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  • darnselddarnseld Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Repost to keep the debate about CW and Cleric's nerfs alive, and address feat issues not revised in the major update that are worrisome.
    droodz92 wrote: »
    Being a 12K CW who has run Castle Never every day 4 to 6 times a day, I'm telling you that all your nerfs for CW when you don't touch TR, cause it's only like putting illusionary powder saying "oh yeah we nerfed TR" is bull****. You nerf "Ray of enfeeblement" BY FEATS, BY BASE DAMAGE AND BY %DMG BY RANK, It's our ONLY DESCENT "MONO TARGET" SPELL, You've made shadow weaver worthless, CW will practically be useless except to push mobs from ledge. Buffing sudden storm? Cool we'll have to be semi melee semi distance hero, seriously you dev should play CW instead of playing other classes. thanks for making all end game content CW reroll to ranger, your changes are stupid we were the more BALANCED CLASS. Great job for changing tooltips and bugged feats, still you went way too far on that Nerf for CW. +1 for buff on GF and GWF though, It was the only thing needed, touching CW was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.

    Btw check smulch's post in page 13.
    And then after that wide explanation of why many of those nerfs for CW are unfair... we have this jewel:
    kilo418 wrote: »
    They nerfed the damage on a class that is supposed to be primarily crowd control.... Working as intended

    Yeah sure... working as intended. Now even the CC skills are weaker than before, at least the few AoE CC ones we had *not exclusively related but good example: the silly/laughable Area of Effect of Icy Terrain*. Unless you spec oppressor only, which would mean paragon paths are unecessary because every single class is meant just for one role.. right? set your ideas straight my friend. Just because you specifically have been outmatched and owned by some CWS in dungeons or pvp *Im pretty sure of this by your superb and arrogant-hurt attitude* does not mean the class as a whole deserves it.

    diogene0 wrote: »
    Well i can't say i'm thrilled to see these changes in game. This is basically a nerf of clerics, and control wizards to a lesser extent. You nerfed two cleric parties (great for pick up groups isn't it, as we had any choice anyway?), so i won't be really able to play with other cleric friends, and you even nerfed cleaneses, which didn't really harmed the game. I won't test that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, i'll wait and see when it hits the open beta server, and will probably leave since you made the cleric job so painful and almost forbid me to play with the people i want to play with if they play another cleric. There should be some bonuses and not punishing players to play with 2 clerics.

    You didn't even fix the miracle healer set, which is broken and doesn't heal the party but only one party member. GG cryptic, have fun developing your game, i'll probably be out when this patch hits the main server.



    Pardon their rude manners... however I think they've some points there with everything they've stated. Please pay attention to that. Cleric class was savagely nerfed, I think some tweaks were needed but it was not necessary to push it this far, specially because one can realise some of these changes were made pvp-thinking not with pve in mind. Perhaps the wisest option could be to have some of these nerfed in PVP but not in PvE.

    Also, the CW class as above-mentioned, was one of the most BALANCED class of the game. They could provide sufficient control whenever it was important, and do maximum damage MAXIMUM Not excessive NOT Overpowered dmg. Excess control is a waste, excess damage cannot be made for CWS in general, their core structure does not allow it SO WHY THE NERFING? . Their Squishiness compensated their dps capacity and their CC necessity specially in epic dungeons COUNTERED their dps roles most of the times, that's balance. Many ppl complained about CWS being OP, I don't think so, they were just ok, perhaps one nerfing but so many ? And what happened with Tempest Magic *not working as intended with tieflings' racial trait bloodhunt*, Wizard's Wrath or Focused Wizardry? Some of the feats that were also bugged not affecting some AoE attacks or just a handful of them like two or three . Or Chill Strike with the aforementioned feats and Snap Freeze bugged when tabbed *not displaying the proper dmg increment* . Are you guys going to look into those ? Chaos Magic also somewhat nerfed... and Reaper's Touch, whose effect I barely note even within 20 fts from target* ALSO nerfed. Come on guys I beg you, reconsider these changes, specially the ones mentioned by droodz92. The rest of your CW'S tweaks are pretty much ok.

    +20 for the GWF'S modifications
    +10 for GF
    - 20 Clerics
    - 15 CW
    +8 Trickster although you could do it better than just nerfin that much their Shocking Execution rendering it almost useless.
    +60 for system and gameplay's tweaks
    Total Score out of 100
    63
    Nevertheless Im completely aware there has been a substantial effort in this major update, and I'm really grateful for that seriously, you did some fine work on it. BUT PLEASE PLEASE, check and polish again some of those changes before their implementation.
    Thank you all :)
  • sirxluissirxluis Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    remove righteousness and make astral shield last 15 seconds again
  • grtaylorgrtaylor Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 35
    edited June 2013
    sirxluis wrote: »
    remove righteousness and make astral shield last 15 seconds again

    Wow, so what... a cleric can solo almost everything. I was playing in the beta when we did not have righteousness and i was doing instanced content with only my healer comp and not having any issues at all. I am not saying that I like the changes I am just saying that I kind of understand what they tried to do with them.
  • rangurenranguren Member Posts: 4
    edited June 2013
    for those who think it is okay to reduce the uptime of AS, someone already post what happen on test server when he try enter Epic Dungeon, here is the post (taken from The Temple):
    yult wrote: »
    I just did some testing on Mimic server. Not sure which thread to throw this in so I guess I'll put it here. This is more on how important AS is and less on how people will complete content with the nerf, just fyi.

    I ran Epic Spider with DC, GWFx2, TR, GF. The DC (myself) is full t2 and CN set. GF is a regular in my groups and has full t2 and CN set. One of the GWFs was full T2, CN set, perfect enchant, GS over 13k. TR and GWF#2 were in mostly t2 and some t1/pvp gear. All that is to just give an idea of how strong the group was. TR was also a friend, not a pug.

    First I wanted to try running without AS at all, so I did that. I was using Sunburst, D-FF, and then rotating between Healing Word and Bastion of Health, testing both. Everyone learned pretty quick why AS is so important. We wiped on the first boss, or near enough at least, we killed him but the last of us died as soon as the boss died.

    We wiped once or twice clearing to the 2nd boss. A large part of this was the lack of AS, but the cleanse nerf also played a serious role. The revive debuff thing makes a HUGE difference. We managed to kill the 2nd boss without any permanent deaths, miraculously.

    We then wiped, gloriously I might add, to the phase spiders before boss room. I anticipated that, of course. We lasted about 15 seconds I think. I pulled out AS to get past them.

    Finally, I wanted to try the final boss without AS. As you might have guessed, we wiped within a minute, probably closer to 40 seconds. Yeah, then we went and killed her while I used AS, but that is hardly worth notice considering our gear far outstripping the place.

    None of this testing is super useful except to say that Astral Shield is without a doubt the SINGLE REQUIRED POWER in the game. Every other ability, regardless of class, is interchangeable and optional. Astral Shield is absolutely required for any remotely difficult content, and the difference between using the power and not using it is astounding.
  • lostmarblesherelostmarbleshere Banned Users Posts: 654 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    So how goes the testing on the test server?

    Hows the balance now?

    Are the exploits fixed?

    IS pvp still a bots happy land?

    Did anymore exploits pop up?
  • johnygwapojohnygwapo Member Posts: 442 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    cant wait for the changes on CW (chill rocks!)
  • dzogendzogen Member Posts: 550 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    where are the gelatinous cubes in the foundry?
    Dzogen, Moonstar Agent
    Bill's Tavern | The 27th Level | Secret Agent 34
  • farcursefarcurse Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 46
    edited June 2013
    Control wiz cant control , control skills are mostly useless we debuff mobs and make them easyer to kill , and they are taking that away ...... also instead of fixing stuff they are messing whit what works , i haven't been playing my cw because its broken like hell , on top of that its getting a Nerf...... hmmm....

    u guys wana gimp the dmg a control wizard does ...give it an extra encounter slot and make the skills work on everything (pve ) then most of us wont complain about doing less dmg .. also would be nice to be able to cast at wills on the move ...... u guys wana fix pvp give players more HP or better yet gimp the dmg like 50% dmg reduction for everyone .... no more 1 shooting players no more complaints ..... and ppl will required more teamwork

    so now when u go into a dungeon and u are having issues whit adds because they are alive and kicking give tnx the wise all knowing devs for the gimp on that cw that used to make them dead ( because most of u melee classes only know how to rush to the boss and fight it )

    o wait they are gimping cleric too......... this is gona be funy ...... a TR doing less dmg ( bosses taking longer to kill ) clerics having issues because of the gimp and CW that cant control mobs , and cant debuff them properly... the defender getting swarmed by mobs due to extra hate...... lets just hope GWF can save the day .. (if they actually fixed it )

    also i have a question, where are the class feat fixes ? ( not the gimps the actual fixes ) where are the armor proc fixes ?
    wheres the AH fix ? one that allows u to search in a lvl range ... remember ?

    how about u guys keep all the changes and take the cleric - cw - tr changes out of the update and work on those a tad longer
    and keep pvp tweaks in pvp area and pve stuff remains the same and u actualy fix the feats and class skills
  • johnygwapojohnygwapo Member Posts: 442 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    farcurse wrote: »
    Control wiz cant control , control skills are mostly useless we debuff mobs and make them easyer to kill , and they are taking that away ...... also instead of fixing stuff they are messing whit what works , i haven't been playing my cw because its broken like hell , on top of that its getting a Nerf...... hmmm....

    u guys wana gimp the dmg a control wizard does ...give it an extra encounter slot and make the skills work on everything (pve ) then most of us wont complain about doing less dmg .. also would be nice to be able to cast at wills on the move ...... u guys wana fix pvp give players more HP or better yet gimp the dmg like 50% dmg reduction for everyone .... no more 1 shooting players no more complaints ..... and ppl will required more teamwork

    so now when u go into a dungeon and u are having issues whit adds because they are alive and kicking give tnx the wise all knowing devs for the gimp on that cw that used to make them dead ( because most of u melee classes only know how to rush to the boss and fight it )

    o wait they are gimping cleric too......... this is gona be funy ...... a TR doing less dmg ( bosses taking longer to kill ) clerics having issues because of the gimp and CW that cant control mobs , and cant debuff them properly... the defender getting swarmed by mobs due to extra hate...... lets just hope GWF can save the day .. (if they actually fixed it )

    also i have a question, where are the class feat fixes ? ( not the gimps the actual fixes ) where are the armor proc fixes ?
    wheres the AH fix ? one that allows u to search in a lvl range ... remember ?

    how about u guys keep all the changes and take the cleric - cw - tr changes out of the update and work on those a tad longer
    and keep pvp tweaks in pvp area and pve stuff remains the same and u actualy fix the feats and class skills

    man it seems that you dont know how to read -.-
    can you pls read the upcoming updates again? you better be happy, because its written there that controls now will affect to bosses or whoever/whatever is immuned at the present.
  • farcursefarcurse Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 46
    edited June 2013
    johnygwapo wrote: »
    man it seems that you dont know how to read -.-
    can you pls read the upcoming updates again? you better be happy, because its written there that controls now will affect to bosses or whoever/whatever is immuned at the present.

    Go read it again...... Chill will afect targets but u will be unable to freeze or control them AKA then only run slower .. and i am not even sure about the slow part too

    "Chill may now stack on control-immune NPCs, but does not snare or freeze them."
  • nichivonichivo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 83
    edited June 2013
    It's obvious they are over nerfing CW's, DC's, and TR's. I can only guess it's because of whiners in PVP. I pvp a lot and things are not nearly as unbalanced as some of the changes would imply. Worse yet some of the changes will force cookie cutter builds and just increase the min max garbage, because non min max players will suffer more. I'm shocked more people have not noticed some of the things broken in the changes. They seriously have to rethink sending some of these changes live.
  • devlinnedevlinne Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    TR nerf got ya down huh. Oh well....just remember devs. YOU did this to make the whiners happy...so after they STILL get owned after the nerf....Ya better realize that there is no end to crying, and no way to please everyone. After this patch/nerf....LEAVE US BE.
    PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
  • sabouma1979sabouma1979 Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    My 2 cents.... it would be awesome if we could skip the tutorial. After 3 characters I've had quite enough of that....
  • uri92uri92 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I suggest that the devs try and play some clerics in PVP. Level 60 of course.
    PVP is broken when you play Cleric. People keep focusing you, even if 4 people are fighting before you arrive, as soon as you do arrive all the opponents will focus you and you will die within 2-3 seconds. There is no fun at all.

    PVE every mobs focus you.
    PVP every players focus you.

    Can you fight back ? No.
    Your heals won't help you vs TR who two shots you or CW who kill you during CC.
    Your skillshot dps skills won't help you either, I mean my cleric is 11K GS with 4600 power and in PVP my Daunting Light barely hit for 2-3k most of the time (no crit). And this is a delayed skillshot and the one we have that deals the most damage (except daily).

    At the moment the opponents decide that the cleric must be the main target, then the cleric is useless and might aswell AFK at camp fire.
    And this statement is on LIVE. It's even worse on Shard.

    Can anyone tell me which other class but cleric has its mechanical passive class skill considered as a NERF (Righteousness) ?

    Cleric on LIVE is already the less fun class playable. Add magnet, poor heal except Astral Shield, enemy magnet in PVP... <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dps, yes <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dps, whoever willing to discuss it roll a cleric and level it to 60, then we discuss.

    And now what ? Cleric get 4 nerfs on his best powers/talents ? Yeah, bite me.
    Astral Shield, Cleanse, Etheral Boon, Divine Armor... And no buff of course. Might aswell delete the cleric. Icing on the cake, we get a PVP nerf and our heals won't reward us with assist.

    Why don't you delete cleric instead of simply killing it already ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    - DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    ^ How did Divine Armor get nerfed again? *scratch head*
  • uri92uri92 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    No more stack with other clerics.

    Consider it as a fix or whatever you want but the fact is that this skill is nerfed since it won't be able to do what it currently does.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    - DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
  • drpallisadedrpallisade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 43
    edited June 2013
    I am going to send a box of Tissues to all people in this thread :) and a invite to a seat by the river.
    Castle Dunsmere
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    uri92 wrote: »
    No more stack with other clerics.

    Consider it as a fix or whatever you want but the fact is that this skill is nerfed since it won't be able to do what it currently does.

    Holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, you might have to stack Divine Armor with Hallowed Ground instead! THE HORROR!
  • uri92uri92 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Yeah ty, think i'm **** ?

    Only talking about facts here.
    Divine Armor got nerfed, along with all our best powers.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    - DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
  • rangurenranguren Member Posts: 4
    edited June 2013
    uri92 wrote: »
    No more stack with other clerics.

    Consider it as a fix or whatever you want but the fact is that this skill is nerfed since it won't be able to do what it currently does.

    you still can stack Divine Armor + Hallowed Ground + AS that still something
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    uri92 wrote: »
    Yeah ty, think i'm **** ?

    Only talking about facts here.
    Divine Armor got nerfed, along with all our best powers.

    The fact is that cleric stacking got nerfed - if you do not understand why that got nerfed, or if you have any doubt that it was a justified and absolutely necessary thing to do, then I'm afraid no argument that I, or anyone else here, can present will change your mind.
  • uri92uri92 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    OK and now how were the other nerfs justified ?

    AS duration, Cleanse, Etheral Boons ?

    Only fixes ?
    Yeah, fixes that will kill cleric.

    Have you ever run castle never without AS 100% ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    - DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I find it quite amusing that everybody and his dog knew that AS was overpowered, and when it gets toned down everybody and his dog starts running in amok doomsaying.

    edit: In case you are an MMO virgin, it's not healer's role to prevent party members from taking damage, that's what tanks are for, that's why AS got nerfed.
  • superkhesuperkhe Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Now that the threat thing has been fixed, it will probably be good if the GF includes damage reduction in their builds to support. Before to hold aggro you had to go full damage and stuffs. Just saying.
  • uri92uri92 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Healer role is to heal, I agree.

    Any power that can heal effectively ?
    Sunburst ? lol

    AS was good because it was cleric's best heal. Except AS, cleric can't heal effectively.
    Healing word ? 15sec CD with no cd reduction from Recovery.
    Sunburst ? 1200hp heal
    Bastion of Health ? 4k heal 18sec CD
    Forgemaster ? Too situational cause you target enemy. Low uptime.

    If you nerf AS cause it's OP then you need to make other heals reliable. They are not.

    If AS is op then what is CW Singularity ? Seriously ? Why would you pick TR or GWF when CW got Singularity and can CC the entire field ? Why are 2 CW so popular ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    - DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Normally I'd say that your healing will be just fine after the patch, but I'm not sure since I'm getting an impression you don't understand why Sunburst is absolutely amazing.

    And seriously, the sheer fact that you have the nerve to compare AS to another class' daily power is enough to picture how OP AS is atm.
  • rangurenranguren Member Posts: 4
    edited June 2013
    superkhe wrote: »
    Now that the threat thing has been fixed, it will probably be good if the GF includes damage reduction in their builds to support. Before to hold aggro you had to go full damage and stuffs. Just saying.

    just hoping that would be enough, DC actually can be build quite a damage but since it has role of "healer" most people build it this way. I believe all cleric user know healer build is not good, since all healing abilities, except AS, need to cut down 40% for self use, but this is team game not individual so for everyone sake ok then. even though I was disappointed because of the AS uptime nerf (just the uptime) but I would lie if I say i'm not relieve by the update. why? because cleric most of the time have taken blame if party died, after this one, well, ask the GF.
  • rizoguerizogue Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 134 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I have been *****ing for 40 days about the ridiculous restriction Cryptic placed on implementing the drow as a playable race. This is my first chance to see it as a blessing. I'm not getting any of my characters buffed or nerfed. I still haven't been able to make them, because my race hasn't been released yet! :cool: My half-orc GF is just a full-time AD farmer in armor that is just wasting a character slot until I can finally make my characters.

    My point? Once I finally get to start making my drow characters, I'll never even know the difference!

    20 days!!

    Rizogue
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Join our Neverwinter Discussions: http://www.menzoberranzan.net
    Now Recruiting - All races and classes! Menzoberranzan Guild Recruitment
  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    terhix wrote: »
    The fact is that cleric stacking got nerfed - if you do not understand why that got nerfed, or if you have any doubt that it was a justified and absolutely necessary thing to do, then I'm afraid no argument that I, or anyone else here, can present will change your mind.

    Pretty much this.
  • uri92uri92 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    terhix wrote: »
    Normally I'd say that your healing will be just fine after the patch, but I'm not sure since I'm getting an impression you don't understand why Sunburst is absolutely amazing.

    And seriously, the sheer fact that you have the nerve to compare AS to another class' daily power is enough to picture how OP AS is atm.

    No, no. I'm not comparing Singularity to AS, but to GWF and TR dailies.
    Now tell me, what is the most reliable ? Siingularity ? Or GWF spintowin ?

    Yeah, exactly what I thought.
    Then why no nerf to Singularity considering this daily is above all others ? Why would you party with a GWF instead of a CW ? No reason actually.

    That in mind, now why do they need to nerf the cleric's only viable power ? I don't know if you play cleric or not, but if you don't then you will get hurt as much as cleric is, cause no AS is no heal for anyone, no damage mitigation is easy death, and no cleric is no dungeon.

    I know exactly why Sunburst is great. Because it is an AP/D generator, a knock-back on D mode, and a small aoe heal with 8-9sec CD.
    But this small aoe heal is clearly not enough to keep a party alive. And AS appart, cleric doesn't have anything good to keep his party alive, 5 seconds is eternity when you have crazy adds all around the place.

    What is pathetic is not the fact that they nerf AS, Etheral Boon, Cleanse, but the fact that cleric gets only nerfs and no buff at all to make up for it. Not even mentioning PVP cause cleric will have no reason for entering PVP after this patch except dying and dying again.

    But I assume that you will enjoy a game with 5% clerics and 3 hours waiting for a dungeon.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    - DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
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