okay)
"bring them to me"
"when you are finished"
"when you are through"
"when you are done"
(and variations using "you're" as well)
The one static opinion throughout the forums is that whatever a person is posting about is the most important issue to the game.
Cryptic doesn't test adequately (I have mountains of evidence of this, for instance the entire history of Champions Online and continued 'bugs were brought up in testing but devs are acting like this is the first they've heard of it')
Cryptic doesn't communicate much with players (compared to a lot of other game companies).
These 'issues' apply to a lot of stuff. And they ARE the highest priority items Cryptic continually fails to address, regardless of the specific instance.
The developers do not work on the weekends. If something blows up they come in and put out the fires but they are off on the weekends. Standard practice really. And while we all love the Foundry, the Foundry filter is not an "emergency."
It is if the only thing you play is Foundry. I don't think you, or they, understand that the only thing unique and stand-out about this game is Foundry. It is the big hook.
If you don't agree, fine, but if you continue to act like Foundry is less important than whatever short-burn content you are shoving out this season, the game is set up for failure. All those PvPers and raiders aren't going to love you like we can.
It's getting changed. I'm glad to see you care so much but do try to relax a bit.
There's plenty you can do for a few days until they get a fix out because, honestly, if every player's top priority was Cryptic's top priority nothing would ever get accomplished.
I'd love to hear whether this was tested at all, and how.
Maybe if Cryptic prioritized communication, we'd find out. But we won't.
And that sucks.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Color me shocked. Looks like a fix did get rolled into todays Preview patch. So much for my entire diatribe on things, however, its good to be wrong in this case.
There was a 500mb patch to the preview server. All the following words except "pens" have been fixed. For some reason "pens" still flags as profane for me.
Color me shocked. Looks like a fix did get rolled into todays Preview patch. So much for my entire diatribe on things, however, its good to be wrong in this case.
Kudos to the dev team on this.
Wonder what they mean by "a couple other cases"?
Narayan
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Till Next We Meet.
Narayan
0
apocrs1980Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
it's a bug, they are working on fixing it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Cragsteep Crypt - BETA Ravenloft Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Issue Update:
. . . . . We just got word: This filter issue with the Foundry is a bug the Devs are working on and will be resolved as soon as they can.
I find it kind of funny they fixed all the words that were causing problems, EXCEPT "pens" which is the one word they said in their patch note documentation. hmm....
*shakes head and sighs*The developers do not work on the weekends. If something blows up they come in and put out the fires but they are off on the weekends. Standard practice really. And while we all love the Foundry, the Foundry filter is not an "emergency."
I don't think people are mad at it not being fixed (Well, there are people that are mad at that), they're mad that there was silence for days
Religion - 60 GF (15.3k GS)
The Seeker - 60 DC (11.5k GS)
Faithless - 60 CW (10k GS)
I don't think people are mad at it not being fixed (Well, there are people that are mad at that), they're mad that there was silence for days
This is definitely my issue with it. I work in software, so I know all about priorities, and how what a user might think is a trivial "fix" might actually be very complex or even impossible.
What I could never get away with, though, is letting a customer sit for 5 days with no feedback regarding a problem. I'm sure it's all hands on deck for the upcoming patch, but this simply broke the foundry for a number of Authors. Personally I was so eager to get some updates out for testing that I ended up changing my dialog so I could publish them. I was lucky, though - I only had about a dozen things to fix. I'm also not happy with the dialog now as it stands; it's awkward, and I'll have to go back and fix it once the problem is resolved.
I'm not bothered by the bug. Stuff happens. I wouldn't be particularly bothered if it took a few weeks to fix. Fixes can be deceptively complicated.
What I'm bothered by, and what has me questioning whether I want to continue working with the foundry, is that it takes DAYS to get any kind of answer or acknowledgement that a problem even exists.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Felling the Forgemaster: NW-DOHCJ5VE3(Elligible for Foundry Daily) Fleshrend's Big Adventure: NW-DBWJJYFDK (Elligible for Foundry Daily)
Comments
Also, on a personal note, I don't 100% buy the whole 'it was an accident' thing. Seems like a convenient excuse for fixing a screw up. But that's just me being a cynical and grumpy old man..
Try out my first foundry mission - The Missing Youth - NW-DGX79EG65
Though there are those that disagree, I believe they want those things in the order I have stated them. We all know that we can do it better then any game company out there, and we can arm chair quarterback every decision they make, and know that we are all infinitely wiser then they are regardless of who they may be.
I know my opinion is not popular, and I fully expect the one star trolls to come out and smack me, as they all ready are. The reality is though that while there are many valid points made in this thread, it is also full of hyperbole.
From dictionary.com.
Hyperbole
noun Rhetoric
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”
Cryptic has a long history of not communicating well (or at all) with players.
And this is part of a greater dissatisfaction with Foundry and feeling that our concerns are either unheard, not a priority, or not appreciated by Cryptic.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Nice! And welcome back
Video Review: http://www.twitch.tv/zovya/c/2671017
I don't think I'd want to work where you work.
Awesome! Thanks for letting us know.
At least cursory testing before deploying to a production environment is pretty standard. (Much less a multimillion dollar production environment)
The Seeker - 60 DC (11.5k GS)
Faithless - 60 CW (10k GS)
Why?
Its a great place to work.
If that "error" had been beyond my control I would not have faced any disciplinary action, or if it would have taken hours to rectify I would have been given enough leeway to facilitate that.
My boss is very hands-on. Never asks us to do something that she isn't prepared to do herself. Flip side of that is she know how long things actually take. If it would only take her 5 mins to do something I only get 5 mins to do it.
There is no conceivable way that it can take this long to fix a filter list.
Worst case scenario: roll back to the previous configuration; time to implement - 1 hour tops.
We're at 5 days.
Indefensible.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
Lets see, first we have had a weekend during which we know that the dev team rarely work unless there's an emergency, and we have a major patch in less than 3 days. If there were intentional back end changes to the filter then there's a chance that they can't easily roll them back without breaking the major patch in a few days. So the 'fix' could be some intern having to go through the filter list and remove anything that could be causing these words to be flagged. After that we have internal testing on the current live environment, and internal testing on the major patch.
Also, given the time to the major patch it's also likely that they've just decided to put the fix into the major patch rather than having downtime for a (technically) minor issue.
EDIT: Before anyone complains I'm well aware that from Our point of view this is a major issue. However, from a developer point of view this is possibly viewed as a minor issue and not worth downtime to fix before the Feywild update.
Never really understood why people accept poor quality service from software providers that they'd never accept from the provider of their car, water, electricity or indeed anything else.
Poor service is poor service.
Not to be defended or excused.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
No but you're comparing apples to oranges again. There's very few problems with my personal water supply that would affect another job across town. Whereas in software it's an entirely different story. That and I'm fully aware that if it did happen and it was necessary to keep the water off for a week the water company (at least my local one) would provide bottled water and portable showers/toilets for free until it was fixed.
Because it's a game, entertainment, not necessary for my survival or day to day routine.
The one static opinion throughout the forums is that whatever a person is posting about is the most important issue to the game.
The developers do not work on the weekends. If something blows up they come in and put out the fires but they are off on the weekends. Standard practice really. And while we all love the Foundry, the Foundry filter is not an "emergency."
Now if this was another week maybe it would be handled differently. I don't know.
But with Fury of the Feywild two days away...
Yeah. Not everything can be a top priority fix.
It's getting changed. I'm glad to see you care so much but do try to relax a bit.
There's plenty you can do for a few days until they get a fix out because, honestly, if every player's top priority was Cryptic's top priority nothing would ever get accomplished.
Oh its not necessary to me either.
In fact its so not necessary I haven't even though about logging in for close to 48 hours.
But that doesn't change poor service to good service.
Some of us have standards, and principles.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
I never said it did, I was just pointing out why this type of 'poor service' from Cryptic is more acceptable than it would be from any of the other things you mentioned.
However right now I can see the situation from both sides, the devs are rushed off their feet trying to make sure that the Feywild patch is ready to live Thursday and are living in a world where Feywild is effectively 'released' from their PoV. For the players however the issue with the filters is in the here and now making it more urgent than any issues the devs may be having with the Feywild update.
If it isn't fixed with the Feywild patch however, then I will be joining the players in complaining about it wildly.
EDIT - Incidently any patch released before Thursday will have to be thoroughly tested with Feywild to ensure that it's compatible with the patch, I've seen it too often where an emergency patch goes live just before a major patch and the major patch undoes the fix put in by the emergency patch and/or makes things worse because it wasn't properly tested.
As such from the devs PoV it makes more sense to just put this fix straight into Feywild so they can be certain it won't break anything when Feywild goes live.
Not quite right. Yes it is a game and not necessary for day to day stuff. But the real reason any gaming company can release poor quality games and give poor quality service is that we, the consumer, allow it to happen by paying said company anyway. If the gaming community would stop accepting poor quality games and stop giving them money, you had better believe things would change.
By thoroughly tested you mean like it was tested when it slipped by originally?
Narayan
Narayan
Personally, I'm really frustrated. I've got a whole bunch of tweaks and enhancements ready to go into Danger in the Sky, but I don't want to have to change a dozen dialogues in order to publish... since we know they're now recognizing it as a bug that needs to be fixed. Bleh.
I know that Feywild is all-consuming to the devs right now, but I really wish someone over there could just check on what new setting they introduced to the Profanity Filter and then flip the switch back for us.
EDIT: By the way, I just checked to see what kinds of phrases were provoking the Profanity Filter in Danger in the Sky, keeping me from publishing changes. Here's a sampling:
"let me in"
"drop on your head"
"innocent child" (though "baby," "babe," and "offspring" are okay)
"bring them to me"
"when you are finished"
"when you are through"
"when you are done"
(and variations using "you're" as well)
Cryptic doesn't test adequately (I have mountains of evidence of this, for instance the entire history of Champions Online and continued 'bugs were brought up in testing but devs are acting like this is the first they've heard of it')
Cryptic doesn't communicate much with players (compared to a lot of other game companies).
These 'issues' apply to a lot of stuff. And they ARE the highest priority items Cryptic continually fails to address, regardless of the specific instance.
It is if the only thing you play is Foundry. I don't think you, or they, understand that the only thing unique and stand-out about this game is Foundry. It is the big hook.
If you don't agree, fine, but if you continue to act like Foundry is less important than whatever short-burn content you are shoving out this season, the game is set up for failure. All those PvPers and raiders aren't going to love you like we can.
It's a text filter.
Not every fix request is asking for new game systems or libraries of assets.
I'd love to hear whether this was tested at all, and how.
Maybe if Cryptic prioritized communication, we'd find out. But we won't.
And that sucks.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Kudos to the dev team on this.
After ages of toying around, I finally figured out the cause...It was because I had named the guy the "Arena Master".
After renaming him to "Arena Lord" and removing "master" from any and everything in the quest, the profane word notification went away.
So now I ask you...PW...WHO GETS OFFENDED BY THE USE OF THE WORD "MASTER"!? I mean seriously...
@Moonchips
Wonder what they mean by "a couple other cases"?
Narayan
Narayan
Ravenloft
Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
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@Moonchips
I don't think people are mad at it not being fixed (Well, there are people that are mad at that), they're mad that there was silence for days
The Seeker - 60 DC (11.5k GS)
Faithless - 60 CW (10k GS)
This is definitely my issue with it. I work in software, so I know all about priorities, and how what a user might think is a trivial "fix" might actually be very complex or even impossible.
What I could never get away with, though, is letting a customer sit for 5 days with no feedback regarding a problem. I'm sure it's all hands on deck for the upcoming patch, but this simply broke the foundry for a number of Authors. Personally I was so eager to get some updates out for testing that I ended up changing my dialog so I could publish them. I was lucky, though - I only had about a dozen things to fix. I'm also not happy with the dialog now as it stands; it's awkward, and I'll have to go back and fix it once the problem is resolved.
I'm not bothered by the bug. Stuff happens. I wouldn't be particularly bothered if it took a few weeks to fix. Fixes can be deceptively complicated.
What I'm bothered by, and what has me questioning whether I want to continue working with the foundry, is that it takes DAYS to get any kind of answer or acknowledgement that a problem even exists.
Felling the Forgemaster: NW-DOHCJ5VE3 (Elligible for Foundry Daily)
Fleshrend's Big Adventure: NW-DBWJJYFDK
(Elligible for Foundry Daily)