First, a dedicated trade channel should be made and I know that players CAN make a trade channel.
However, I do like the report spam causing a ban on public chat channels. It should however still allow Party chat and Guild Chat. It should block whispers and the ability to invite to parties.
That would be a good fix. It would allow it to function as intended, automuting gold spammers and the like. Then if the not spammers get kicked out of their guilds for trying to sell items, they'll know it was nobody's fault but their own.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
I don't get why people are so ignorant of the real problem we have at hand.
At the moment, the way I see it, there is no clear rule that states that there are no trade offers/requests allowed in Zone chat (please correct me if i'm wrong). Spam is the only thing that is forbidden and should be reported. So IF the op is right and only posted a trade offer once, a chat ban is totally unacceptable.
Now the first reason that keeps coming up is "when so many people report you then you must have been doing something wrong" and that is of course why that system is implemented. But is that really accurate? Of course you might annoy someone by spamming or posting whatevery annoys that individual and there is be a tool available to stop that (-> ignore). If you did spam, that person can use "report spam" so that the game can do other gamers a favour by banning you after a certain amount of votes.
So if a few houndred people report someone for legit spam, thats fine. But if a vocal minority of around 25 people think they are the new sheriffs in town and start making up rules like "no trade related posts in zone chat allowed", then this is neither democratic (you can't vote for someone not to be chat-banned) nor the intended use of the tool that was implemented.
A higher threshhold might help with that, or maybe two treshholds (one for zone only and one for complete chat ban).
What really amazes me are how many people post things like "now you better learn from your mistakes", "it should be a REAL punishment" when they declare that a ban from ALL chat is the right way to go. Being banned from zone chat suffices. People that report you have you on ignore anyway, so those will never have to endure your messages anyway. But not being able to use the main communication tool with strangers, the zone chat, IS a major punishment (especially in regard to how few reports are necessary). Group and guild chat are a key factor to the gaming experience, and so is whisper chat. Everyone who reported you has you on ignore anyway, so this is not a loophole for spammers.
Of course I don't like spammers, but the possibility that the system gets abused and that innocent people end up not being able to play the game the way it is meant to be played (communicating with other players) is not worth it.
TL;DR: Vocal minority problem -> amount of reports necessary for chat-ban is too low; If you don't like people using zone chat for trades, ignore them but don't abuse the report spam function (unless they actually spammed their requests); Zone chat ban is more than enough as a punishment for a spammer, who can't spam for 24h (and more and more players will ignore him anyway).
0
jn2002dk1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Some people would rather trade for keys, gold or other items. Point invalidated.
1. Not a bug, yes. Exploitable? Yes.
2. You have clearly never had a group of friends.
3. Once again, tickets are not responded to in a timely manner or at all.
If I needed to play with 20 different people to play this game, and had them available I would absolutely chat ban everyone saying there is no problem.
Ad hominem is not proof of anything except how weak your point is
How am I supposed to believe him? Why would I think that somebody that will blatantly break the forum rules isn't spamming Zone chat?
So if he breaks this useless forum's rules he's probably a liar, and probably deserved what he got. Yours is a funny form of deductive thinking. It's called guessing.
0
cr0pMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
You should only be banned from the channel you were reported in.
There should also be a short expiration on the reports adding up. Make it so all 20 reports have to happen within 2-3 hours of gameplay (a good average total time spent online in one day)
8AM you get overzealous and post 3x the same message, get 10 reports, no ban
10AM you post 2x the same message, get 9 reports, no ban
8PM you post one thing, get reported once, BANNED?
24 hours is way too long for even the one chat zone, make it one hour, and three one hour bans in a three day period is a one day full chat ban (minus guild, party and whispers)
2. Yes, i need to see proof since it's highly unlikely anyone would go to the trouble of getting 20 people to mute the same person for no reason
3. If it actually happened i'm pretty sure a GM could clear it up if you made a ticket
You already got an answer from Preludeii, which i completely agree with. If you talk about "the trouble of getting 20 people" to do something in an MMO you're probably missing something.
I am happy with the system. The pros FAR out weigh the cons.
Look at other F2P games chats that don't use this system. Try using general chat in Age of Wushu.
What pros would those be?
How is banning someone from every chat channel in game fair? So someone spammed zone chat, ban them from zone chat. Why should they also be banned from talking with their guild? There's literally no justification for that.
Ah right, another 200 dollar player seeing nothing wrong with a flawed system.
How is banning someone from every chat channel in game fair? So someone spammed zone chat, ban them from zone chat. Why should they also be banned from talking with their guild? There's literally no justification for that.
Ah right, another 200 dollar player seeing nothing wrong with a flawed system.
I have a good job and support the game, this somehow invalidates my opinions?
It keeps the spam and nonsense to a minimum. If you are getting banned, 99 times out of 100, it is totally your fault. Go look at free to play games that don't employ a similar system. Their chats are unusable. If you got banned, look in the mirror, not at the system.
I have a good job and support the game, this somehow invalidates my opinions?
It keeps the spam and nonsense to a minimum. If you are getting banned, 99 times out of 100, it is totally your fault. Go look at free to play games that don't employ a similar system. Their chats are unusable. If you got banned, look in the mirror, not at the system.
And you ignore the issue entirely. Why ban them from every chat in the game? Where does it specifically say what zone chat should be used for?
Do you know what else keeps spam to a minimum? Rate limiters, trade chats, and the ignore function.
WOW, I actually took the time to read a lot of this thread and I have to tell you, there are some real pompous, holier then thou posters taking place in this discussion. Let me try to lay this out gently for you...
Fact: You get reported by 20 people for saying ANYTHING and you get chat banned.
Fact: You are chat banned for 24hrs from ALL chat.
Probable: It is the same 20 people that are all "buds" reporting people for actions those 20 people find annoying.
Fact: There is NO resource to sell items for gold, which IS a needed currency.
Fact: There is NO resource to "WTB" anything, save for what MAY be available on the AH.
Fact: Most of the time, IF you find what you "WTB" on the AH, there is a 5 day auction set to it with no B/O.
Fact: There is NO "Trade" chat like in MANY other MMO's.
Fact: There are no rules about asking to buy and offering to sell in "Zone" chat, I would also go out on a limb and say that Cryptic envisioned that "Zone" chat would be used for private selling, just like "World" chat is used in MANY other games.
So, to the OP, I get your issue, and I agree with your plight. To the "ban happy" people out there, there is a reason most games do not give this power to us, and it is you. You can say all you want about "keeping the chat clean" and "using it for what it was meant for" but all in all, by reading the tone of some of your posts, The ONLY reason you ban people is because you "can".
I further challenge those of you that would "ban" to provide viable alternatives to the "OP" other then using "zone" to do his bartering? .... Again, selling for GOLD and buying what you NEED/WANT then and not after a 5 day wait?
Let me be 100% clear, I have NO use for spammers, and if someone IS spamming I will also "report for spam", but to report for 1 or 2 posts in a minute trying to sell/buy something is RIDICULOUS!!! Especially knowing that when you "ban" them, you effectively make them stop playing for a day. Argue all you want, but if I am in a guild and I cannot type to my guild or whisper anyone for 24hrs, I am not playing this game for that day.
I KNOW there are those of you that will read this post and feel the need to attack it, and by all means have at it. Also, try to realize how ludicrous banning someone for annoying you is and try to adjust your "holier then thou" ness.
***Edit*** -- I just wanted to add, that I have spoken about 5 times EVER in zone chat and NEVER sold anything or bought anything from it.... So, no I am not trying to defend my actions at all, I just see it as wrong.
And you ignore the issue entirely. Why ban them from every chat in the game? Where does it specifically say what zone chat should be used for?
Once again, if you were banned it is your fault. If I got my license revoked for speeding on the highway, should I complain that it takes away my ability to drive on side roads?
It is a community moderated chat, if you don't like it, don't use it. There are no rules beyond what is found to be socially unacceptable. If 20 people are putting you on ignore, there is a reason.
Ad hominem is not proof of anything except how weak your point is
I fail to see how that even falls into that category. If referring to #2 that was a broad point stating that groups of friends will get together and troll others. I know this to be true, you know this to be true, everyone knows this to be true.
It doesn't even need to be one group of friends, it could be a separate groups of friends doing it and it would add up to 20 people easily.
Once again, if you were banned it is your fault. If I got my license revoked for speeding on the highway, should I complain that it takes away my ability to drive on side roads?
It is a community moderated chat, if you don't like it, don't use it. There are no rules beyond what is found to be socially unacceptable. If 20 people are putting you on ignore, there is a reason.
And what if that reason is that they don't like you, your guild, your name or your face? Is it justified?
This guy won loot instead of you? Gather some people and chat ban. Why not? What prevents this?
Are you saying that because someone chose to post and not spam in zone chat, which as far as I can tell has no restrictions on what content can be in your messages aside from the spam, it is their fault that they possibly get banned?
You are comparing breaking laws, which as you know is illegal.. to something that isn't even frowned upon by PWI.
O_o those are mere assumptions. If you wish to deny the fact that you have 20 ignores from people... that 20 people somehow mysteriously have a personal vendetta against you... you have every right to do so... it still doesn't change the fact your chat got banned. So deal with it.
To be honest, you are "sheltered" then.... I can show you guilds and clans in other games and this one, that have their "fun" purely by "messing" with other people. Not to pick a fight with you, but this is the truth. I have found lately more and more that people give "people" to much credit, and typically when you think something is beyond justification of someone doing it, you will find out they did it anyway. Some humans suck, and get their enjoyment from making others "hurt" in any way possible, even in a MMO.
Ok. You say you can show me groups of people who are using the system to harass players needlessly with the system. Please do.
If 20 people are sharing a problem with you, you are the common issue with 20 people. How are you not seeing that as the problem?
I have yet to see 20 people roving around to harass people with the chat system. I have been playing since day 1.
Maybe it's true, but you clearly haven't played any other MMOs, or your memory has a one week span. In every case, you're choosing to ignore it because you actually didn't see someone doing that. I've never seen someone doing it, so it's not happening and it won't ever happen. That's what your saying, just so you can read it from a different perspective.
I have a close knit group of friends that I've played many games with and this is exactly the type of thing we'd do to a person if we didn't like them.
I am a person who would without a doubt do this and I am arguing that it is a flawed system.
I have a close knit group of friends that I've played many games with and this is exactly the type of thing we'd do to a person if we didn't like them.
I am a person who would without a doubt do this. And I am arguing that it is a flawed system.
And if I felt I was wrongly targeted and banned (which requires 20 ignores) then I would put in a ticket and move on. You say your ticket was dismissed? Submit another, it doesn't take long. It will eventually be investigated and people exploiting the system will be banned. Pretty sweet revenge IMO.
And if I felt I was wrongly targeted and banned (which requires 20 ignores) then I would put in a ticket and move on. You say your ticket was dismissed? Submit another, it doesn't take long. It will eventually be investigated and people exploiting the system will be banned. Pretty sweet revenge IMO.
You are the second person with the Hero of the North title who says ticket replies don't take long. I did not buy the game and clearly people that have get priority over people that have not.
Heres a personal example:
Ticket created 05/14/2013 07:14 AM
Ticket replied to 05/21/2013 04:46 PM
Reply
Unfortunately, due to the incredibly high volume of tickets sent in regarding Neverwinter, we have not been able to provide an answer to each ticket that has come to us individually.
Problem officially marked as solved.
New ticket creation date 05/22/2013 09:39 AM
Ticket replied to TBD
Tickets are simply not a realistic solution to this problem, unless you are a founder, apparently.
And if I felt I was wrongly targeted and banned (which requires 20 ignores) then I would put in a ticket and move on. You say your ticket was dismissed? Submit another, it doesn't take long. It will eventually be investigated and people exploiting the system will be banned. Pretty sweet revenge IMO.
Why does there have to be revenge? Why not have a system that works? What does banning them from party chat and guild chat accomplish other than ruining their enjoyment?
Why does there have to be revenge? Why not have a system that works? What does banning them from party chat and guild chat accomplish other than ruining their enjoyment?
It is a harsh consequence for those chatting in a socially unacceptable manner. It gives them reason not to do so again.
Instead of "Lol, let me go blow up zone real quick and get banned for the lulz" it becomes "I'd like to actually complete some dungeons with the guild today, maybe I should be careful with what I post in zone"
Ok. You say you can show me groups of people who are using the system to harass players needlessly with the system. Please do.
Dude, if you don't know MMOS and how people usually behave in them, at least stop with this "prove me wrong" attitude. I could bring you tons of examples from different games where people did anything they could just to light up their rivalries. Having a built-it form of shutting someone down is just WRONG. But, as usual, you just decide to go blind about this because it didn't happen to you, so it's fair.
You are the second person with the Hero of the North title who says ticket replies don't take long. I did not buy the game and clearly people that have get priority over people that have not.
Heres a personal example:
Ticket created 05/14/2013 07:14 AM
Ticket replied to 05/21/2013 04:46 PM
Reply
Unfortunately, due to the incredibly high volume of tickets sent in regarding Neverwinter, we have not been able to provide an answer to each ticket that has come to us individually.
Problem officially marked as solved.
New ticket creation date 05/22/2013 09:39 AM
Ticket replied to TBD
I said submitting a ticket does not take long, not the response. The response will come though. If you get a canned dismissal, post another ticket. Eventually, someone will look at it.
Dude, if you don't know MMOS and how people usually behave in them, at least stop with this "prove me wrong" attitude. I could bring you tons of examples from different games where people did anything they could just to light up their rivalries. Having a built-it form of shutting someone down is just WRONG. But, as usual, you just decide to go blind about this because it didn't happen to you, so it's fair.
No, his very post said he could show me people abusing the system to chat ban others. I was simply taking him up on the offer. I don't doubt there are some people ignoring others in the hope they get chat banned. But for 20 people to ignore you, chances are it was something you did.
wow... a lot of you guys need to go back to the warcraft forums where trolling and nonsensical arguments belong.
Should the OP have posted a sale message in zone? Why not, as there is no TOS stating what zone chat should be used for. Therefore, if you report anyone for spam that is not truly spamming, you are somewhat of a prick. As the great George Carlin once said "Well, Reverend, did anyone ever tell you there are two <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on the radio?... But hey, reverend, there are two <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on the radio! One of them turns the radio OFF, and the other one
[slaps his head]
CHANGES THE STATION! Imagine that, reverend, you can actually change the station! It's called freedom of choice..."
You guys arguing that trade should not be happening in zone chat have no argument until there is an official trade channel that you automatically join upon entering the game (No, player created "Trade" channel does not count, as you and I both know, sheep only go where authority tells them to)
Now then, is trading in zone annoying? Absolutely, I hate it with a passion. Know what I do? Click to my social tab where zone chat isn't present until I leave the city. Problem solved.
Reporting people for spamming is one thing. Reporting them because you don't like what they're doing and YOU think they shouldn't be doing it, is censorship. Censorship is wrong.
Thank you for your time, the few of you who do not have the brains of gerbils and need a TLDR for everything.
Comments
That would be a good fix. It would allow it to function as intended, automuting gold spammers and the like. Then if the not spammers get kicked out of their guilds for trying to sell items, they'll know it was nobody's fault but their own.
At the moment, the way I see it, there is no clear rule that states that there are no trade offers/requests allowed in Zone chat (please correct me if i'm wrong). Spam is the only thing that is forbidden and should be reported. So IF the op is right and only posted a trade offer once, a chat ban is totally unacceptable.
Now the first reason that keeps coming up is "when so many people report you then you must have been doing something wrong" and that is of course why that system is implemented. But is that really accurate? Of course you might annoy someone by spamming or posting whatevery annoys that individual and there is be a tool available to stop that (-> ignore). If you did spam, that person can use "report spam" so that the game can do other gamers a favour by banning you after a certain amount of votes.
So if a few houndred people report someone for legit spam, thats fine. But if a vocal minority of around 25 people think they are the new sheriffs in town and start making up rules like "no trade related posts in zone chat allowed", then this is neither democratic (you can't vote for someone not to be chat-banned) nor the intended use of the tool that was implemented.
A higher threshhold might help with that, or maybe two treshholds (one for zone only and one for complete chat ban).
What really amazes me are how many people post things like "now you better learn from your mistakes", "it should be a REAL punishment" when they declare that a ban from ALL chat is the right way to go. Being banned from zone chat suffices. People that report you have you on ignore anyway, so those will never have to endure your messages anyway. But not being able to use the main communication tool with strangers, the zone chat, IS a major punishment (especially in regard to how few reports are necessary). Group and guild chat are a key factor to the gaming experience, and so is whisper chat. Everyone who reported you has you on ignore anyway, so this is not a loophole for spammers.
Of course I don't like spammers, but the possibility that the system gets abused and that innocent people end up not being able to play the game the way it is meant to be played (communicating with other players) is not worth it.
TL;DR: Vocal minority problem -> amount of reports necessary for chat-ban is too low; If you don't like people using zone chat for trades, ignore them but don't abuse the report spam function (unless they actually spammed their requests); Zone chat ban is more than enough as a punishment for a spammer, who can't spam for 24h (and more and more players will ignore him anyway).
So if he breaks this useless forum's rules he's probably a liar, and probably deserved what he got. Yours is a funny form of deductive thinking. It's called guessing.
There should also be a short expiration on the reports adding up. Make it so all 20 reports have to happen within 2-3 hours of gameplay (a good average total time spent online in one day)
8AM you get overzealous and post 3x the same message, get 10 reports, no ban
10AM you post 2x the same message, get 9 reports, no ban
8PM you post one thing, get reported once, BANNED?
24 hours is way too long for even the one chat zone, make it one hour, and three one hour bans in a three day period is a one day full chat ban (minus guild, party and whispers)
Look at other F2P games chats that don't use this system. Try using general chat in Age of Wushu.
You already got an answer from Preludeii, which i completely agree with. If you talk about "the trouble of getting 20 people" to do something in an MMO you're probably missing something.
What pros would those be?
How is banning someone from every chat channel in game fair? So someone spammed zone chat, ban them from zone chat. Why should they also be banned from talking with their guild? There's literally no justification for that.
Ah right, another 200 dollar player seeing nothing wrong with a flawed system.
I have a good job and support the game, this somehow invalidates my opinions?
It keeps the spam and nonsense to a minimum. If you are getting banned, 99 times out of 100, it is totally your fault. Go look at free to play games that don't employ a similar system. Their chats are unusable. If you got banned, look in the mirror, not at the system.
And you ignore the issue entirely. Why ban them from every chat in the game? Where does it specifically say what zone chat should be used for?
Do you know what else keeps spam to a minimum? Rate limiters, trade chats, and the ignore function.
+1 Useful and constructive. Thank you.
Once again, if you were banned it is your fault. If I got my license revoked for speeding on the highway, should I complain that it takes away my ability to drive on side roads?
It is a community moderated chat, if you don't like it, don't use it. There are no rules beyond what is found to be socially unacceptable. If 20 people are putting you on ignore, there is a reason.
I fail to see how that even falls into that category. If referring to #2 that was a broad point stating that groups of friends will get together and troll others. I know this to be true, you know this to be true, everyone knows this to be true.
It doesn't even need to be one group of friends, it could be a separate groups of friends doing it and it would add up to 20 people easily.
And what if that reason is that they don't like you, your guild, your name or your face? Is it justified?
This guy won loot instead of you? Gather some people and chat ban. Why not? What prevents this?
Are you saying that because someone chose to post and not spam in zone chat, which as far as I can tell has no restrictions on what content can be in your messages aside from the spam, it is their fault that they possibly get banned?
You are comparing breaking laws, which as you know is illegal.. to something that isn't even frowned upon by PWI.
If 20 people are sharing a problem with you, you are the common issue with 20 people. How are you not seeing that as the problem?
I have yet to see 20 people roving around to harass people with the chat system. I have been playing since day 1.
May i see where you get your statistics from?
No statistics, purely guesswork on my own part. But, do you have any facts to disprove it?
Ok. You say you can show me groups of people who are using the system to harass players needlessly with the system. Please do.
Maybe it's true, but you clearly haven't played any other MMOs, or your memory has a one week span. In every case, you're choosing to ignore it because you actually didn't see someone doing that. I've never seen someone doing it, so it's not happening and it won't ever happen. That's what your saying, just so you can read it from a different perspective.
I am a person who would without a doubt do this and I am arguing that it is a flawed system.
That IS the problem.. that there doesn't need to be a real problem.
And if I felt I was wrongly targeted and banned (which requires 20 ignores) then I would put in a ticket and move on. You say your ticket was dismissed? Submit another, it doesn't take long. It will eventually be investigated and people exploiting the system will be banned. Pretty sweet revenge IMO.
Then this doesn't correlate with my post and you should not have quoted it.
You are the second person with the Hero of the North title who says ticket replies don't take long. I did not buy the game and clearly people that have get priority over people that have not.
Heres a personal example:
Ticket created 05/14/2013 07:14 AM
Ticket replied to 05/21/2013 04:46 PM
Reply
Unfortunately, due to the incredibly high volume of tickets sent in regarding Neverwinter, we have not been able to provide an answer to each ticket that has come to us individually.
Problem officially marked as solved.
New ticket creation date 05/22/2013 09:39 AM
Ticket replied to TBD
Tickets are simply not a realistic solution to this problem, unless you are a founder, apparently.
Why does there have to be revenge? Why not have a system that works? What does banning them from party chat and guild chat accomplish other than ruining their enjoyment?
It is a harsh consequence for those chatting in a socially unacceptable manner. It gives them reason not to do so again.
Instead of "Lol, let me go blow up zone real quick and get banned for the lulz" it becomes "I'd like to actually complete some dungeons with the guild today, maybe I should be careful with what I post in zone"
Dude, if you don't know MMOS and how people usually behave in them, at least stop with this "prove me wrong" attitude. I could bring you tons of examples from different games where people did anything they could just to light up their rivalries. Having a built-it form of shutting someone down is just WRONG. But, as usual, you just decide to go blind about this because it didn't happen to you, so it's fair.
I said submitting a ticket does not take long, not the response. The response will come though. If you get a canned dismissal, post another ticket. Eventually, someone will look at it.
No, his very post said he could show me people abusing the system to chat ban others. I was simply taking him up on the offer. I don't doubt there are some people ignoring others in the hope they get chat banned. But for 20 people to ignore you, chances are it was something you did.
Should the OP have posted a sale message in zone? Why not, as there is no TOS stating what zone chat should be used for. Therefore, if you report anyone for spam that is not truly spamming, you are somewhat of a prick. As the great George Carlin once said "Well, Reverend, did anyone ever tell you there are two <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on the radio?... But hey, reverend, there are two <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on the radio! One of them turns the radio OFF, and the other one
[slaps his head]
CHANGES THE STATION! Imagine that, reverend, you can actually change the station! It's called freedom of choice..."
You guys arguing that trade should not be happening in zone chat have no argument until there is an official trade channel that you automatically join upon entering the game (No, player created "Trade" channel does not count, as you and I both know, sheep only go where authority tells them to)
Now then, is trading in zone annoying? Absolutely, I hate it with a passion. Know what I do? Click to my social tab where zone chat isn't present until I leave the city. Problem solved.
Reporting people for spamming is one thing. Reporting them because you don't like what they're doing and YOU think they shouldn't be doing it, is censorship. Censorship is wrong.
Thank you for your time, the few of you who do not have the brains of gerbils and need a TLDR for everything.