Completely disagree. You want shorter, there are skirmishes for that. Dungeons should be long. What I would like to see is the chance of getting a rare drop from trash mobs or in one of the hidden chests. I hate people rushing through and never checking out the side paths and hidden areas. If they would increase the chance of getting a rare drop from those things it would really make Dungeons more fulfilling and rewarding.
I'm going to have to agree with OP. I don't mind epic dungeons being hard, that's the point of end-game, but as you're leveling up, those dungeons should definitely be doable in PUGs. I consider myself a good player, and recently rolled another character to level up, and anything post 30 is almost certainly going to fail in PUGs.
The difficulty discrepancies between solo and group dungeons are just so huge.
0
tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I've finished a few post 30 dungeons with PUGs. We might have wiped 3 or 4 times, but nobody ragequit. I was proud, even though I didn't get anything except XP for my time.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
0
perfectindigoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Agree that the dungeons are too hard for pugs. You spend an hour killing trash with zero difficulty, then get to a boss that wipes the party in a minute. People get frustrated and quit, and dungeon queue doesn't find a replacement. They're fixing that, so that will help some, but it's still not fun for the player who got discouraged and left.
Most of the dungeons aren't as hard once you know the mechanic, but learning the mechanic is too hard for pugs to figure out on the fly.
Neverwinter should figure out how difficult dungeons are supposed to be. If skirmishes are for pugs and dungeons are for guilds, then don't put dungeons in group finder. As it is, dungeons are mostly easy enough for pugs. Dungeons should be tuned for pugs (especially lower tier) and raids should be targeted towards guilds, like what's happening with Gauntlgrym.
For hard dungeons, there has to be communication. I am amazed at how little there is in PUGs. This game comes with integrated voice chat and nobody uses it. With the aim and shoot system it is very hard to speak using regular chat. You almost have to use voice. I now as a CW I often have to change my powers for the boss fight, but often folks just run in rather than waiting to talk about strategy. I joined a group the other day on a skirmish and we got wiped twice and finaly I said: "Look the GF will pull the bad guy to here, drop 3 alters here, we had 2 CWs so I said I would guard the healer, the other CW support with damage and go after the ranged adds. Use your buff potions if you need help." Finished the skirmish with no further loss of life.
I think gear and enhancements are not fully understood by casual players or that they can be fused to higher levels and there is no level limit on them. This is especialy true for the pets. Even buying a green level 60 piece a gear for 10 AD for your pet is helpful. High level runestones are very cheap and plentiful. I have level 5's in all my pets bonuses.
Regarding pits and ledges, I feel they had to be designed on purpose to be used for smart strategists and to avoid blind teleporting, etc....
I tend to agree with the OP as well, at least for certain bosses. All of the Skirmishes have been mostly fun, though I'm not a huge fan of the Bridge. Dungeons should be more like that. I levelled right past the Mad Dragon because no one ever queued up for it.
More Cloak Tower, please. That is hugely entertaining.
I've done progression raiding in other games -- most recently Age of Conan -- and it causes burnout and frustration. Sooner or later it gets to the point where you feel like you've been driving nails into the wall with your forehead. Let's make this game a non-elitist game.
Reading all these replies, I think I was lucky. Finished all my dungeons upto level 55 with PUGs. Of course I had my fair share of wipes, team members leaving in the middle, 0 cleric parties, etc.
anyway, my two cents on the dungeons most people have problems:
Mad dragon: Ignore the dragon and kill the adds
Wolf den: Fight on the ledge. Easier to dodge his hands and kill adds in this small space.
Man I know I am going to get some flames and shrill shrieks from the elitists, but seriously, the dungeons post L30 or so are just too hard for casual players.
I have not finished a final boss in any queued pickup group since craigemire crypts. After several dozen fails on several characters, I have pretty much just stopped queueing dungeons. I will be the first to admit, I can not always get out end boss AE. A second hesitation usually gets me knocked down inside a red circle and burned down to 25% health. But even if I somehow make no mistakes in a 20 minute fight, there are 4 other casual players who have to remain alive.
The average group will give it 3 goes before people rage quit or run out of pots/kits. I am normally against dumbing down a game to make it EZ mode, but I have to say these dungeons seem like EPIC hard mode encounters without much margin for error.
I really like to see them tuned down.
Dragon is hard period. I don't care how many times you do it or how hardcore or casual you are. That is a HARD Dungeon!
The rest aren't so bad as long as your gear score is appropriate.
I once fought the dragon on Kar lvl 59 instance and the fight lasted 45min. 1 fight. 45min. That's the last time I legitimately logged in to play for fun. That was not fun.
in general mobs have too many HPs, especially the "trash-trash" - mobs with only 1-3 health bars. these should die with 1 AOE chain from the wizard (ie one slow time + shield pop) but it often takes 3-4, even with Dailys like arcane singularity..
boss fights have too many adds (with also too many hp). really just facepalm design here.
I dare anyone to do Spellplague end boss without tossing 90% of the adds into the lava. even then it's hard and extremely hectic for i.e. the CW trying to spam every AOE in the book as fast as he can and pump out a singularity every 15 seconds.
It happens in games that go with the "More difficulty = more adds" mentality that this one goes with. Especially when unavoidable autoattacks and gapclosers do more damage than boss AOEs. It becomes difficult, not because the boss has surprising mechanics that you can eventually adapt to and win, but because adds are autoattacking you to death, which, since they are unavoidable, you can't change up how to play to counter it.
Just to weigh in here fast, I kind of agree with the OP... I am a single dad with great amounts of time to spare at some times and very little to spare at others..... so finding a guild that is desirable is difficult to say the least.... That being said, there is some very hard "solo-able" content (or so they say) For instance I am at the end of the quests and trying to get my cloak of invisibility by poisoning the "birthing pools" I have tried this "SOLO" content with a lvl60 TR with full T1 set (or so I am told, I think like a 9.5 GS) and I just keep getting pwned time and again, to the point where it is no fun anymore...
I am not particularly good at gaming, but I am not particularly bad either, I would imagine my skill level falls where the "average" gamer is..... and between this particular quest and a lack of community feel... I have stopped playing...... I was logging in to get my coins, but even that was reset due to that last server downtime and it falling at the same time I needed to log in due to "RL" schedules....
My overall point is this...... dungeons and quests being hard is one thing and a good thing.... but taking a million mobs and saying "live through those and you win" is not fun...
Not to be a jerk, but the game has lost its appeal for me... I spent $$$ on it to get a head start, as I know I cannot dedicate all my waking hours to leveling and constant dungeons, but now I am lvl60 and I cannot even finish my quests the way I am suppose to let alone do dungeons to make any money..... and I am not spending MORE cash here, the point was to help me get to where I can make my own funds in game... I can't even find a party to dungeon with half the time, because I am a dungeon nub and no one wants to wait on a nub... (this goes back to the community)....,... I dunno, I really liked this game, and then I really started moving through it and now.... I am regretful...
The queue system needs work. I know I try to help the newer players learn as do others in my guild. Everyone was a newbie once even the hardcore players. Also Since TR are in such abundance that may be making it more difficult for you to find a group (clerics and especially tanks queue way faster then dps classes.)
The funny part is, I chose "rogue" class because in the last game I played and got into (Shaiya), rogues were kind of rare.. or at least rarer... So I thought I would try and play something that was different.... boy that backfired.... I am in a guild now, but they are a west coast group and I live on the east coast and they are a good bunch of kids, but they play for themselves and not much for explaining, or taking time to educate me "why" we are doing something... also, they do not have but 1 cleric, so parties are hard to create in house so then you have 1 "outsider" who is even less apt to deal with my nubness.... kinda sucks.
yeah it can be tough. Most of my guild members are on the east coast so it's pretty easy for us to group up. We take the time to try and explain stuff. I feel your pain though when dealing with outsiders. Sometimes you get queued in with impatient people or ragequitters who leave are 1 wipe, or even get kicked before you've even loaded in. Either that or you load in then then leave because they don't like the class combination. Queuing solo can be frustrating to say the least.
I once fought the dragon on Kar lvl 59 instance and the fight lasted 45min. 1 fight. 45min. That's the last time I legitimately logged in to play for fun. That was not fun.
t2 karrundax doesn't last that long unless your dps is just asleep and dragon hp is dropping in the balance patch
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
The thing is - when you include a "random queue" system in your game, you're strongly suggesting that the content one randomly queues for..... should have a reasonable chance of being completed by a random group thrown together by that queue.
If a game intends that dungeons should be "hard", or are balanced around forming set groups, then you shouldn't include a random queue system at all.
yep I think they need queue dungeons and "hero" mode that's a bit harder and drops better lewtz for the hardcore guilds.
as it is I don't see hardcore guilds playing NWO, too easy, not enough rewards. you can T2 loot on the AH for literally peanuts, even the BiS stuff can be bought with a few $$ worth of Zen converted to AD. hardcore type peeps need uber-uber-rare lewtz that 99.9% of the **** bads can never get in order to feel superior.
I've finished every 5-man dungeon as I leveled up with random groups, except Grey Wolf Den. We wiped 4 or 5 times, I would get lagged into AEs, it was a mess, but that's fine. The rest have been totally smooth runs from beginning to end.
If you're admittedly getting hit by AEs and not playing up to par, realize you're 20% of the team's problem.
I've finished every 5-man dungeon as I leveled up with random groups, except Grey Wolf Den. We wiped 4 or 5 times, I would get lagged into AEs, it was a mess, but that's fine. The rest have been totally smooth runs from beginning to end.
If you're admittedly getting hit by AEs and not playing up to par, realize you're 20% of the team's problem.
What the queue sticks you with is a factor as well. Mad Dragon is likely a bit harder when your group is 2xTR, 3xGWF. All of them 30-32, and new to the dungeon. We did keep trying until several people ran out of potions & injury kits, but it just wasn't to be. (Also kind of hard to down the adds & avoid the AoE, when the adds stand in each others AoE. Woohoo! ) The dungeons after Mad Dragon may well be easier, but I wouldn't know - after the one run I did there, I never bothered queuing for anything again. Didn't seem to be a point. /shrug
I had a lot of experience in mmorpg, i think if you compare the difficulty of this game with similar mmorpg game released in the last years, i would say the difficulty is above average, but honestly not that much. There's easy mmorpg, they quickly get flagged boring and unchallenging and are swarmed by kids, while i don't find this bad, it's not something i would enjoy. I think the difficulty of the game is reflecting their target community. They want to grab the more light to moderate experienced mmo gamers that looks for challenge. Furthermore, the thematic around Neverwinter/DnD, especially the 4 edition is a good sellers for tabletop players, young to older adult that are used to be challenged, playing tactically and communicating with their group members. Yes, it's hard random queue, yes it might not be intended for random group that doesn't want to communicate, but on the other hand, you have the tools to communicate, they are not responsible for people who refuse to communicate, cooperate with team or/and try to get the strategy.
On the other hand, there's ridiculous mechanics, the game is not hard by itself IMHO some boss fight are just badly designed and rely on cheesy strategy. Vital information or hint are not given even subtly (like a warning, specific animation). I feel the mechanic of some team fight has been rushed, and to give a challenge they just added more adds, more knockdown, instead of rewarding more often tactical play, it actually rewards too much individual game skills to be able to succeed since the challenges are always fuelled with out-of-control element/OMG save my ***/there's too much adds i can't kite anymore in teamfight. The first 2 times you'll encounter one of those scenario are the last boss of Mad Dragon Lair, Grey Wolf Den... and it's a slap in the face, most of the people panics or just get pissed, but they are doable if you focus, but the game didn't prepare people for that. After a while, after the less patient or people not satisfied by challenge, stop to queue, all of sudden people realize it's almost always the same thing, and it requires about the same approach. People learn and get experience, and after few weeks doing T1, you realize it's not that hard and even T2 can be done without exploiting, with timing, communication, willingness to try again and patience.
So yeah, it's a fake challenge, while some fight are very challenging and fun to do, some of them just give the feeling it's been rushed and has too much BS and WTF elements. Overall, game is really not harder than any other similar game.
yep I think they need queue dungeons and "hero" mode that's a bit harder and drops better lewtz for the hardcore guilds.
as it is I don't see hardcore guilds playing NWO, too easy, not enough rewards. you can T2 loot on the AH for literally peanuts, even the BiS stuff can be bought with a few $$ worth of Zen converted to AD. hardcore type peeps need uber-uber-rare lewtz that 99.9% of the **** bads can never get in order to feel superior.
Hardcore players wants well designed while challenging type of instance that are different and requires adaption to vast number of different strategy in order to succeed. The game barely give them something they can chew on, and quickly bored them by having to copy-paste a same strategy over and over, using 3 to 4 different power up to Castle Never. You role can be fulfill the same way with the same powers in every single instances in the game. The only thing that is clearly differentiating Dungeons are the colours of the wall and the mob type.
What the queue sticks you with is a factor as well. Mad Dragon is likely a bit harder when your group is 2xTR, 3xGWF. All of them 30-32, and new to the dungeon. We did keep trying until several people ran out of potions & injury kits, but it just wasn't to be. (Also kind of hard to down the adds & avoid the AoE, when the adds stand in each others AoE. Woohoo! ) The dungeons after Mad Dragon may well be easier, but I wouldn't know - after the one run I did there, I never bothered queuing for anything again. Didn't seem to be a point. /shrug
I've never had a queue group without a DC. In fact I've never wiped except for the one instance I didn't finish, and one other group where our DC disconnected and we finished with 4 people and potions.
Mad Dragon would definitely be harder at level - my group had a tank above level for the quest which definitely helped. But none of this strikes me as being 'too hard' for a PUG group to manage.
One of the big failures by developers is not allowing choice in games, Neverwinter is a fine example of that. All dungeons should be scalable between 1-100 people and have multiple difficulty settings allowing huge possibilities but the devs and their suit masters are way to cheap to do it. it is not the devs not being able to, they simply do not want to, lessons that for some reasons only a few successful game companies take heed about.
Advice about guildies is sadly the norm in this game, you must have friends that can beat trash and kite, since that is all these dungeons are, trash adds and kiting, nothing new, no puzzles, no creativity, no riddles, nothing but kiting the boss and killing zillions of adds at certain health percentages. until the developers are given the cash to stretch their programming legs you get the cheap dungeon mechanics made for the select masses. Nothing you can do about it.
There is no worse feeling in the world than the moment during an argument you realize you are wrong.
Hi.
I think the game starts to get a bit tougher for parties around lvl 40+
The last boss on Gray Wolf Den is an excellent example where it is required of players to have some basic MMO knowledge, preferably they have raided in some other game before and are aware of everyday dungeon skill requirements such as AOE DpS and AOE Tanking, Kiting at the same time, dodging and avoiding incoming damage etc.
I play both Tank and a Healer and once you study the event and every detail behind it, the fights are actually pretty easy, however every mistake can cost the whole team a LOT. For example, 2 combos from enemy attacks and you are perma DOWN.
I like this type of difficulty and hope they up the scales even more in the future.
Comments
The difficulty discrepancies between solo and group dungeons are just so huge.
Most of the dungeons aren't as hard once you know the mechanic, but learning the mechanic is too hard for pugs to figure out on the fly.
Neverwinter should figure out how difficult dungeons are supposed to be. If skirmishes are for pugs and dungeons are for guilds, then don't put dungeons in group finder. As it is, dungeons are mostly easy enough for pugs. Dungeons should be tuned for pugs (especially lower tier) and raids should be targeted towards guilds, like what's happening with Gauntlgrym.
I think gear and enhancements are not fully understood by casual players or that they can be fused to higher levels and there is no level limit on them. This is especialy true for the pets. Even buying a green level 60 piece a gear for 10 AD for your pet is helpful. High level runestones are very cheap and plentiful. I have level 5's in all my pets bonuses.
Regarding pits and ledges, I feel they had to be designed on purpose to be used for smart strategists and to avoid blind teleporting, etc....
More Cloak Tower, please. That is hugely entertaining.
I've done progression raiding in other games -- most recently Age of Conan -- and it causes burnout and frustration. Sooner or later it gets to the point where you feel like you've been driving nails into the wall with your forehead. Let's make this game a non-elitist game.
Which reminds me of a random question that pops into my head every so often.... I wonder what the % of people who don't own headsets is.
anyway, my two cents on the dungeons most people have problems:
Mad dragon: Ignore the dragon and kill the adds
Wolf den: Fight on the ledge. Easier to dodge his hands and kill adds in this small space.
Dragon is hard period. I don't care how many times you do it or how hardcore or casual you are. That is a HARD Dungeon!
The rest aren't so bad as long as your gear score is appropriate.
boss fights have too many adds (with also too many hp). really just facepalm design here.
I dare anyone to do Spellplague end boss without tossing 90% of the adds into the lava. even then it's hard and extremely hectic for i.e. the CW trying to spam every AOE in the book as fast as he can and pump out a singularity every 15 seconds.
The Dungeons aren't "too hard" for Casual Players.
they are "too hard" for people who can't be bothered to pay attention to anything other than the Damage Meter and the Loot screen.
Difficulty is a good thing. facerolling is boring.
The queue system needs work. I know I try to help the newer players learn as do others in my guild. Everyone was a newbie once even the hardcore players. Also Since TR are in such abundance that may be making it more difficult for you to find a group (clerics and especially tanks queue way faster then dps classes.)
The built in voice chat makes me lagg.
Not sure but I use external voice chat with my guild.
This.
/10char
yeah it can be tough. Most of my guild members are on the east coast so it's pretty easy for us to group up. We take the time to try and explain stuff. I feel your pain though when dealing with outsiders. Sometimes you get queued in with impatient people or ragequitters who leave are 1 wipe, or even get kicked before you've even loaded in. Either that or you load in then then leave because they don't like the class combination. Queuing solo can be frustrating to say the least.
t2 karrundax doesn't last that long unless your dps is just asleep and dragon hp is dropping in the balance patch
/agreelots
as it is I don't see hardcore guilds playing NWO, too easy, not enough rewards. you can T2 loot on the AH for literally peanuts, even the BiS stuff can be bought with a few $$ worth of Zen converted to AD. hardcore type peeps need uber-uber-rare lewtz that 99.9% of the **** bads can never get in order to feel superior.
If you're admittedly getting hit by AEs and not playing up to par, realize you're 20% of the team's problem.
What the queue sticks you with is a factor as well. Mad Dragon is likely a bit harder when your group is 2xTR, 3xGWF. All of them 30-32, and new to the dungeon. We did keep trying until several people ran out of potions & injury kits, but it just wasn't to be. (Also kind of hard to down the adds & avoid the AoE, when the adds stand in each others AoE. Woohoo!
I had a lot of experience in mmorpg, i think if you compare the difficulty of this game with similar mmorpg game released in the last years, i would say the difficulty is above average, but honestly not that much. There's easy mmorpg, they quickly get flagged boring and unchallenging and are swarmed by kids, while i don't find this bad, it's not something i would enjoy. I think the difficulty of the game is reflecting their target community. They want to grab the more light to moderate experienced mmo gamers that looks for challenge. Furthermore, the thematic around Neverwinter/DnD, especially the 4 edition is a good sellers for tabletop players, young to older adult that are used to be challenged, playing tactically and communicating with their group members. Yes, it's hard random queue, yes it might not be intended for random group that doesn't want to communicate, but on the other hand, you have the tools to communicate, they are not responsible for people who refuse to communicate, cooperate with team or/and try to get the strategy.
On the other hand, there's ridiculous mechanics, the game is not hard by itself IMHO some boss fight are just badly designed and rely on cheesy strategy. Vital information or hint are not given even subtly (like a warning, specific animation). I feel the mechanic of some team fight has been rushed, and to give a challenge they just added more adds, more knockdown, instead of rewarding more often tactical play, it actually rewards too much individual game skills to be able to succeed since the challenges are always fuelled with out-of-control element/OMG save my ***/there's too much adds i can't kite anymore in teamfight. The first 2 times you'll encounter one of those scenario are the last boss of Mad Dragon Lair, Grey Wolf Den... and it's a slap in the face, most of the people panics or just get pissed, but they are doable if you focus, but the game didn't prepare people for that. After a while, after the less patient or people not satisfied by challenge, stop to queue, all of sudden people realize it's almost always the same thing, and it requires about the same approach. People learn and get experience, and after few weeks doing T1, you realize it's not that hard and even T2 can be done without exploiting, with timing, communication, willingness to try again and patience.
So yeah, it's a fake challenge, while some fight are very challenging and fun to do, some of them just give the feeling it's been rushed and has too much BS and WTF elements. Overall, game is really not harder than any other similar game.
Hardcore players wants well designed while challenging type of instance that are different and requires adaption to vast number of different strategy in order to succeed. The game barely give them something they can chew on, and quickly bored them by having to copy-paste a same strategy over and over, using 3 to 4 different power up to Castle Never. You role can be fulfill the same way with the same powers in every single instances in the game. The only thing that is clearly differentiating Dungeons are the colours of the wall and the mob type.
I've never had a queue group without a DC. In fact I've never wiped except for the one instance I didn't finish, and one other group where our DC disconnected and we finished with 4 people and potions.
Mad Dragon would definitely be harder at level - my group had a tank above level for the quest which definitely helped. But none of this strikes me as being 'too hard' for a PUG group to manage.
Advice about guildies is sadly the norm in this game, you must have friends that can beat trash and kite, since that is all these dungeons are, trash adds and kiting, nothing new, no puzzles, no creativity, no riddles, nothing but kiting the boss and killing zillions of adds at certain health percentages. until the developers are given the cash to stretch their programming legs you get the cheap dungeon mechanics made for the select masses. Nothing you can do about it.
I think the game starts to get a bit tougher for parties around lvl 40+
The last boss on Gray Wolf Den is an excellent example where it is required of players to have some basic MMO knowledge, preferably they have raided in some other game before and are aware of everyday dungeon skill requirements such as AOE DpS and AOE Tanking, Kiting at the same time, dodging and avoiding incoming damage etc.
I play both Tank and a Healer and once you study the event and every detail behind it, the fights are actually pretty easy, however every mistake can cost the whole team a LOT. For example, 2 combos from enemy attacks and you are perma DOWN.
I like this type of difficulty and hope they up the scales even more in the future.