Advice about guildies is sadly the norm in this game, you must have friends that can beat trash and kite, since that is all these dungeons are, trash adds and kiting, nothing new, no puzzles, no creativity, no riddles, nothing but kiting the boss and killing zillions of adds at certain health percentages. until the developers are given the cash to stretch their programming legs you get the cheap dungeon mechanics made for the select masses. Nothing you can do about it.
Well said, that the sad reality, you can add that every classes are not naturally adapted to do the content, unless you dig, play trial and error, to realize there's just too much broken, useless or underpower feats/powers unless you find out the good combinations out of it. The game has been rushed, it's nothing new in the mmorpg market, some game manage to get out of it, some don't, i give them the chance to fix their things first, by at least fix whats broken and i hope the devs have a plan and are working on something with all the feedback they had.
Agree with the OP.
The difficulty of Dungeons shoots up very suddenly and makes it crazy hard for pug groups to be successful. I don't believe Neverwinter is the kind of game that is going to attract hardcore players/raiding guilds, so pug should remain a viable option. At the moment it isn't.
This guy right here? He speaks nothing but pure truth. Honestly, if you don't want them to be pugged just remove them from the que. Some of these regulars are bad enough, but the epics can be as bad as the heroics from WoW's Burning Crusade xpac. You had to get raid gear before you could run some of that stuff before they nerfed it. What did you get from those overtuned heroics? That's right, blue junk. Guild or otherwise, it was near impossible to get runs for those hellholes.
All that said, if you've got a regular dungeon people avoid(Mad Dragon) like the plague it only gets worse epicwise. Content people avoid is bad business. Tone it down, make it accessible, profit.....
This guy right here? He speaks nothing but pure truth. Honestly, if you don't want them to be pugged just remove them from the que. Some of these regulars are bad enough, but the epics can be as bad as the heroics from WoW's Burning Crusade xpac. You had to get raid gear before you could run some of that stuff before they nerfed it. What did you get from those overtuned heroics? That's right, blue junk. Guild or otherwise, it was near impossible to get runs for those hellholes.
All that said, if you've got a regular dungeon people avoid(Mad Dragon) like the plague it only gets worse epicwise. Content people avoid is bad business. Tone it down, make it accessible, profit.....
I think it's already announced Mad dragon will be tuned down.
1. Lose the trash in dungeons. Taking out the garbage is a chore, not a good time, duh!
2. Lose 50% of the adds in boss fights.
3. Make dungeons shorter, 3 bosses, short run between.
I have to also agree with the OP. I play this game with one other friend and we cannot clear the last boss in Wolf's Den because of the tank or heals dying.
We are getting frustrated and are about to stop cueing for dungeons.... PVP is broken and sucks, so we are down to questing and scenarios. Not much else to do then.
Lair of Mad Dragon as well as Wolf Den both need retuned for casual Pick up group play. You leave the end game material challenging but still doable by casual players who want a challenge but not like what we have right now with those two dungeons I mentioned. I don't consider this games boss mechanics or dungeon design as (raiding). It reminds me way more of Diablo hack-n-slash type game than any mmo I've ever played.
The whole object of each boss fight in this game is summed up with two words, (AOE, and ADDS). Those are the only two things you get in the entire game for end game boss mechanics. The big bad boss craps out lots of Aoe damage as well as adds, and it's the players jobs to avoid not only the bosses aoe but the mobs aoe as well.
There is No reason low level dungeons need to be as tough as The lair of the mad dragon or the wolf den. You don't throw up massive brick walls for players starting out to bash their head against why they try and finish up a quest that requires them to go in to one of these dungeons.
If anything you start out simple, new players introduced to these dungeons, their mechanics, and how to beat them. Then later on you up the difficulty for end game content and make that where players will do better being in a guild.
Anyways, thats my opinion on this subject.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
The thing is - when you include a "random queue" system in your game, you're strongly suggesting that the content one randomly queues for..... should have a reasonable chance of being completed by a random group thrown together by that queue.
If a game intends that dungeons should be "hard", or are balanced around forming set groups, then you shouldn't include a random queue system at all.
Do not forget, the 'random Q' is indeed random as well. I have ended up trying to do MD without a healer or tank before. There is no reason for dungeons to be like this if even the Q can not be smart enough to include classes you would need for it.
1. Lose the trash in dungeons. Taking out the garbage is a chore, not a good time, duh!
2. Lose 50% of the adds in boss fights.
3. Make dungeons shorter, 3 bosses, short run between.
i have another suggestion too.. its ok for me to have a very loooooooooooooooooong dungeon run, but no garbage items. Ex. 5 boss in 1 dungeon run and each boss will give epic items
i have another suggestion too.. its ok for me to have a very loooooooooooooooooong dungeon run, but no garbage items. Ex. 5 boss in 1 dungeon run and each boss will give epic items
Sounds good to me. Fun and rewarding boss fights are great, garbage and tedium in between is an insult.
90% of the game is easy breezy casual friendly. At least leave us the dungeon delves for people who like the hard stuff.
Or, and this is just my view on it, the difficulty could scale at higher level, instead of being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> at mid level then breeze worthy at higher level.
I just want them do cut down the number of adds that spawn in a boss fight...
If they dont want to do that, then atleast reduce the adds HP and damage output..
I love the way the dungeons are currently. The only thing I could say to improve the experience, is making more traps, making traps dangerous, making class skills provide additional benefits such as opening secret passage ways, locked chests, and making all these things a bit more randomized/dymanic.
In addition i think the final bosses need to have more actual difficulty rather than the artificial difficulty of just throwing more minions at you.
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hkfrenchtoastMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
Dungeons before 30 lvl are just fine, or even too easy. For eg. I did Cragmire Crypts with my friend mage + healer (we all were at 31 lvl). To be honest with 3 players it wasnt even hard.
In few first instances I had also problems with bad healers but past lvl 35-40, the healers were pretty good so far. With good healer you dont even need a tank most of time.
You might have think that I'm bragging or something. It wasnt the intention, just pointing out whats going on. I have pretty good expearience in past games, and I understand that not everyone will play on the same lvl in first lvls of completly new game.
I played wow for almost 3-4 years (gladiator few times etc), I'm Diamond 1 on both servers in League of Legends, etc etc.
I just want to point out that most of the instances can be done if ppl wouldnt want that hard. Or if they would at least read some guide how to make boss (which realy helps out if you arent so smart to think by yourself a great strategy, sometimes nether do I'm).
I would like if the game could stay as it is. Its not very like (for eg. like WoW during classic was), and its not that easy (how WoW is for eg. now during lvling).
Oh, another one of those people that think they are so good when they deal so much damage as a Rogue. sigh.
I think the only dungeon I haven't beat yet is the Mad Dragon one and Frozen Heart (never went in it). Wolf Den is pretty easy once you learn how to dodge the red circle (Don't use those skills that take forever to cast -require you to stand still for a period of time) Your team also needs to focus on taking down the adds.
-The first time I ran this dungeon...Everyone but me and this cleric died. The boss was like a quarter hp. We managed to beat it but it took another 10 min. This boss requires patience and tons of Potions, especially when everyone else is dead and only 2-3 people are left.
I think a lot of the complaints here and there just stem from how (at least for rogue/cleric) the entire spec is dependant on literally 1 skill. Right now rogue is all about Duelist's Flurry and Cleric is all about Astral Shield. Anyone playing them and not using one of those abilities is hurting their team and generally just not doing it right because those abilities are so overpowered. To a certain extent GF and CW have this too (Knight's Valor and Wormhole). Really the game is just poorly balanced right now. Some abilities are just wayyy too good, and they don't seem to have any great plans so far to bring the others up to par.
Man I know I am going to get some flames and shrill shrieks from the elitists, but seriously, the dungeons post L30 or so are just too hard for casual players.
I have not finished a final boss in any queued pickup group since craigemire crypts. After several dozen fails on several characters, I have pretty much just stopped queueing dungeons. I will be the first to admit, I can not always get out end boss AE. A second hesitation usually gets me knocked down inside a red circle and burned down to 25% health. But even if I somehow make no mistakes in a 20 minute fight, there are 4 other casual players who have to remain alive.
The average group will give it 3 goes before people rage quit or run out of pots/kits. I am normally against dumbing down a game to make it EZ mode, but I have to say these dungeons seem like EPIC hard mode encounters without much margin for error.
I really like to see them tuned down.
In the new patch All Dragons will have reduced HP and specifically the Adds in the normal version of Mad dragon are being nerfed
I am normally against dumbing down a game to make it EZ mode...
Are you?
God I hope these devs aren't like SOE's devs. They don't mind at all to ruin a game for everyone who likes a challenge as long as it makes the whiners stop whining.
God I hope these devs aren't like SOE's devs. They don't mind at all to ruin a game for everyone who likes a challenge as long as it makes the whiners stop whining.
Yes, I am.
I hate it when they dumb down elite/epic/nightmare level dungeons to make it so anyone can walk thru them. But I am not suggesting dumbing down the hardcore content. I am suggesting making the casual content, well...casual.
When the majority of PUG groups mid game stop queuing mid game dungeons because the average group can not finish it, you have a design problem.
If you beat the mid game dungeons with your group of friends, you have my respect and all. But the bottom line is PWE lost a possible sale for a health stone this week cause I frankly had no use for one, as I was not trying to do a dungeon anymore.
Too often in my 6 years of playing MMOs the devs have responded to these types of comments to the point that the game becomes boring. Yes I don't like it when I make a mistake and we wipe, it is difficult to not respond fast enough because of a cool down, or a disabling effect and we wipe, but man does it feel good when it goes well. The content is not too easy yet it is doable. Most of the time at higher levels the groups are not going through the que, they are forming from LFG in chat channels or guilds. I was lucky once to get the Mad Dragon with an experienced, serious PUG, that was AWESOME SAUCE. Idris I ran with guildies. Ive tried to que for Cragmire and that was frustrating. Not because of the content the people just started dropping and there is not a mechanism to repopulate the group from que so after a half hour we had to give up. Our guild is almost ready to run the content epics and I hope others will do the same, and that PWE will not mess with things to the point that the challenge and the fulfillment from accomplishing it are diminished.
Too often in my 6 years of playing MMOs the devs have responded to these types of comments to the point that the game becomes boring. Yes I don't like it when I make a mistake and we wipe, it is difficult to not respond fast enough because of a cool down, or a disabling effect and we wipe, but man does it feel good when it goes well. The content is not too easy yet it is doable. Most of the time at higher levels the groups are not going through the que, they are forming from LFG in chat channels or guilds. I was lucky once to get the Mad Dragon with an experienced, serious PUG, that was AWESOME SAUCE. Idris I ran with guildies. Ive tried to que for Cragmire and that was frustrating. Not because of the content the people just started dropping and there is not a mechanism to repopulate the group from que so after a half hour we had to give up. Our guild is almost ready to run the content epics and I hope others will do the same, and that PWE will not mess with things to the point that the challenge and the fulfillment from accomplishing it are diminished.
I can certainly appreciate your position. I have been playing MMO for twice as long as you (since 1998) and I agree that devs are more likely to tone down difficulty level rather than not when people complain. As for the mid-level dungeons you underscore my point when you stated:
" I was lucky once to get the Mad Dragon with an experienced, serious PUG, that was AWESOME SAUCE. "
My position, and I would think the goal of the design team, would be that a mid level, non epic, dungeon to not require you to be lucky enough to get in a group capable of doing it. It should be that rarely you are in a group that is UNLUCKY enough that they couldnt complete it.
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vexor22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
I just did wolfden with 4 CWs and myself as a cleric. We wiped once on the final boss, mostly because we had some new people to the dungeon. It basically does boil down to strategy and teamwork, exactly what an awesome game of tabletop D&D would do.
At the time, the two hardest dungeons I encountered at level, while pugging, were Mad Dragon and Grey Wolf and I really enjoyed the challenge of beating them. The dungeons after (including Dread Vault) were fairly easy in comparison to the two mentioned.
Just finished The Pirate King (normal) on a second try. First PUG was a fail, I outdps-ed everyone by 500k (having a 3k GS toon) we wiped at boss 2 times and peeps started leaving. Second time I teamed some people from Zone chat asking for party. We had a good healer.
Whew ! Finished the boss with 3 people, me (GWF) DC, CW, again me dealing most damage ... still having pre-nerf Slam is great. Too bad they are gonna nerf it now. Yes, some dodging and repositioning was involded, so former FPS por TPS players have an advantage ... and that's great.
The problem is not that dungeons ar hard. The problem is that the normal solo content is too easy, and you are able to level up to 60 only playing solo content. But remember that this is a MMOG not a single player RPG.
Content should not be designed for a random PUG of soloers who have never played in a team before. The problem is that they have the option to just do this. This is like having a door to a fight club directly on the street advertised as a caffeteria, and the first 5 people who get in have to run a life and death gauntlet.
Something that requires teamwork and player interaction should not be blamed as too hard in a multiplayer game.
Whatever we deny or embrace, we belong togheter./ Pat Benatar
Comments
Well said, that the sad reality, you can add that every classes are not naturally adapted to do the content, unless you dig, play trial and error, to realize there's just too much broken, useless or underpower feats/powers unless you find out the good combinations out of it. The game has been rushed, it's nothing new in the mmorpg market, some game manage to get out of it, some don't, i give them the chance to fix their things first, by at least fix whats broken and i hope the devs have a plan and are working on something with all the feedback they had.
This guy right here? He speaks nothing but pure truth. Honestly, if you don't want them to be pugged just remove them from the que. Some of these regulars are bad enough, but the epics can be as bad as the heroics from WoW's Burning Crusade xpac. You had to get raid gear before you could run some of that stuff before they nerfed it. What did you get from those overtuned heroics? That's right, blue junk. Guild or otherwise, it was near impossible to get runs for those hellholes.
All that said, if you've got a regular dungeon people avoid(Mad Dragon) like the plague it only gets worse epicwise. Content people avoid is bad business. Tone it down, make it accessible, profit.....
I think it's already announced Mad dragon will be tuned down.
1. Lose the trash in dungeons. Taking out the garbage is a chore, not a good time, duh!
2. Lose 50% of the adds in boss fights.
3. Make dungeons shorter, 3 bosses, short run between.
Cut to the chase, stop wasting our time.
We are getting frustrated and are about to stop cueing for dungeons.... PVP is broken and sucks, so we are down to questing and scenarios. Not much else to do then.
The whole object of each boss fight in this game is summed up with two words, (AOE, and ADDS). Those are the only two things you get in the entire game for end game boss mechanics. The big bad boss craps out lots of Aoe damage as well as adds, and it's the players jobs to avoid not only the bosses aoe but the mobs aoe as well.
There is No reason low level dungeons need to be as tough as The lair of the mad dragon or the wolf den. You don't throw up massive brick walls for players starting out to bash their head against why they try and finish up a quest that requires them to go in to one of these dungeons.
If anything you start out simple, new players introduced to these dungeons, their mechanics, and how to beat them. Then later on you up the difficulty for end game content and make that where players will do better being in a guild.
Anyways, thats my opinion on this subject.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
Do not forget, the 'random Q' is indeed random as well. I have ended up trying to do MD without a healer or tank before. There is no reason for dungeons to be like this if even the Q can not be smart enough to include classes you would need for it.
agree ... +1
Sounds good to me. Fun and rewarding boss fights are great, garbage and tedium in between is an insult.
yeah right making it worthwhile and exciting. seriously dungeons at the current are quite boring. you killed the first one gives you diapers
why not have a difficulty level? just a suggestion.
Or, and this is just my view on it, the difficulty could scale at higher level, instead of being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> at mid level then breeze worthy at higher level.
If they dont want to do that, then atleast reduce the adds HP and damage output..
In addition i think the final bosses need to have more actual difficulty rather than the artificial difficulty of just throwing more minions at you.
Oh, another one of those people that think they are so good when they deal so much damage as a Rogue. sigh.
I think the only dungeon I haven't beat yet is the Mad Dragon one and Frozen Heart (never went in it). Wolf Den is pretty easy once you learn how to dodge the red circle (Don't use those skills that take forever to cast -require you to stand still for a period of time) Your team also needs to focus on taking down the adds.
-The first time I ran this dungeon...Everyone but me and this cleric died. The boss was like a quarter hp. We managed to beat it but it took another 10 min. This boss requires patience and tons of Potions, especially when everyone else is dead and only 2-3 people are left.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
In the new patch All Dragons will have reduced HP and specifically the Adds in the normal version of Mad dragon are being nerfed
Are you?
God I hope these devs aren't like SOE's devs. They don't mind at all to ruin a game for everyone who likes a challenge as long as it makes the whiners stop whining.
Yes, I am.
I hate it when they dumb down elite/epic/nightmare level dungeons to make it so anyone can walk thru them. But I am not suggesting dumbing down the hardcore content. I am suggesting making the casual content, well...casual.
When the majority of PUG groups mid game stop queuing mid game dungeons because the average group can not finish it, you have a design problem.
If you beat the mid game dungeons with your group of friends, you have my respect and all. But the bottom line is PWE lost a possible sale for a health stone this week cause I frankly had no use for one, as I was not trying to do a dungeon anymore.
I can certainly appreciate your position. I have been playing MMO for twice as long as you (since 1998) and I agree that devs are more likely to tone down difficulty level rather than not when people complain. As for the mid-level dungeons you underscore my point when you stated:
" I was lucky once to get the Mad Dragon with an experienced, serious PUG, that was AWESOME SAUCE. "
My position, and I would think the goal of the design team, would be that a mid level, non epic, dungeon to not require you to be lucky enough to get in a group capable of doing it. It should be that rarely you are in a group that is UNLUCKY enough that they couldnt complete it.
http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=913661
At the time, the two hardest dungeons I encountered at level, while pugging, were Mad Dragon and Grey Wolf and I really enjoyed the challenge of beating them. The dungeons after (including Dread Vault) were fairly easy in comparison to the two mentioned.
Whew ! Finished the boss with 3 people, me (GWF) DC, CW, again me dealing most damage ... still having pre-nerf Slam is great. Too bad they are gonna nerf it now. Yes, some dodging and repositioning was involded, so former FPS por TPS players have an advantage ... and that's great.
The problem is not that dungeons ar hard. The problem is that the normal solo content is too easy, and you are able to level up to 60 only playing solo content. But remember that this is a MMOG not a single player RPG.
Content should not be designed for a random PUG of soloers who have never played in a team before. The problem is that they have the option to just do this. This is like having a door to a fight club directly on the street advertised as a caffeteria, and the first 5 people who get in have to run a life and death gauntlet.
Something that requires teamwork and player interaction should not be blamed as too hard in a multiplayer game.