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PvP - Fighting from perma stealth is not balance

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  • valaxusvalaxus Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I can't believe this topic is still going , I have to ask the complainers how many other MMO's they have played, having played MMO's for about 15 years in just about everyone of them they have had stealthed rogues , even the biggest sub MMO which shall not be named. Having played it for almost 8 years before quitting the forums were exactly the same there, full of misinformation about rogues. Even after 8 years of rogue whines because of the way the rogue was designed stealth was never nerfed because that's what rogues do

    People who could not counter rogues but also plenty who could, this topic has a lot of very good information on how to counter a rogue but sadly so many of you just refuse point blank to adapt, which is sad because not only are you letting yourself down but also the team you are with.

    @Masu84 , I don't mean to be harsh m8 and please do not take it personally as you are not alone in this thread , but you really need to stop now, even players who play the same class as yourself have given you hints and tips but you just refuse to educate yourself because it's easier to cry nerf. All that concerns you is me,me,me where are your team m8's when you a being destroyed by all these rogues?

    Oh by the way I do not play a perma stealth rogue.

    I said further up in this topic I hate to see nerf cries for any class in any game unless it is God like which stealthed rogues most certainly are not. I prefer to find a way to adapt to the problem at hand and if that means reducing my damage abils so be it, that's exactly what the perma stealthed rogue has done and why I do not fear them.

    I also have to agree with Borgued3 as I have seen it many times before in games, if stealth were nerfed and good rogues adapt to the change as good rogues will ,and take you complainers down ,you will be back on here again asking for further nerfs ,because you just are not prepared to learn how to counter it.

    Please do not turn this game into a copy of the game that shall not be mentioned because it was destroyed by whiners not prepared to dare I say it "Learn To Play".

    I'm done here, now off to destroy a few perma stealthed rogues in pvp.

    Peace Out.
  • twinkjetwinkje Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 103 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    l0th4ri0 wrote: »
    You saw my stealth FAQ and just posted in it. You play a rogue. You know the long, long, laundry list of abilities in the TR class that extend stealth.

    And yet you are wondering if 100% uptime is NOT intended? :)

    Just think about it.

    It's not just a matter of powers. It also requires stat and skills stacking from spec and gear, pretty much niche gear to be honest. And we all know that, usually, when this kind of "achievement" are reached they are generally because developers overlooked such a kind of interactions when developing different things (powers, skills, feats, gear, game mechanics, etc.).

    That's how usually things go with mmorpgs and online games in general.
  • yeruneyerune Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    twinkje wrote: »
    It's not just a matter of powers. It also requires stat and skills stacking from spec and gear, pretty much niche gear to be honest.

    Well, the basic pvp gear has a 20% increase in stealth duration, I believe the GG gear has 25% and a 5% damage boost from stealth. That ties in quite nicely with the stealth increasing feats and paragon path, basically the whole idea the class is based on.

    So it sure looks like the devs are quite happy coding for more stealth.
  • coglovercoglover Member Posts: 97
    edited July 2013
    the stealth gear got 0 power on them, making the rogue useless in damage, making them useless overall
  • abombination247abombination247 Member Posts: 1,279 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    Well, the basic pvp gear has a 20% increase in stealth duration, I believe the GG gear has 25% and a 5% damage boost from stealth. That ties in quite nicely with the stealth increasing feats and paragon path, basically the whole idea the class is based on.

    So it sure looks like the devs are quite happy coding for more stealth.

    The class is based on the wrong thing then. Stealth isn't tricky. Its poor, lazy design that they need to work on. Perma stealth needs to be fixed why cause its broke. No one is happy about how broken it is.
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    Well, the basic pvp gear has a 20% increase in stealth duration, I believe the GG gear has 25% and a 5% damage boost from stealth. That ties in quite nicely with the stealth increasing feats and paragon path, basically the whole idea the class is based on.

    So it sure looks like the devs are quite happy coding for more stealth.

    I agree and it is comical to see how many players cry about rogues attacking from stealth without it breaking stealth. But my gut feeling is that to address the whining and crying, they will put in their "cryptic" solution which is just to break stealth if a rogue attacks which will break the class, and they won't address any of the rogue abilities nor make the necessary modifications to them rendering 70% of the rogue powers useless. Not to mention the new pvp gear set bonuses useless as well. But hey the crappy pvpers will be happy for half a day before they get owned by the modified rogue builds to respond to the lack of stealth.
  • valaxusvalaxus Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    No m8 , you are not happy about it as all you whine posts show, just because you have not managed to counter something in a game , does not mean it is broken, you just need to educate yourself. Plenty other classes and players can counter rogues very easily.

    I've seen about 15 years of stealth whines in games and look it's still here, maybe that should tell you something?
  • borgued3borgued3 Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 150 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    The class is based on the wrong thing then. Stealth isn't tricky. Its poor, lazy design that they need to work on. Perma stealth needs to be fixed why cause its broke. No one is happy about how broken it is.

    OMG you are right. How could we not see that rogues being based on stealth/invisibility on nearly every MMO/RPG game they existed in so far for all those years was actually the wrong thing to do. You are probably the next great prophet of games who know best what the class is about......ok i better stop my sarcasm because you may think i actually support the steaming pile of HAMSTER you just dropped right there.

    and let me fix one thing for you
    The class is based on the wrong thing then. Stealth isn't tricky. Its poor, lazy design that they need to work on. Perma stealth needs to be fixed why cause its broke. Scrubs are not happy about how broken it is to people who can't learn how to counter it.

    there, way better
  • kulgribnarkulgribnar Member Posts: 84
    edited July 2013
    twinkje wrote: »
    It's not just a matter of powers. It also requires stat and skills stacking from spec and gear, pretty much niche gear to be honest. And we all know that, usually, when this kind of "achievement" are reached they are generally because developers overlooked such a kind of interactions when developing different things (powers, skills, feats, gear, game mechanics, etc.).

    That's how usually things go with mmorpgs and online games in general.

    Some folks are still under the impression that since the soft launch aka "open beta" is over that everything is fine and working as intended. Even though at the end of open beta they released content that they had to remove for a week to fix. Then you have the GWF's buff was meant so they could facetank 3 people and roll over them. And rogues were meant to have 100% up time of stealth so they can burst or wittle down opponents health with ranged from the safety of stealth, duh!

    Hell, esteena says potions of rejuvenation are meant to be able to use in PvP. I mean comon PvP pot heals 1k hp a second over 5s duration on a 2min CD. Major potion of rejuvenation 1.2khp every 2s for 12s duration with 12s CD (if it goes on CD at all). Working as intended! :rolleyes:
  • twinkjetwinkje Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 103 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    Well, the basic pvp gear has a 20% increase in stealth duration, I believe the GG gear has 25% and a 5% damage boost from stealth. That ties in quite nicely with the stealth increasing feats and paragon path, basically the whole idea the class is based on.

    So it sure looks like the devs are quite happy coding for more stealth.

    Am I wrong or it does provide 0 (zero) recovery?
    Namely, if you don't stack a fairly huge amount of Int and recovery, which are not a main and not even a secondary skill/stat for rogues (at least here in Neverwinter), you wouldn't be able to go perma stealth.
  • filcfilc Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    twinkje wrote: »
    Am I wrong or it does provide 0 (zero) recovery?
    Namely, if you don't stack a fairly huge amount of Int and recovery, which are not a main and not even a secondary skill/stat for rogues (at least here in Neverwinter), you wouldn't be able to go perma stealth.

    You can go perma stealth even with just feats/powers. I didn't invest single point to Int and my recovery is bout ~2600.
  • kulgribnarkulgribnar Member Posts: 84
    edited July 2013
    twinkje wrote: »
    Am I wrong or it does provide 0 (zero) recovery?
    Namely, if you don't stack a fairly huge amount of Int and recovery, which are not a main and not even a secondary skill/stat for rogues (at least here in Neverwinter), you wouldn't be able to go perma stealth.

    Get out of here with your logical thinking! :mad:
  • twinkjetwinkje Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 103 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    filc wrote: »
    You can go perma stealth even with just feats/powers. I didn't invest single point to Int and my recovery is bout ~2600.

    Care to elaborate? A video would greatly help.
    Moreover 2600 recovery it's huge. You're basically offsetting the lack of int with a great recovery investment. I though it wasn't even possible to get that much recovery without a stone and with the PvP set.

    Sorry but I'm fairly sceptical.
  • abombination247abombination247 Member Posts: 1,279 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    krumple01 wrote: »
    I agree and it is comical to see how many players cry about rogues attacking from stealth without it breaking stealth. But my gut feeling is that to address the whining and crying, they will put in their "cryptic" solution which is just to break stealth if a rogue attacks which will break the class, and they won't address any of the rogue abilities nor make the necessary modifications to them rendering 70% of the rogue powers useless. Not to mention the new pvp gear set bonuses useless as well. But hey the crappy pvpers will be happy for half a day before they get owned by the modified rogue builds to respond to the lack of stealth.

    If you attack from stealth you should break stealth that is how its supposed to be. Once you reveal your position and attack then you shouldn't still be in stealth that is what is currently broken. So a fix is needed.
  • abombination247abombination247 Member Posts: 1,279 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    borgued3 wrote: »
    OMG you are right. How could we not see that rogues being based on stealth/invisibility on nearly every MMO/RPG game they existed in so far for all those years was actually the wrong thing to do. You are probably the next great prophet of games who know best what the class is about......ok i better stop my sarcasm because you may think i actually support the steaming pile of HAMSTER you just dropped right there.

    and let me fix one thing for you



    there, way better

    cute.. but /fail Rogues aren't happy about there class being lame either. Perma stealth is a unwanted mechanic.
  • filcfilc Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    twinkje wrote: »
    Care to elaborate? A video would greatly help.
    Moreover 2600 recovery it's huge. You're basically offsetting the lack of int with a great recovery investment. I though it wasn't even possible to get that much recovery without a stone and with the PvP set.

    Sorry but I'm fairly sceptical.

    PvP set is 4 items, the rest is up to you and how you want to make your build.

    Point is you don't have to do anything special to make perma-stealth build. It's pretty much part of that class.
  • twinkjetwinkje Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 103 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    filc wrote: »
    PvP set is 4 items, the rest is up to you and how you want to make your build.

    Point is you don't have to do anything special to make perma-stealth build. It's pretty much part of that class.

    I'm simply asking you to elaborate. To my knowledge you have 8 offensive slots (given that you have offensive belt/jewellery) that you can socket with 8 rank 9 silvery (260 x 8 = 2080) and then you need to have a couple of occult ring of respite and a similar belt (the best ones with 243 recovery) in order to go over 2600 recovery.

    And, to my knowledge 2.6k recovery are about 20,5% recovery speed. I guess you have at least 15 Int in order to bring shadow strike below the 19s cooldown treshold.

    Would you say this is nothing special?
  • kulgribnarkulgribnar Member Posts: 84
    edited July 2013
    you mean bait and switch to under 19s.. but attempting to rationalize with the irrational can be unrewarding :cool:
  • filcfilc Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    twinkje wrote: »
    I'm simply asking you to elaborate. To my knowledge you have 8 offensive slots (given that you have offensive belt/jewellery) that you can socket with 8 rank 9 silvery (260 x 8 = 2080) and then you need to have a couple of occult ring of respite and a similar belt (the best ones with 243 recovery) in order to go over 2600 recovery.

    And, to my knowledge 2.6k recovery are about 20,5% recovery speed. I guess you have at least 15 Int in order to bring shadow strike below the 19s cooldown treshold.

    Would you say this is nothing special?

    1) 8 slots in total, T2 items have 150 + enchants ... you don't need rank 8 or 9

    2) I didn't said, that i'm using only shadow strike, to be accurate I'm using 3 powers for that (2 encounters + daily). So I could prolly be ok with even less recovery and still be able to perma-stealth. More recovery helps me when I need to escape from battle (smoke bomb).

    so yeah, nothing special, anyone can spec like that
  • twinkjetwinkje Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 103 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    you mean bait and switch to under 19s.. but attempting to rationalize with the irrational can be unrewarding :cool:

    Yes, I was clearly talking about BnS, sorry :(
    filc wrote: »
    1) 8 slots in total, T2 items have 150 + enchants ... you don't need rank 8 or 9

    2) I didn't said, that i'm using only shadow strike, to be accurate I'm using 3 powers for that (2 encounters + daily). So I could prolly be ok with even less recovery and still be able to perma-stealth. More recovery helps me when I need to escape from battle (smoke bomb).

    so yeah, nothing special, anyone can spec like that

    I think you don't really understand the deepest meaning of "permanent" stealth because dailies are usually not taken into account given how much unreliably you can refill them.
    Moreover I'm not sure about what T2 are you referring to: PvP or PvE? Because PvP doesn't give any recover while the PvE ones don't provide the 25% increased stealth meter which, in turn, means that you need even more recovery.

    You are basically running a regular TR build with some nicely extended stealth but, from the data provided so far, you're not permanent (and you suffer some huge DPS penalties as well).
    I'd still need some accurate information to better elaborate it thou.
  • filcfilc Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    twinkje wrote: »
    I think you don't really understand the deepest meaning of "permanent" stealth because dailies are usually not taken into account given how much unreliably you can refill them.
    Moreover I'm not sure about what T2 are you referring to: PvP or PvE? Because PvP doesn't give any recover while the PvE ones don't provide the 25% increased stealth meter which, in turn, means that you need even more recovery.

    You are basically running a regular TR build with some nicely extended stealth but, from the data provided so far, you're not permanent (and you suffer some huge DPS penalties as well).
    I'd still need some accurate information to better elaborate it thou.

    T2 rings, neck, belts, weapons all you can get with recovery on. *facepalm*

    My build is pretty much PvP set + Shadow Strike and BnS + bit of recovery + proper feats -> perma stealth. And i use that daily, when it's ready. That's it.

    I do enough dmg to kill or annoy ppl in PvP.
  • vortix44vortix44 Member Posts: 680 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    we all are aware that TRs are already the PvP masters
    If this was true, most players would be TRs.
    English is not my first language.
  • abombination247abombination247 Member Posts: 1,279 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    vortix44 wrote: »
    If this was true, most players would be TRs.


    Most players are TR's /face palm
  • kattefjaeskattefjaes Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2,270 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    vortix44 wrote: »
    If this was true, most players would be TRs.

    I think the expression is "Q.E.D.".
  • twinkjetwinkje Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 103 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    filc wrote: »
    T2 rings, neck, belts, weapons all you can get with recovery on. *facepalm*

    My build is pretty much PvP set + Shadow Strike and BnS + bit of recovery + proper feats -> perma stealth. And i use that daily, when it's ready. That's it.

    I do enough dmg to kill or annoy ppl in PvP.

    Are you confident with your recovery score? You may have a little more recovery from off hand but yet we're lacking about 350 recovery from the 2.6k (185 x 8 + 150 x 4 + 193 = 2273, I don't actually know how much recovery can have T2 belts, I assumed it's 150).

    I'm sorry but I still have some doubt about how much "permanent" you can call it because that recovery score on it's own is simply not enough. You rely on your daily but truth is, with CoS, BnS and SS you won't refill it that easy.
  • huckasevenhuckaseven Banned Users Posts: 470 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Most players are TR's /face palm

    source or gtfo
  • quitegonejinquitegonejin Member Posts: 3
    edited July 2013
    This thread and all who cry for nerfs need to die before they kill a balanced class. Only class needing tweaks is love for the CW and nerfs for the GWF's tab. Nothing else here needs to be considered. At all.
  • abombination247abombination247 Member Posts: 1,279 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    huckaseven wrote: »
    source or gtfo

    We need a source to know water is wet, the sky is blue, everyone has a TR even you......
  • huckasevenhuckaseven Banned Users Posts: 470 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    so you have no source...so just another troll attempt...well, at least you confirmed that yourself
  • tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Nevermind the rogues, I'm getting fed up of 3 sent-gef teams roflstomping in PvP. Can't CC them, can't damage them, can't stop them when they run to a pot. PvP has never felt more lame.
    RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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