People find these instances hard mostly due to fact that they are lacking dmg.
I'm playing rogue by myself mostly with my friend who plays mage. I have like 5 fps for most of the time in instances and even tho im doing like 75% of team total DMG (when im not playing with my friend).
Example? Good would be the normal case in almost every dungeon. I dealt 500k dmg, in same moment another mage & rogue havent even passed 150k dmg dealt. Situation get worse and worse after the time ... When i usually have 2M dmg dealt they are barely hiting 800k-1M. My friend who plays mage is usually like 100k under me or sometimes higher than me (depends mostly if there is lots of aoe or not).
I have seen that in dungeon like Idris with my rogue. At 40 something i was doing double damage some guy which a few level above. I also so that with my cleric last week in GWD.
I don't think it is necessary skill, it can very well be that you just have plain better weapon or equipment.
Heh... i consider myself a mixture between hardcore player and casual one... i play for fun but i take fun seriously ^_^, i agree with both sides here... Dungeons must be hard and challenging... but not to the point to frustration for most people... and that happens with MD and GWD, must say i overleveled those while questing my first toon (GF) but played them with 4-5 levels over as pug and were doable, (yet i still fail at defeating MD as epic in pugs!) problem seems to be addressed in patch, and that's good.
Anyway mechanics of final bosses in NW are kind of lame, only somehow different ones are Dread vault (the other single one ive been unable to beat in epic difficulty pugging) and spellplague caverns (really easy in normal, doable in epic as pug), the gazillion hitpoints, deadly AoE red zone damage, little to no AI, and millions of tough adds, then more of those, then gazillion of even tougher ones is frustrating and boring after a few runs...
(luckyly, seemed in the trailer that GG will be a little different, one can only hope)
To the guy of karrundax group, that dragon aint that hard, is easier than mad dragon in fact just kill the hellfire mages, 2 big waves of adds (66% and 33% life) in first one, go all in to erinyes, then hellfires, then repeat till second wave, when the shocktroper comes, kill him asap, then erinyes, then kill the boss... doable!
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cichardMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
For me, it's not about avoiding challenge. It's about the stupidity of a design that requires your character to DIE in order to learn.
Here's how I would do it: I would reduce the difficulty of everything by 50%. Then, every character gets ONE chance at every encounter, success or failure. That character can never again even attempt that content. Now we're getting closer to what D&D is all about.
its a dungeon que system... not a looking for group system... the name says it all. its a que whats a que... a line... whats a dungeon an instance to kill mobs and bosses get gear.. so its a line to get in side the instances.... Looking for group tool.. is a tool to build a group.. again what it is ment to be used for is in the name. X amount of groups can be in the instances at a time.. Ive had to wait 15min before in que with a pick up group of 5 people. This was because the instances was full and we were qued while the system waited for an opening in the dungeon. Its obv how the system works.
I'm sorry, but I don't find that to be obvious at all.
(and I know I'm not the only one - in every zone, I see people in chat trying to form groups, only to have multiple people say "why aren't you using the queue?" "Does no-one use the queue anymore? That's how you get groups.")
...actually, if the tool were meant for the queueing of complete groups, then it would return a "Sorry, you have to be a group of 5 to queue" error when you tried to enter the queue as a single.
I'm glad this conversation is happening and honestly The developers need to read this thread, because it is a reflection of what is real and what is perceived in the MMo industry. I have seen many people quit one MMo after another in sheer frustration because they are getting the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> kicked out of them for whatever reason. That is lost revenue, hurt feelings and a unwillingness to come back or try a new product from that developer again.
the community is of zero help because as soon as one person dares to point out that the King has no clothes screams of Learn 2 Play begin, which is hyperbole at it's finest. Hell I have seen people who have just as rough a time shout learn 2 play because they don't want to be perceived as a **** by the "cool kids" it's the high school lunch table BS all over again.
There are workable answers a difficulty slider for one that gives less XP and perhaps not the very best gear (but worthwhile gear) or the can improve the horrid AI and let you bring more than one companion which would cost you a cut of what you receive and a reduced XP gain, but you are not dismissing a growing demographic that is going to pay for some product just not yours if you keep giving them the finger.
I'm sorry, but I don't find that to be obvious at all.
(and I know I'm not the only one - in every zone, I see people in chat trying to form groups, only to have multiple people say "why aren't you using the queue?" "Does no-one use the queue anymore? That's how you get groups.")
...actually, if the tool were meant for the queueing of complete groups, then it would return a "Sorry, you have to be a group of 5 to queue" error when you tried to enter the queue as a single.
its obv the first time you que via it and it gives you 3 TRS 2 CWs......
its a tool that puts the first 5 people in a group as if they are waiting in a line to ride a roller coaster.. its not a lfg tool to build a group. Make a group then que for the instance, its as simple as that.
Some encounters does need tuning and rebalance but all in all TBH I don't find T2 dungeons that difficult at all. Some encounters are just ridiculously and horribly imbalanced (like the Hrmnir fight and Mad Dragon). Most dungeons are just tediously long. How about we cut epic dungeon runs to 1 hour and if you need to limit the runs maybe just put a cap like each epic dungeon can be run 3 times per day.
Man I know I am going to get some flames and shrill shrieks from the elitists, but seriously, the dungeons post L30 or so are just too hard for casual players.
I have not finished a final boss in any queued pickup group since craigemire crypts. After several dozen fails on several characters, I have pretty much just stopped queueing dungeons. I will be the first to admit, I can not always get out end boss AE. A second hesitation usually gets me knocked down inside a red circle and burned down to 25% health. But even if I somehow make no mistakes in a 20 minute fight, there are 4 other casual players who have to remain alive.
The average group will give it 3 goes before people rage quit or run out of pots/kits. I am normally against dumbing down a game to make it EZ mode, but I have to say these dungeons seem like EPIC hard mode encounters without much margin for error.
I really like to see them tuned down.
O.O srsly... i feel like i can afk in these an be fine
FearITsSelf#1 GF From #1 Guild Pve/Pvp [ Lemonade Stand ]
Am i the only one enjoying a good wipe (or more, **** we wiped an entire month on Byzola !!)
besides, if mmo's encounter were not a bit hard and needed a bit of learning, we d never had Onyxia wipe ! and that one makes me laugh every time i listen to it ... hop i ll go and check it out once more :
People are just too impatient nowadays. I remember when learning the Onyxia fight we wiped like 50 times. I can't imagine kids nowadays having the patience for that. Probably /ragequit at the first wipe.
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cichardMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
People are just too impatient nowadays. I remember when learning the Onyxia fight we wiped like 50 times. I can't imagine kids nowadays having the patience for that. Probably /ragequit at the first wipe.
exactly this... if they want dungeons to be easy....
> foundry that way
exactly this... if they want dungeons to be easy....
> foundry that way
Fine let them release all the assets, including end game bosses and the ability to create our own, the ability to plug scripts and cinematics in, and the ability to share a project with your team. I fracking promise you no one will be bothering with the so called official content.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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xzaozinxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
Personally, I really like the dungeons. The only thing that drives me nuts is that every main boss you kill the adds stay behind. That is just stupid. I can understand a couple of bosses that way, but EVERY boss? It is like you do all this hard work to kill the boss then you get slapped silly with all these adds left behind that seem longer to kill lol. But seriously, look for a good guild. I am in MOPP4, we always have an average of 20+ people in teamspeak and we always have 2-4 groups always running dungeon runs. Especially the T2 Epics. So that definitely makes a big difference of being in a guild. I find most people who que are just now learning the dungeons and that can be frustrating if you keep getting stuck with those types of pug groups.
You know what’s hard? Trying to build a dungeon to a specific skill level and set such that it is just as hard as you want it to be. That’s hard. Ask anyone who has made graduated Foundry content. Some encounters that you worked so hard on are way harder than you thought they would be when you were sitting back in your chair and thinking about it while puzzles and encounters you planned to be tricky just get gobbled up as if they weren’t even there.
Building a dungeon is hard and tuning them requires specific changes. So if you want the developers to make specific changes let them know what specifically is causing the trouble. You don’t have to be accurate to the square foot or list every single thing but giving them some place to start would be appreciated I am certain.
So “This is too hard” might not be as helpful as “In the turn right before we get to the bridge, having mobs with massive knockback there is really too much.” Totally fictitious examples but you get the idea.
Help them to help you.
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cichardMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Which has what maybe fifty people logged on on a good day? :rolleyes:
Fine let them release all the assets, including end game bosses and the ability to create our own, the ability to plug scripts and cinematics in, and the ability to share a project with your team. I fracking promise you no one will be bothering with the so called official content.
whats it matter if you just want to look at things and they die??? its not like the cinematics in game are awesome its a picture of hte boss standing there
OP u might try building a group in the zone chat, get 4 people who are also social and ready to talk strategy and u have like 95% win ratio. I usualy do this and i cant remember the last time i dident finish a boss in public game.
Most people who really wanna down the boss arent qeueing anywayz, they are also looking in zone chat for motivated people like u.
Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
Why change it? If they listened to every carebear the dungeons could be solo'd. The best part of MMOs is the progression and satisfaction of finally being able to do end game stuff for a lot of players. The frustration for me is when I haven't been somewhere and this group of "awesome" players say lets do a speed run. They fail with noobs because they don't tell them what to do and rage quit if they die more than 2 times. When I was playing EQ2 and running things with newer players I would always explain how to defeat an instance. Made more friends and had way more fun that way. Don't blame the game. Blame the players that are unwilling to learn and the wanna be "elite" for not taking the time with someone new.
Let me throw in my two cents. Dungeons are hard. They are meant to be. The answer is not to make everything easier. The rest of the game, with a few exceptions, is fairly easy. If you are looking for easy content, do regular game content and most of the Skirmishes. For Dungeons, it is OK to wipe, several times even. Deal is, if you are not going to go in with a ton of potions and injury kits so that you are prepared for this eventuality, it is unfair to the rest of the group. Do not go into a Dungeon if you are not willing to try the end boss several times. Especially with a pug.
There are strategies for every boss that work. The guy that mentioned Karrudux for example, I've done that one a bunch of times and the key is a good cleric who can keep up AS and dodge, having someone body guard said cleric, ideally a good CW who can help manage adds, and one other player on adds. TR on dragon, just pounding and pounding and pounding. If there is ever a time where adds are manageable, one person can help TR. It takes patience. If you get impatient you wipe.
Dread Vault is much the same. I had done that one a dozen times with no success. Then someone showed me the strategy and I've even beat it twice with no CW in party which some people said was impossible. Again, it takes patience and strategy and everyone has got to be on the same page.
If you are in a group that won't communicate, my suggestion is leave at the beginning and requeue. I've been lucky to find many great pug groups.
People are just too impatient nowadays. I remember when learning the Onyxia fight we wiped like 50 times. I can't imagine kids nowadays having the patience for that. Probably /ragequit at the first wipe.
I remember when you could add new players to groups without starting over if you wiped for a couple hours and someone had to log.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
I am actually a fan of “hardmode” and “normal” content.
By saying I am a casual player I am also saying that I understand that I don’t put in as much time and effort as the elitists. I don’t have the best stuff and I just don’t have time to devote to a schedule of raiding and acquisition.
But is there a way that I too can at least see some of this content, can I have a chance to pug into something without it being certain doom every single time?
Sure there is. Run your quests on normal mode, you get to see the dungeons, the monsters and the action. You get a shot at decent loot and with enough focus you can get up to the gearscore needed for a real group if you ever lose your job.
But if you have a crack commando unit sent to the stockade for a crime they didn’t commit, who escaped and are now on the run in the Neverwinter underground surviving as soldiers of fortune; if you have a dungeon…and no one else can help…and if you can find them…maybe you can hire…the D-team
My suggestion would be to get a couple of friends together and over level a bit for the dungeon, then go back to the physical entrance and shortman it. It'll let you take the opportunity to explore, communicate a bit with your party, and have a nice fight. My friends and I are working our way through them and it's likely going to take some of the really good gear for the last dungeons before epics. Downside is, you won't be able to try that with the epic versions, which is unfortunate.
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited June 2013
I never had too many problems with normal dungeons, except Dread Vault (that really seems overtuned, it's harder than most T1 epics, that's just wrong). But that could have been me being lucky with group composition and no quitters. But then again, I'm also no casual player either...
I understand that if the lfg tool is not fixed, "unbalanced" groups and ragequitters can make life in dungeons hell for casual players, heck some of that makes life hell for hardcore players too, but I suppose the different expectations in time invested in the game end up being the big difference in the end-result.
While I agree with the sentiment of the OP, perhaps fixing the lfg tool and a proper balance patch (hopefully both are well addressed in next patch) should come before the plain old "nerfing" of the instances. If the two things mentioned above are not enough, then "case by case" nerfs could be taken in consideration.
Personally I never had much problem with normal dungeons, except Dread Vault (that really seems overtuned, it's harder than most T1 epics, that's just wrong). But that could have been me being lucky with group composition and no quitters. But then again, I'm also no casual player either...
I understand that if the lfg tool is not fixed, "unbalanced" groups and ragequitters can make life in dungeons hell for casual players, heck some of that makes life hell for hardcore players too, but I suppose the different expectations in time invested in the game end up being the big difference in the end-result.
While I agree with the sentiment of the OP, perhaps fixing the lfg tool and a proper balance patch (hopefully both are well addressed the 20th June) should come before the plain old "nerfing" of the instances. Then, if the two things are mentioned above are not enough, then a "case by case" nerfs could be taken in consideration.
Tuning and parity in NW are all kinds of crazy. There are t1 boss fights harder then some t2 boss fights.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Just because the majority of people who you end up playing with are half wit <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, does not mean the dungeons are too hard. It means you're stuck playing with half wit <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Unfortunately a lot of people who play this game are not very smart.
If you're not a half wit <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, try using voice chat to communicate with people in a DD. the people that respond, and who communicate with you to get the delve done with teamwork, are worth putting in your friend list. Once you find enough people that use voice chat, get a group going with them, and work together. In order to complete most any delve, you need to be able to communicate with your team and work together. Dungeon Delves are not for solo or selfish players.
If you're not a half wit <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, try using voice chat to communicate with people in a DD. the people that respond, and who communicate with you to get the delve done with teamwork, are worth putting in your friend list. Once you find enough people that use voice chat, get a group going with them, and work together.
Again, you're talking about forming set groups with high levels of skill/etc (using voice, for instance).
Not average players.
Not average players stuck together in a pug by the queue tool.
And if that's who the content is aimed at, then they shouldn't have a grouping tool - because it's a false option if it's not meant to be possible to succeed that way. /shrug
I woholeheartedly support the suggestion to shorten the dungeons. Right now they go on and on and on and the only reason is slaughtering heaps of trash. Same trash every single time. Cut it by 50% and give meaningful trash pulls for what's left.
Comments
I have seen that in dungeon like Idris with my rogue. At 40 something i was doing double damage some guy which a few level above. I also so that with my cleric last week in GWD.
I don't think it is necessary skill, it can very well be that you just have plain better weapon or equipment.
Anyway mechanics of final bosses in NW are kind of lame, only somehow different ones are Dread vault (the other single one ive been unable to beat in epic difficulty pugging) and spellplague caverns (really easy in normal, doable in epic as pug), the gazillion hitpoints, deadly AoE red zone damage, little to no AI, and millions of tough adds, then more of those, then gazillion of even tougher ones is frustrating and boring after a few runs...
(luckyly, seemed in the trailer that GG will be a little different, one can only hope)
To the guy of karrundax group, that dragon aint that hard, is easier than mad dragon in fact
I'm sorry, but I don't find that to be obvious at all.
(and I know I'm not the only one - in every zone, I see people in chat trying to form groups, only to have multiple people say "why aren't you using the queue?" "Does no-one use the queue anymore? That's how you get groups.")
...actually, if the tool were meant for the queueing of complete groups, then it would return a "Sorry, you have to be a group of 5 to queue" error when you tried to enter the queue as a single.
the community is of zero help because as soon as one person dares to point out that the King has no clothes screams of Learn 2 Play begin, which is hyperbole at it's finest. Hell I have seen people who have just as rough a time shout learn 2 play because they don't want to be perceived as a **** by the "cool kids" it's the high school lunch table BS all over again.
There are workable answers a difficulty slider for one that gives less XP and perhaps not the very best gear (but worthwhile gear) or the can improve the horrid AI and let you bring more than one companion which would cost you a cut of what you receive and a reduced XP gain, but you are not dismissing a growing demographic that is going to pay for some product just not yours if you keep giving them the finger.
its obv the first time you que via it and it gives you 3 TRS 2 CWs......
its a tool that puts the first 5 people in a group as if they are waiting in a line to ride a roller coaster.. its not a lfg tool to build a group. Make a group then que for the instance, its as simple as that.
O.O srsly... i feel like i can afk in these an be fine
From #1 Guild Pve/Pvp [ Lemonade Stand ]
besides, if mmo's encounter were not a bit hard and needed a bit of learning, we d never had Onyxia wipe ! and that one makes me laugh every time i listen to it ... hop i ll go and check it out once more :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04
cheers
exactly this... if they want dungeons to be easy....
> foundry that way
Which has what maybe fifty people logged on on a good day? :rolleyes:
Fine let them release all the assets, including end game bosses and the ability to create our own, the ability to plug scripts and cinematics in, and the ability to share a project with your team. I fracking promise you no one will be bothering with the so called official content.
Building a dungeon is hard and tuning them requires specific changes. So if you want the developers to make specific changes let them know what specifically is causing the trouble. You don’t have to be accurate to the square foot or list every single thing but giving them some place to start would be appreciated I am certain.
So “This is too hard” might not be as helpful as “In the turn right before we get to the bridge, having mobs with massive knockback there is really too much.” Totally fictitious examples but you get the idea.
Help them to help you.
whats it matter if you just want to look at things and they die??? its not like the cinematics in game are awesome its a picture of hte boss standing there
Most people who really wanna down the boss arent qeueing anywayz, they are also looking in zone chat for motivated people like u.
There are strategies for every boss that work. The guy that mentioned Karrudux for example, I've done that one a bunch of times and the key is a good cleric who can keep up AS and dodge, having someone body guard said cleric, ideally a good CW who can help manage adds, and one other player on adds. TR on dragon, just pounding and pounding and pounding. If there is ever a time where adds are manageable, one person can help TR. It takes patience. If you get impatient you wipe.
Dread Vault is much the same. I had done that one a dozen times with no success. Then someone showed me the strategy and I've even beat it twice with no CW in party which some people said was impossible. Again, it takes patience and strategy and everyone has got to be on the same page.
If you are in a group that won't communicate, my suggestion is leave at the beginning and requeue. I've been lucky to find many great pug groups.
I remember when you could add new players to groups without starting over if you wiped for a couple hours and someone had to log.
By saying I am a casual player I am also saying that I understand that I don’t put in as much time and effort as the elitists. I don’t have the best stuff and I just don’t have time to devote to a schedule of raiding and acquisition.
But is there a way that I too can at least see some of this content, can I have a chance to pug into something without it being certain doom every single time?
Sure there is. Run your quests on normal mode, you get to see the dungeons, the monsters and the action. You get a shot at decent loot and with enough focus you can get up to the gearscore needed for a real group if you ever lose your job.
But if you have a crack commando unit sent to the stockade for a crime they didn’t commit, who escaped and are now on the run in the Neverwinter underground surviving as soldiers of fortune; if you have a dungeon…and no one else can help…and if you can find them…maybe you can hire…the D-team
*cue spellburst – theme music *
Well then you can go against the hardmode dungeon in full knowledge that it is the hardest the game has to offer with the largest rewards.
Casuals aren’t crying that they cant get into hardmode, elites aren’t worried about normal.
That should be a thing.
Never lasts.
I understand that if the lfg tool is not fixed, "unbalanced" groups and ragequitters can make life in dungeons hell for casual players, heck some of that makes life hell for hardcore players too, but I suppose the different expectations in time invested in the game end up being the big difference in the end-result.
While I agree with the sentiment of the OP, perhaps fixing the lfg tool and a proper balance patch (hopefully both are well addressed in next patch) should come before the plain old "nerfing" of the instances. If the two things mentioned above are not enough, then "case by case" nerfs could be taken in consideration.
Tuning and parity in NW are all kinds of crazy. There are t1 boss fights harder then some t2 boss fights.
If you're not a half wit <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, try using voice chat to communicate with people in a DD. the people that respond, and who communicate with you to get the delve done with teamwork, are worth putting in your friend list. Once you find enough people that use voice chat, get a group going with them, and work together. In order to complete most any delve, you need to be able to communicate with your team and work together. Dungeon Delves are not for solo or selfish players.
Again, you're talking about forming set groups with high levels of skill/etc (using voice, for instance).
Not average players.
Not average players stuck together in a pug by the queue tool.
And if that's who the content is aimed at, then they shouldn't have a grouping tool - because it's a false option if it's not meant to be possible to succeed that way. /shrug