I was purely speculating about it being higher in a single target dps environment; it might not be. People say trash is trash, but doing bosses isn't hard. It's overall dungeon speed what you should be going for. In a lot of boss fights you are hitting more than 3-4 targets anyways (aka more damage than tenebrous, which I don't think would end up being 700 dps in a single target fight).
Another reason why Tenebrous COULD be higher dps than normal enchants single target wise is because you're enchanting 100% power since you can get 22% ArP from gear+cat. Even then, our power gets doubled so it's a lot better than for other classes.
Lastly, in CN I average 60K dps and peak 100k-200k. 700 of that isn't much.
If you're going for a PvE/PvP gear mix then sure, go Tenebrous, you could just invest on two gear sets. You will be lacking equally hard in PvE from going tenebrous than you would lack in PvP by using PvE enchants.
Edit: I don't think you should try to increase your tene dmg by getting more hp, it's not worth the investment (you'll get more dps out of investing for dps stats). Survability will never be an issue tbh.
Yes I realize for PVE purposes stacking recover+armor pen+crit+power will have a large effect on DPS where Tene is only enhanced by HP. So there is obviously a cross over in usefulness on greater tenes versus enchants. I wonder where this is...
If you calculate the effectiveness of say rank 6 or 7 enchants versus greater tenes, that might be the "breakpoint" where rank 7s out DPS... I would bet its somewhere around that number. Rank 7+ > Greater Tene PVE. However I still think Tene is king for PVP purposes.
Yes dungeon clearing is dungeon clearing. I get that completely and why I was torn speccing tene enchants. There are also downtime during fights and while ideally your on mobs 24/7 with knockdowns/backs and once an add dies, if you were going to get SUPER technical, there IS downtime in which tene could be procced and used...
I personally went Tene because when I think "means to an end" I think Dungeons are my means (via gear) to my "end" (PVP). If I can build out a character that is 90%+ as effective as BiS PVE gear and is specced 100% BiS for PVP gear ill do it. Now Maybe I am wrong with the numbers here and its less, but so far I havnt run with any groups where I am below 2nd dps (definitely NOT bragging her at all because I know that means nothing, I just want to give a comparison.) And I have done CN too.
Rokuthy, With greater plague and high armor pen this wont be a BIG difference, however, the necrotic damage is obviously pure damage where power will contribute to premitigated damage. I have not done the numbers, I just know the rough math. Also, many boss fights I am Dpsing the boss solo, so solo dps is what matters there? Trash is well trash?
Also, it seems to me (my opinion) that the Tene set up is a better hybrid of PVE/PVP since it is GOOD at both. I think your set up, Rokuthy, is arguably best in PVE. I have 4 greaters and 2 Tene enchants and put out respectable PVE damage (usually 1-2) and also rock pvp...
The other thing I wonder is that with threat not being an issue, more "tanky" stats might start being favorable... I just picked up ancient set (both pieces) for under 350k for the extra defense... I am also using the blue belt with HP/Crit/ARP for better tene dmg/more tanky stats..
I think you're confusing the purpose of this guide and the way I'm using the word 'hybrid.' It has little to do with gear. The whole point of the guide (and calling it a hybrid build) is for the spec; it has nothing at all to do with gear. The spec allows you to freely PvE and PvP without paying the atrocious respec costs associated with doing both activities. In order to optimize either aspect, then the gear is going to be different.
So no, Tenebrous isn't better for 'hybrid' anything - they're better for PvP, and less optimal for PvE (according to data - both on the spreadsheet and my own personal data). With that being said, hey, whatever works for you, works. But I'm not exactly sure what you're pushing for me to do here with this flurry of posts. Change my guide or something?
When I tested Tenebrous (using the exact same gear setups I have listed on the guide - Stalwart and Timeless), I wasn't getting 7% of my damage done by Tenebrous. I was getting 3% on average, occasionally 4%. That was with 5 enchants, not 6, but regardless, it wasn't that 7% chunk that you happen to be getting in your gear setup. And even if it was, the vast majority of the content you're clearing in this game is either trash or large clumps of mobs.
That makes Tenebrous even less valuable - even on single target burn fights, the damage difference will be negligible (in either direction), and most fights aren't even single target burns. You're going to be on adds a large portion of the time, and Tenebrous will fall even further behind.
Like I said, if you just want to use one set of gear for everything, then sure, use your Tenebrous enchants - whatever makes you happy. But I disagree with it being optimal for "hybrids," as the gear has nothing to do with calling what I do "hybrid." It's purely the build.
Not trying to get you to change, just looking for your feedback on Tene enchants which you have provided.
I would like to see your optimal set up(recommendation) for PVP purposes then. In your guide you said you value crit more, so what would you propose is the convenient setup for PVP? Before I went Tene, I followed this guide too the tee but could only afford rank 5-6 enchants. I had crit versions of neck/rings in my bags I would swap out for more crit.
If you were going to focus on PVP, what would your set up be?
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elanithMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
My guess....Envy's setup. The two of them have almost exact same setups, only difference is gear. One is better for PVE (Rokuthy) one better for PVP (Envy).
Not trying to get you to change, just looking for your feedback on Tene enchants which you have provided.
I would like to see your optimal set up(recommendation) for PVP purposes then. In your guide you said you value crit more, so what would you propose is the convenient setup for PVP? Before I went Tene, I followed this guide too the tee but could only afford rank 5-6 enchants. I had crit versions of neck/rings in my bags I would swap out for more crit.
If you were going to focus on PVP, what would your set up be?
For PvP I use Timeless with the Scimitar/Timeless Shield, Pyro rings x2, Power/Crit/Whatever neck (doesn't matter which 3rd stat you grab), Power/Crit/Whatever belt and 6x Tenebrous enchants. I personally have ArPen as the 3rd stat on Neck/Belt - which leaves me with about 800 unbuffed crit, 300ish unbuffed ArPen (aren't going to get much better and matters less for PvP - you could drop the ArPen and get defense or recovery if you wanted).
Just to check I have understood , if my Dex says I have -5% resistance ignored that means I only need 17% ArPen to give a total of 22% ?
Stalwart Bulwark is only superior with the 4 set bonus due to the proc of additional power ? And, Does this additional power make a noticeable difference to tanking T2 content or a critical difference (compared to say 4 piece Grand Regent) ?
For PvP I use Timeless with the Scimitar/Timeless Shield, Pyro rings x2, Power/Crit/Whatever neck (doesn't matter which 3rd stat you grab), Power/Crit/Whatever belt and 6x Tenebrous enchants. I personally have ArPen as the 3rd stat on Neck/Belt - which leaves me with about 800 unbuffed crit, 300ish unbuffed ArPen (aren't going to get much better and matters less for PvP - you could drop the ArPen and get defense or recovery if you wanted).
Rokuthy, ArP is INSANE in PvP (works the same as in PvE), specially since you can't get to 2k+ values (you never hit DR).
Yes I realize for PVE purposes stacking recover+armor pen+crit+power will have a large effect on DPS where Tene is only enhanced by HP. So there is obviously a cross over in usefulness on greater tenes versus enchants. I wonder where this is...
If you calculate the effectiveness of say rank 6 or 7 enchants versus greater tenes, that might be the "breakpoint" where rank 7s out DPS... I would bet its somewhere around that number. Rank 7+ > Greater Tene PVE. However I still think Tene is king for PVP purposes.
Yes dungeon clearing is dungeon clearing. I get that completely and why I was torn speccing tene enchants. There are also downtime during fights and while ideally your on mobs 24/7 with knockdowns/backs and once an add dies, if you were going to get SUPER technical, there IS downtime in which tene could be procced and used...
I personally went Tene because when I think "means to an end" I think Dungeons are my means (via gear) to my "end" (PVP). If I can build out a character that is 90%+ as effective as BiS PVE gear and is specced 100% BiS for PVP gear ill do it. Now Maybe I am wrong with the numbers here and its less, but so far I havnt run with any groups where I am below 2nd dps (definitely NOT bragging her at all because I know that means nothing, I just want to give a comparison.) And I have done CN too.
Oh, I forgot to mention, the dps increase from stats is much greater because GFs have a ****ton of damage multipliers.
10% additional At Wills/Encounters, 15% more Cleave, 10% additional Combat Superiority , 15% more Trample of the Fallen, 15% more from Temporary HP, Plaguefires, Tide of Iron, ArP, etc.
The ones who say *MORE* damage multiply everything else (if i'm not mistaken). It just scales massively.
If all these multipliers were "additional" (1 + all multipliers) instead of "more" (Multiplier*Multiplier), GF dps wouldn't be nearly as insane.
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pautistiskMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
How well do you think this setup will hold when the new module takes place?
Isnt this build a little squishy comparing to a more tankisch build with defense/deflection?
Member of Aesir Online Community - Gaming
Guild leader in Dungeons and Dragons: Neverwinter
I got 23,5% ArPen now if i got it right? 17.5% from items/stone and 6% from ability (16 dex) am i right?
21.2% Crit, 19.4% recharge and 32,7% AP Gain. Should i stack some more crit/recovery or still go power? I got 6330 power atm without stalwart stacks and ~12,5k with stacks.
What are the DR for crit/recovery if anyone knows?
Same question for Piercing Occult Belt whicch one is the best that you can get and i think these drop in every dungeon cause i cannot find the exact place to look for them thanks again, the guide is fantastic i'm lv 38 and in fact i'm a good tank and can solo most of the time without a problem i have only green equip lol and a couple of low lv blues like my shirt with 34 def lol XD will try to lv up crafting so i can have better shirt and pants and do not have the money to buy them on the auction house i probably witll save to buy the helmet that seems to be the more difficult part to get
Everything works out in the end . If it hasn't worked out yet, it isn't the end...
Same question for Piercing Occult Belt whicch one is the best that you can get and i think these drop in every dungeon cause i cannot find the exact place to look for them thanks again, the guide is fantastic i'm lv 38 and in fact i'm a good tank and can solo most of the time without a problem i have only green equip lol and a couple of low lv blues like my shirt with 34 def lol XD will try to lv up crafting so i can have better shirt and pants and do not have the money to buy them on the auction house i probably witll save to buy the helmet that seems to be the more difficult part to get
Dunno about the stat but they drop in PvP, just need to be top 1 and be lucky. I got alot of belts now but none of them have been what i need.
#1 You shared with us ur gear and stats, but i saw a different items, like a belt/shield/rings. You said that is a BiS, but Rokuthy said the other stuff (belt/shield/rings - in the guide) the BiS. So which is the _real_ BiS?
#2 You looks good, which dye you use on gear? (and where, primary?)
#3 Again a fashion question. You transmuted your gear? And if yes, for what? And which the "best" weapon for transmute? Couz the scimitar is so ugly, so I need a weapon with a rly good skin.
#1 The "live patch" is coming, any change in the guide? I mean, we didnt go to "turtle tank"? Couz the whole adds packs on us (couz we go more threat, finally) and no more dps tank? Maybe "the game" need a TANK (like other MMOs) not the DPS/Hybrid tank. Its true or nothing will change?
#2 In your guide u said, stalwart and timeless gear both good. But, which is THE BEST? I have same DPS with stalwart and with timeless? The different just -> if Im lazy, buy the timeless, couz I dont need stacking? Or what?
#3 In your PVP gear, where is the 6 tenebrous enchant? 2x rings, 1 necklace - and where is the other 3? Couz you said, u wearing th e timeless set (3 utility slot, 1 defense slot - HP?), timeless shield (defense slot - HP?) scimitar (offense, maybe here one tenebrous?) and the pants / shirts has 1 def (HP?) and 1 offense (tenebrous?) And one piece left, the belt. This is the rare (blue) belt, right? Same what wear to PVE just with tenebrous? And greater tenebrous or "just" tenebrous?
#4 You testing the templar feats. Its work? Couz I have 5 feats points left, and I dont know where put the points. Im done with conqueror feats, 5 points to tactican (- CD on encounter). So I dont know.
Sorry for the questions, but if I do somethig, I want to do perfect.
And my english isnt my motherlanguage, so sorry for the mistakes ^^
Dunno about the stat but they drop in PvP, just need to be top 1 and be lucky. I got alot of belts now but none of them have been what i need.
lol pvpv i die so badly in PVP lol XD i think i suck at it and since i'm lv 38 i do not think i will win a lv 60 belt with the best numbers will continue trying i think is the only way XD hope they are dropped in other way.
then i have another question i've being trying to find what is necesary to create a Gemmed Exquisite shirt and pants but i cannot find those details in any wiki on the web and i do not see the option to create them in the list of task for platesmiting, so i think it is probably a rare one that is not listed or probably a tier 3 or 4 item that you would need purple assets to build does somebody knows like the full guide to get them i will start increasing my my lv in paltesmiting once i have leadership in lv 20 is in lv 10 now, i can probably start now little by little with the stuff that i currently have but in the end i need to keep looking forward to it and invest just in those kind of items since we do not have to much space to spare in our bank/bags
Everything works out in the end . If it hasn't worked out yet, it isn't the end...
For PvP I use Timeless with the Scimitar/Timeless Shield, Pyro rings x2, Power/Crit/Whatever neck (doesn't matter which 3rd stat you grab), Power/Crit/Whatever belt and 6x Tenebrous enchants. I personally have ArPen as the 3rd stat on Neck/Belt - which leaves me with about 800 unbuffed crit, 300ish unbuffed ArPen (aren't going to get much better and matters less for PvP - you could drop the ArPen and get defense or recovery if you wanted).
You really think Timeless is better for PVP? I hit like a truck with stalwarts. Timeless only gives roughly 10% more crit chance and you can actually get better stats from mix n' match pieces if your going timeless. If you compare Timeless versus other pieces,
Piercing valiant greaves: 235 power 135 arp.
Armor of Insanity: 298 power, 298 crit, 298 ArP
IceFall Gaunt: 225 pwr /158 crit / 158 arp
Shadow Wolf Helm: 225 -arp/pwr/crit
Total:
ARP: 816
Pwr: 983
Crit: 681
Compared to Timeless:
Pwr: 1271
Crit: 1350
Arp: 0
Seems like Losing 288 power and 669 crit for 816 arp. 288 power isnt a ton of difference, 669 crit is what roughly 5%? for 816 arp which will be quite a bit of armor pen... So for 5% less crit chance you get whatever flat damage bonus 816 arp has...
Which all this I think is < Stalwarts 7k power bonus... With Stalwarts (as you know) I dont even HAVE to crit to do crit like damage. I will get 10k lunging strikes easily non crit, and when it does, its a 1 shot... ~10k lunging + 2 or three cleaves with 2-3 tene procs = 16k damage easy... Not to mention if I frontline or bull after that = GG.
Also, have you looked at the blue sheild with an offensive slot? Apparently its a quest reward from lvl 55 quest. I havnt seen its stats yet.
#1 You shared with us ur gear and stats, but i saw a different items, like a belt/shield/rings. You said that is a BiS, but Rokuthy said the other stuff (belt/shield/rings - in the guide) the BiS. So which is the _real_ BiS?
#2 You looks good, which dye you use on gear? (and where, primary?)
#3 Again a fashion question. You transmuted your gear? And if yes, for what? And which the "best" weapon for transmute? Couz the scimitar is so ugly, so I need a weapon with a rly good skin.
Sorry for the questions, but if I do somethig, I want to do perfect.
And my english isnt my motherlanguage, so sorry for the mistakes ^^
Thank is advance.
My shield is the only thing that I can't know if BiS until I play next patch. It's the highest dps, but you lose quite a bit of survability. The rest is BiS I did the math a few days ago. I use a Power/Crit belt because I have 22% ArP from gear+cat. Also, ArP/Crit belt is BiS on cat. If you can't get 22% ArP from gear+cat, then power/crit belt isn't BiS on yourself.
I use ebon dyes and all my gear is Stalwart Bulwark, except for the shield/weapon/helm. Shield/Weapon is Steel Bulwark. Helm is Indomitable Warrior (PvP helm).
I got 23,5% ArPen now if i got it right? 17.5% from items/stone and 6% from ability (16 dex) am i right?
21.2% Crit, 19.4% recharge and 32,7% AP Gain. Should i stack some more crit/recovery or still go power? I got 6330 power atm without stalwart stacks and ~12,5k with stacks.
What are the DR for crit/recovery if anyone knows?
No, it's 17.5*1.06 = 18.55. To check how much you ArP you need from gear it's: 22/1.06 = 20.8%
For gear: ArP to 22%, enchant for power with the rest, crit/recovery from gear.
then i have another question i've being trying to find what is necesary to create a Gemmed Exquisite shirt and pants but i cannot find those details in any wiki on the web and i do not see the option to create them in the list of task for platesmiting, so i think it is probably a rare one that is not listed or probably a tier 3 or 4 item that you would need purple assets to build does somebody knows like the full guide to get them i will start increasing my my lv in paltesmiting once i have leadership in lv 20 is in lv 10 now, i can probably start now little by little with the stuff that i currently have but in the end i need to keep looking forward to it and invest just in those kind of items since we do not have to much space to spare in our bank/bags
The Exquisite Shirt and pants are rare tasks in platesmithing at level 20. you can find the requirements here near the bottom of the page. The Gemmed version is the Tier 3 result of the task
You really think Timeless is better for PVP? I hit like a truck with stalwarts. Timeless only gives roughly 10% more crit chance and you can actually get better stats from mix n' match pieces if your going timeless. If you compare Timeless versus other pieces,
Piercing valiant greaves: 235 power 135 arp.
Armor of Insanity: 298 power, 298 crit, 298 ArP
IceFall Gaunt: 225 pwr /158 crit / 158 arp
Shadow Wolf Helm: 225 -arp/pwr/crit
Total:
ARP: 816
Pwr: 983
Crit: 681
Compared to Timeless:
Pwr: 1271
Crit: 1350
Arp: 0
Seems like Losing 288 power and 669 crit for 816 arp. 288 power isnt a ton of difference, 669 crit is what roughly 5%? for 816 arp which will be quite a bit of armor pen... So for 5% less crit chance you get whatever flat damage bonus 816 arp has...
Which all this I think is < Stalwarts 7k power bonus... With Stalwarts (as you know) I dont even HAVE to crit to do crit like damage. I will get 10k lunging strikes easily non crit, and when it does, its a 1 shot... ~10k lunging + 2 or three cleaves with 2-3 tene procs = 16k damage easy... Not to mention if I frontline or bull after that = GG.
Also, have you looked at the blue sheild with an offensive slot? Apparently its a quest reward from lvl 55 quest. I havnt seen its stats yet.
You really think Timeless is better for PVP? I hit like a truck with stalwarts.
I still don't see the allure of Stalwarts - it's not like you have that full bonus up all the time. In PvE, sure, but PvP I'm not standing around letting the other team pound on me 5 times in a row. Getting hit = lower hp = lower damage from Tenebrous. Additionally, I'm often the first to attack - lunge, then follow up with frontline, bull rush, etc., meaning I get 0 effect from the set bonus. Maybe they hit me once or twice so I get a little bonus, but then it drops right off again.
Timeless may not be able to get the best offensive stats compared to mixing/matching, but it has the strongest and most rounded stats on it of any 4-piece set: Power, Recovery, Defense, Deflection. I've fought against GFs using Stalwarts and I really see no difference. A crit is going to hurt me way more than some very situational Stalwart damage.
I still don't see the allure of Stalwarts - it's not like you have that full bonus up all the time. In PvE, sure, but PvP I'm not standing around letting the other team pound on me 5 times in a row. Getting hit = lower hp = lower damage from Tenebrous. Additionally, I'm often the first to attack - lunge, then follow up with frontline, bull rush, etc., meaning I get 0 effect from the set bonus. Maybe they hit me once or twice so I get a little bonus, but then it drops right off again.
Timeless may not be able to get the best offensive stats compared to mixing/matching, but it has the strongest and most rounded stats on it of any 4-piece set: Power, Recovery, Defense, Deflection. I've fought against GFs using Stalwarts and I really see no difference. A crit is going to hurt me way more than some very situational Stalwart damage.
Also timeless vs stalwarts I get what you are saying about the build up. Although there IS a flipside... Say you lunging strike someone and hit them 2x for full timeless build up (10% more crit). What happens when a CW CCs you and then a rgoeu dazes you, you just lost your build up and are more than likely now not going to come out on top.
With Stalwarts (from what I have found) When I am at full HP (no Stal procs) My tene enchants enable me to do massive damage with my CDs, when I get hit I do even more damage meaning
1) if noone is touching me, I melt people with tenes, when I get hit, my tene damage drops slightly but my stalwarts more than makes up the damage meaning I can 1v1 almost anyone. I actually laugh when a CW or anyone thinks they can 1v1 me because of stalwarts... Ill even hold block (ive tested this) and let them hit me to build stalwarts and I STILL have 9k pwer (losing the skill tree guard pwr benefit) and then bull rush, lunge, cleave 2x and they die... If not, a few threatening lunges will finish them off or if I am lucky ill have my daily that = instant GG.
In Pugs I would wager timeless may be better but when you have a group and a decent DC youll live a long time taking hits. Not to mention your passive that heals when low life and soulforged will keep you alive once a minute, you can bet if I am at 20-25% HP I have 5 stacks of stalwarts that lasts 8 seconds (not 6).
Also, Like posted above I would rather mix n match gear and trad 288 power and 669 crit for 816 arp. The small power and 5% crit doesnt make up for 816 arp that requires NO build up. The only way I think the crit could pay off is via greater vorpal but it doesnt work with tene enchants atm and if I was stacking crit severity I would probably drop tene enchants for crit gems to get my crit close to 40%... With 1200+ armor pen and 150%+ crit severity with high crit, youll be 1-2 shotting people easily with knights challenge...
Also timeless vs stalwarts I get what you are saying about the build up. Although there IS a flipside... Say you lunging strike someone and hit them 2x for full timeless build up (10% more crit). What happens when a CW CCs you and then a rgoeu dazes you, you just lost your build up and are more than likely now not going to come out on top.
With Stalwarts (from what I have found) When I am at full HP (no Stal procs) My tene enchants enable me to do massive damage with my CDs, when I get hit I do even more damage meaning
1) if noone is touching me, I melt people with tenes, when I get hit, my tene damage drops slightly but my stalwarts more than makes up the damage meaning I can 1v1 almost anyone. I actually laugh when a CW or anyone thinks they can 1v1 me because of stalwarts... Ill even hold block (ive tested this) and let them hit me to build stalwarts and I STILL have 9k pwer (losing the skill tree guard pwr benefit) and then bull rush, lunge, cleave 2x and they die... If not, a few threatening lunges will finish them off or if I am lucky ill have my daily that = instant GG.
In Pugs I would wager timeless may be better but when you have a group and a decent DC youll live a long time taking hits. Not to mention your passive that heals when low life and soulforged will keep you alive once a minute, you can bet if I am at 20-25% HP I have 5 stacks of stalwarts that lasts 8 seconds (not 6).
Also, Like posted above I would rather mix n match gear and trad 288 power and 669 crit for 816 arp. The small power and 5% crit doesnt make up for 816 arp that requires NO build up. The only way I think the crit could pay off is via greater vorpal but it doesnt work with tene enchants atm and if I was stacking crit severity I would probably drop tene enchants for crit gems to get my crit close to 40%... With 1200+ armor pen and 150%+ crit severity with high crit, youll be 1-2 shotting people easily with knights challenge...
If a CW CCs you and then a rogue dazes you, I think there's a good chance you're dead regardless of what set you're using (against good players) I prefer to strike first and not let them have a chance to kill me. Stalwart requires you to be hit many times, increasing your risk of death, and more often than not you won't have the full bonus when attacking. Timeless bonus is also much easier to maintain and max out and synergies well with the GF playstyle (3 encounter combos, full tenebrous procs). Against many of the good players I've played against, your guard will be gone in about 2-3 hits.
I think all this goes to show that it really doesn't matter what armor set you're using so as long as you have tene enchantments. The impact in PvP between the sets are so small because there's only so much customization you can do without being able to use your offensive slots for anything but tenes. Both have advantages and disadvantages and fit difference play styles.
If a CW CCs you and then a rogue dazes you, I think there's a good chance you're dead regardless of what set you're using (against good players) I prefer to strike first and not let them have a chance to kill me. Stalwart requires you to be hit many times, increasing your risk of death, and more often than not you won't have the full bonus when attacking. Timeless bonus is also much easier to maintain and max out and synergies well with the GF playstyle (3 encounter combos, full tenebrous procs). Against many of the good players I've played against, your guard will be gone in about 2-3 hits.
I think all this goes to show that it really doesn't matter what armor set you're using so as long as you have tene enchantments. The impact in PvP between the sets are so small because there's only so much customization you can do without being able to use your offensive slots for anything but tenes. Both have advantages and disadvantages and fit difference play styles.
I dont know man, honestly Ive had those situations often when I have just a few seconds to strike because of CC and really have felt that Stalwarts enabled me to kill. Plus, like I said, with a DC you can usually stand the duration of CC, not to mention even just a CWs choke combined with them running away and the glitchy-ness of our rushes I find myself often not attacking within 6 seconds and then have maybe 3-4 seconds to do as much burst as possible.
I know I will also get flamed for saying this, but I found (and I could be wrong here) that using ancients set for more defensive stats has helped that survivability quite a bit. I lost a little DPS stats but gained quite a bit of "tankiness" to last longer which leads to more tene procs which leads to stalwarts bonuses being more viable.
Any decent premade will consist of a DC throwing down sheild meaning you wont 1-2 shot them, itll be a longer duration right and chances are youll get stal benefit.
In the end I think its playstyle and preference although I personally believe the scale tips towards stalwarts. The pure damage output I get, like I said, I can get hits that are like normal crits and when I DO crit (which is admittedly less than timeless) it really is a 1 shot for 30k+
Plus, I would like to add, with our premade setup, I am usually one of the first to rush in/lead (being a GF) which means I get targeted a ton and if I come out alive, I am a beast in damage... But you are right that is an "if" but I would wager that timeless wouldnt help that much in those situations.. Could be wrong though! Remember timeless set only gives 10% more crit.
I dont know man, honestly Ive had those situations often when I have just a few seconds to strike because of CC and really have felt that Stalwarts enabled me to kill. Plus, like I said, with a DC you can usually stand the duration of CC, not to mention even just a CWs choke combined with them running away and the glitchy-ness of our rushes I find myself often not attacking within 6 seconds and then have maybe 3-4 seconds to do as much burst as possible.
I know I will also get flamed for saying this, but I found (and I could be wrong here) that using ancients set for more defensive stats has helped that survivability quite a bit. I lost a little DPS stats but gained quite a bit of "tankiness" to last longer which leads to more tene procs which leads to stalwarts bonuses being more viable.
Any decent premade will consist of a DC throwing down sheild meaning you wont 1-2 shot them, itll be a longer duration right and chances are youll get stal benefit.
In the end I think its playstyle and preference although I personally believe the scale tips towards stalwarts. The pure damage output I get, like I said, I can get hits that are like normal crits and when I DO crit (which is admittedly less than timeless) it really is a 1 shot for 30k+
Plus, I would like to add, with our premade setup, I am usually one of the first to rush in/lead (being a GF) which means I get targeted a ton and if I come out alive, I am a beast in damage... But you are right that is an "if" but I would wager that timeless wouldnt help that much in those situations.. Could be wrong though! Remember timeless set only gives 10% more crit.
I use the ancient set as well - I prefer to have a more balanced build than just go all DPS.
So about the Stalwart set... even if you somehow got full stacks, how much more damage is that going to add? about 400-500 per hit? I don't see how that really makes a difference when a) you won't often (if at all) get full stacks, b) the stacks fall off fast, c) it means you've taken at least 5 hits so there's a good chance your hp is lower and thus tenes proc lower damage. Realistically, you're not going to have more than 3 stacks on average and often times 0 stacks when starting combat if using lunge to its fullest benefit. The odds of getting full tene procs from max hp and getting a full Stalwart bonus are very low.
Timeless is about 10% more crit, but 1 crit could mean an extra 5k damage. So you'd need ~10 hits of a full stacked Stalwart to equal the extra big crit from Timeless. Basically about the same, except the Timeless set is easier to set up and use without putting yourself in danger. Now of course you're not always going to crit on your big hits and you might crit on a Cleave for an extra ~1k damage, but Stalwart will usually not have many stacks active and so the bonus to damage will normally be a lot lower.
Timeless has ~1200 recovery vs ~500 that Stalwart has, which in theory gives a slight DPS increase. Lastly, Timeless gives ~1200 power without the need of a set bonus while Stalwart has 0 power. And this power can be doubled from Reckless Attacker while the Stalwart bonus isn't, so Timeless power = ~2500 which is almost like having 2 stacks with Stalwart.
So while it appears both sets have their advantages, in no way do I see Stalwart having some huge damage bonus that destroys the enemy while other sets don't. Try Timeless and you'll noticed little to no difference in your effectiveness or damage compared to Stalwart.
Why do people set arbitrary values for what Stalwart should increase dmg. I'm sick of reading this bull****, rough pseudo-math people do (the worst offenders being the ones who do rough math and then make bull**** rationalizations that power does X for your dps and crit does Y for your dps, when in reality they don't know ****). Stalwart increases dmg and that's all that you need to know. The increase is neither small nor insane, but it's decent. Differences in damages get compounded by mulitpliers (which Plaguefires - an enchant that stacks - are, and multipliers which GFs have an insane amount of). Lastly, why do you people care about being tanky? This is an MMORPG. You should only be as tanky as you need to be to not die (unless you're a dedicated tank - role which doesn't exist in this game).
Call me when Timeless gives you the equivalent of: 22% ArP, 14750 power, 1500 crit, 1100 recovery with rank 7 enchants.
Why do people set arbitrary values for what Stalwart should increase dmg. I'm sick of reading this bull****, rough pseudo-math people do. Stalwart increases dmg and that's all that you need to know. The increase is neither small nor insane, but it's decent. Differences in damages get compounded by mulitpliers (which Plaguefires - an enchant that stacks - are, and multipliers which GFs have an insane amount of). Lastly, why do you people care about being tanky? This is an MMORPG. You should only be as tanky as you need to be to not die (unless you're a dedicated tank - role which doesn't exist in this game).
Call me when Timeless gives you the equivalent of: 22% ArP, 14750 power, 1500 crit, 1100 recovery with rank 7 enchants.
Why not talk about it? It's called theorycrafting. What else are we going to do? Endless PvE/PvP? If you're sick of reading about it then don't read it, simple as that.
Yes we know damage gets compounded by mulitpliers, but it works for all damage including crits. It makes it hard to pin down exact values so we estimate.
Who's worried about being tanky? Adding some extra damage resistance while not focusing on it doesn't make one tanky, it makes one more balanced. More damage resistance = less damage = higher tene procs.
Not sure what you're referring to with the "Call me when Timeless gives you the equivalent of: 22% ArP, 14750 power, 1500 crit, 1100 recovery with rank 7 enchants." Is that a dream set of armor you're waiting for?
I use the ancient set as well - I prefer to have a more balanced build than just go all DPS.
So about the Stalwart set... even if you somehow got full stacks, how much more damage is that going to add? about 400-500 per hit? I don't see how that really makes a difference when a) you won't often (if at all) get full stacks, b) the stacks fall off fast, c) it means you've taken at least 5 hits so there's a good chance your hp is lower and thus tenes proc lower damage. Realistically, you're not going to have more than 3 stacks on average and often times 0 stacks when starting combat if using lunge to its fullest benefit. The odds of getting full tene procs from max hp and getting a full Stalwart bonus are very low.
Timeless is about 10% more crit, but 1 crit could mean an extra 5k damage. So you'd need ~10 hits of a full stacked Stalwart to equal the extra big crit from Timeless. Basically about the same, except the Timeless set is easier to set up and use without putting yourself in danger. Now of course you're not always going to crit on your big hits and you might crit on a Cleave for an extra ~1k damage, but Stalwart will usually not have many stacks active and so the bonus to damage will normally be a lot lower.
Timeless has ~1200 recovery vs ~500 that Stalwart has, which in theory gives a slight DPS increase. Lastly, Timeless gives ~1200 power without the need of a set bonus while Stalwart has 0 power. And this power can be doubled from Reckless Attacker while the Stalwart bonus isn't, so Timeless power = ~2500 which is almost like having 2 stacks with Stalwart.
So while it appears both sets have their advantages, in no way do I see Stalwart having some huge damage bonus that destroys the enemy while other sets don't. Try Timeless and you'll noticed little to no difference in your effectiveness or damage compared to Stalwart.
You tell me how much 7000 power adds to your damage... I think itll add maybe roughly your 500 damage per cleave, but think of the damage added to lunging strike.. its HUGE. I would suggest atleast a pure 25% damage increase if not more... I have gotten non knights challenge non crit lungings in five digits...
So I would suggest that your 10% more crit giving what you said was 5k damage? well right there I can make up for that crit in 1-2 swings plus a lunging pretty easily, not to mention IF i crit, its GG.. 7000 power does much more than you think it does for damage, especially on encounters.
Stalwarts also gives +2825 defense and +1148 delfection (and some regen too) While Timeless gives +1911 Defense and +1020 Deflection... So Timeless doesnt come close to defensive stats either... Recovery is decent but not big for PVP. So in reality your looking at what (7000-2500) = 4500 power or 1350 crit? 4500 power is still a TON of power additional to timeless the 1000k+ defense is VERY nice too.
Again I think it comes down to play style, I think Stalwarts will do better in MORE situations. With Stalwarts even with NO armor buff I can still beast people with greater tenes and knights challenge very easily but I will say, timeless will win in this scenario. When you are TAKING damage however, Stalwarts will beat out timeless pretty easily. Not only is it more tanky but its more flat damage AND the buff will be up the entire time versus with timeless its a shorter duration AND you have to hit them to apply it... Which you could lose under many conditions.
Personally I would rather knight challenge cheese people when stalwarts is not up and then stalwarts cheese them when I have the buff versus what... cheesing harder with timeless? I dont need a buff when I am not taking damage I do when I am taking damage... My theory anyways...
"You should only be as tanky as you need to be to not die " I agree 100% here for PVE purposes but for PVP its a different story. Plus in PVE Stalwarts is more tanky and more dps I dont think that one even can be debated...
But for PVP you DO want to be tanky since it effects tene procs AND ability to flat out win...
Also syno I think the mentality difference is that your visualizing me running around LOOKING to get hit... That is not the case, I play the way I normally do except that I do have a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of survivability and am not scared when a rogue runs towards me a or CW chokes me.. But it IS during those moments that I smirk, take a deep breath, and then melt their face off... I dont need to worry about hitting them first to win.
Why not talk about it? It's called theorycrafting. What else are we going to do? Endless PvE/PvP? If you're sick of reading about it then don't read it, simple as that.
Yes we know damage gets compounded by mulitpliers, but it works for all damage including crits. It makes it hard to pin down exact values so we estimate.
Who's worried about being tanky? Adding some extra damage resistance while not focusing on it doesn't make one tanky, it makes one more balanced. More damage resistance = less damage = higher tene procs.
Not sure what you're referring to with the "Call me when Timeless gives you the equivalent of: 22% ArP, 14750 power, 1500 crit, 1100 recovery with rank 7 enchants." Is that a dream set of armor you're waiting for?
He is referring to Stalwarts set with Rank 7 enchants instead of Tene enchants.. You can get your power over 14k easily AND have great ARP/crit and recovery too...
Why not talk about it? It's called theorycrafting. What else are we going to do? Endless PvE/PvP? If you're sick of reading about it then don't read it, simple as that.
Yes we know damage gets compounded by mulitpliers, but it works for all damage including crits. It makes it hard to pin down exact values so we estimate.
Who's worried about being tanky? Adding some extra damage resistance while not focusing on it doesn't make one tanky, it makes one more balanced. More damage resistance = less damage = higher tene procs.
Not sure what you're referring to with the "Call me when Timeless gives you the equivalent of: 22% ArP, 14750 power, 1500 crit, 1100 recovery with rank 7 enchants." Is that a dream set of armor you're waiting for?
What a lot of people isn't called theorycrafting. You're coming to conclusions with false premises. That's the capital sin of theorycrafting. "Balance" as you define it doesn't exist in PvE. You min/max: get enough def to live, and rest dps. Conversely, if you are tanking, you focus on maximum defense with enough dps to keep aggro.
You didn't understand my point of compounding multipliers. ANY dps increase becomes a pretty substancial increase because of them. Stalwart is an increase in dps, therefore, argueing that the difference isn't as big as you want it to be is pointless. If you know basic algebra then you don't need to "estimate". Specially when like I said, your estimations lead to false premises.
I'm not sick of theorycrafting, I obviously like theorycrafting. I'm sick of people speaking BS with the pretense of theorycrafting.
No, those are my stats. If it wasn't obvious, I was saying there's no way you will get higher dps values than with my set.
question, which other Shield should be good option instead of timeless shield if i cannot afford it? saving to buy the helmet right now that seems to be really expensive
Edit: i think the Valiant warrior shield is the next option available
Everything works out in the end . If it hasn't worked out yet, it isn't the end...
Comments
Yes I realize for PVE purposes stacking recover+armor pen+crit+power will have a large effect on DPS where Tene is only enhanced by HP. So there is obviously a cross over in usefulness on greater tenes versus enchants. I wonder where this is...
If you calculate the effectiveness of say rank 6 or 7 enchants versus greater tenes, that might be the "breakpoint" where rank 7s out DPS... I would bet its somewhere around that number. Rank 7+ > Greater Tene PVE. However I still think Tene is king for PVP purposes.
Yes dungeon clearing is dungeon clearing. I get that completely and why I was torn speccing tene enchants. There are also downtime during fights and while ideally your on mobs 24/7 with knockdowns/backs and once an add dies, if you were going to get SUPER technical, there IS downtime in which tene could be procced and used...
I personally went Tene because when I think "means to an end" I think Dungeons are my means (via gear) to my "end" (PVP). If I can build out a character that is 90%+ as effective as BiS PVE gear and is specced 100% BiS for PVP gear ill do it. Now Maybe I am wrong with the numbers here and its less, but so far I havnt run with any groups where I am below 2nd dps (definitely NOT bragging her at all because I know that means nothing, I just want to give a comparison.) And I have done CN too.
I think you're confusing the purpose of this guide and the way I'm using the word 'hybrid.' It has little to do with gear. The whole point of the guide (and calling it a hybrid build) is for the spec; it has nothing at all to do with gear. The spec allows you to freely PvE and PvP without paying the atrocious respec costs associated with doing both activities. In order to optimize either aspect, then the gear is going to be different.
So no, Tenebrous isn't better for 'hybrid' anything - they're better for PvP, and less optimal for PvE (according to data - both on the spreadsheet and my own personal data). With that being said, hey, whatever works for you, works. But I'm not exactly sure what you're pushing for me to do here with this flurry of posts. Change my guide or something?
When I tested Tenebrous (using the exact same gear setups I have listed on the guide - Stalwart and Timeless), I wasn't getting 7% of my damage done by Tenebrous. I was getting 3% on average, occasionally 4%. That was with 5 enchants, not 6, but regardless, it wasn't that 7% chunk that you happen to be getting in your gear setup. And even if it was, the vast majority of the content you're clearing in this game is either trash or large clumps of mobs.
That makes Tenebrous even less valuable - even on single target burn fights, the damage difference will be negligible (in either direction), and most fights aren't even single target burns. You're going to be on adds a large portion of the time, and Tenebrous will fall even further behind.
Like I said, if you just want to use one set of gear for everything, then sure, use your Tenebrous enchants - whatever makes you happy. But I disagree with it being optimal for "hybrids," as the gear has nothing to do with calling what I do "hybrid." It's purely the build.
I would like to see your optimal set up(recommendation) for PVP purposes then. In your guide you said you value crit more, so what would you propose is the convenient setup for PVP? Before I went Tene, I followed this guide too the tee but could only afford rank 5-6 enchants. I had crit versions of neck/rings in my bags I would swap out for more crit.
If you were going to focus on PVP, what would your set up be?
Envy's PVP Thread
For PvP I use Timeless with the Scimitar/Timeless Shield, Pyro rings x2, Power/Crit/Whatever neck (doesn't matter which 3rd stat you grab), Power/Crit/Whatever belt and 6x Tenebrous enchants. I personally have ArPen as the 3rd stat on Neck/Belt - which leaves me with about 800 unbuffed crit, 300ish unbuffed ArPen (aren't going to get much better and matters less for PvP - you could drop the ArPen and get defense or recovery if you wanted).
Stalwart Bulwark is only superior with the 4 set bonus due to the proc of additional power ? And, Does this additional power make a noticeable difference to tanking T2 content or a critical difference (compared to say 4 piece Grand Regent) ?
Rokuthy, ArP is INSANE in PvP (works the same as in PvE), specially since you can't get to 2k+ values (you never hit DR).
Oh, I forgot to mention, the dps increase from stats is much greater because GFs have a ****ton of damage multipliers.
10% additional At Wills/Encounters, 15% more Cleave, 10% additional Combat Superiority , 15% more Trample of the Fallen, 15% more from Temporary HP, Plaguefires, Tide of Iron, ArP, etc.
The ones who say *MORE* damage multiply everything else (if i'm not mistaken). It just scales massively.
If all these multipliers were "additional" (1 + all multipliers) instead of "more" (Multiplier*Multiplier), GF dps wouldn't be nearly as insane.
Isnt this build a little squishy comparing to a more tankisch build with defense/deflection?
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21.2% Crit, 19.4% recharge and 32,7% AP Gain. Should i stack some more crit/recovery or still go power? I got 6330 power atm without stalwart stacks and ~12,5k with stacks.
What are the DR for crit/recovery if anyone knows?
Same question for Piercing Occult Belt whicch one is the best that you can get and i think these drop in every dungeon cause i cannot find the exact place to look for them
Dunno about the stat but they drop in PvP, just need to be top 1 and be lucky. I got alot of belts now but none of them have been what i need.
@sanctumlol:
#1 You shared with us ur gear and stats, but i saw a different items, like a belt/shield/rings. You said that is a BiS, but Rokuthy said the other stuff (belt/shield/rings - in the guide) the BiS. So which is the _real_ BiS?
#2 You looks good, which dye you use on gear? (and where, primary?)
#3 Again a fashion question. You transmuted your gear? And if yes, for what? And which the "best" weapon for transmute? Couz the scimitar is so ugly, so I need a weapon with a rly good skin.
@Rokuthy:
#1 The "live patch" is coming, any change in the guide? I mean, we didnt go to "turtle tank"? Couz the whole adds packs on us (couz we go more threat, finally) and no more dps tank? Maybe "the game" need a TANK (like other MMOs) not the DPS/Hybrid tank. Its true or nothing will change?
#2 In your guide u said, stalwart and timeless gear both good. But, which is THE BEST? I have same DPS with stalwart and with timeless? The different just -> if Im lazy, buy the timeless, couz I dont need stacking? Or what?
#3 In your PVP gear, where is the 6 tenebrous enchant? 2x rings, 1 necklace - and where is the other 3? Couz you said, u wearing th e timeless set (3 utility slot, 1 defense slot - HP?), timeless shield (defense slot - HP?) scimitar (offense, maybe here one tenebrous?) and the pants / shirts has 1 def (HP?) and 1 offense (tenebrous?) And one piece left, the belt. This is the rare (blue) belt, right? Same what wear to PVE just with tenebrous? And greater tenebrous or "just" tenebrous?
#4 You testing the templar feats. Its work? Couz I have 5 feats points left, and I dont know where put the points. Im done with conqueror feats, 5 points to tactican (- CD on encounter). So I dont know.
Sorry for the questions, but if I do somethig, I want to do perfect.
And my english isnt my motherlanguage, so sorry for the mistakes ^^
Thank is advance.
lol pvpv i die so badly in PVP lol XD i think i suck at it and since i'm lv 38 i do not think i will win a lv 60 belt with the best numbers
then i have another question i've being trying to find what is necesary to create a Gemmed Exquisite shirt and pants but i cannot find those details in any wiki on the web and i do not see the option to create them in the list of task for platesmiting, so i think it is probably a rare one that is not listed or probably a tier 3 or 4 item that you would need purple assets to build does somebody knows like the full guide to get them i will start increasing my my lv in paltesmiting once i have leadership in lv 20 is in lv 10 now, i can probably start now little by little with the stuff that i currently have but in the end i need to keep looking forward to it and invest just in those kind of items since we do not have to much space to spare in our bank/bags
You really think Timeless is better for PVP? I hit like a truck with stalwarts. Timeless only gives roughly 10% more crit chance and you can actually get better stats from mix n' match pieces if your going timeless. If you compare Timeless versus other pieces,
Piercing valiant greaves: 235 power 135 arp.
Armor of Insanity: 298 power, 298 crit, 298 ArP
IceFall Gaunt: 225 pwr /158 crit / 158 arp
Shadow Wolf Helm: 225 -arp/pwr/crit
Total:
ARP: 816
Pwr: 983
Crit: 681
Compared to Timeless:
Pwr: 1271
Crit: 1350
Arp: 0
Seems like Losing 288 power and 669 crit for 816 arp. 288 power isnt a ton of difference, 669 crit is what roughly 5%? for 816 arp which will be quite a bit of armor pen... So for 5% less crit chance you get whatever flat damage bonus 816 arp has...
Which all this I think is < Stalwarts 7k power bonus... With Stalwarts (as you know) I dont even HAVE to crit to do crit like damage. I will get 10k lunging strikes easily non crit, and when it does, its a 1 shot... ~10k lunging + 2 or three cleaves with 2-3 tene procs = 16k damage easy... Not to mention if I frontline or bull after that = GG.
Also, have you looked at the blue sheild with an offensive slot? Apparently its a quest reward from lvl 55 quest. I havnt seen its stats yet.
My shield is the only thing that I can't know if BiS until I play next patch. It's the highest dps, but you lose quite a bit of survability. The rest is BiS I did the math a few days ago. I use a Power/Crit belt because I have 22% ArP from gear+cat. Also, ArP/Crit belt is BiS on cat. If you can't get 22% ArP from gear+cat, then power/crit belt isn't BiS on yourself.
I use ebon dyes and all my gear is Stalwart Bulwark, except for the shield/weapon/helm. Shield/Weapon is Steel Bulwark. Helm is Indomitable Warrior (PvP helm).
No, it's 17.5*1.06 = 18.55. To check how much you ArP you need from gear it's: 22/1.06 = 20.8%
For gear: ArP to 22%, enchant for power with the rest, crit/recovery from gear.
The Exquisite Shirt and pants are rare tasks in platesmithing at level 20. you can find the requirements here near the bottom of the page. The Gemmed version is the Tier 3 result of the task
I still don't see the allure of Stalwarts - it's not like you have that full bonus up all the time. In PvE, sure, but PvP I'm not standing around letting the other team pound on me 5 times in a row. Getting hit = lower hp = lower damage from Tenebrous. Additionally, I'm often the first to attack - lunge, then follow up with frontline, bull rush, etc., meaning I get 0 effect from the set bonus. Maybe they hit me once or twice so I get a little bonus, but then it drops right off again.
Timeless may not be able to get the best offensive stats compared to mixing/matching, but it has the strongest and most rounded stats on it of any 4-piece set: Power, Recovery, Defense, Deflection. I've fought against GFs using Stalwarts and I really see no difference. A crit is going to hurt me way more than some very situational Stalwart damage.
What does this have to do with my post. I did not post anything about the shield only the timeless gear versus random pieces...
Also timeless vs stalwarts I get what you are saying about the build up. Although there IS a flipside... Say you lunging strike someone and hit them 2x for full timeless build up (10% more crit). What happens when a CW CCs you and then a rgoeu dazes you, you just lost your build up and are more than likely now not going to come out on top.
With Stalwarts (from what I have found) When I am at full HP (no Stal procs) My tene enchants enable me to do massive damage with my CDs, when I get hit I do even more damage meaning
1) if noone is touching me, I melt people with tenes, when I get hit, my tene damage drops slightly but my stalwarts more than makes up the damage meaning I can 1v1 almost anyone. I actually laugh when a CW or anyone thinks they can 1v1 me because of stalwarts... Ill even hold block (ive tested this) and let them hit me to build stalwarts and I STILL have 9k pwer (losing the skill tree guard pwr benefit) and then bull rush, lunge, cleave 2x and they die... If not, a few threatening lunges will finish them off or if I am lucky ill have my daily that = instant GG.
In Pugs I would wager timeless may be better but when you have a group and a decent DC youll live a long time taking hits. Not to mention your passive that heals when low life and soulforged will keep you alive once a minute, you can bet if I am at 20-25% HP I have 5 stacks of stalwarts that lasts 8 seconds (not 6).
Also, Like posted above I would rather mix n match gear and trad 288 power and 669 crit for 816 arp. The small power and 5% crit doesnt make up for 816 arp that requires NO build up. The only way I think the crit could pay off is via greater vorpal but it doesnt work with tene enchants atm and if I was stacking crit severity I would probably drop tene enchants for crit gems to get my crit close to 40%... With 1200+ armor pen and 150%+ crit severity with high crit, youll be 1-2 shotting people easily with knights challenge...
Arp: 1514
Pwr: 2889 (doubles from passive)
Crit: 1664
versus timeless:
Arp: 698
Pwr: 3177 (doubles)
Crit: 2333
And you can then decide to do tene enchants or you can have easily 1110 (185*6) points to apply anywhere.
You can get close to DM on ARP and have
2069 arp (~20% more damage)
2219 crit (~16.43 crit%)
5778 pwr
Versus what timeless offers. with the same setup
6352 pwr
2888 crit
1253 arp.
Or you can try and min/max the timeless by balancing out the stats by running.
5778 pwr
2774 crit (all 1110 put here)
1514 arp.
While this would put the DPS slightly under timeless at optimal conditions it requires NO build up to have...
Just some thoughts....
Not to mention the mix n match pieces are 1/100th of the cost of timeless... AND has no build up.
If a CW CCs you and then a rogue dazes you, I think there's a good chance you're dead regardless of what set you're using (against good players)
I think all this goes to show that it really doesn't matter what armor set you're using so as long as you have tene enchantments. The impact in PvP between the sets are so small because there's only so much customization you can do without being able to use your offensive slots for anything but tenes. Both have advantages and disadvantages and fit difference play styles.
I dont know man, honestly Ive had those situations often when I have just a few seconds to strike because of CC and really have felt that Stalwarts enabled me to kill. Plus, like I said, with a DC you can usually stand the duration of CC, not to mention even just a CWs choke combined with them running away and the glitchy-ness of our rushes I find myself often not attacking within 6 seconds and then have maybe 3-4 seconds to do as much burst as possible.
I know I will also get flamed for saying this, but I found (and I could be wrong here) that using ancients set for more defensive stats has helped that survivability quite a bit. I lost a little DPS stats but gained quite a bit of "tankiness" to last longer which leads to more tene procs which leads to stalwarts bonuses being more viable.
Any decent premade will consist of a DC throwing down sheild meaning you wont 1-2 shot them, itll be a longer duration right and chances are youll get stal benefit.
In the end I think its playstyle and preference although I personally believe the scale tips towards stalwarts. The pure damage output I get, like I said, I can get hits that are like normal crits and when I DO crit (which is admittedly less than timeless) it really is a 1 shot for 30k+
Plus, I would like to add, with our premade setup, I am usually one of the first to rush in/lead (being a GF) which means I get targeted a ton and if I come out alive, I am a beast in damage... But you are right that is an "if" but I would wager that timeless wouldnt help that much in those situations.. Could be wrong though! Remember timeless set only gives 10% more crit.
I use the ancient set as well - I prefer to have a more balanced build than just go all DPS.
So about the Stalwart set... even if you somehow got full stacks, how much more damage is that going to add? about 400-500 per hit? I don't see how that really makes a difference when a) you won't often (if at all) get full stacks, b) the stacks fall off fast, c) it means you've taken at least 5 hits so there's a good chance your hp is lower and thus tenes proc lower damage. Realistically, you're not going to have more than 3 stacks on average and often times 0 stacks when starting combat if using lunge to its fullest benefit. The odds of getting full tene procs from max hp and getting a full Stalwart bonus are very low.
Timeless is about 10% more crit, but 1 crit could mean an extra 5k damage. So you'd need ~10 hits of a full stacked Stalwart to equal the extra big crit from Timeless. Basically about the same, except the Timeless set is easier to set up and use without putting yourself in danger. Now of course you're not always going to crit on your big hits and you might crit on a Cleave for an extra ~1k damage, but Stalwart will usually not have many stacks active and so the bonus to damage will normally be a lot lower.
Timeless has ~1200 recovery vs ~500 that Stalwart has, which in theory gives a slight DPS increase. Lastly, Timeless gives ~1200 power without the need of a set bonus while Stalwart has 0 power. And this power can be doubled from Reckless Attacker while the Stalwart bonus isn't, so Timeless power = ~2500 which is almost like having 2 stacks with Stalwart.
So while it appears both sets have their advantages, in no way do I see Stalwart having some huge damage bonus that destroys the enemy while other sets don't. Try Timeless and you'll noticed little to no difference in your effectiveness or damage compared to Stalwart.
Call me when Timeless gives you the equivalent of: 22% ArP, 14750 power, 1500 crit, 1100 recovery with rank 7 enchants.
Why not talk about it? It's called theorycrafting. What else are we going to do? Endless PvE/PvP? If you're sick of reading about it then don't read it, simple as that.
Yes we know damage gets compounded by mulitpliers, but it works for all damage including crits. It makes it hard to pin down exact values so we estimate.
Who's worried about being tanky? Adding some extra damage resistance while not focusing on it doesn't make one tanky, it makes one more balanced. More damage resistance = less damage = higher tene procs.
Not sure what you're referring to with the "Call me when Timeless gives you the equivalent of: 22% ArP, 14750 power, 1500 crit, 1100 recovery with rank 7 enchants." Is that a dream set of armor you're waiting for?
You tell me how much 7000 power adds to your damage... I think itll add maybe roughly your 500 damage per cleave, but think of the damage added to lunging strike.. its HUGE. I would suggest atleast a pure 25% damage increase if not more... I have gotten non knights challenge non crit lungings in five digits...
So I would suggest that your 10% more crit giving what you said was 5k damage? well right there I can make up for that crit in 1-2 swings plus a lunging pretty easily, not to mention IF i crit, its GG.. 7000 power does much more than you think it does for damage, especially on encounters.
Stalwarts also gives +2825 defense and +1148 delfection (and some regen too) While Timeless gives +1911 Defense and +1020 Deflection... So Timeless doesnt come close to defensive stats either... Recovery is decent but not big for PVP. So in reality your looking at what (7000-2500) = 4500 power or 1350 crit? 4500 power is still a TON of power additional to timeless the 1000k+ defense is VERY nice too.
Again I think it comes down to play style, I think Stalwarts will do better in MORE situations. With Stalwarts even with NO armor buff I can still beast people with greater tenes and knights challenge very easily but I will say, timeless will win in this scenario. When you are TAKING damage however, Stalwarts will beat out timeless pretty easily. Not only is it more tanky but its more flat damage AND the buff will be up the entire time versus with timeless its a shorter duration AND you have to hit them to apply it... Which you could lose under many conditions.
Personally I would rather knight challenge cheese people when stalwarts is not up and then stalwarts cheese them when I have the buff versus what... cheesing harder with timeless? I dont need a buff when I am not taking damage I do when I am taking damage... My theory anyways...
"You should only be as tanky as you need to be to not die " I agree 100% here for PVE purposes but for PVP its a different story. Plus in PVE Stalwarts is more tanky and more dps I dont think that one even can be debated...
But for PVP you DO want to be tanky since it effects tene procs AND ability to flat out win...
Also syno I think the mentality difference is that your visualizing me running around LOOKING to get hit... That is not the case, I play the way I normally do except that I do have a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of survivability and am not scared when a rogue runs towards me a or CW chokes me.. But it IS during those moments that I smirk, take a deep breath, and then melt their face off... I dont need to worry about hitting them first to win.
He is referring to Stalwarts set with Rank 7 enchants instead of Tene enchants.. You can get your power over 14k easily AND have great ARP/crit and recovery too...
You didn't understand my point of compounding multipliers. ANY dps increase becomes a pretty substancial increase because of them. Stalwart is an increase in dps, therefore, argueing that the difference isn't as big as you want it to be is pointless. If you know basic algebra then you don't need to "estimate". Specially when like I said, your estimations lead to false premises.
I'm not sick of theorycrafting, I obviously like theorycrafting. I'm sick of people speaking BS with the pretense of theorycrafting.
No, those are my stats. If it wasn't obvious, I was saying there's no way you will get higher dps values than with my set.
Edit: i think the Valiant warrior shield is the next option available