what i find amusing are all the CWs saying they got nerfed. your job is CONTROL not dps. my friends that are CW like this fix for them because when they are on an alt and see CWs trying to out dps the GWF and TR and not do CC they just facepalm. ME im very happy with all the changes and am wondering about if there are going to be more paragon paths.
Based on the skills and feats available it was pretty easy to see the build could easily be DPS oriented regardless of what the class was called. Look through them and tell me if you find more DPS or control available. If in fact the goal is to force the class into more of a control role then the reduced DPS should have been offset with an significant increase in control capabilities,duration etc. As for your friends who enjoy playing a crowd control role that's fantastic. Many of us however enjoy playing caster dps roles. Hopefully they add that role or perhaps this just wont end up being the game for some of us.
If AS is a must-have, it's not because it's OP, but because all other powers are underpowered. AS is the only viable power that can support a party. If you don't agree, try to run a dungeon without AS on your bar. You will see if AS is OP, or if all the other powers are UP.
The stacking needed to go, but AS didn't need any further nerf. Whereas our other powers seriously needed some buffs or modifications. There is no way you can support a team with 18-20sec heals which heals 1/3 of potion or with a poor regen spell with static 15sec CD.
I'm not sure if you are trolling or if you are serious, but if you truly think that cleric needed a nerf and that AS is op while the rest is balanced, how about you record some video of you running T2 dungeon without AS on your bar ?
agreeable, they nerf AS without bringing any others thing up thats the main problem. plus, you cant support other if you can support yourself, I remind that cleric have "nerf" of -40% self healing. so do you guys who liking new-AS want to make cleric pull out all power to defense? ... well, like what he said: record some video of it. he maybe asking for T2, no I'm not, Im asking simply Epic Dungeon T1 Spider, Karrundax or Dread Vault perhaps ... but ... using a non-T1/T2 equip, imagine when you still try to grind dungeons for it. no need to argue, simply put to action, easy right?
Instead of a delver event which many people cant get it done because of different time zones, u guys should put maybe a daily cap for dungeons with the chest unlocked, maybe 2 runs a day per dungeon, or maybe sell a Delver chest key (unlikely but meh) it would help people that you know, get from work and would like to run a dungeon but they cant queue for it because the event is over and groups would hardly get together unless DD is on.
I know the whiners and speed runners will rage, but all of them are just exploiters.
That's very amusing given that you came out with unwarranted ad hominem at me. At least you had the courtesy to edit your post.
But to the point. I've not said anything about balance of AS in PvP, and nowhere have I stated that Astral Shield is OP in PvP. When I started leveling my cleric I read this PvE guide to the mechanics. Here is what the author of said guide, has to say about Astral Shield in PvE:
I do not believe there is any cleric in this game who actually thinks this spell as it is now on live is balanced in PvE.
I believe it was called OP (regardless of stacking) simply because the rest of our encounters are relatively poor by comparison. As a cleric you would be an idiot not to have Astral Shield on your hotbar, that goes before or after the balance update going live. We have literally nothing else which is as effective at keeping a group alive.
With the number of adds that spawn in this game hitting for so much and so quickly, not just with abilities but with basic attacks, those few seconds that Astral Shield is down will feel like a painful eternity.
If the devs buffed our other encounters, for example halving the cooldown on Bastion of Health and at least doubling its healing, then maybe we'd begin to have viable alternatives.
If AS is a must-have, it's not because it's OP, but because all other powers are underpowered. AS is the only viable power that can support a party. If you don't agree, try to run a dungeon without AS on your bar. You will see if AS is OP, or if all the other powers are UP.
I didn't say AS needed to be nerfed because it's a must have, I said that it needed to be nerfed because it was OP, which you have not denied in your sentence (or if you wanted to, then do explicitly state so). With these balance changes going live AS is still going to be a must have - and yes, I do know what happens when you try to run a dungeon without AS, and yes you are right that other powers could use some love, but playing the game without Astral Shield tells you nothing about Astral Shield, that's a tautology.
Also, if you bother looking through my posts history, you can find the two changes that I proposed for a cleric in one thread (which aren't the only two needed, but the thread asked to address the most important changes) and you'll see I really do not hate the class.
I believe it was called OP (regardless of stacking) simply because the rest of our encounters are relatively poor by comparison. As a cleric you would be an idiot not to have Astral Shield on your hotbar, that goes before or after the balance update going live. We have literally nothing else which is as effective at keeping a group alive.
With the number of adds that spawn in this game hitting for so much and so quickly, not just with abilities but with basic attacks, those few seconds that Astral Shield is down will feel like a painful eternity.
If the devs buffed our other encounters, for example halving the cooldown on Bastion of Health and at least doubling its healing, then maybe we'd begin to have viable alternatives.
I guess I may be that idiot.
I've made a second cleric. My first one was built for astral shield and support. My second cleric laughed at that approach after my first one got totally owned in level 60 PvP play. I'm wondering if I can get by on my second cleric if I don't go with astral shield which just zapped all of my first cleric's divine power. I found out in level 60 PvP play that astral shield is completely useless, the moment you toss it everyone goes after you and either one or two hits you or knocks you completely out of the shield area leaving you for an easy auto kill (you normally are auto killed in astral shield so it doesn't really make a difference). When my first cleric didn't cast astral shield it was largely ignored and left alone. At the moment I'm really enjoying my second cleric that single heals players just to build up its powers, heck the cleric casts spells left and right whether anything is even around it to max out its divinity. I wonder how it will fare at level 60, its currently around level 48. None of the changes being made to the cleric will affect it as it doesn't use any of those powers (only one it may train would be astral shield and I am so frustrated with AS after level 60 PvP play on my first cleric that I might avoid it entirely). I play my second cleric like it were a pirate all laden with explosives jumping onto a ship, it goes in blasts hard, pushes everything away, buffs the group if needed with a daily, explodes once or twice again, runs away while divine healing itself, and then looks around to see if anyone has died or needs support healed. I guess its a bombadere cleric. On the plus side, my second cleric places well in PvP so far as it tends to finish first or second on its team always and gets 4 to 10 kills and around 30 assists (basically it makes everyone almost dead and then others always steals its kills). It should do well up to level 59, then level 60 more than likely could be as worthless as the first (side note: if my second cleric doesn't work out at level 60 PvP, I will be quitting).
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angelxeyeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1
But yeah awsome free respec tokens, i feel this is a sign of good faith from cryptic towards the cmmunity, and reinforces the idee of a beta. And this was very much desired...
Agree- but still annoyed that there wont be a wipe- Beta has been frustrating because of the economic oopses and other inequalities. It was a dumb idea from the start to not have a wipe as this is beta and when the game openes it would have been nice to have a clean and fair playing field. Also, we all lvled WAY to fast. A lot of people are already done with the game, from what I hear. So guess we will see.
Agree- but still annoyed that there wont be a wipe- Beta has been frustrating because of the economic oopses and other inequalities. It was a dumb idea from the start to not have a wipe as this is beta and when the game openes it would have been nice to have a clean and fair playing field. Also, we all lvled WAY to fast. A lot of people are already done with the game, from what I hear. So guess we will see.
I find it hard to believe that people making this game could be happy there won't be a wipe.
IF Gauntlegrym t1/t2 really is the same thing as epic dungeon version t1/t2, the entire economy outside of enchants is going to bottom out completely in another month or two. There are already so few items worth anything, it's hard to believe.
At this point I buy gold off the AH at 20k AD for 16g when I need potions.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
I find it hard to believe that people making this game could be happy there won't be a wipe.
IF Gauntlegrym t1/t2 really is the same thing as epic dungeon version t1/t2, the entire economy outside of enchants is going to bottom out completely in another month or two. There are already so few items worth anything, it's hard to believe.
At this point I buy gold off the AH at 20k AD for 16g when I need potions.
it would help some, not a lot, if the auction house allowed players to post buy out bid offers. This would quickly bottom out prices while pushing up prices on the more desired ones and allowing people to instantly sell what they find rather than having it sit in the AH for five days. It would also help a lot if the default AH time was 1 day rather than 5 days as most just list at the duration the default is set at.
I don't think a wipe is going to matter one way or the other. The cost to take gems out of equipment is incredibly high. If new equipment is added to the game, people will be switching to the best they can get and real advantage will be gone unless players are willing to shell out a lot to get their upgrades back. The game also makes it so that upper level players no longer are able to find lower level items and gear so the only economy that is ruined is at the max level. What is bad though is that there is less and less items in the AH anymore. I've made two clerics and there was at least twice as much stuff in the AH when my first was leveling up than the second (I think this is a bad sign).
I do find it nice with my second cleric that many of the quests seem to be ones my first cleric didn't do. The first one must have leveled past them too fast.
This patch is bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> .... thanks to the over nerfing of Rogue... 60% what??
yes rogues are about as deadly as crib full of babies now
we are gonna see more CW in play...
what are the developers looking at? They don't nerf the super OP class CW but just give in to all the cry babies who cry OP ..
seriously wake up ur bloody idea devs...
else ur gonna kill this game....
I object to the nerfings...
if anything just buff GWF....
I love this game.... and thought it was the best for this year pls dun disappoint me... with such stunts....
It is clear to me that you have never had a crib full of babies thrown at you.
I find the GWF "buffs" incredibly underwhelming my GF cleave does 900 ish damage my GWF wicked strike does 700 ish (on the preview)
and does have a harsh diminishing return for multiple targets.
GWFs needs more damage, more control and mobility.
damage needs a 2.5x buff across the board not a meager +10% on some at-wills and 1 less second of cooldown on some encouters. control could be improved with simple changes such as knockdown on not so fast,punishing charge and reaping strike(max charge), stun on sure strike 4th hit and ibs(which could have charges and gain a charge on kill). mobility with free sprint during unstoppable, determination gain while unstoppable is up(extend duration), being able to activate while Knocked down(not instantly up, but for DR buff and no further CC), in addition set unstoppable to self activate on 100% or fix the bug on it going non functional.
some additional suggestions change sentinel capstone to +20% life steal and 30% deflect severity, unerf several feats such as
deep gash back to 50% and disciple of strength to 15% and buff devastating criticals to 15/20/25%.
a debuff like chill for the CW, named crippling blows, with 5 ranks minor/medium/major/serious/lethal wounds applied on crits and slow(attack and movement), drain stamina, reduce incoming heals. lasts 15s, downgrade instead of expiring unless its a minor wound.
to conclude, I'd like to point why I think these changes are needed. 3 top reasons.
1. GWF dealing less damage than a GF, I have both at similar GS and I'm witness to that.
2.ranged/hybrid CW/TR dealing way more damage than a melee class, even worse, a damage focused melee class. mind you on demand avoidance and superior CC on top of that.
3.a general feel of high risk no reward at both pvp/pve.
That's very amusing given that you came out with unwarranted ad hominem at me. At least you had the courtesy to edit your post.
But to the point. I've not said anything about balance of AS in PvP, and nowhere have I stated that Astral Shield is OP in PvP. When I started leveling my cleric I read this PvE guide to the mechanics. Here is what the author of said guide, has to say about Astral Shield in PvE:
I do not believe there is any cleric in this game who actually thinks this spell as it is now on live is balanced in PvE.
Yes someone said that, so? He's just another player and I have read that before, and definitely agree with it. He uses the term overpowered to tell people that it is a very important skill to have on. It doesn't mean a cleric with 9-11k GS will pop it up and become a demi-god. Like I said before, I wouldn't mind them nerfing it but I expected a, "Righteousness has been toned down to 20% (or completely removen)" and/or "sunburst now heals 60% more health points" or even "forgemaster's flame now has more range of heal and a constant healing pattern". Something to compensate for the loss of astral shield, and some divinity from the certain feat that was nerfed also. Now they are trash, not nerfed but broken.
Edit:
Now lets face it, castle never will still have a 2DC 2CW 1TR pattern because of this nerf, why? Because a 2nd cleric will need to be in there even more than before now, not to stack shield but to rotate it in compensation of the newer duration.
I just played an easy T2 which is Karrundax. Usually this fight is kind of easy but this time something interesting happened.
During the final boss, for some reason I died (i'm cleric) during the fight cause of a stun + aoes from 4 small dragons while AS just vanished.
Then guess what ? The shield was off. All the adds attacked my other teammates, since I was dead. No more add magnet cleric. Three players lasted 3seconds. The last one didn't last much longer.
3 seconds with no Astral Shield, while there were 15-20+ adds including 3 or 4 small dragons (last phase of boss), and while GF and GWF had aggro instead of cleric. They died instantly. They lasted 3seconds with no AS and no cleric magnet. If I had not died and could have used AS, the party members wouldn't have died. The party average gs was around 10-11k, and T2 dungeon is supposedly a 8300 gs dungeon.
After the wipe, we gave it a second shot and of course we crushed the boss because AS was here 100% of the time since I didn't got doomed stun+aoes.
Now I wonder, what will happen after the patch, when they will have to survive more than 5sec with no AS, and with aggro on their back ?
I'm affraid it will be the end of the end-game content.
I've made a second cleric. My first one was built for astral shield and support. My second cleric laughed at that approach after my first one got totally owned in level 60 PvP play. I'm wondering if I can get by on my second cleric if I don't go with astral shield which just zapped all of my first cleric's divine power. I found out in level 60 PvP play that astral shield is completely useless, the moment you toss it everyone goes after you and either one or two hits you or knocks you completely out of the shield area leaving you for an easy auto kill (you normally are auto killed in astral shield so it doesn't really make a difference). When my first cleric didn't cast astral shield it was largely ignored and left alone. At the moment I'm really enjoying my second cleric that single heals players just to build up its powers, heck the cleric casts spells left and right whether anything is even around it to max out its divinity. I wonder how it will fare at level 60, its currently around level 48. None of the changes being made to the cleric will affect it as it doesn't use any of those powers (only one it may train would be astral shield and I am so frustrated with AS after level 60 PvP play on my first cleric that I might avoid it entirely). I play my second cleric like it were a pirate all laden with explosives jumping onto a ship, it goes in blasts hard, pushes everything away, buffs the group if needed with a daily, explodes once or twice again, runs away while divine healing itself, and then looks around to see if anyone has died or needs support healed. I guess its a bombadere cleric. On the plus side, my second cleric places well in PvP so far as it tends to finish first or second on its team always and gets 4 to 10 kills and around 30 assists (basically it makes everyone almost dead and then others always steals its kills). It should do well up to level 59, then level 60 more than likely could be as worthless as the first (side note: if my second cleric doesn't work out at level 60 PvP, I will be quitting).
around level 50 my second cleric is getting owned, a massive downward spiral has taken place ever since around level 45... the cleric needs a lot of work and I definitely don't mean nerfing
I just played an easy T2 which is Karrundax. Usually this fight is kind of easy but this time something interesting happened.
During the final boss, for some reason I died (i'm cleric) during the fight cause of a stun + aoes from 4 small dragons while AS just vanished.
Then guess what ? The shield was off. All the adds attacked my other teammates, since I was dead. No more add magnet cleric. Three players lasted 3seconds. The last one didn't last much longer.
3 seconds with no Astral Shield, while there were 15-20+ adds including 3 or 4 small dragons (last phase of boss), and while GF and GWF had aggro instead of cleric. They died instantly. They lasted 3seconds with no AS and no cleric magnet. If I had not died and could have used AS, the party members wouldn't have died. The party average gs was around 10-11k, and T2 dungeon is supposedly a 8300 gs dungeon.
After the wipe, we gave it a second shot and of course we crushed the boss because AS was here 100% of the time since I didn't got doomed stun+aoes.
Now I wonder, what will happen after the patch, when they will have to survive more than 5sec with no AS, and with aggro on their back ?
I'm affraid it will be the end of the end-game content.
You're right man.There are no tanks. The patch will bring tanks to NWN. Currently when the GF has 20 adds after his *** he can't survive more than 2sec without AS, but the patch will turn him into a Maus capable of tanking boss + 30 adds altogether. AS would be for no use really.
The cleric is overpowered. a nerf was needed. Cleric is so op atm that there are plenty of clerics, you see them everywhere, but you hardly see any rogue to party with.
Moreover, cleric's heals are way too powerful, the potions are not of any use atm.
I think they should delete cleric because this class is OP and is game-breaking.
Then guess what ? The shield was off. All the adds attacked my other teammates, since I was dead. No more add magnet cleric. Three players lasted 3seconds. The last one didn't last much longer.
Cleric is not supposed to be agro manget, tank is. After a patch both Sentinel GWF and GF can tank adds, boss doesn't really need to be tanked anyway, most of the bosses, including Karrundax, are easily avoidable. What happens when a cleric dies atm is exactly what you described there - all the squishies fall down like flies and the tank dies last. After the patch you shouldn't even have agro to begin with.
I do not live in a denial, people do T2 dungeons on test server, they still use astral shield, they use tanks, a healing cleric with -threat passive has no issues with threat anymore. It's called trinity, how difficult of a concept is it to understand?
I started a new character cleric this week, since so many clerics are giving up, but now I see so many new clerics starting I no longer know if we need more clerics or tanks!
clerics will always be welcome in groups... I play cleric and although a tank is nice to have not having one doesn't prevent the group from running most dungeons, not having a cleric typically prevents a group from running. I don't know why there are so many cleric starts, but I abandoned my mage for my clerics cause at level 60 I couldn't find a group to play with we just stood around hoping and praying a cleric would come.
My new mage now has astral shield, so far has no plans of ever using it which is sure to upset many a player in EvE. Still trained it, but if I don't use it then I can have a ton of divine power at my disposal that I wouldn't have with it. I'm enjoying the weaker single heal of healing word a lot more than astral shield cause I can pump up my divine power and have a fantastic chance of triggering critical heal buffs. In PvP my first cleric is slaughtered cause it always lacks divine power, if we get a reset stone when all the changes take place it will become much stronger. Still my clerics use different end talents. I'm really curious to see which one will play the best in PvP and which one in game play. Low level PvP clerics are like gods... they slaughter everything up to level 20, then they slowly become worse and worse. It takes a lot of skill to play the cleric well, switching divine power on and off and targeting your spells so they don't completely miss everything can be quite challenging until you are use to it and even then you can mess up quite horribly.
I don't know how challenging it is to play anything other than cleric and control wizard. The wizard didn't have anything like divine power to contend with making it very simple to play. Not sure if any other class has a separate power supply that they have to constantly toggle on and off (this does slow things up quite a bit, especially if you are out of divine power and run around with a lit torch unable to attack or do anything).
Tanks are currently in very short supply. As a cleric though you are happy when there are two clerics in a group, so you have a much greater chance of that happening if you are one. I don't know if having two tanks is necessary, perhaps it is nice to have but I don't know.
People aren't making clerics cause they are over powered, they are making them cause at level 60 without one in a group there is no group and it is horrible waiting forever for a cleric to join if one ever does. A cleric has been a necessity, not due to them being over powered though and they likely need buffed a bit if they are going to be able to play everyone vs everyone PvP (will see though).
3 seconds with no Astral Shield, while there were 15-20+ adds including 3 or 4 small dragons (last phase of boss), and while GF and GWF had aggro instead of cleric. They died instantly. They lasted 3seconds with no AS and no cleric magnet. If I had not died and could have used AS, the party members wouldn't have died. The party average gs was around 10-11k, and T2 dungeon is supposedly a 8300 gs dungeon.
I'm sure there has been a lot of posts about the rogue nerfs so far, but I am going to give my 2 cents anyway. (Actually I just reformatted a discussion from another thread since I noticed this one exists).
Our Bleed tick timer was changed from 1 second to 1.5 seconds. Also our Deadly Momentum is being changed from 75% to 15% crit Severity. This comes out to a flat 50-60% damage nerf.
A better fix would be to nerf the tick timer like was done (which is simple and noninvasive) and then fix the bug that locks it into a crit. Problem solved. Also two birds with one stone. You nerfed our single target damage, and you fixed a bug that made our damage higher than intended.
But instead of that you all nerfed the bleed damage heavily AND took 60% CS away. Yes the 60% CS was a bug, but it was also the only reason we were actually better than CW's at DPS overall. Just fixing the either of these issues would have put CW DPS on par with rogues in dungeons. Which they shouldn't be anyway for various reasons.
Basically what really makes rogue damage look so unbalanced is that it's so easy. We literally just have to hold the left mouse button down and dodge circles, and that still does most of the DPS that we do when played extremely well. So any data you have comparing rogue dps to other classes is inherently scewed due to difficulty of doing single target damage.
The 50-60% I calculated breaks down more or less like this:
1. Bleed ticks are now 1.5 seconds instead of 1.0. So there is a flat 33% damage nerf (there are some other bugs currently affecting bleed damage on preview server right now, but discounting those since they are obvious bugs) to bleed damage. Currently Bleed damage is worth about 80% of our single target dps. Therefore this alone is about a 26% damage nerf.
2. Deadly Momentum is being reduced from 75% Crit Severity to 15%, which is a net 60% Crit Severity loss. If we assume a rogue has around 50% crit (which any rogue with at least T1 or so will), then CS (crit severity) translates quite literally half of it's % into a damage buff. That is to say that 60% CS = 30% damage. This is understating it though, because overrun critical further increases the value of CS. To be precise it increases the value of all CS by 15% (50% crit means 50% chance to increase damage by 30% of our CS. 30% * 50% = 15%). This means that the 60% we are losing is actually 69%. So dividing that by 2, the 60% CS we are losing actually equates to a 34.5% dps loss.
3. So adding these two sources together, we get a 60.5% dps loss. Not debatable or hard to understand losses, just a flat 60.5% nerf. We do gain a small amount from the increased power scaling, but from the numbers I have seen people calculate, it's at most a 4% buff. So we still have over a 55% flat DPS nerf.
Anyone who can honestly say that a 50-60% PVE damage nerf isn't an overnerf probably has no idea what they are talking about. Good CW's were only about 30% or so behind in "overall" damage in dungeons. On bosses, yes, rogues can generally pump out about 2-3x the damage of any other class if we get a good bleed crit. But the fix for this is not to nerf our overall damage into the ground.
I currently cannot copy my character to the preview server to get my own numbers to back some of this up with personal logs, but others have. (Please fix preview server character copies!).
You're right man.There are no tanks. The patch will bring tanks to NWN. Currently when the GF has 20 adds after his *** he can't survive more than 2sec without AS, but the patch will turn him into a Maus capable of tanking boss + 30 adds altogether. AS would be for no use really.
The cleric is overpowered. a nerf was needed. Cleric is so op atm that there are plenty of clerics, you see them everywhere, but you hardly see any rogue to party with.
....
You kidding right? There are less and less DCs out there. You are clearly don't know what you are talking about...OP Clerics...yea right...
Comments
Based on the skills and feats available it was pretty easy to see the build could easily be DPS oriented regardless of what the class was called. Look through them and tell me if you find more DPS or control available. If in fact the goal is to force the class into more of a control role then the reduced DPS should have been offset with an significant increase in control capabilities,duration etc. As for your friends who enjoy playing a crowd control role that's fantastic. Many of us however enjoy playing caster dps roles. Hopefully they add that role or perhaps this just wont end up being the game for some of us.
agreeable, they nerf AS without bringing any others thing up thats the main problem. plus, you cant support other if you can support yourself, I remind that cleric have "nerf" of -40% self healing. so do you guys who liking new-AS want to make cleric pull out all power to defense? ... well, like what he said: record some video of it. he maybe asking for T2, no I'm not, Im asking simply Epic Dungeon T1 Spider, Karrundax or Dread Vault perhaps ... but ... using a non-T1/T2 equip, imagine when you still try to grind dungeons for it. no need to argue, simply put to action, easy right?
I know the whiners and speed runners will rage, but all of them are just exploiters.
I believe it was called OP (regardless of stacking) simply because the rest of our encounters are relatively poor by comparison. As a cleric you would be an idiot not to have Astral Shield on your hotbar, that goes before or after the balance update going live. We have literally nothing else which is as effective at keeping a group alive.
With the number of adds that spawn in this game hitting for so much and so quickly, not just with abilities but with basic attacks, those few seconds that Astral Shield is down will feel like a painful eternity.
If the devs buffed our other encounters, for example halving the cooldown on Bastion of Health and at least doubling its healing, then maybe we'd begin to have viable alternatives.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?329632-Gameplay-updates-for-GWF/page24
Most of it is good. Some arguments but for the most part sincere opinions.
I didn't say AS needed to be nerfed because it's a must have, I said that it needed to be nerfed because it was OP, which you have not denied in your sentence (or if you wanted to, then do explicitly state so). With these balance changes going live AS is still going to be a must have - and yes, I do know what happens when you try to run a dungeon without AS, and yes you are right that other powers could use some love, but playing the game without Astral Shield tells you nothing about Astral Shield, that's a tautology.
Also, if you bother looking through my posts history, you can find the two changes that I proposed for a cleric in one thread (which aren't the only two needed, but the thread asked to address the most important changes) and you'll see I really do not hate the class.
I guess I may be that idiot.
I've made a second cleric. My first one was built for astral shield and support. My second cleric laughed at that approach after my first one got totally owned in level 60 PvP play. I'm wondering if I can get by on my second cleric if I don't go with astral shield which just zapped all of my first cleric's divine power. I found out in level 60 PvP play that astral shield is completely useless, the moment you toss it everyone goes after you and either one or two hits you or knocks you completely out of the shield area leaving you for an easy auto kill (you normally are auto killed in astral shield so it doesn't really make a difference). When my first cleric didn't cast astral shield it was largely ignored and left alone. At the moment I'm really enjoying my second cleric that single heals players just to build up its powers, heck the cleric casts spells left and right whether anything is even around it to max out its divinity. I wonder how it will fare at level 60, its currently around level 48. None of the changes being made to the cleric will affect it as it doesn't use any of those powers (only one it may train would be astral shield and I am so frustrated with AS after level 60 PvP play on my first cleric that I might avoid it entirely). I play my second cleric like it were a pirate all laden with explosives jumping onto a ship, it goes in blasts hard, pushes everything away, buffs the group if needed with a daily, explodes once or twice again, runs away while divine healing itself, and then looks around to see if anyone has died or needs support healed. I guess its a bombadere cleric. On the plus side, my second cleric places well in PvP so far as it tends to finish first or second on its team always and gets 4 to 10 kills and around 30 assists (basically it makes everyone almost dead and then others always steals its kills). It should do well up to level 59, then level 60 more than likely could be as worthless as the first (side note: if my second cleric doesn't work out at level 60 PvP, I will be quitting).
Agree- but still annoyed that there wont be a wipe- Beta has been frustrating because of the economic oopses and other inequalities. It was a dumb idea from the start to not have a wipe as this is beta and when the game openes it would have been nice to have a clean and fair playing field. Also, we all lvled WAY to fast. A lot of people are already done with the game, from what I hear. So guess we will see.
I find it hard to believe that people making this game could be happy there won't be a wipe.
IF Gauntlegrym t1/t2 really is the same thing as epic dungeon version t1/t2, the entire economy outside of enchants is going to bottom out completely in another month or two. There are already so few items worth anything, it's hard to believe.
At this point I buy gold off the AH at 20k AD for 16g when I need potions.
it would help some, not a lot, if the auction house allowed players to post buy out bid offers. This would quickly bottom out prices while pushing up prices on the more desired ones and allowing people to instantly sell what they find rather than having it sit in the AH for five days. It would also help a lot if the default AH time was 1 day rather than 5 days as most just list at the duration the default is set at.
I don't think a wipe is going to matter one way or the other. The cost to take gems out of equipment is incredibly high. If new equipment is added to the game, people will be switching to the best they can get and real advantage will be gone unless players are willing to shell out a lot to get their upgrades back. The game also makes it so that upper level players no longer are able to find lower level items and gear so the only economy that is ruined is at the max level. What is bad though is that there is less and less items in the AH anymore. I've made two clerics and there was at least twice as much stuff in the AH when my first was leveling up than the second (I think this is a bad sign).
I do find it nice with my second cleric that many of the quests seem to be ones my first cleric didn't do. The first one must have leveled past them too fast.
It is the only decent looking helmet for clerics.
This is very important.
It is clear to me that you have never had a crib full of babies thrown at you.
and does have a harsh diminishing return for multiple targets.
GWFs needs more damage, more control and mobility.
damage needs a 2.5x buff across the board not a meager +10% on some at-wills and 1 less second of cooldown on some encouters.
control could be improved with simple changes such as knockdown on not so fast,punishing charge and reaping strike(max charge), stun on sure strike 4th hit and ibs(which could have charges and gain a charge on kill).
mobility with free sprint during unstoppable, determination gain while unstoppable is up(extend duration), being able to activate while Knocked down(not instantly up, but for DR buff and no further CC), in addition set unstoppable to self activate on 100% or fix the bug on it going non functional.
some additional suggestions change sentinel capstone to +20% life steal and 30% deflect severity, unerf several feats such as
deep gash back to 50% and disciple of strength to 15% and buff devastating criticals to 15/20/25%.
a debuff like chill for the CW, named crippling blows, with 5 ranks minor/medium/major/serious/lethal wounds applied on crits and slow(attack and movement), drain stamina, reduce incoming heals. lasts 15s, downgrade instead of expiring unless its a minor wound.
to conclude, I'd like to point why I think these changes are needed. 3 top reasons.
1. GWF dealing less damage than a GF, I have both at similar GS and I'm witness to that.
2.ranged/hybrid CW/TR dealing way more damage than a melee class, even worse, a damage focused melee class. mind you on demand avoidance and superior CC on top of that.
3.a general feel of high risk no reward at both pvp/pve.
Hedas 60 GWF.
Hrod 60 GF.
Alain Loreweaver 60 CW.
Dragon.
Edit:
Now lets face it, castle never will still have a 2DC 2CW 1TR pattern because of this nerf, why? Because a 2nd cleric will need to be in there even more than before now, not to stack shield but to rotate it in compensation of the newer duration.
During the final boss, for some reason I died (i'm cleric) during the fight cause of a stun + aoes from 4 small dragons while AS just vanished.
Then guess what ? The shield was off. All the adds attacked my other teammates, since I was dead. No more add magnet cleric. Three players lasted 3seconds. The last one didn't last much longer.
3 seconds with no Astral Shield, while there were 15-20+ adds including 3 or 4 small dragons (last phase of boss), and while GF and GWF had aggro instead of cleric. They died instantly. They lasted 3seconds with no AS and no cleric magnet. If I had not died and could have used AS, the party members wouldn't have died. The party average gs was around 10-11k, and T2 dungeon is supposedly a 8300 gs dungeon.
After the wipe, we gave it a second shot and of course we crushed the boss because AS was here 100% of the time since I didn't got doomed stun+aoes.
Now I wonder, what will happen after the patch, when they will have to survive more than 5sec with no AS, and with aggro on their back ?
I'm affraid it will be the end of the end-game content.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
around level 50 my second cleric is getting owned, a massive downward spiral has taken place ever since around level 45... the cleric needs a lot of work and I definitely don't mean nerfing
Bring a tank.
You know what ? We will see how it's goin when the patch is released. Don't blame anyone if things get worse.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
No, you didn't have a tank, at least not a viable tank, because such a concept doesn't exist in this game atm.
The cleric is overpowered. a nerf was needed. Cleric is so op atm that there are plenty of clerics, you see them everywhere, but you hardly see any rogue to party with.
Moreover, cleric's heals are way too powerful, the potions are not of any use atm.
I think they should delete cleric because this class is OP and is game-breaking.
Oh wait...
You really live in denial.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
Cleric is not supposed to be agro manget, tank is. After a patch both Sentinel GWF and GF can tank adds, boss doesn't really need to be tanked anyway, most of the bosses, including Karrundax, are easily avoidable. What happens when a cleric dies atm is exactly what you described there - all the squishies fall down like flies and the tank dies last. After the patch you shouldn't even have agro to begin with.
I do not live in a denial, people do T2 dungeons on test server, they still use astral shield, they use tanks, a healing cleric with -threat passive has no issues with threat anymore. It's called trinity, how difficult of a concept is it to understand?
My new mage now has astral shield, so far has no plans of ever using it which is sure to upset many a player in EvE. Still trained it, but if I don't use it then I can have a ton of divine power at my disposal that I wouldn't have with it. I'm enjoying the weaker single heal of healing word a lot more than astral shield cause I can pump up my divine power and have a fantastic chance of triggering critical heal buffs. In PvP my first cleric is slaughtered cause it always lacks divine power, if we get a reset stone when all the changes take place it will become much stronger. Still my clerics use different end talents. I'm really curious to see which one will play the best in PvP and which one in game play. Low level PvP clerics are like gods... they slaughter everything up to level 20, then they slowly become worse and worse. It takes a lot of skill to play the cleric well, switching divine power on and off and targeting your spells so they don't completely miss everything can be quite challenging until you are use to it and even then you can mess up quite horribly.
I don't know how challenging it is to play anything other than cleric and control wizard. The wizard didn't have anything like divine power to contend with making it very simple to play. Not sure if any other class has a separate power supply that they have to constantly toggle on and off (this does slow things up quite a bit, especially if you are out of divine power and run around with a lit torch unable to attack or do anything).
Tanks are currently in very short supply. As a cleric though you are happy when there are two clerics in a group, so you have a much greater chance of that happening if you are one. I don't know if having two tanks is necessary, perhaps it is nice to have but I don't know.
People aren't making clerics cause they are over powered, they are making them cause at level 60 without one in a group there is no group and it is horrible waiting forever for a cleric to join if one ever does. A cleric has been a necessity, not due to them being over powered though and they likely need buffed a bit if they are going to be able to play everyone vs everyone PvP (will see though).
Is this for PvP, PvE, or both? Please leave it as-is for PvE!!
I guess you didn't read this part:
also :
this I believe means, shield up front is ok, what about aggro on his/her rear end?
actually it is okay IF they raise the GF base defense and GWF base damage which they didn't
Our Bleed tick timer was changed from 1 second to 1.5 seconds. Also our Deadly Momentum is being changed from 75% to 15% crit Severity. This comes out to a flat 50-60% damage nerf.
A better fix would be to nerf the tick timer like was done (which is simple and noninvasive) and then fix the bug that locks it into a crit. Problem solved. Also two birds with one stone. You nerfed our single target damage, and you fixed a bug that made our damage higher than intended.
But instead of that you all nerfed the bleed damage heavily AND took 60% CS away. Yes the 60% CS was a bug, but it was also the only reason we were actually better than CW's at DPS overall. Just fixing the either of these issues would have put CW DPS on par with rogues in dungeons. Which they shouldn't be anyway for various reasons.
Basically what really makes rogue damage look so unbalanced is that it's so easy. We literally just have to hold the left mouse button down and dodge circles, and that still does most of the DPS that we do when played extremely well. So any data you have comparing rogue dps to other classes is inherently scewed due to difficulty of doing single target damage.
The 50-60% I calculated breaks down more or less like this:
1. Bleed ticks are now 1.5 seconds instead of 1.0. So there is a flat 33% damage nerf (there are some other bugs currently affecting bleed damage on preview server right now, but discounting those since they are obvious bugs) to bleed damage. Currently Bleed damage is worth about 80% of our single target dps. Therefore this alone is about a 26% damage nerf.
2. Deadly Momentum is being reduced from 75% Crit Severity to 15%, which is a net 60% Crit Severity loss. If we assume a rogue has around 50% crit (which any rogue with at least T1 or so will), then CS (crit severity) translates quite literally half of it's % into a damage buff. That is to say that 60% CS = 30% damage. This is understating it though, because overrun critical further increases the value of CS. To be precise it increases the value of all CS by 15% (50% crit means 50% chance to increase damage by 30% of our CS. 30% * 50% = 15%). This means that the 60% we are losing is actually 69%. So dividing that by 2, the 60% CS we are losing actually equates to a 34.5% dps loss.
3. So adding these two sources together, we get a 60.5% dps loss. Not debatable or hard to understand losses, just a flat 60.5% nerf. We do gain a small amount from the increased power scaling, but from the numbers I have seen people calculate, it's at most a 4% buff. So we still have over a 55% flat DPS nerf.
Anyone who can honestly say that a 50-60% PVE damage nerf isn't an overnerf probably has no idea what they are talking about. Good CW's were only about 30% or so behind in "overall" damage in dungeons. On bosses, yes, rogues can generally pump out about 2-3x the damage of any other class if we get a good bleed crit. But the fix for this is not to nerf our overall damage into the ground.
I currently cannot copy my character to the preview server to get my own numbers to back some of this up with personal logs, but others have. (Please fix preview server character copies!).
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
You kidding right? There are less and less DCs out there. You are clearly don't know what you are talking about...OP Clerics...yea right...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]