Being painfully aware of what is broke is how stuff gets done. Nothing is done till its painful.
Seriously? Do you even look at what you are typing while you type it? cuz you are obviously confused...
I said that everyone on these boards is painfully aware of your, beaten to death, stance on stealth and Rogues in general...Most don't agree with you if you haven't noticed, including the devs. Please stop posting the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over and over and stop backing up your arguments by saying things like "my friends all agree with me". Your inability to comprehend what others say to you is astounding...
Well no, that's really rather silly. If both teams are similarly geared and all are kitted out with Greater Tene's in offensive slots then what you have is a level playing field. So this should be precisely what you want!
If you're not okay with a level playing field, and it seems from your posts that you're not, then what you're again demanding is that people play the way you want them to play. That's both ridiculous and selfish. If you want a level playing field, that's more like dueling and that can be an interesting conversation. But it looks like this is another "I don't like this so I want the game to change to suit me" argument of yours.
Lol it has nothing to do with level playing field. Just keep missing it. It has to do with (insert word here)-Tene enchants. The player that procs first wins. It removes all skill and makes strat less of a factor. It becomes a match of RNG and whoever has the best RNG wins the match of the Tene's. If you want a level playing field don't use them. IF I am going to see a top geared vs top geared leave the tene's behind so I can actually see who has any skill. Not that anyone in this game is actually skilled as of yet and no way of proving it either. Till there are rankings and you have a win loss record.
Lol it has nothing to do with level playing field. Just keep missing it. It has to do with (insert word here)-Tene enchants. The player that procs first wins. It removes all skill and makes strat less of a factor. It becomes a match of RNG and whoever has the best RNG wins the match of the Tene's. If you want a level playing field don't use them. IF I am going to see a top geared vs top geared leave the tene's behind so I can actually see who has any skill. Not that anyone in this game is actually skilled as of yet and no way of proving it either. Till there are rankings and you have a win loss record.
You are boring and redundant. None of my toons except my gwf have any tenes. No greater tenes whatsoever. All of them top pvp charts regularly. That includes pugs and premades. Win or lose. The problem is with YOU and YOUR FRIENDS. Not the itemization.
Well this thread is going to get locked soon and moved to the "lower depths" so I might as well add some gas to the fire so it happens faster and we can all get on with our lives...
This thread is HUGELY moronic in the first place. Basically made by a guy who doesnt have tene enchants who is too poor to ever afford one who heard others (who also dont have them NOR know how they work) explain how OP they are and then came to post on the forums about them...
so let me get this WHOLE thing straight... you are complaining because the BiS enchant for pvp is well... BiS?
Do you want to know HOW people with tene can tell your full of it? Because your over exaggerating how tenes work/how they proc/how often they proc AND the advantage it gives...
1st off the MORE broken thing than tene is the regen stat... THAT is what makes the Sent Spec OP, NOT the tenes... But I dont see you complaining about that...
2nd, Tene is ALREADY on a 20 sec CD so it sounds like its the same on the PTR... That said it has to proc off an attack and then another attack can see the damage... That DOESNt happen every 20 seconds... Also it procs of CURRENT hp... what does that mean? Well the less HP they have the less tene helps...
Why does that matter? Because GWFs are only uber tanks for 2 reasons...
1) Unstoppable - which MOST dont even use correctly, which requires them to TAKE DAMAGE to use
2) Regen - which only really helps the LESS hp you have.
What does this formula tell us? GWFS are RARELY if almost NEVEER at full HP, especially against GOOD players.
Regen is important because BELOW 50% HP you can get ticks upwards of 1800 every 3 seconds... but notice... BELOW 50% Hp... Thats where MOST GWFs will be against DECENT players... MAYBE in the 60-70% range but most likely not... because its the regen that is keeping them alive BELOW 50%.
So now lets do your math...
37k HP *50%*.03*7= 3,885 damage EVERY 20 seconds.... and this is what your complaining about?
At MAX Hp its 7770 which is almost never and thats is ALL proc and ALL hit...
Now... MOST people have atleast 25k HP and GWF speced regen/sent/tankmode well... their encounters CRIT for 4-6k. but WAIT!!!!! They sacrificed offensive slots for tene so they have like 20% crit!
So lets add TWO crit encounters plus FULL tene procs.... 12k+7770= call it 20k..... thats TWO crit encounters and FULL tene procs... with a 20-25mil+ AD Character.... and you didnt kill them....
and Tene is what your mad about?
I agree it needs TWEAKING but seriously... 10 pages of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because people love to talk about something they know nothing about...
I will tell you first hand you can TELL in game who good players are because tene wont kill them...
TRs stay stealth+ITC and KNOW they cant toe to toe you....
GFs - instead of trying to pew pew dps, they perma stun you so their TR or CW can pew pew your *** off and you just sit and watch it happen too.
DCs- Astral Shield and kite you around while their GF stuns you or two of their buddies come kill you
CWs - I have played VERY good CWs that can kite the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me and live for 2 min +... Can they kill me? no, but I cant kill them either...
SO NO class just gets flat out rolled if played right against tene....
Think of this:
There will ALWAYS be 1 class that NOONE can stand toe to toe with... In this game it makes SENSE thats a GWF... so maybe we need a lesson on how to play...
See a Sent GWF with Tene... maybe.... JUST dont stand toe to toe and work with your team to lock them down... Its really not hard ESPECIALLY considering its a team game NOT based on K/D ratio...
There are THREE points and FIVE people so if you do the math, you can have more than 1 person on a point...
Yes they are strong, they are BiS. YES they need a tweak, but NO they arent game breaking compared to MANY other things...
Regen for example... Knights Challenge is a HUGE cheese, so is ferocious reaction AND Stalwarts...
Lol it has nothing to do with level playing field. Just keep missing it. It has to do with (insert word here)-Tene enchants. The player that procs first wins. It removes all skill and makes strat less of a factor. It becomes a match of RNG and whoever has the best RNG wins the match of the Tene's. If you want a level playing field don't use them. IF I am going to see a top geared vs top geared leave the tene's behind so I can actually see who has any skill. Not that anyone in this game is actually skilled as of yet and no way of proving it either. Till there are rankings and you have a win loss record.
And this is where your argument falls apart because you are basing it on what you like and don't like but trying to present it as though you have anything approaching solid evidence.
So if it is about skill, then two teams geared up with Tene's and other high end kit are on a level playing field, therefore skill is a factor. Your RNG argument doesn't really work since everything is RNG dependent barring certain skills which can be directly influenced to always crit - such as lashing blades from stealth. Even then, there is going to be an RNG issue since 12K isn't going to one-shot anyone whereas 26K can.
If it is about strategy, which I admit I'm amazed that you're suggesting this given that you don't use your class' core mechanics of mark and block, then tene's are irrelevant. Someone who plays well and looks to always seize tactical dvantage by playing to their strengths forcing the other team to adapt is going to have the edge even over someone loaded with better gear. Sure, a new 60 with 5,700 gear score is at a MASSIVE disadvantage over someone with a 14K gear score and all of it is BiS but if they don't play like an idiot such as the CW who doesn't teleport away, the GF who doesn't block as soon as the TR enters stealth, the DC who doesn't use their AS, etc, they can give a good showing.
Again, I get the fact that you don't like Tene's. So don't use them. Work with your team. Develop strategies and tactics that work. If you want to treat Tene users the way you treat rogues and ragequit each match, abandoning your team, that's your choice also. But it is very, very hard to read your posts other than "I don't like how this works because it interferes with my goal of being the top of the DPS chart and killing the most other players" complaints.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
I will tell you first hand you can TELL in game who good players are because tene wont kill them...
TRs stay stealth+ITC and KNOW they cant toe to toe you....
GFs - instead of trying to pew pew dps, they perma stun you so their TR or CW can pew pew your *** off and you just sit and watch it happen too.
DCs- Astral Shield and kite you around while their GF stuns you or two of their buddies come kill you
CWs - I have played VERY good CWs that can kite the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me and live for 2 min +... Can they kill me? no, but I cant kill them either...
SO NO class just gets flat out rolled if played right against tene....
And this.
Seriously, it's about developing the right strategies and tactics to play your class well in PvP. There isn't even just one right answer, but myriad answers based on how you enjoy playing. If none of these work for you because your enjoyment is predicated on other people conforming to additional rules that you require to have fun, then no one here can help you.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
0
bitz06Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 24Arc User
Well this thread is going to get locked soon and moved to the "lower depths" so I might as well add some gas to the fire so it happens faster and we can all get on with our lives...
This thread is HUGELY moronic in the first place. Basically made by a guy who doesnt have tene enchants who is too poor to ever afford one who heard others (who also dont have them NOR know how they work) explain how OP they are and then came to post on the forums about them...
so let me get this WHOLE thing straight... you are complaining because the BiS enchant for pvp is well... BiS?
Do you want to know HOW people with tene can tell your full of it? Because your over exaggerating how tenes work/how they proc/how often they proc AND the advantage it gives...
1st off the MORE broken thing than tene is the regen stat... THAT is what makes the Sent Spec OP, NOT the tenes... But I dont see you complaining about that...
2nd, Tene is ALREADY on a 20 sec CD so it sounds like its the same on the PTR... That said it has to proc off an attack and then another attack can see the damage... That DOESNt happen every 20 seconds... Also it procs of CURRENT hp... what does that mean? Well the less HP they have the less tene helps...
Why does that matter? Because GWFs are only uber tanks for 2 reasons...
1) Unstoppable - which MOST dont even use correctly, which requires them to TAKE DAMAGE to use
2) Regen - which only really helps the LESS hp you have.
What does this formula tell us? GWFS are RARELY if almost NEVEER at full HP, especially against GOOD players.
Regen is important because BELOW 50% HP you can get ticks upwards of 1800 every 3 seconds... but notice... BELOW 50% Hp... Thats where MOST GWFs will be against DECENT players... MAYBE in the 60-70% range but most likely not... because its the regen that is keeping them alive BELOW 50%.
So now lets do your math...
37k HP *50%*.03*7= 3,885 damage EVERY 20 seconds.... and this is what your complaining about?
At MAX Hp its 7770 which is almost never and thats is ALL proc and ALL hit...
Now... MOST people have atleast 25k HP and GWF speced regen/sent/tankmode well... their encounters CRIT for 4-6k. but WAIT!!!!! They sacrificed offensive slots for tene so they have like 20% crit!
So lets add TWO crit encounters plus FULL tene procs.... 12k+7770= call it 20k..... thats TWO crit encounters and FULL tene procs... with a 20-25mil+ AD Character.... and you didnt kill them....
and Tene is what your mad about?
I agree it needs TWEAKING but seriously... 10 pages of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because people love to talk about something they know nothing about...
I will tell you first hand you can TELL in game who good players are because tene wont kill them...
TRs stay stealth+ITC and KNOW they cant toe to toe you....
GFs - instead of trying to pew pew dps, they perma stun you so their TR or CW can pew pew your *** off and you just sit and watch it happen too.
DCs- Astral Shield and kite you around while their GF stuns you or two of their buddies come kill you
CWs - I have played VERY good CWs that can kite the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me and live for 2 min +... Can they kill me? no, but I cant kill them either...
SO NO class just gets flat out rolled if played right against tene....
Think of this:
There will ALWAYS be 1 class that NOONE can stand toe to toe with... In this game it makes SENSE thats a GWF... so maybe we need a lesson on how to play...
See a Sent GWF with Tene... maybe.... JUST dont stand toe to toe and work with your team to lock them down... Its really not hard ESPECIALLY considering its a team game NOT based on K/D ratio...
There are THREE points and FIVE people so if you do the math, you can have more than 1 person on a point...
Yes they are strong, they are BiS. YES they need a tweak, but NO they arent game breaking compared to MANY other things...
Regen for example... Knights Challenge is a HUGE cheese, so is ferocious reaction AND Stalwarts...
TLDR: QQ MOAR!!!
100% correct, there is one problem. The Forums are no place for a person with logic.
37k HP *50%*.03*7= 3,885 damage EVERY 20 seconds.... and this is what your complaining about?
At MAX Hp its 7770 which is almost never and thats is ALL proc and ALL hit...
This is incorrect, if GWF rolls with gr8r/perfect negation it procs immediately unlike soulforge, therefore even if you encounter a GF and he strikes first and does full combo rotation, you remain at about 85% HP when you begin your first tene proc, after that you don't get hit by much, assuming the other player had tenes aswell since now hes low on hp, this means your 2nd tene proc will be at roughly 60-70% HP which is already enough to kill.
(if you didn't kill by then its just a matter of couple secs because the other player is very low on HP).
negation enables you to proc unstoppable and be at 80% against 2 attacking players, lets say a CW + rogue, therefore you can just run straight to the cw and do your burst on him, allowing you to 1v2 easily.
And this is where your argument falls apart because you are basing it on what you like and don't like but trying to present it as though you have anything approaching solid evidence.
So if it is about skill, then two teams geared up with Tene's and other high end kit are on a level playing field, therefore skill is a factor. Your RNG argument doesn't really work since everything is RNG dependent barring certain skills which can be directly influenced to always crit - such as lashing blades from stealth. Even then, there is going to be an RNG issue since 12K isn't going to one-shot anyone whereas 26K can.
If it is about strategy, which I admit I'm amazed that you're suggesting this given that you don't use your class' core mechanics of mark and block, then tene's are irrelevant. Someone who plays well and looks to always seize tactical dvantage by playing to their strengths forcing the other team to adapt is going to have the edge even over someone loaded with better gear. Sure, a new 60 with 5,700 gear score is at a MASSIVE disadvantage over someone with a 14K gear score and all of it is BiS but if they don't play like an idiot such as the CW who doesn't teleport away, the GF who doesn't block as soon as the TR enters stealth, the DC who doesn't use their AS, etc, they can give a good showing.
Again, I get the fact that you don't like Tene's. So don't use them. Work with your team. Develop strategies and tactics that work. If you want to treat Tene users the way you treat rogues and ragequit each match, abandoning your team, that's your choice also. But it is very, very hard to read your posts other than "I don't like how this works because it interferes with my goal of being the top of the DPS chart and killing the most other players" complaints.
No if Tene's are used there is no skill in the fight. Fact
No if Tene's are used there is no skill in the fight. Fact
This is another of those moments where you are using words to mean something other than what they mean. If that were a fact, then Tene's would be some sort of "game over" big red button. I think that everyone here knows that is not the case. You show up with your tene's and don't use your block, my CW locks you down and you die. You show up with your tene's and charge at my TR, he goes into stealth, stun locks you, and you die.
You want to know how to do well in PvP? I will give you the two keys to success right here: Knowing how to most effectively play your build and class, then working with your team. Tene's are just one more enchant, and one that means the person isn't deriving the benefit of other enchants.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
When you start calling opinion, fact. You've pretty much accepted defeat. You have no arguement. Quit while you're behind.
Well 2+2 = 4
Tene's = rng wins. Yay.
I guess I draw a simple conclusion. I can't see how anyone using tene's has any skill. I mean it just robs them of it. I just made a new Alt got to 60 last night to have fun and theory craft on. If I put all tene's in his gear I kinda take any skill of a build out when playing and I know that. If I beat someone with a Tene' build and they say good fight I can just respond.
I guess I draw a simple conclusion. I can't see how anyone using tene's has any skill. I mean it just robs them of it. I just made a new Alt got to 60 last night to have fun and theory craft on. If I put all tene's in his gear I kinda take any skill of a build out when playing and I know that. If I beat someone with a Tene' build and they say good fight I can just respond.
Nah I used tene's nothing good about it.
So once again it comes down to something you don't like that you don't use. Great, so don't use them. Problem solved.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
I have a dream I will log on today and hopefully not encounter any Tene builds or get 1 shot by lashing blade. I love dreams.
Dreams are great, but come on now - dream bigger! Dream that enchantments higher than Rank 4 will drop in epic dungeons! Dream of people playing as part of a team and communicating with others!
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
llantiss, the reason why the badly spelt abomination never complains about GF is because that is what he plays. He wants that stronger. more hPS, more dmaage reduction etc.
Lol I actually tried out this build on my GWF, minus tene's of course so he doesn't really have any damage to speak of lol. I'm at 34.5k (only rank 6 radiants and not all defense slots filled with them) and 38.5% deflect (53.5% with weapon master stacks!! lol) and 9.5% ish regen. He may take 20-30 seconds to kill someone but man he lives forever... and with takedown and feated flourish (extra second stun) + avalanche he has huge cc and point holding potential. This build is really fun even with no damage, it's pretty easy to see how retardedly overpowered it would be with tene's.
Lol! @ kolatmaster
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
This build is really fun even with no damage, it's pretty easy to see how retardedly overpowered it would be with tene's.
So the question that is something MUST be modified, is does the build need to be modified or do the enchantments need to be modified. Or is this all WAI.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
So the question that is something MUST be modified, is does the build need to be modified or do the enchantments need to be modified. Or is this all WAI.
I think the build is pretty balanced, Yes I am super tanky, but I was killed one or two times before I could even use unstoppable with GF prone juggle + 2 dps on me. I also do such pitiful little damage that I rarely get kills, if anyone else is attacking the target they almost always get the last hit. This build makes you into a hard CC for the enemy dps, you can force them all to attack you by going after them thereby taking all of the damage for your team.
It's a pretty fun build and quite balanced damage wise on its own, but when you throw in Tene's and make the tankiest build also have huge burst it's quite overpowered. So I would have to say the enchants are the OP part.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Tank builds tank. Anyone surprised by this? In PvP you can go Survival builds or Burst Glass Canons. It's all a mater of your play style and role within your team.
abombination24 - I see you ignored my Challenge on a 1v1 on the PTR.
Will you accept the challenge or STFU and go find a new game?
If you are not comfortable 1v1 a 5v5 is also acceptable but 1 of each class and I would ask my guildmates to remove their G-Tene's from their gear. All up to you.
Lol I actually tried out this build on my GWF, minus tene's of course so he doesn't really have any damage to speak of lol. I'm at 34.5k (only rank 6 radiants and not all defense slots filled with them) and 38.5% deflect (53.5% with weapon master stacks!! lol) and 9.5% ish regen. He may take 20-30 seconds to kill someone but man he lives forever... and with takedown and feated flourish (extra second stun) + avalanche he has huge cc and point holding potential. This build is really fun even with no damage, it's pretty easy to see how retardedly overpowered it would be with tene's.
Lol! @ kolatmaster
Pretty much this. Lol. Its a gimmick fun build to mess with but the unkillable spec is going to have teams rolls with 2 or 3 of them to get a win.
abombination24 - I see you ignored my Challenge on a 1v1 on the PTR.
Will you accept the challenge or STFU and go find a new game?
If you are not comfortable 1v1 a 5v5 is also acceptable but 1 of each class and I would ask my guildmates to remove their G-Tene's from their gear. All up to you.
Huh. ? What challenge you speak of ?
why such anger. See what happens when you use Tene's you just become filled with rage. They control you and make you hurt. I am not playing on the PTR. Waiting for it to come out.
Lol I actually tried out this build on my GWF, minus tene's of course so he doesn't really have any damage to speak of lol. I'm at 34.5k (only rank 6 radiants and not all defense slots filled with them) and 38.5% deflect (53.5% with weapon master stacks!! lol) and 9.5% ish regen. He may take 20-30 seconds to kill someone but man he lives forever... and with takedown and feated flourish (extra second stun) + avalanche he has huge cc and point holding potential. This build is really fun even with no damage, it's pretty easy to see how retardedly overpowered it would be with tene's.
Lol! @ kolatmaster
It would be good to try and test 1v1 situations with this full build against another class with tenebrous enchant.
I don't know. To me, it looks like this tenebrous damage based on a defensive feature, looks not good. Shouldn't stack, probably. The more it stacks, the more it makes the sentinel damage get close to the DPS damage.
A destroyer have around 23k hp. When it stacks, the difference in damage is reduced more and more. It's math.
The more you stack it, the more the tanky build gets an advantage over a normal DPS build with tenebrous enchants.
So the argument that to match such build, you just have to use tenebrous too, is invalid.
At 3% tenebrous, it's (considering your "normal" 34,5k):
The more you stack it, the more the tank gain a damage advantage over the "normal" build.
Here's why it's unbalanced. Stacking it just gives a chance to break the balance.
To match it, a DPS should probably use some crit- damage increase enchant.
But, these enchants do not stack. So again, the tank+ tenebrous build gets the advantage.
It would be good to try and test 1v1 situations with this full build against another class with tenebrous enchant.
I don't know. To me, it looks like this tenebrous damage based on a defensive feature, looks not good. Shouldn't stack, probably. The more it stacks, the more it makes the sentinel damage get close to the DPS damage.
A destroyer have around 23k hp. When it stacks, the difference in damage is reduced more and more. It's math.
The more you stack it, the more the tanky build gets an advantage over a normal DPS build with tenebrous enchants.
So the argument that to match such build, you just have to use tenebrous too, is invalid.
At 3% tenebrous, it's (considering your "normal" 34,5k):
The more you stack it, the more the tank gain a damage advantage over the "normal" build.
Here's why it's unbalanced. Stacking it just gives a chance to break the balance.
To match it, a DPS should probably use some crit- damage increase enchant.
But, these enchants do not stack. So again, the tank+ tenebrous build gets the advantage.
That's my guess.
Yeah I agree, I would suggest just making only 1-2 Tene's allowed per character, that would solve most imbalances.
I am not fully geared yet though, If I had the money for 7 greater tene's I would also have the money for 5 rank 8 radiants, which I currently only have 2 rank 6's, so we're talking 38k ish HP, I think I would be nigh unkillable at that point lol thats another 400 regen per 2-3 seconds putting me over 2200 healed. I also have the feat that heals me for 5% when I use unstoppable, and I use restoring strike.
Also I used to be destroyer and while they put triple or more damage from the tanky versions they also die soooo fast if you don't stack some defense/deflection (and in turn lose some damage). 1 GF juggle generally will kill you if there is even 1 other dps, and GF can do it solo with knights challenge and 2 prones
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
This is incorrect, if GWF rolls with gr8r/perfect negation it procs immediately unlike soulforge, therefore even if you encounter a GF and he strikes first and does full combo rotation, you remain at about 85% HP when you begin your first tene proc, after that you don't get hit by much, assuming the other player had tenes aswell since now hes low on hp, this means your 2nd tene proc will be at roughly 60-70% HP which is already enough to kill.
(if you didn't kill by then its just a matter of couple secs because the other player is very low on HP).
negation enables you to proc unstoppable and be at 80% against 2 attacking players, lets say a CW + rogue, therefore you can just run straight to the cw and do your burst on him, allowing you to 1v2 easily.
Thankyou for explaining in detail how broke a GWF is. How he can't die and just will nuke you with Tene's. Perfect explanation of a unkillable build
Comments
Seriously? Do you even look at what you are typing while you type it? cuz you are obviously confused...
I said that everyone on these boards is painfully aware of your, beaten to death, stance on stealth and Rogues in general...Most don't agree with you if you haven't noticed, including the devs. Please stop posting the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over and over and stop backing up your arguments by saying things like "my friends all agree with me". Your inability to comprehend what others say to you is astounding...
Lol it has nothing to do with level playing field. Just keep missing it. It has to do with (insert word here)-Tene enchants. The player that procs first wins. It removes all skill and makes strat less of a factor. It becomes a match of RNG and whoever has the best RNG wins the match of the Tene's. If you want a level playing field don't use them. IF I am going to see a top geared vs top geared leave the tene's behind so I can actually see who has any skill. Not that anyone in this game is actually skilled as of yet and no way of proving it either. Till there are rankings and you have a win loss record.
You are boring and redundant. None of my toons except my gwf have any tenes. No greater tenes whatsoever. All of them top pvp charts regularly. That includes pugs and premades. Win or lose. The problem is with YOU and YOUR FRIENDS. Not the itemization.
This thread is HUGELY moronic in the first place. Basically made by a guy who doesnt have tene enchants who is too poor to ever afford one who heard others (who also dont have them NOR know how they work) explain how OP they are and then came to post on the forums about them...
so let me get this WHOLE thing straight... you are complaining because the BiS enchant for pvp is well... BiS?
Do you want to know HOW people with tene can tell your full of it? Because your over exaggerating how tenes work/how they proc/how often they proc AND the advantage it gives...
1st off the MORE broken thing than tene is the regen stat... THAT is what makes the Sent Spec OP, NOT the tenes... But I dont see you complaining about that...
2nd, Tene is ALREADY on a 20 sec CD so it sounds like its the same on the PTR... That said it has to proc off an attack and then another attack can see the damage... That DOESNt happen every 20 seconds... Also it procs of CURRENT hp... what does that mean? Well the less HP they have the less tene helps...
Why does that matter? Because GWFs are only uber tanks for 2 reasons...
1) Unstoppable - which MOST dont even use correctly, which requires them to TAKE DAMAGE to use
2) Regen - which only really helps the LESS hp you have.
What does this formula tell us? GWFS are RARELY if almost NEVEER at full HP, especially against GOOD players.
Regen is important because BELOW 50% HP you can get ticks upwards of 1800 every 3 seconds... but notice... BELOW 50% Hp... Thats where MOST GWFs will be against DECENT players... MAYBE in the 60-70% range but most likely not... because its the regen that is keeping them alive BELOW 50%.
So now lets do your math...
37k HP *50%*.03*7= 3,885 damage EVERY 20 seconds.... and this is what your complaining about?
At MAX Hp its 7770 which is almost never and thats is ALL proc and ALL hit...
Now... MOST people have atleast 25k HP and GWF speced regen/sent/tankmode well... their encounters CRIT for 4-6k. but WAIT!!!!! They sacrificed offensive slots for tene so they have like 20% crit!
So lets add TWO crit encounters plus FULL tene procs.... 12k+7770= call it 20k..... thats TWO crit encounters and FULL tene procs... with a 20-25mil+ AD Character.... and you didnt kill them....
and Tene is what your mad about?
I agree it needs TWEAKING but seriously... 10 pages of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because people love to talk about something they know nothing about...
I will tell you first hand you can TELL in game who good players are because tene wont kill them...
TRs stay stealth+ITC and KNOW they cant toe to toe you....
GFs - instead of trying to pew pew dps, they perma stun you so their TR or CW can pew pew your *** off and you just sit and watch it happen too.
DCs- Astral Shield and kite you around while their GF stuns you or two of their buddies come kill you
CWs - I have played VERY good CWs that can kite the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me and live for 2 min +... Can they kill me? no, but I cant kill them either...
SO NO class just gets flat out rolled if played right against tene....
Think of this:
There will ALWAYS be 1 class that NOONE can stand toe to toe with... In this game it makes SENSE thats a GWF... so maybe we need a lesson on how to play...
See a Sent GWF with Tene... maybe.... JUST dont stand toe to toe and work with your team to lock them down... Its really not hard ESPECIALLY considering its a team game NOT based on K/D ratio...
There are THREE points and FIVE people so if you do the math, you can have more than 1 person on a point...
Yes they are strong, they are BiS. YES they need a tweak, but NO they arent game breaking compared to MANY other things...
Regen for example... Knights Challenge is a HUGE cheese, so is ferocious reaction AND Stalwarts...
TLDR: QQ MOAR!!!
And this is where your argument falls apart because you are basing it on what you like and don't like but trying to present it as though you have anything approaching solid evidence.
So if it is about skill, then two teams geared up with Tene's and other high end kit are on a level playing field, therefore skill is a factor. Your RNG argument doesn't really work since everything is RNG dependent barring certain skills which can be directly influenced to always crit - such as lashing blades from stealth. Even then, there is going to be an RNG issue since 12K isn't going to one-shot anyone whereas 26K can.
If it is about strategy, which I admit I'm amazed that you're suggesting this given that you don't use your class' core mechanics of mark and block, then tene's are irrelevant. Someone who plays well and looks to always seize tactical dvantage by playing to their strengths forcing the other team to adapt is going to have the edge even over someone loaded with better gear. Sure, a new 60 with 5,700 gear score is at a MASSIVE disadvantage over someone with a 14K gear score and all of it is BiS but if they don't play like an idiot such as the CW who doesn't teleport away, the GF who doesn't block as soon as the TR enters stealth, the DC who doesn't use their AS, etc, they can give a good showing.
Again, I get the fact that you don't like Tene's. So don't use them. Work with your team. Develop strategies and tactics that work. If you want to treat Tene users the way you treat rogues and ragequit each match, abandoning your team, that's your choice also. But it is very, very hard to read your posts other than "I don't like how this works because it interferes with my goal of being the top of the DPS chart and killing the most other players" complaints.
And this.
Seriously, it's about developing the right strategies and tactics to play your class well in PvP. There isn't even just one right answer, but myriad answers based on how you enjoy playing. If none of these work for you because your enjoyment is predicated on other people conforming to additional rules that you require to have fun, then no one here can help you.
100% correct, there is one problem. The Forums are no place for a person with logic.
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Then we must change that, OCCUPY FORUM!
This is incorrect, if GWF rolls with gr8r/perfect negation it procs immediately unlike soulforge, therefore even if you encounter a GF and he strikes first and does full combo rotation, you remain at about 85% HP when you begin your first tene proc, after that you don't get hit by much, assuming the other player had tenes aswell since now hes low on hp, this means your 2nd tene proc will be at roughly 60-70% HP which is already enough to kill.
(if you didn't kill by then its just a matter of couple secs because the other player is very low on HP).
negation enables you to proc unstoppable and be at 80% against 2 attacking players, lets say a CW + rogue, therefore you can just run straight to the cw and do your burst on him, allowing you to 1v2 easily.
No if Tene's are used there is no skill in the fight. Fact
She's hot on a side note. I can tell that she doesn't like Tene's either.
When you start calling opinion, fact. You've pretty much accepted defeat. You have no arguement. Quit while you're behind.
This is another of those moments where you are using words to mean something other than what they mean. If that were a fact, then Tene's would be some sort of "game over" big red button. I think that everyone here knows that is not the case. You show up with your tene's and don't use your block, my CW locks you down and you die. You show up with your tene's and charge at my TR, he goes into stealth, stun locks you, and you die.
You want to know how to do well in PvP? I will give you the two keys to success right here: Knowing how to most effectively play your build and class, then working with your team. Tene's are just one more enchant, and one that means the person isn't deriving the benefit of other enchants.
Well 2+2 = 4
Tene's = rng wins. Yay.
I guess I draw a simple conclusion. I can't see how anyone using tene's has any skill. I mean it just robs them of it. I just made a new Alt got to 60 last night to have fun and theory craft on. If I put all tene's in his gear I kinda take any skill of a build out when playing and I know that. If I beat someone with a Tene' build and they say good fight I can just respond.
Nah I used tene's nothing good about it.
So once again it comes down to something you don't like that you don't use. Great, so don't use them. Problem solved.
Dreams are great, but come on now - dream bigger! Dream that enchantments higher than Rank 4 will drop in epic dungeons! Dream of people playing as part of a team and communicating with others!
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Lol! @ kolatmaster
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
So the question that is something MUST be modified, is does the build need to be modified or do the enchantments need to be modified. Or is this all WAI.
I think the build is pretty balanced, Yes I am super tanky, but I was killed one or two times before I could even use unstoppable with GF prone juggle + 2 dps on me. I also do such pitiful little damage that I rarely get kills, if anyone else is attacking the target they almost always get the last hit. This build makes you into a hard CC for the enemy dps, you can force them all to attack you by going after them thereby taking all of the damage for your team.
It's a pretty fun build and quite balanced damage wise on its own, but when you throw in Tene's and make the tankiest build also have huge burst it's quite overpowered. So I would have to say the enchants are the OP part.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Will you accept the challenge or STFU and go find a new game?
If you are not comfortable 1v1 a 5v5 is also acceptable but 1 of each class and I would ask my guildmates to remove their G-Tene's from their gear. All up to you.
Pretty much this. Lol. Its a gimmick fun build to mess with but the unkillable spec is going to have teams rolls with 2 or 3 of them to get a win.
Huh. ? What challenge you speak of ?
why such anger. See what happens when you use Tene's you just become filled with rage. They control you and make you hurt. I am not playing on the PTR. Waiting for it to come out.
It would be good to try and test 1v1 situations with this full build against another class with tenebrous enchant.
I don't know. To me, it looks like this tenebrous damage based on a defensive feature, looks not good. Shouldn't stack, probably. The more it stacks, the more it makes the sentinel damage get close to the DPS damage.
A destroyer have around 23k hp. When it stacks, the difference in damage is reduced more and more. It's math.
The more you stack it, the more the tanky build gets an advantage over a normal DPS build with tenebrous enchants.
So the argument that to match such build, you just have to use tenebrous too, is invalid.
At 3% tenebrous, it's (considering your "normal" 34,5k):
Sentinel= 345-350 * 3=1k damage
Destroyer= 230- 240 * 3= 700-800 damage
At 6% it's:
Sentinel= 345-350 * 6= 2k damage
Destroyer= 230-240 * 6= 1,4k damage.
At 9% it's:
Sentinel= 345-350 * 9= 3k damage
Destroyer= 230-240 * 9= 2k damage.
The more you stack it, the more the tank gain a damage advantage over the "normal" build.
Here's why it's unbalanced. Stacking it just gives a chance to break the balance.
To match it, a DPS should probably use some crit- damage increase enchant.
But, these enchants do not stack. So again, the tank+ tenebrous build gets the advantage.
That's my guess.
Yeah I agree, I would suggest just making only 1-2 Tene's allowed per character, that would solve most imbalances.
I am not fully geared yet though, If I had the money for 7 greater tene's I would also have the money for 5 rank 8 radiants, which I currently only have 2 rank 6's, so we're talking 38k ish HP, I think I would be nigh unkillable at that point lol thats another 400 regen per 2-3 seconds putting me over 2200 healed. I also have the feat that heals me for 5% when I use unstoppable, and I use restoring strike.
Also I used to be destroyer and while they put triple or more damage from the tanky versions they also die soooo fast if you don't stack some defense/deflection (and in turn lose some damage). 1 GF juggle generally will kill you if there is even 1 other dps, and GF can do it solo with knights challenge and 2 prones
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Thankyou for explaining in detail how broke a GWF is. How he can't die and just will nuke you with Tene's. Perfect explanation of a unkillable build