The main issue with AS is the combo with the design of the boss fights in general. Having a zillion adds thrown at your group without proper control over the situation or burst heals outside of potting. It's the general lack of control of any class over the in game battle situation. That is the reason AS was/is such a needed tool right now. It's the only tool that can deal with the lack of control.
0
goldentulipMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Not sure if I can be all excited about the fixes to the Devoted cleric. Seems a bit disappointing at the moment but won't know until I test it out.
+ 1
lol the first thing I thought that they might be targeting poor DC...too many negative changes. Dunno...My main is DC, am a bit disappointed myself as well. I just hope these changes work better in game.
PvP huge disadvantage, stop being a support party member and start building your DPS...
Everything looks good to me, with 1 minor exception. "The "Need" button is now disabled for items your class cannot use."
While this is a step in the right direction, it still doesn't get rid of all the other problems that a N/G/P system causes in an Action mmorpg.
Please just go all the way and get with the times. Individual loot is the only way to make parting (with friends or strangers) tolerable. There is a reason that so many games are going away from N/G/P, the cons of it out way the pros.
I agree, Looting system such as the one in GW2 is successfully implemented and working very impressively. I am not sure if it can be changed here in NW though. Its a downside from my perspective and I hope its implementable.
There being a GF and a GWF means nothing at the moment. The vast majority if not all GWFs atm spec for damage, and a lot of GFs do as well. The difference in survival between a tank spec and tank gear GF or GWF and a dps spec in dps gear is enormous, I can't speak in absolute numbers about GF since I didn't do that much research into it, but in case of a GWF you are looking at extra +40% mitigation flat, 50% to 60% deflection chance and anywhere between 5k to 8k extra hitpoints, if a dps GWF died in 3 seconds, then I'm not worried about a Sentinel at all.
Also I've been in that fight on my GWF, I could step outside AS and survive for much longer than 3 seconds while grabbing / killing some adds in unfortunate position. The anecdotal evidence of "well our GF died in 3 seconds once he got agro after cleric dying" means nothing to me, really.
There's going to have to be some nerfs on t2 bosses when this patch hits. The usual addstorm is to much to tank for a protector or sentinel. Even with the slight survivability buff to gf I know for sure I may be able to tank those killer add waves for maybe 0.2 seconds longer.
Nerf kiting, make the damage bearable or you still won't need a tank for the tough fights. Or maybe you'll need a tank to make the threat now, and then to start running circles avoiding the big add blobs of doom.
You kidding right? There are less and less DCs out there. You are clearly don't know what you are talking about...OP Clerics...yea right...
I replied with irony to a person who keep pretending that the cleric needed nerfs and that everything's will be fine with this patch that will add aggro to GF and GWF, though they won't last much longer than a cleric, without AS periodically.
I replied with irony to a person who keep pretending that the cleric needed nerfs and that everything's will be fine with this patch that will add aggro to GF and GWF, though they won't last much longer than a cleric, without AS periodically.
I totally agree with you, I'm cleric.
This is getting tiresome, but I'll keep challenging this particular perception of yours. Answer me this:
1) How many mobs can you agro on a cleric and survive while standing in AS?
2) What's your effective damage mitigation in AS as a Cleric?
edit: and just to be clear, I'm not saying you will be able to do dungeons without AS (you might be able to do some, but why would you event try if you don't have to?). All I am saying is that you will be able to do dungeons just fine with nerfed AS simply because fixed healing threat and more threat on tanks that this patch provides will be enough to keep the party alive during AS downtime.
0
goldentulipMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I replied with irony to a person who keep pretending that the cleric needed nerfs and that everything's will be fine with this patch that will add aggro to GF and GWF, though they won't last much longer than a cleric, without AS periodically.
I totally agree with you, I'm cleric.
My bad, I just went to your post and read the last line...
This is getting tiresome, but I'll keep challenging this particular perception of yours. Answer me this:
1) How many mobs can you agro on a cleric and survive while standing in AS?
2) What's your effective damage mitigation in AS as a Cleric?
edit: and just to be clear, I'm not saying you will be able to do dungeons without AS (you might be able to do some, but why would you event try if you don't have to?). All I am saying is that you will be able to do dungeons just fine with nerfed AS simply because fixed healing threat and more threat on tanks that this patch provides will be enough to keep the party alive during AS downtime.
Look, people are already wiping in Dungeons frequently, with the way powers are currently. If you are doing Dungeons legit without cheats and exploits they are bloody hard. Admittedly some are harder than others. Still, it takes a good well balanced team to even have a chance at completion. Stop with the freakin' nerfs, they are not needed and not welcome. The only thing I agree with is the AS stacking. That can go. But give back the duration on AS, and leave Duelist's Flurry for the TR the heck alone. And Shocking Execution is our one end game daily that really does anything. 60% nerf, really? WTH.
Why is it that as a cleric I can place 5 points in flame strike to go from a 0.1 second stun to a 0.5 second stun, but when I play PvP I get stunned by others (not by clerics) for up to a minute (yes, I've had a 60 second clock that I had to wait just to be able to use anything and to be honest I would have been much better off if I were simply killed as a minute is a very very long time in PvP)? A half a second stun is less time than it even takes a cleric to cast anything when toggling between divine and non-divine mode.
Anyone who can honestly say that a 50-60% PVE damage nerf isn't an overnerf probably has no idea what they are talking about. Good CW's were only about 30% or so behind in "overall" damage in dungeons. On bosses, yes, rogues can generally pump out about 2-3x the damage of any other class if we get a good bleed crit. But the fix for this is not to nerf our overall damage into the ground.
I can honestly say that if rogues are one hitting everyone else in PvP at level 60 that a 50 to 60% reduction is likely needed. The better fix would likely have been to make armor and defense more defensive and less totally worthless. If you defense up there simply isn't a noticeable difference in the damage you receive in this game, in PvP you are still being one and two hit constantly while maxing your defense. Defense in this game is absolutely a broken joke.
Before buffing or whatever NONSENSE u wanna to do to gwf....fix the unstoppable bug. There is a detailed description in the bug report section.
FIX BASIC GAME FUNCTIONS BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE THINGS!
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
lol the first thing I thought that they might be targeting poor DC...too many negative changes. Dunno...My main is DC, am a bit disappointed myself as well. I just hope these changes work better in game.
PvP huge disadvantage, stop being a support party member and start building your DPS...
I try to do just that with my second cleric, but the problem is that I am being stunned and controlled by others with a cool off timer to be able to be able to use any of my skills for a cool off timer that I've seen go up to 60 seconds. Clerics are worthless in PvP when they aren't even allowed to cast anything, and they have nothing that does that sort of thing to others (flame strike if 5 points are placed into it will stun for a whopping 0.5 seconds). In PvP characters shouldn't be made useless for more than perhaps 5 seconds (usually are made worthless now for 15 to 20 seconds).
They really should rethink this before they release. Honestly, even with a 13K GS as a DC, seems one GF and one CW or 1 TR can take me down if they are 12-13.5k like I am. It's ridiculous, I fought a team yesterday of deced out 12-13k GS people, with 1 GF 2TR and 2CW seems like an OP team. Even with my circle, I literally got smoked, and 1 hit, or pushed and the 2 CW finish me in a second. Only people I can tank myself are 2-3 max people 10.5k and under gearscore as a cleric. Cleric will be trash if they nerf astral shield. And execution should have only been a PvP nerf... same with CW RoE. Way to ruin the gameplay balance devs.
Protector build guardians need a massive mitigation buff that significantly differentiates its tanking capability from a conqueror built.
Don't need any buffs just yet, shield talent and iron guard need to be fixed. Those two working would give protector GF a tremendous survability boost. If even more buffing is needed you can go from there.
Don't need any buffs just yet, shield talent and iron guard need to be fixed. Those two working would give protector GF a tremendous survability boost. If even more buffing is needed you can go from there.
This is getting tiresome, but I'll keep challenging this particular perception of yours. Answer me this:
1) How many mobs can you agro on a cleric and survive while standing in AS?
2) What's your effective damage mitigation in AS as a Cleric?
edit: and just to be clear, I'm not saying you will be able to do dungeons without AS (you might be able to do some, but why would you event try if you don't have to?). All I am saying is that you will be able to do dungeons just fine with nerfed AS simply because fixed healing threat and more threat on tanks that this patch provides will be enough to keep the party alive during AS downtime.
Using AS as a cleric is pretty sucky. The problem is if you use AS you aren't likely able to recharge your divine power. If clerics aren't being targeted then as a cleric I'm not even going to use AS as I can't do much else when its being used unless they want to give clerics another available to use encounter slot. All the adds going after the cleric and a lot of the PvP problems from the cleric's stand point would have been taken care of if clerics were given a good deflection chance rather than having virtually no deflection at all, and by fixing defense on armor so that getting defense up would actually get damage quite a ways down. This game is nerfing a lot of damage in the upcoming patch, but a main problem wasn't damage but useless defense and completely unreal stun and control times which again should be mitigated down through increased defenses.
For the extra 10% guard all gf are getting after patch, i feel it should only be for the protectors. Considering the amount of extra dps conquerors get from their tree, they should be significantly more vulnerable to damage compared to protectors. As of now, you cant tell the difference between the tanking capability of a conqueror and a protector, but you can easily spot the significant difference in the damage output between conquerors and protectors. The 10% damage reduction after you "hit" the enemy is laughable in comparison to the extra 100% more power given to conquerors.
I can honestly say that if rogues are one hitting everyone else in PvP at level 60 that a 50 to 60% reduction is likely needed.
Dude. First off: The only skill one shotting people got a 60% nerf. I am talking about PVE here. You know, the place where rogues should be doing more damage than everyone else. Please read the actual post before making ignorant comments.
Dude. First off: The only skill one shotting people got a 60% nerf. I am talking about PVE here. You know, the place where rogues should be doing more damage than everyone else. Please read the actual post before making ignorant comments.
I'm a DC and I agree, TR should have been nerfed in PvP only, not PvE. I hope people think the same for astral shields nerf (not the stacking ability - I wanted that to get nerfed for the longest time).
I must say i am pretty surprised by the quality of gameplay. I wasn't considering this game before when it was announced to be p2p because gameplay didn't look good but I saw today on xFire it's free so I wanted to try it.
As i said, I was really surprised by this game, gameplay is really smooth and pleasant. However...
Some animations looks pretty basic and landscape is boring compared to some other mmorpgs.
And as this is placed in Forgotten Realms, I would really like to see things like barbarians, druid class, ranger, dwarf priests, etc... I am really big fan of FR books, and I just feel this things are missing in the game. This game has huge potential if only you could add something to make it special, not just another MMO with same classes as other games. People should feel like they are in Faerun, meet some people from books, play as their favorite classes that already exist in FR, please don't make them up... Some deities are missing or changed and that's really shame and i really don't see need for that.
And I really don't know why most games must start with fighting undead.
Dude. First off: The only skill one shotting people got a 60% nerf. I am talking about PVE here. You know, the place where rogues should be doing more damage than everyone else. Please read the actual post before making ignorant comments.
in PvE mages should be doing the most damage per second... perhaps rogues one on one situational damage being highest but group damage should belong to mages... in D and D play rogues go around with low damage daggers not high hitting two handed swords and thinking that every strike a rogue makes should be a backstab and a surprise is anything but logical
I must say i am pretty surprised by the quality of gameplay. I wasn't considering this game before when it was announced to be p2p because gameplay didn't look good but I saw today on xFire it's free so I wanted to try it.
As i said, I was really surprised by this game, gameplay is really smooth and pleasant. However...
Some animations looks pretty basic and landscape is boring compared to some other mmorpgs.
And as this is placed in Forgotten Realms, I would really like to see things like barbarians, druid class, ranger, dwarf priests, etc... I am really big fan of FR books, and I just feel this things are missing in the game. This game has huge potential if only you could add something to make it special, not just another MMO with same classes as other games. People should feel like they are in Faerun, meet some people from books, play as their favorite classes that already exist in FR, please don't make them up... Some deities are missing or changed and that's really shame and i really don't see need for that.
And I really don't know why most games must start with fighting undead.
I'm really at a loss over the deity and where you are born thing as from what I can see they play no part at all and have no impact upon anything in the game.
Shield Talent does not appear to do anything at all, Iron guard only works on regular at wills, not shielded at wills. I should verify that iron guard is still bugged on preview shard though.
1) How many mobs can you agro on a cleric and survive while standing in AS?
2) What's your effective damage mitigation in AS as a Cleric?
1. depends on the dungeons, build, and as you mention before, gears. cleric power and feat can be combined into high percentage of reduce damage, for now.
2. well, for now Enforcer Threat still below heal threat, adds still coming to cleric even though they got X marks, which make me believe this skill system is just raising threat to GF instead of locking it
Look, people are already wiping in Dungeons frequently, with the way powers are currently. If you are doing Dungeons legit without cheats and exploits they are bloody hard. Admittedly some are harder than others. Still, it takes a good well balanced team to even have a chance at completion. Stop with the freakin' nerfs, they are not needed and not welcome. The only thing I agree with is the AS stacking. That can go. But give back the duration on AS, and leave Duelist's Flurry for the TR the heck alone. And Shocking Execution is our one end game daily that really does anything. 60% nerf, really? WTH.
not to mention Cleric Righteousness which cut down 40% heals, that already low, for himself and TR base damage bonus unlike other classes come from secondary attribute of STR which still amuse me
edit:
ah I forget, TR daily and encounter are more beneficial from Power, so if you are a Crit-armor pen build with dex its going to be a double cut
is not that I dont like the nerf, but they simply doesnt give any other means or raising other skill, just simply nerf the AS and SE
in PvE mages should be doing the most damage per second... perhaps rogues one on one situational damage being highest but group damage should belong to mages... in D and D play rogues go around with low damage daggers not high hitting two handed swords and thinking that every strike a rogue makes should be a backstab and a surprise is anything but logical
What world of bad MMO design do you live in? CW is a CONTROL Wizard. They suppress the enemy. They are not a dps class. Yet they have the best DPS (though I hear they got nerfed pretty hard too).
Also rogues use 2 daggers with about half the damage each of a GF 1 handed sword. If you had any idea how rogue damage works currently at all you wouldn't make such an ignorant statement. PVP had one slightly overpowered ability that was a daily. PVE was pretty much fine as is. GWF needed a buff, but balance in PVE otherwise was pretty much fine.
The DnD model of a rogue does not work in an MMO designed like neverwinter. There isn't anything in there for all the things that make rogues useful in DnD to happen. And if you want a rogue to be more like a DnD rogue, then why not talk about how terrible our ranged damage and how weak our backstabs are in comparison to DnD?
The nerf on Trickster Rogues and Control Wizards aren't big enough in PvP aspects. They'll still be overpowered.
In no MMO game should an attack like Daze be an AoE attack and last for like 3 seconds. Especially as there's no PvP trinkets or anything like that.
last for 3 seconds, lol.... that has to be a joke unless that 3 seconds is really 30 seconds cause I'm sometimes hit for up to 60 seconds and unlike in the normal game I'm not even allowed to basic attack during that time... daze should not last for 20 to 30 seconds or so in PvP ever!!!!
Comments
+ 1
lol the first thing I thought that they might be targeting poor DC...too many negative changes. Dunno...My main is DC, am a bit disappointed myself as well. I just hope these changes work better in game.
PvP huge disadvantage, stop being a support party member and start building your DPS...
I agree, Looting system such as the one in GW2 is successfully implemented and working very impressively. I am not sure if it can be changed here in NW though. Its a downside from my perspective and I hope its implementable.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
There being a GF and a GWF means nothing at the moment. The vast majority if not all GWFs atm spec for damage, and a lot of GFs do as well. The difference in survival between a tank spec and tank gear GF or GWF and a dps spec in dps gear is enormous, I can't speak in absolute numbers about GF since I didn't do that much research into it, but in case of a GWF you are looking at extra +40% mitigation flat, 50% to 60% deflection chance and anywhere between 5k to 8k extra hitpoints, if a dps GWF died in 3 seconds, then I'm not worried about a Sentinel at all.
Also I've been in that fight on my GWF, I could step outside AS and survive for much longer than 3 seconds while grabbing / killing some adds in unfortunate position. The anecdotal evidence of "well our GF died in 3 seconds once he got agro after cleric dying" means nothing to me, really.
I have 2 chars on 60 and want know.
And next problem with: I think is verry bad. Clerics who HEAL, and CW who use CC to push enemy do not make DMG, but still should be count in assist.
Nerf kiting, make the damage bearable or you still won't need a tank for the tough fights. Or maybe you'll need a tank to make the threat now, and then to start running circles avoiding the big add blobs of doom.
I replied with irony to a person who keep pretending that the cleric needed nerfs and that everything's will be fine with this patch that will add aggro to GF and GWF, though they won't last much longer than a cleric, without AS periodically.
I totally agree with you, I'm cleric.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
This is getting tiresome, but I'll keep challenging this particular perception of yours. Answer me this:
1) How many mobs can you agro on a cleric and survive while standing in AS?
2) What's your effective damage mitigation in AS as a Cleric?
edit: and just to be clear, I'm not saying you will be able to do dungeons without AS (you might be able to do some, but why would you event try if you don't have to?). All I am saying is that you will be able to do dungeons just fine with nerfed AS simply because fixed healing threat and more threat on tanks that this patch provides will be enough to keep the party alive during AS downtime.
My bad, I just went to your post and read the last line...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Look, people are already wiping in Dungeons frequently, with the way powers are currently. If you are doing Dungeons legit without cheats and exploits they are bloody hard. Admittedly some are harder than others. Still, it takes a good well balanced team to even have a chance at completion. Stop with the freakin' nerfs, they are not needed and not welcome. The only thing I agree with is the AS stacking. That can go. But give back the duration on AS, and leave Duelist's Flurry for the TR the heck alone. And Shocking Execution is our one end game daily that really does anything. 60% nerf, really? WTH.
I can honestly say that if rogues are one hitting everyone else in PvP at level 60 that a 50 to 60% reduction is likely needed. The better fix would likely have been to make armor and defense more defensive and less totally worthless. If you defense up there simply isn't a noticeable difference in the damage you receive in this game, in PvP you are still being one and two hit constantly while maxing your defense. Defense in this game is absolutely a broken joke.
FIX BASIC GAME FUNCTIONS BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE THINGS!
I try to do just that with my second cleric, but the problem is that I am being stunned and controlled by others with a cool off timer to be able to be able to use any of my skills for a cool off timer that I've seen go up to 60 seconds. Clerics are worthless in PvP when they aren't even allowed to cast anything, and they have nothing that does that sort of thing to others (flame strike if 5 points are placed into it will stun for a whopping 0.5 seconds). In PvP characters shouldn't be made useless for more than perhaps 5 seconds (usually are made worthless now for 15 to 20 seconds).
Don't need any buffs just yet, shield talent and iron guard need to be fixed. Those two working would give protector GF a tremendous survability boost. If even more buffing is needed you can go from there.
how are they not working?
Using AS as a cleric is pretty sucky. The problem is if you use AS you aren't likely able to recharge your divine power. If clerics aren't being targeted then as a cleric I'm not even going to use AS as I can't do much else when its being used unless they want to give clerics another available to use encounter slot. All the adds going after the cleric and a lot of the PvP problems from the cleric's stand point would have been taken care of if clerics were given a good deflection chance rather than having virtually no deflection at all, and by fixing defense on armor so that getting defense up would actually get damage quite a ways down. This game is nerfing a lot of damage in the upcoming patch, but a main problem wasn't damage but useless defense and completely unreal stun and control times which again should be mitigated down through increased defenses.
Dude. First off: The only skill one shotting people got a 60% nerf. I am talking about PVE here. You know, the place where rogues should be doing more damage than everyone else. Please read the actual post before making ignorant comments.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
As i said, I was really surprised by this game, gameplay is really smooth and pleasant. However...
Some animations looks pretty basic and landscape is boring compared to some other mmorpgs.
And as this is placed in Forgotten Realms, I would really like to see things like barbarians, druid class, ranger, dwarf priests, etc... I am really big fan of FR books, and I just feel this things are missing in the game. This game has huge potential if only you could add something to make it special, not just another MMO with same classes as other games. People should feel like they are in Faerun, meet some people from books, play as their favorite classes that already exist in FR, please don't make them up... Some deities are missing or changed and that's really shame and i really don't see need for that.
And I really don't know why most games must start with fighting undead.
in PvE mages should be doing the most damage per second... perhaps rogues one on one situational damage being highest but group damage should belong to mages... in D and D play rogues go around with low damage daggers not high hitting two handed swords and thinking that every strike a rogue makes should be a backstab and a surprise is anything but logical
I'm really at a loss over the deity and where you are born thing as from what I can see they play no part at all and have no impact upon anything in the game.
Shield Talent does not appear to do anything at all, Iron guard only works on regular at wills, not shielded at wills. I should verify that iron guard is still bugged on preview shard though.
1. depends on the dungeons, build, and as you mention before, gears. cleric power and feat can be combined into high percentage of reduce damage, for now.
2. well, for now Enforcer Threat still below heal threat, adds still coming to cleric even though they got X marks, which make me believe this skill system is just raising threat to GF instead of locking it
not to mention Cleric Righteousness which cut down 40% heals, that already low, for himself and TR base damage bonus unlike other classes come from secondary attribute of STR which still amuse me
edit:
ah I forget, TR daily and encounter are more beneficial from Power, so if you are a Crit-armor pen build with dex its going to be a double cut
is not that I dont like the nerf, but they simply doesnt give any other means or raising other skill, just simply nerf the AS and SE
What world of bad MMO design do you live in? CW is a CONTROL Wizard. They suppress the enemy. They are not a dps class. Yet they have the best DPS (though I hear they got nerfed pretty hard too).
Also rogues use 2 daggers with about half the damage each of a GF 1 handed sword. If you had any idea how rogue damage works currently at all you wouldn't make such an ignorant statement. PVP had one slightly overpowered ability that was a daily. PVE was pretty much fine as is. GWF needed a buff, but balance in PVE otherwise was pretty much fine.
The DnD model of a rogue does not work in an MMO designed like neverwinter. There isn't anything in there for all the things that make rogues useful in DnD to happen. And if you want a rogue to be more like a DnD rogue, then why not talk about how terrible our ranged damage and how weak our backstabs are in comparison to DnD?
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
In no MMO game should an attack like Daze be an AoE attack and last for like 3 seconds. Especially as there's no PvP trinkets or anything like that.
last for 3 seconds, lol.... that has to be a joke unless that 3 seconds is really 30 seconds cause I'm sometimes hit for up to 60 seconds and unlike in the normal game I'm not even allowed to basic attack during that time... daze should not last for 20 to 30 seconds or so in PvP ever!!!!