Yes, Tachyonharmonic, Semantics is EXACTLY what I am arguing,
Once again you are completely missing the issue.
GW2 doesn't sell races, like Cryptic does. GW2 doesn't sell classes, like Cryptic does. They don't sell any items that make you more powerful, like Cryptic does. There is no wall between Gold and Gems, like Cryptic has. There is no artificial gate on earning Gems, like Cryptic has.
How much gold or gems can you earn in a day in GW2? As much as you put in effort.
How much ADs can you earn in a day in NW? 24k
In GW2 the only things you buy with Gems are in the Gem-shop. In NW there will be many in-game things that cost you ADs, things that affect your gameplay greatly.
People are suggesting they saw AD costs of a few thousand to a few MILLION ADs. A million ADs is 42 days of grinding to the cap every day.
In GW2 the things that affect your gameplay are all gold and player driven. In NW the things that affect your gameplay will likely be AD and Cryptic driven.
They are designing the game to pressure you into paying cash. Not because you want to, but because you'll have to if you want to excel in the game.
That is the difference between pay2win and free2play.
People are suggesting they saw AD costs of a few thousand to a few MILLION ADs. A million ADs is 42 days of grinding to the cap every day.
They are designing the game to pressure you into paying cash. Not because you want to, but because you'll have to if you want to excel in the game.
That is the difference between pay2win and free2play.
These things don't affect your gameplay, except for cosmetically. The millions of AD stuff quoted was a Level 3 mount. Yes, the same mount you can buy for 20g, just black. Same speed modification. It's purely cosmetic.
Now, if a purely cosmetic mount being something you need to excel in the game? I'm not sure I'd go that far. Even the companions for 96K AD had free counterparts (ghost was actually worse than the mage, hawk was ok but you can get a wolf for free, man at arms is available for free from questing).
Honestly, it really does appear that they are going with "if you want something shiny, pay with AD. If you are practical and want the same thing without the flashy skin, then you can pay gold".
As far as the boost items you mention, having played the game, the "boosts" are available to free players, every hour, by hitting "CTRL-I" next to a campfire, or at a portable altar. The XP boost is available in-game by completing a foundry mission, talking to an NPC, or running an instance during a certain time of day.
The things that may be more in the P2W model may be whatever is in the lock boxes; that remains to be seen. If it's a mount, then it's cosmetic (yes, purely cosmetic) and not P2W. If it's a re-skinned companion, it's not P2W. If it's a mod or runestone, it's not P2W. Why?
Because it's available in the game for free. I can quest for 10 minutes and get it. Heck, I had 4 companions by level 29, and only one was purchased (wanted to see if the ghost was OP or worth the AD - it's not).
These things don't affect your gameplay, except for cosmetically. The millions of AD stuff quoted was a Level 3 mount. Yes, the same mount you can buy for 20g, just black. Same speed modification. It's purely cosmetic.
Now, if a purely cosmetic mount being something you need to excel in the game? I'm not sure I'd go that far. Even the companions for 96K AD had free counterparts (ghost was actually worse than the mage, hawk was ok but you can get a wolf for free, man at arms is available for free from questing).
Honestly, it really does appear that they are going with "if you want something shiny, pay with AD. If you are practical and want the same thing without the flashy skin, then you can pay gold".
As far as the boost items you mention, having played the game, the "boosts" are available to free players, every hour, by hitting "CTRL-I" next to a campfire, or at a portable altar. The XP boost is available in-game by completing a foundry mission, talking to an NPC, or running an instance during a certain time of day.
The things that may be more in the P2W model may be whatever is in the lock boxes; that remains to be seen. If it's a mount, then it's cosmetic (yes, purely cosmetic) and not P2W. If it's a re-skinned companion, it's not P2W. If it's a mod or runestone, it's not P2W. Why?
Because it's available in the game for free. I can quest for 10 minutes and get it. Heck, I had 4 companions by level 29, and only one was purchased (wanted to see if the ghost was OP or worth the AD - it's not).
Well the problem is we have seen very little from actually within NW, so we have to operate based on what little we've heard (that there are AD vendors selling things ingame, whether they're cosmetically only or not we don't know for sure) and the company's past history (Champions and STO).
Considering STO specifically, they sell races and classes (ships) in the c-store, and the best ships require microtransactions. The top level weapons require the AD equivalent.
I realize it's a different team for NW, but are they really going to go with a completely different system than the entire rest of the company?
If anything, their emphasis on having no subscription and no purchase cost suggests they'll need to rely on making players micro transact even more than their other games.
comparing this game to the previous games cryptic ran makes ZERO sense considering those games were never designed as free 2 play from the ground up.
They obviously designed a f2p model when CO and STO went f2p. They're obviously basing NWs f2p model off of their previous games, hence why you have ADs, why it's got a daily cap, why they've got it on a Zen exchange. They still have to answer to the same owners and same investors as the other games. All the evidence is right there.
Please keep discussion to a calm and rational manner with evidence, rather than name-calling and hyperbole.
Well the problem is we have seen very little from actually within NW, so we have to operate based on what little we've heard (that there are AD vendors selling things ingame, whether they're cosmetically only or not we don't know for sure) and the company's past history (Champions and STO).
I personally don't have to operate on what I've heard. I spent a good two hours scouting out the vendors to know exactly what was for sale for AD, gold, tokens. I've purchased many of the items specifically to see if there were advantages, and read the descriptions where I didn't manage to purchase them. So, unless things are hidden from sight, or they drastically change things at launch (which is always possible) as of BWE1, what I'm stating above isn't heresay.
Considering STO specifically, they sell races and classes (ships) in the c-store, and the best ships require microtransactions. The top level weapons require the AD equivalent.
No one knows that except alpha testers, or Cryptic, honestly, since there were no top-tier items for sale in the vendors or AH. However, that being said, the top-tier AD items for sale did not beat the stuff I could get out of instances (at the level 30 range). We'll see if this holds true to end-game.
I realize it's a different team for NW, but are they really going to go with a completely different system than the entire rest of the company?
If anything, their emphasis on having no subscription and no purchase cost suggests they'll need to rely on making players micro transact even more than their other games.
The only reason I'm calling you to task for this is stating some incorrect facts: That your gameplay is hindered in some way game-mechanics wise if you do not use AD. This isn't the case at this time (as of BWE1). If that changes, and I see something which is obviously an advantage over non-paying customers, I'll be the first one calling them to task on it.
for now, they are doing things correctly, and your statements about having an advantage over free customers is baseless - at this time. Everything is cosmetic only - although, there are some awesome cosmetics.
Your posts cast the whole thing in a negative light. If you've been burned in the past, understood. But don't spread disinformation until it's factual (because as of right now, your statements are incorrect).
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
hes been working very hard to try to present this game in a negative light and spout misinformation about it this entire thread
If he has a negative experience with STO/CO, it's perfectly fine. I've voiced my doubts about the game with the Founder's packs (specifically the $200 bundle) and still have concerns about that one.
However, one thing I can't abide is when there are leading false statements and clinging to them when experience and actual looking shows something different. That's just straight up hating to hate, instead of reading and being informed about something. He can hate what it might be three months from now, but that should be clearly stated. But his statements don't hold true with the in-game data as of BWE1.
I'm not defending this game because it's hip, or I'm a fan. Someone brings up a legitimate complaint, even if I don't feel the same way, and I follow Voltaire's quote on the matter:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
The caveat is that it has to be true, not slander.
I personally don't have to operate on what I've heard. I spent a good two hours scouting out the vendors to know exactly what was for sale for AD, gold, tokens. I've purchased many of the items specifically to see if there were advantages, and read the descriptions where I didn't manage to purchase them. So, unless things are hidden from sight, or they drastically change things at launch (which is always possible) as of BWE1, what I'm stating above isn't heresay.
I certainly hope you're not violating the NDA that surely came with the beta tests.
At this point we can only go on your claims, which I have no proof of and may be in violation of the NDA, and what they're currently doing in two other games. You'll forgive me if I take what their company is already doing over a possible NDA violation which doesn't include any specifics.
They claim you'll never have to pay a dime, but that doesn't mean they won't gate content/power behind a pay wall. You don't have to be competitive. If they sell races and classes (like they do already) you don't have to get them, even if they're more powerful than the other classes in the game. (That's how it works in STO).
You may not have to use ADs, just like in STO you don't have to use Dilithium; unless you want to be able to play the new Romulan story missions, or be part of a starbase guild hall, or access the stores where they put all the top-tier loot after taking it out of the dungeon drops.
Do you honestly think they won't sell classes, like they do in CO and STO? Do you think they won't sell races, like they do in STO? Do you think they won't put super powerful items (equipment, classes, etc) in lockboxes to convince us to buy keys, like they already do? Do you think they won't gate an experience behind ADs to convince you to buy with Zen instead of spend months grinding them, like they do in their other games? Where is your evidence? My evidence is that they already do this stuff in two other games.
Also, a couple things. Please present evidence with your arguments. Please don't violate any NDAs you may have agreed to regarding the game. Please refrain from implying/claiming I'm a troll, lying, hating, or any of the other insulting things you are doing. Especially when they're not true.
I certainly hope you're not violating the NDA that surely came with the beta tests.
...
Also, a couple things. Please present evidence with your arguments. Please don't violate any NDAs you may have agreed to regarding the game. Please refrain from implying/claiming I'm a troll, lying, hating, or any of the other insulting things you are doing. Especially when they're not true.
You need to do your homework. This is an example where you never even look at the information presented, but are just rolling out the hate on this game, or anyone telling you that (and I even do so sparingly, because stuff often changes before release) your idea of it is incorrect.
The NDA was lifted for the beta testers. I was live streaming footage to at least four friends. There are at least fifteen threads where beta testers (in general forums) are answering questions by non-beta testers.
As to the rest of your claims:
Way, way too early, and I grant that things can change before release. However, at this time, all of the things you state are incorrect in regards to this game, or are assumption (but being stated as fact). And I have no problem with you likening things to STO or CO. But those mechanics aren't in this game, and while you should caution against previous models, if someone offers you information as it stands now, don't refute it.
As far as evidence, there is streaming video available which demonstrates pretty much everything I said on MMORPG.com. However, since you didn't know that the NDA was lifted for beta, I'm going to stop right there. I'd link you to some, but I'm sure you can google it. But anyone who has played the game knows that my statements, as of BWE1, are correct.
I'm going to add an edit. I never claimed you were a troll. As of BWE1, you are presenting your statements as fact when that is not the case in-game (re: mounts and companions, which I originally addressed with information, which you refuted). And I'm saying you're hating on the game simply because you haven't done the homework necessary (other than playing Cryptic's other games) and in fact, refute information once it is provided.
If a beta tester (no longer under NDA) states something definitive (not "I feel this way about XYZ"), and you simply continue on your rant, that's "hating". If you were open to an idea, and then evaluating off of the data and asked questions, and still came up with "this is a rip-off", I'd be bound to accept your opinion on the matter as your opinion, and respect it.
Instead, you spouted out the same falsehood. And that's coming rather close to troll behavior, but, as I understand how a bad experience can alter one's viewpoint, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not even a staunch defender of the game, for Torm's sake. I've criticized it on a gaming review site (not in the hater-aid way). But I cannot stand misinformation.
its really hard to refrain from saying what youre doing is trolling when you keep stating things that arent true, as if you only said them 3 more times it would somehow become true.
They have already stated they are working on classes for post-launch. It's reasonable to assume they will add races post-launch too. Did they ever state that the post-launch classes would be free? They aren't free in their other games. That evidence suggests they won't be free in NW either.
If you've followed what the Cryptic devs say, they tend to make it pretty clear that they are owned by PW but still answer only to their own company. The same people that put in lockboxes and are selling races/classes/content in STO. The evidence is that they already do it, and they're still the same company. If someone was making them change their tactics, it likely would change all 3 games. Otherwise, if someone's forcing their tactics, it would stand to reason that all 3 games would be the same, as in NW being operated the way their other two games are now. Remember, that Cryptic is the developer, not PWE, or so they keep claiming.
It's funny that lanessar keeps trying to claim that the business model is all out there in evidence, when the devs themselves have even said they're not ready to discuss the extent of their business model. Further proof that the stuff experienced in the beta so far is unreliable, the data such as 2 million ADs for a mount upgrade. That would require some 3 months of grinding. If lanessar is to be believed and it has no difference other than cosmetics, then that is absurd. The only constant report seems to be that the numbers are clearly all over the place, suggesting that any data taken from current beta is pointless. Unless you think that's their business model, to have stuff randomly priced...
That also still doesn't answer the question of what they'll actually sell. If all the cosmetic stuff is in game for ADs, then what are they going to sell for Zen directly? They will not make enough money to survive on character slots and respec tokens alone. It is not reasonable to think that they will put only cosmetic items into lockboxes, as they will be asking us to spend cash for keys on that one too.
The only logical options are selling gameplay affecting things in the c-store, and introducing gates and sinks for ADs to convince you to buy Zen to trade for ADs. This is what they currently do in their other games. It's a given also that they will introduce lockboxes with significant incentives to unlock hundreds of them at $1.25 each. So far, everything official the devs have said would be in line with using the same model as CO and STO.
The sad part is that the both of you continue to take this to personal attacks, insults and straw-man arguments. It is clear you are not ready to have a reasonable discussion.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
Ok, let's see what I can do here,
First and foremost you can't compare STO/CO to NW. They have completely different marketing strategies.
Neverwinter will be Cryptic's first Free to Play MMO while STO and CO are Freemium. What's the difference? STO and CO are premium games with a Free to Play option which really boils down to more 'demo' than anything else. Eventually when you play either of those other two titles you will reach a point where it's not worth it to not subscribe and that's why Neverwinter will be different.
Now while they haven't confirmed any specifics yet the game will be Free to Play and sell cosmetics and convenience only in the cash shop. Of course they could do something like put delays on releases, such as releasing a new class but charging 10 dollars for it but in 2 months it becomes free to play. That would be convenience in my books but again this is all speculation at this point.
The one thing I can confirm is that there are absolutely no weapons or armor for sale in the cash shop and it has always been stated that there won't be. Of course that *could* change but it has always been stated that the store will be cosmetics and convenience only. The big exception is that god awful cash cow known as Lock Boxes which, of course, can give items of power but don't guarantee them.
What I want people to get out of this is that there is no subscription method. Won't be a subscription method...
And because of that STO/CO have completely different marketing plans.
True Free to Play requires more care to be placed in the cash shop. If players can buy their way to victory the game won't last long. If you look at other Free to Play games on the market they show just how powerful a Free to Play marketing strategy can be. The subscription models are being phased out in favor of the Free to Play model which rewards quality game development.
The concept is that you must supply a game for free which players would be willing to spend money on not for extra benefits but because they want to. This sets a high bar for developers but in the end has shown to be beyond effective.
Subscription quality game for free gets a lot of players to play, and don't underestimate the power of cosmetics. People are willing to spend 5-15 bucks to look good, if they weren't League of Legends would have gone bankrupt two years ago.
And as a final side note there is no NDA imposed on beta testers.
Hopefully this clears some things up because there's no point in getting angry or defensive with each other. If you ever have any doubts on somebody's claim ask the mods to chirp in. Sadly it's hard to cite the plethora of references we've stored up in our noggins but we do strive to be accurate and are very knowledgeable on the general news announcements.
Chances are we have at least some information on the topic rather than doubting each other.
Unfortunately your post leaves a lot of questions still unanswered.
Firstly, I doubt the business models are that different because we already know they use the same setup of zen <-> time currency and regular currency as the other games. STO has frequently used the idea that you "never have to pay a dime" as well.
If they are so different, why the arbitrary cap on earning Astral Diamonds?
They have definitely not said everything in the game will be free, only that you don't have to pay a dime. Cryptic is the kind of company (or has been so far) where that doesn't mean there won't be stuff like races/classes for sale, as you well admit. If we take League of Legends as an example, it gets a lot of criticism (and rightly so) that the new characters released (pay to play on release) are always more powerful and therefore purchasers have an advantage. Have the devs said anything to suggest this won't happen in NW?
When you speak of convenience, how do we know that doesn't include things that will let you skip content? Or tokens to unlock content/power such as the Fleet Ship Modules from STO?
You see, there's a bit of nebulous speak going on here.
Supposedly there will be no power affecting items in the cash shop, from which we are (I assume) supposed to infer that there will be no power affecting items for Astral Diamonds, as the two currencies can be freely interchanged. However, this isn't stated specifically. It's not unheard of for Cryptic devs to outright lie to the players, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm skeptical. We already know the AH will run on the ADs, so people are getting power for a cash-related currency. If someone sees a super powered sword on the AH and doesn't have the Diamonds to afford it, he can just buy some Zen and trade it, can't he? That sounds like buying power to me.
Cash -> Zen -> Astral Diamonds -> Rare items on the auction house
That would be why the cap is there, no? So that if you see a nice rare item on the AH, you can still only earn 24k per day, suggesting you buy Zen to get the item.
If I'm completely off the wall here and this would not be true, feel free to correct me. I have to question though, that if you won't be able to buy power, what's the point of being able to sell Zen for ADs? What's the point of the AD daily cap? Why not run the AH on Gold?
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
There's a lot of questions left up in the air because those questions are up in the air at Cryptic as well.
The marketing has not been finalized so most every question you ask is and will remain pure speculation no matter what I post.
As for League of Legends, don't mistake the noise of the few with the facts. Sure many champions are strong when they are first released but often times are tossed asside as underpowered within a week without any game modifications. That's the nature of that game: new champions are strong because players haven't figured out a good strategy against them yet.
The only thing which nobody has ever called LoL was pay to win. I'm not sure which minority of people in the world you're talking to but League of Legends is a true, balanced 100% free to play game.
As lanessar13 stated most things which cost astral diamonds have gold equivilences at a fair rate. The Astral Diamonds are a way to pay for cosmetics through in game vendors and little more. Some vendors do have decent items for sale for Astral Diamonds but while the Nightmare costs 2,000,000 AD these decent items tended to run between 1-2K AD.
Just to use a common reference point Astral Diamonds in Neverwinter at this point seem very much comparable to Influence Points. Most things which cost AD in game cost a small amount unless they are purely cosmetic. The big difference is that you can sell your 'influence points' in order to get actual cash shop credit to buy items such as bags, character slots and such.
This does in a way give real world value to AD but still these effects, at this point in time, seem to be nothing more than a method to save time in grinding for cosmetic benefits.
However, through this all, we should remember the goal in mind for Cryptic is and always will be to make us pay money to play/get what we want.
The answer to most questions come back to that very basic point...
The thing about the auction house though is that although players could, in theory, pay zen to get AD to buy some strong item...
Some other player gets that value too so to me it doesn't matter if a person ground for months to get his AD or spent a thousand dollars to buy a certain item...
In the end that value isn't being lost to the players. While players could fork out cash to spend on the AH, on the other end of the spectrum a player could sell his rare drops in order to fund his own desires instead of spending money. I don't have a problem with that, to me that balances out compared to directly giving the company money to advance faster than everybody else. Those who do pay to advance still give back to the rest of the players.
Right but Cryptic is making Cash off of the player buying Zen to get the item, and then Cryptic absorbs the equivalent amount of cash when the seller of said item spends his ADs, taking them out of the playing pool so there's less ADs to go around.
As you said, the goal in mind for Cryptic is to make us pay money to play/get what we want. That's fine, nobody's saying they shouldn't make money, but that suggests a different mindset to how much they're saying is completely free.
Though I don't think marketing would let them go with the more truthful version of: You never have to pay a dime, but our goal is to make you spend money.
Perhaps we can suggest that LoL heroes aren't overpowered when they launch, but that would be a matter of opinion. What we can look at as fact is the classes (ships) that are sold in the c-store for STO. The ships sold there are almost universally better and indeed the best ships require cash transactions. Lets forget that this is Cryptic's business model for that game for a moment. I think we could all agree that it's in Cryptic's interests financially to convince more people to buy the classes for cash. Thus the most desirable classes, ie 'coolest' or more powerful, would be less likely to be given out freely. The incentive to make the classes in the cash store more powerful/cooler directly falls in line with their financial goal for the game, I would say. What's to stop them from going down the road that STO did? Supposedly integrity, but while I give the NW team the benefit of the doubt, the other parts of the company don't give them a lot of leeway in that area.
At the very least we've established that, similar to Cryptic's other games, yes; a player can spend cash and obtain gameplay affecting (power) items in return.
Ok, I think every one else get's this - I don't know why you don't seem to - I am 'not' missing the issue - I actually agree with a lot of things - my whole 'issue' is that you claimed that GW2 had a 'cosmetic' shop - I wanted to clarify that you are incorrect, you are wrong in that claim.
it is your claim of GW2 being Cosmetic only.
That sir is incorrect, this makes you wrong ON THAT POINT.
In GW2 the things that affect your gameplay are all gold and player driven. In NW the things that affect your gameplay will likely be AD and Cryptic driven.
But with the ability to convert Gem's into gold, right in a tab next to the gem store, are you really attempting to claim that all those things that are for gold and 'affect your gameplay' are not to be considered as being available for Gem's? That would be ridiculous.
(once again - I freely admit, there is no 'time barrier' that is not my point - my point is that the shop in GW2 is not just 'cosmetic'.)
the rest of all that stuff that you keep saying - I'm not in total disagreement with that, I think you have very good valid points, I think they should all be considered, and heard.
I will stop harping on this, because I can see what is going on, psychologically, (and it's totally normal to feel this way,) you hate being told that you are 'wrong' on a point. you keep changing the point that I want to clarify, your claim that GW2 is cosmetic, you keep wanting to make my argument about all those other things. The points you keep redirecting to, we have actually have some similar feelings on.
BUT,
Regarding the point of Guild Wars 2 having a Cosmetic Only shop -
on that one point -
Would you concede that there are things in that shop, available that are not only cosmetic?
Anyway, even if you don't I really don't think I'll 'take the bait' on area in the future, I'll just recognize your inability to recognize that calling GW2 a 'cosmetic' shop wasn't right.
(last stab at it though - just because that one term (semantics yes,) is incorrect, does NOT invalidate all of your other points - (which you keep returning too.) those are good stuff. and hopefully Neverwinter is considering them as they go forward.
ok, the rest of you, I will put the stick I keep whacking this dead horse with down. thx for reading and sry for the distraction.
You said you were arguing semantics, which I don't feel had anything to do with what I was saying or the discussion of the thread.
The issue is that the NW business model is set up so one can pay cash for power items. The devs have made statements to this effect with "the auction house will run on Astral Diamonds" and "you can trade Zen (cash) for Astral Diamonds".
I do not understand this sense of 'entitlement' What on earth makes this guy think that a game company 'owes' him a free game???!!
there are people, getting paid 'Real' Salaries to make and market this game - the 'free' aspect is to attempt to get the game out there to as many people as possible in hopes that many of those that see and play it will be willing to pay for all the work that goes into making it.
How can a guy look at all the work that goes into Star Trek Online, or Neverwinter online, and all the 'free play' that a person 'could get' out of the game with out dropping a dime, and then complain about the point at which the company / drug dealer says;
"ok, you like this stuff? it's fun isn't it! well, It's time to pay the hamsters to keep on powering the wheel you are running on, so it's time for you to pony up some cash."
Grrr - I imagine that the 'things' that he says in his post -are worth looking at, in that the things that he mentions decreased the 'fun' that he was having in game, (at the companies expense of course,) - but it's the 'tone' that he said it in... this 'i'm entitled to free and it better be my way!' tone that sets me on edge.
sigh.
/rant off.
zWolf.
(Edit: - upon reflection, I just wanted to note that I HATE free to play games - I ALWAYS end up spending more on those that I like than on subscription "pay to play" type games. so on a personal note, I would have liked it more if the game was NOT 'free to play' - but, since it IS, if I enjoy playing it, (and I do, very much so,) I feel some what obligated at some point, to kick some of my cash over towards the work that was put into creating such a fun / fine game.)
/end edit.
Completely correct on all counts. This is how I feel as well. But so many people think that game devs are just inhuman bots that write games for us and do not need to be paid or eat to survive.
is it me or did everyone fall and bump thier heads wtf is this 199$ founder pack bs i **** my pants when i saw how much that was u can go buy a console or cheap laptop at that price have fun letting pwi screw u lmao
So . . . instead of posting here, go out and get your console and let other people spend their money as they choose? Or does it bother you that some people might not find the pricing bad at all? 199 bucks - not that expensive, really. Compare that to the hundreds or even thousands of dollars you spend on subscription games at 14.99/month.
Years ago when Everquest was at its prime, I calculated how much I spent on it. Mind you it had no pay add-ons. Just subscription play. I spent more on that game out of my pocket than I have spent buying the entire line of ships and items from the STO store (and I own everything in that store). $199 is pocket change compared to what I spent overall on Everquest. LOL. Yep . . . I'll stick to F2P games. Cheaper.
~shrug~ Enjoy your console I sincerely and seriously do hope you find true enjoyment in whatever game or platform you find to play, but do not make it sound like those of us who choose to pay a few bucks on a game item of our choice are in the wrong for choosing to do so. You are right in your decisions, as we are right in ours.
They are designing the game to pressure you into paying cash. Not because you want to, but because you'll have to if you want to excel in the game.
That is the difference between pay2win and free2play.
This is the same misinformed opinion that people are posting in the STO forums as well, because they cannot get over the fact that some items in the C-store (now properly referred to as Z-store) have some minor stats attached.
Yes, I own everything in STO's store . . . but get this . . . I have one character of each faction who I do NOT give ANYTHING to from the store. My KDF character who has nothing from the store is just as powerful and excels as well as my toons who have store gear. In fact, my KDF guy can and WILL beat ANYONE in a c-store/z-store ship who dares to challenge me.
So . . . no . . . you do NOT need anything from Cryptic game stores in their games to excel. They have designed their stores so that you can get goodies to stand out a bit and be more of an individual in a cosmetic sense, but will ALWAYS be equaled by players who work in game to become such an equal (which is not that much work. Casual players are better than some store-nuts who "depend" on store gear to supposedly "survive").
You want Pay-to-Win? Go check out SWTOR. Now THAT is a pay-to-win model. Play that for a day since they went "F2P" and then come back and say that Cryptic is being unfair. We actually have it lucky over here and I am VERY thankful for their play models. I spend less, still get what I want, still enjoy the game, but when something gets released I do not feel "pressured", as it was put, to buy the item in fear of being "bested" by someone who did buy the item. If I am on a money crunch, I can take my time and enjoy the game while I save up for the item I desire, because those players have no MECHANICAL advantage over me. They just look different is all.
EDIT: To complete my last paragraph because I got "send happy". Oops.
The issue is that the NW business model is set up so one can pay cash for power items. The devs have made statements to this effect with "the auction house will run on Astral Diamonds" and "you can trade Zen (cash) for Astral Diamonds".
You italicized the important word there yourself. Can. But no one must pay cash for power items. Anything available for cash that is also available for AD is by definition a matter of only convenience. Both the cash purchaser and the time-based currency purchaser can get the same item. It's just way easier and faster for the cash purchaser. Convenience only.
Your other arguments regarding the conversion between AD and ZEN (cash) are compelling but flawed. Nobody actually has to spend a single ZEN to create AD. The AD exchange merely gives a way to convert time-based AD to cash-based ZEN and vice-versa. Outside of the allotments from the Founder's packs, AD are a true time-based currency that is only created by players actually playing the game.
In CO/STO the only way to obtain the time-based currencies is to refine them yourself or to buy them with ZEN. It will be far easier in NW to gather AD without spending any ZEN. Refining has a hard cap of 8000 units per character per day in both CO and STO. As of the last beta weekend, each character can refine 24,000 AD in NW. That triples the potential supply of AD. The Auction House using AD instead of gold actually removes some of the pressure to spend cash on ZEN. It essentially allows us to trade AD with other players without using ZEN at all. This, in turn, makes it possible to gather large quantities of AD together without involving ZEN at all.
Something else to think about is that if a player refrains from ever purchasing ZEN directly, but rather only obtains it by exchanging AD, then that player is effectively being payed cash to play the game. (But don't quit your day job.)
You italicized the important word there yourself. Can. But no one must pay cash for power items. Anything available for cash that is also available for AD is by definition a matter of only convenience. Both the cash purchaser and the time-based currency purchaser can get the same item. It's just way easier and faster for the cash purchaser. Convenience only.
Sure it's convenience. A convenient way to pay for power. "Convenience" is often used as a euphemism for pay for power in F2P games.
Paying real money for Zen, then Zen for AD, then AD for items on the AH, is paying for power. Simple as that.
The only question is how powerful the items will be that can be sold on the AH (and bought from vendors for AD) will be. Which is a question of degree of pay for power, not whether there will be pay for power. If the top-end items are bound to character or account, then the pay for power could be sufficiently limited.
Pay for power (and pay to win) is not about "must". It's about "can". Your distinctions on that point are irrelevant.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
I get where you're coming from, but at the other side of the spectrum you could get a extremely good drop and throw it onto the auction house and use those Astral Diamonds as you please. You can purchase AD but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to.
While some people could pay money to purchase AD to spend on the exchange others could use the exchange to generate AD and thereby gaining their own advantage. It's not a one way street.
And to me that's the difference between free to pay and pay to win. I have no problem with players being able to pay to get items from other players since in essence their money isn't lost to the players. Sure the paying players get an edge but the items aren't just being generated or handed out directly from the company.
The AD has to be purchased from another player who wants Zen, and then the item seller gets the AD the person paid for. Sure the company gets paid but so do the other players. That's completely different from games which simply sell powerful items to players where only the one player gets rewarded from the exchange.
mo0shak3Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited February 2013
I think part of the worry about buying zen -> AD -> AH items doesn't take into account the conversion rates. To take an example from GW2 it was possible to buy enough gems then convert it into enough gold to buy a legendary but it wasn't feasible for the majority of players. I literally just logged onto it and the conversion rate for 100gems was 1gold 48 silver. A legendary was going for around 1500+gold, depending on the legendary. If you bought in $10 increments equaling out to 800 gems an increment it would take you 126.689 transactions to buy one of the cheapest legendaries. Multiply those transactions by the $10 cost and that's $1266.89 to buy an end game item. While this example won't fit exactly to Neverwinter's economy it gives you the look that, barring the Zen to AD ratio is COMPLETELY screwed out of whack, people will be having to drop SERIOUS money on this to buy end game level items. And if someone has the disposable income to spend over $1000 on an ingame piece of equipment than, well good for them.
1)Cosmetics like weapon skins, mounts, dyes etc.
2)Boosts that help you progress faster like xp boosts (NO STAT BOOSTS!)
3)Gold because people will find another place to buy it anyways.
4)Companions but they should be attainable through other means aswell.
Things it is not ok to pay for:
1)Raw power in terms of Gear, Buffs etc
2)Any and all advantages in PvP.
Things it might be ok to pay for:
1)Character slots
2)Bag and bank slots
3)Max lvl characters with basic gear (don't release this until at least a month after launch so that every1 has a chance to get to max lvl by then)
3)Gold because people will find another place to buy it anyways.
Things it is not ok to pay for:
1)Raw power in terms of Gear, Buffs etc
This is a very interesting position to take. If gold is okay to pay for than the only way to avoid people paying for gear is to not having player exchange of gear(either through auction house or player-to-player transfer) or have it traded for some other currency than that which you can pay for(or trade for in the case of zen to astral diamonds) in which case what is the point of buying gold in the first place?
This is a very interesting position to take. If gold is okay to pay for than the only way to avoid people paying for gear is to not having player exchange of gear(either through auction house or player-to-player transfer) or have it traded for some other currency than that which you can pay for(or trade for in the case of zen to astral diamonds) in which case what is the point of buying gold in the first place?
items that arent tradeable are still easily purchased, youd pay someone to use your account to earn the gold for you or buy an account that has the gold already. i mentioned previously i think, Bind on Pickup in no way prevents people from buying power.
there is no way to prevent anyone from buying power in the real world. the real world of video games haha however real it is. at the end of the day these are video games and cash is king, if you can pay for any item in life you can have it. maybe you cant buy love haha but you can certainly buy a decked out video game character...
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
items that arent tradeable are still easily purchased, youd pay someone to use your account to earn the gold for you or buy an account that has the gold already. i mentioned previously i think, Bind on Pickup in no way prevents people from buying power.
there is no way to prevent anyone from buying power in the real world. the real world of video games haha however real it is. at the end of the day these are video games and cash is king, if you can pay for any item in life you can have it. maybe you cant buy love haha but you can certainly buy a decked out video game character...
There is a big difference between someone cheating at a game (and breaking ToS) by paying cash for power, and the game being designed to include paying cash for power as a part of its game mechanics.
There is a big difference between someone cheating at a game (and breaking ToS) by paying cash for power, and the game being designed to include paying cash for power as a part of its game mechanics.
a difference to who? what are we talking about right now?
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
a difference to who? what are we talking about right now?
It's a different game design (no pay for power in the game design, but some cheat, vs. pay for power in the game design), and it makes a difference to those playing the game.
I thought we were talking about selling gold in a cash shop being OK because people can buy it from farmers anyway.
I thought you were extending that to justifying selling all gear, because even binding gear wouldn't prevent purchasing from farmers. If you weren't making that point, then my response should've been directed at duckshogun.
It's a different game design (no pay for power in the game design, but some cheat, vs. pay for power in the game design), and it makes a difference to those playing the game.
I thought we were talking about selling gold in a cash shop being OK because people can buy it from farmers anyway.
I thought you were extending that to justifying selling all gear, because even binding gear wouldn't prevent purchasing from farmers. If you weren't making that point, then my response should've been directed at duckshogun.
not too sure how different the game design is, if they are so different itd be tough to say which was more fun if either was anyway. anything you do in a game makes a difference to someone, for instance many people on these forums love the no-mouse controls and many people hate them.
i dont care if farmers sell cash or PW sells cash, it makes no difference to me what other people do with their money. i never expected to come online and suddenly be in a utopian socialist society where when i log into an MMO, i can kill a boss as fast as anyone else because of my skill alone. actually i prefer PW sold the cash because then they make money, and i get to play a fun game for free because of it.
personally, i dont care what they sell or dont sell to people with too much money to spend. if the game is fun for me and my girlfriend thatll be what my focus is. not who is "better" than me at the game and why.
Comments
Once again you are completely missing the issue.
GW2 doesn't sell races, like Cryptic does. GW2 doesn't sell classes, like Cryptic does. They don't sell any items that make you more powerful, like Cryptic does. There is no wall between Gold and Gems, like Cryptic has. There is no artificial gate on earning Gems, like Cryptic has.
How much gold or gems can you earn in a day in GW2? As much as you put in effort.
How much ADs can you earn in a day in NW? 24k
In GW2 the only things you buy with Gems are in the Gem-shop. In NW there will be many in-game things that cost you ADs, things that affect your gameplay greatly.
People are suggesting they saw AD costs of a few thousand to a few MILLION ADs. A million ADs is 42 days of grinding to the cap every day.
In GW2 the things that affect your gameplay are all gold and player driven. In NW the things that affect your gameplay will likely be AD and Cryptic driven.
They are designing the game to pressure you into paying cash. Not because you want to, but because you'll have to if you want to excel in the game.
That is the difference between pay2win and free2play.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
These things don't affect your gameplay, except for cosmetically. The millions of AD stuff quoted was a Level 3 mount. Yes, the same mount you can buy for 20g, just black. Same speed modification. It's purely cosmetic.
Now, if a purely cosmetic mount being something you need to excel in the game? I'm not sure I'd go that far. Even the companions for 96K AD had free counterparts (ghost was actually worse than the mage, hawk was ok but you can get a wolf for free, man at arms is available for free from questing).
Honestly, it really does appear that they are going with "if you want something shiny, pay with AD. If you are practical and want the same thing without the flashy skin, then you can pay gold".
As far as the boost items you mention, having played the game, the "boosts" are available to free players, every hour, by hitting "CTRL-I" next to a campfire, or at a portable altar. The XP boost is available in-game by completing a foundry mission, talking to an NPC, or running an instance during a certain time of day.
The things that may be more in the P2W model may be whatever is in the lock boxes; that remains to be seen. If it's a mount, then it's cosmetic (yes, purely cosmetic) and not P2W. If it's a re-skinned companion, it's not P2W. If it's a mod or runestone, it's not P2W. Why?
Because it's available in the game for free. I can quest for 10 minutes and get it. Heck, I had 4 companions by level 29, and only one was purchased (wanted to see if the ghost was OP or worth the AD - it's not).
Well the problem is we have seen very little from actually within NW, so we have to operate based on what little we've heard (that there are AD vendors selling things ingame, whether they're cosmetically only or not we don't know for sure) and the company's past history (Champions and STO).
Considering STO specifically, they sell races and classes (ships) in the c-store, and the best ships require microtransactions. The top level weapons require the AD equivalent.
I realize it's a different team for NW, but are they really going to go with a completely different system than the entire rest of the company?
If anything, their emphasis on having no subscription and no purchase cost suggests they'll need to rely on making players micro transact even more than their other games.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
comparing this game to the previous games cryptic ran makes ZERO sense considering those games were never designed as free 2 play from the ground up.
They obviously designed a f2p model when CO and STO went f2p. They're obviously basing NWs f2p model off of their previous games, hence why you have ADs, why it's got a daily cap, why they've got it on a Zen exchange. They still have to answer to the same owners and same investors as the other games. All the evidence is right there.
Please keep discussion to a calm and rational manner with evidence, rather than name-calling and hyperbole.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
I personally don't have to operate on what I've heard. I spent a good two hours scouting out the vendors to know exactly what was for sale for AD, gold, tokens. I've purchased many of the items specifically to see if there were advantages, and read the descriptions where I didn't manage to purchase them. So, unless things are hidden from sight, or they drastically change things at launch (which is always possible) as of BWE1, what I'm stating above isn't heresay.
No one knows that except alpha testers, or Cryptic, honestly, since there were no top-tier items for sale in the vendors or AH. However, that being said, the top-tier AD items for sale did not beat the stuff I could get out of instances (at the level 30 range). We'll see if this holds true to end-game.
The only reason I'm calling you to task for this is stating some incorrect facts: That your gameplay is hindered in some way game-mechanics wise if you do not use AD. This isn't the case at this time (as of BWE1). If that changes, and I see something which is obviously an advantage over non-paying customers, I'll be the first one calling them to task on it.
for now, they are doing things correctly, and your statements about having an advantage over free customers is baseless - at this time. Everything is cosmetic only - although, there are some awesome cosmetics.
Your posts cast the whole thing in a negative light. If you've been burned in the past, understood. But don't spread disinformation until it's factual (because as of right now, your statements are incorrect).
If he has a negative experience with STO/CO, it's perfectly fine. I've voiced my doubts about the game with the Founder's packs (specifically the $200 bundle) and still have concerns about that one.
However, one thing I can't abide is when there are leading false statements and clinging to them when experience and actual looking shows something different. That's just straight up hating to hate, instead of reading and being informed about something. He can hate what it might be three months from now, but that should be clearly stated. But his statements don't hold true with the in-game data as of BWE1.
I'm not defending this game because it's hip, or I'm a fan. Someone brings up a legitimate complaint, even if I don't feel the same way, and I follow Voltaire's quote on the matter:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
The caveat is that it has to be true, not slander.
I certainly hope you're not violating the NDA that surely came with the beta tests.
At this point we can only go on your claims, which I have no proof of and may be in violation of the NDA, and what they're currently doing in two other games. You'll forgive me if I take what their company is already doing over a possible NDA violation which doesn't include any specifics.
They claim you'll never have to pay a dime, but that doesn't mean they won't gate content/power behind a pay wall. You don't have to be competitive. If they sell races and classes (like they do already) you don't have to get them, even if they're more powerful than the other classes in the game. (That's how it works in STO).
You may not have to use ADs, just like in STO you don't have to use Dilithium; unless you want to be able to play the new Romulan story missions, or be part of a starbase guild hall, or access the stores where they put all the top-tier loot after taking it out of the dungeon drops.
Do you honestly think they won't sell classes, like they do in CO and STO? Do you think they won't sell races, like they do in STO? Do you think they won't put super powerful items (equipment, classes, etc) in lockboxes to convince us to buy keys, like they already do? Do you think they won't gate an experience behind ADs to convince you to buy with Zen instead of spend months grinding them, like they do in their other games? Where is your evidence? My evidence is that they already do this stuff in two other games.
Also, a couple things. Please present evidence with your arguments. Please don't violate any NDAs you may have agreed to regarding the game. Please refrain from implying/claiming I'm a troll, lying, hating, or any of the other insulting things you are doing. Especially when they're not true.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
You need to do your homework. This is an example where you never even look at the information presented, but are just rolling out the hate on this game, or anyone telling you that (and I even do so sparingly, because stuff often changes before release) your idea of it is incorrect.
The NDA was lifted for the beta testers. I was live streaming footage to at least four friends. There are at least fifteen threads where beta testers (in general forums) are answering questions by non-beta testers.
As to the rest of your claims:
Way, way too early, and I grant that things can change before release. However, at this time, all of the things you state are incorrect in regards to this game, or are assumption (but being stated as fact). And I have no problem with you likening things to STO or CO. But those mechanics aren't in this game, and while you should caution against previous models, if someone offers you information as it stands now, don't refute it.
As far as evidence, there is streaming video available which demonstrates pretty much everything I said on MMORPG.com. However, since you didn't know that the NDA was lifted for beta, I'm going to stop right there. I'd link you to some, but I'm sure you can google it. But anyone who has played the game knows that my statements, as of BWE1, are correct.
I'm going to add an edit. I never claimed you were a troll. As of BWE1, you are presenting your statements as fact when that is not the case in-game (re: mounts and companions, which I originally addressed with information, which you refuted). And I'm saying you're hating on the game simply because you haven't done the homework necessary (other than playing Cryptic's other games) and in fact, refute information once it is provided.
If a beta tester (no longer under NDA) states something definitive (not "I feel this way about XYZ"), and you simply continue on your rant, that's "hating". If you were open to an idea, and then evaluating off of the data and asked questions, and still came up with "this is a rip-off", I'd be bound to accept your opinion on the matter as your opinion, and respect it.
Instead, you spouted out the same falsehood. And that's coming rather close to troll behavior, but, as I understand how a bad experience can alter one's viewpoint, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not even a staunch defender of the game, for Torm's sake. I've criticized it on a gaming review site (not in the hater-aid way). But I cannot stand misinformation.
They have already stated they are working on classes for post-launch. It's reasonable to assume they will add races post-launch too. Did they ever state that the post-launch classes would be free? They aren't free in their other games. That evidence suggests they won't be free in NW either.
If you've followed what the Cryptic devs say, they tend to make it pretty clear that they are owned by PW but still answer only to their own company. The same people that put in lockboxes and are selling races/classes/content in STO. The evidence is that they already do it, and they're still the same company. If someone was making them change their tactics, it likely would change all 3 games. Otherwise, if someone's forcing their tactics, it would stand to reason that all 3 games would be the same, as in NW being operated the way their other two games are now. Remember, that Cryptic is the developer, not PWE, or so they keep claiming.
It's funny that lanessar keeps trying to claim that the business model is all out there in evidence, when the devs themselves have even said they're not ready to discuss the extent of their business model. Further proof that the stuff experienced in the beta so far is unreliable, the data such as 2 million ADs for a mount upgrade. That would require some 3 months of grinding. If lanessar is to be believed and it has no difference other than cosmetics, then that is absurd. The only constant report seems to be that the numbers are clearly all over the place, suggesting that any data taken from current beta is pointless. Unless you think that's their business model, to have stuff randomly priced...
That also still doesn't answer the question of what they'll actually sell. If all the cosmetic stuff is in game for ADs, then what are they going to sell for Zen directly? They will not make enough money to survive on character slots and respec tokens alone. It is not reasonable to think that they will put only cosmetic items into lockboxes, as they will be asking us to spend cash for keys on that one too.
The only logical options are selling gameplay affecting things in the c-store, and introducing gates and sinks for ADs to convince you to buy Zen to trade for ADs. This is what they currently do in their other games. It's a given also that they will introduce lockboxes with significant incentives to unlock hundreds of them at $1.25 each. So far, everything official the devs have said would be in line with using the same model as CO and STO.
The sad part is that the both of you continue to take this to personal attacks, insults and straw-man arguments. It is clear you are not ready to have a reasonable discussion.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
First and foremost you can't compare STO/CO to NW. They have completely different marketing strategies.
Neverwinter will be Cryptic's first Free to Play MMO while STO and CO are Freemium. What's the difference? STO and CO are premium games with a Free to Play option which really boils down to more 'demo' than anything else. Eventually when you play either of those other two titles you will reach a point where it's not worth it to not subscribe and that's why Neverwinter will be different.
Now while they haven't confirmed any specifics yet the game will be Free to Play and sell cosmetics and convenience only in the cash shop. Of course they could do something like put delays on releases, such as releasing a new class but charging 10 dollars for it but in 2 months it becomes free to play. That would be convenience in my books but again this is all speculation at this point.
The one thing I can confirm is that there are absolutely no weapons or armor for sale in the cash shop and it has always been stated that there won't be. Of course that *could* change but it has always been stated that the store will be cosmetics and convenience only. The big exception is that god awful cash cow known as Lock Boxes which, of course, can give items of power but don't guarantee them.
What I want people to get out of this is that there is no subscription method. Won't be a subscription method...
And because of that STO/CO have completely different marketing plans.
True Free to Play requires more care to be placed in the cash shop. If players can buy their way to victory the game won't last long. If you look at other Free to Play games on the market they show just how powerful a Free to Play marketing strategy can be. The subscription models are being phased out in favor of the Free to Play model which rewards quality game development.
The concept is that you must supply a game for free which players would be willing to spend money on not for extra benefits but because they want to. This sets a high bar for developers but in the end has shown to be beyond effective.
Subscription quality game for free gets a lot of players to play, and don't underestimate the power of cosmetics. People are willing to spend 5-15 bucks to look good, if they weren't League of Legends would have gone bankrupt two years ago.
And as a final side note there is no NDA imposed on beta testers.
Hopefully this clears some things up because there's no point in getting angry or defensive with each other. If you ever have any doubts on somebody's claim ask the mods to chirp in. Sadly it's hard to cite the plethora of references we've stored up in our noggins but we do strive to be accurate and are very knowledgeable on the general news announcements.
Chances are we have at least some information on the topic rather than doubting each other.
Firstly, I doubt the business models are that different because we already know they use the same setup of zen <-> time currency and regular currency as the other games. STO has frequently used the idea that you "never have to pay a dime" as well.
If they are so different, why the arbitrary cap on earning Astral Diamonds?
They have definitely not said everything in the game will be free, only that you don't have to pay a dime. Cryptic is the kind of company (or has been so far) where that doesn't mean there won't be stuff like races/classes for sale, as you well admit. If we take League of Legends as an example, it gets a lot of criticism (and rightly so) that the new characters released (pay to play on release) are always more powerful and therefore purchasers have an advantage. Have the devs said anything to suggest this won't happen in NW?
When you speak of convenience, how do we know that doesn't include things that will let you skip content? Or tokens to unlock content/power such as the Fleet Ship Modules from STO?
You see, there's a bit of nebulous speak going on here.
Supposedly there will be no power affecting items in the cash shop, from which we are (I assume) supposed to infer that there will be no power affecting items for Astral Diamonds, as the two currencies can be freely interchanged. However, this isn't stated specifically. It's not unheard of for Cryptic devs to outright lie to the players, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm skeptical. We already know the AH will run on the ADs, so people are getting power for a cash-related currency. If someone sees a super powered sword on the AH and doesn't have the Diamonds to afford it, he can just buy some Zen and trade it, can't he? That sounds like buying power to me.
Cash -> Zen -> Astral Diamonds -> Rare items on the auction house
That would be why the cap is there, no? So that if you see a nice rare item on the AH, you can still only earn 24k per day, suggesting you buy Zen to get the item.
If I'm completely off the wall here and this would not be true, feel free to correct me. I have to question though, that if you won't be able to buy power, what's the point of being able to sell Zen for ADs? What's the point of the AD daily cap? Why not run the AH on Gold?
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
The marketing has not been finalized so most every question you ask is and will remain pure speculation no matter what I post.
As for League of Legends, don't mistake the noise of the few with the facts. Sure many champions are strong when they are first released but often times are tossed asside as underpowered within a week without any game modifications. That's the nature of that game: new champions are strong because players haven't figured out a good strategy against them yet.
The only thing which nobody has ever called LoL was pay to win. I'm not sure which minority of people in the world you're talking to but League of Legends is a true, balanced 100% free to play game.
As lanessar13 stated most things which cost astral diamonds have gold equivilences at a fair rate. The Astral Diamonds are a way to pay for cosmetics through in game vendors and little more. Some vendors do have decent items for sale for Astral Diamonds but while the Nightmare costs 2,000,000 AD these decent items tended to run between 1-2K AD.
Just to use a common reference point Astral Diamonds in Neverwinter at this point seem very much comparable to Influence Points. Most things which cost AD in game cost a small amount unless they are purely cosmetic. The big difference is that you can sell your 'influence points' in order to get actual cash shop credit to buy items such as bags, character slots and such.
This does in a way give real world value to AD but still these effects, at this point in time, seem to be nothing more than a method to save time in grinding for cosmetic benefits.
However, through this all, we should remember the goal in mind for Cryptic is and always will be to make us pay money to play/get what we want.
The answer to most questions come back to that very basic point...
The thing about the auction house though is that although players could, in theory, pay zen to get AD to buy some strong item...
Some other player gets that value too so to me it doesn't matter if a person ground for months to get his AD or spent a thousand dollars to buy a certain item...
In the end that value isn't being lost to the players. While players could fork out cash to spend on the AH, on the other end of the spectrum a player could sell his rare drops in order to fund his own desires instead of spending money. I don't have a problem with that, to me that balances out compared to directly giving the company money to advance faster than everybody else. Those who do pay to advance still give back to the rest of the players.
As you said, the goal in mind for Cryptic is to make us pay money to play/get what we want. That's fine, nobody's saying they shouldn't make money, but that suggests a different mindset to how much they're saying is completely free.
Though I don't think marketing would let them go with the more truthful version of: You never have to pay a dime, but our goal is to make you spend money.
Perhaps we can suggest that LoL heroes aren't overpowered when they launch, but that would be a matter of opinion. What we can look at as fact is the classes (ships) that are sold in the c-store for STO. The ships sold there are almost universally better and indeed the best ships require cash transactions. Lets forget that this is Cryptic's business model for that game for a moment. I think we could all agree that it's in Cryptic's interests financially to convince more people to buy the classes for cash. Thus the most desirable classes, ie 'coolest' or more powerful, would be less likely to be given out freely. The incentive to make the classes in the cash store more powerful/cooler directly falls in line with their financial goal for the game, I would say. What's to stop them from going down the road that STO did? Supposedly integrity, but while I give the NW team the benefit of the doubt, the other parts of the company don't give them a lot of leeway in that area.
At the very least we've established that, similar to Cryptic's other games, yes; a player can spend cash and obtain gameplay affecting (power) items in return.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
Ok, I think every one else get's this - I don't know why you don't seem to - I am 'not' missing the issue - I actually agree with a lot of things - my whole 'issue' is that you claimed that GW2 had a 'cosmetic' shop - I wanted to clarify that you are incorrect, you are wrong in that claim.
it is your claim of GW2 being Cosmetic only.
That sir is incorrect, this makes you wrong ON THAT POINT.
you mentioned this:
But with the ability to convert Gem's into gold, right in a tab next to the gem store, are you really attempting to claim that all those things that are for gold and 'affect your gameplay' are not to be considered as being available for Gem's? That would be ridiculous.
(once again - I freely admit, there is no 'time barrier' that is not my point - my point is that the shop in GW2 is not just 'cosmetic'.)
the rest of all that stuff that you keep saying - I'm not in total disagreement with that, I think you have very good valid points, I think they should all be considered, and heard.
I will stop harping on this, because I can see what is going on, psychologically, (and it's totally normal to feel this way,) you hate being told that you are 'wrong' on a point. you keep changing the point that I want to clarify, your claim that GW2 is cosmetic, you keep wanting to make my argument about all those other things. The points you keep redirecting to, we have actually have some similar feelings on.
BUT,
Regarding the point of Guild Wars 2 having a Cosmetic Only shop -
on that one point -
Would you concede that there are things in that shop, available that are not only cosmetic?
Anyway, even if you don't I really don't think I'll 'take the bait' on area in the future, I'll just recognize your inability to recognize that calling GW2 a 'cosmetic' shop wasn't right.
(last stab at it though - just because that one term (semantics yes,) is incorrect, does NOT invalidate all of your other points - (which you keep returning too.) those are good stuff. and hopefully Neverwinter is considering them as they go forward.
ok, the rest of you, I will put the stick I keep whacking this dead horse with down. thx for reading and sry for the distraction.
zWolf / Wesgar
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You said you were arguing semantics, which I don't feel had anything to do with what I was saying or the discussion of the thread.
The issue is that the NW business model is set up so one can pay cash for power items. The devs have made statements to this effect with "the auction house will run on Astral Diamonds" and "you can trade Zen (cash) for Astral Diamonds".
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
Completely correct on all counts. This is how I feel as well. But so many people think that game devs are just inhuman bots that write games for us and do not need to be paid or eat to survive.
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So . . . instead of posting here, go out and get your console and let other people spend their money as they choose? Or does it bother you that some people might not find the pricing bad at all? 199 bucks - not that expensive, really. Compare that to the hundreds or even thousands of dollars you spend on subscription games at 14.99/month.
Years ago when Everquest was at its prime, I calculated how much I spent on it. Mind you it had no pay add-ons. Just subscription play. I spent more on that game out of my pocket than I have spent buying the entire line of ships and items from the STO store (and I own everything in that store). $199 is pocket change compared to what I spent overall on Everquest. LOL. Yep . . . I'll stick to F2P games. Cheaper.
~shrug~ Enjoy your console
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This is the same misinformed opinion that people are posting in the STO forums as well, because they cannot get over the fact that some items in the C-store (now properly referred to as Z-store) have some minor stats attached.
Yes, I own everything in STO's store . . . but get this . . . I have one character of each faction who I do NOT give ANYTHING to from the store. My KDF character who has nothing from the store is just as powerful and excels as well as my toons who have store gear. In fact, my KDF guy can and WILL beat ANYONE in a c-store/z-store ship who dares to challenge me.
So . . . no . . . you do NOT need anything from Cryptic game stores in their games to excel. They have designed their stores so that you can get goodies to stand out a bit and be more of an individual in a cosmetic sense, but will ALWAYS be equaled by players who work in game to become such an equal (which is not that much work. Casual players are better than some store-nuts who "depend" on store gear to supposedly "survive").
You want Pay-to-Win? Go check out SWTOR. Now THAT is a pay-to-win model. Play that for a day since they went "F2P" and then come back and say that Cryptic is being unfair.
EDIT: To complete my last paragraph because I got "send happy". Oops.
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You italicized the important word there yourself. Can. But no one must pay cash for power items. Anything available for cash that is also available for AD is by definition a matter of only convenience. Both the cash purchaser and the time-based currency purchaser can get the same item. It's just way easier and faster for the cash purchaser. Convenience only.
Your other arguments regarding the conversion between AD and ZEN (cash) are compelling but flawed. Nobody actually has to spend a single ZEN to create AD. The AD exchange merely gives a way to convert time-based AD to cash-based ZEN and vice-versa. Outside of the allotments from the Founder's packs, AD are a true time-based currency that is only created by players actually playing the game.
In CO/STO the only way to obtain the time-based currencies is to refine them yourself or to buy them with ZEN. It will be far easier in NW to gather AD without spending any ZEN. Refining has a hard cap of 8000 units per character per day in both CO and STO. As of the last beta weekend, each character can refine 24,000 AD in NW. That triples the potential supply of AD. The Auction House using AD instead of gold actually removes some of the pressure to spend cash on ZEN. It essentially allows us to trade AD with other players without using ZEN at all. This, in turn, makes it possible to gather large quantities of AD together without involving ZEN at all.
Something else to think about is that if a player refrains from ever purchasing ZEN directly, but rather only obtains it by exchanging AD, then that player is effectively being payed cash to play the game. (But don't quit your day job.)
Champions Online Advanced Forum Search
Sure it's convenience. A convenient way to pay for power. "Convenience" is often used as a euphemism for pay for power in F2P games.
Paying real money for Zen, then Zen for AD, then AD for items on the AH, is paying for power. Simple as that.
The only question is how powerful the items will be that can be sold on the AH (and bought from vendors for AD) will be. Which is a question of degree of pay for power, not whether there will be pay for power. If the top-end items are bound to character or account, then the pay for power could be sufficiently limited.
Pay for power (and pay to win) is not about "must". It's about "can". Your distinctions on that point are irrelevant.
While some people could pay money to purchase AD to spend on the exchange others could use the exchange to generate AD and thereby gaining their own advantage. It's not a one way street.
And to me that's the difference between free to pay and pay to win. I have no problem with players being able to pay to get items from other players since in essence their money isn't lost to the players. Sure the paying players get an edge but the items aren't just being generated or handed out directly from the company.
The AD has to be purchased from another player who wants Zen, and then the item seller gets the AD the person paid for. Sure the company gets paid but so do the other players. That's completely different from games which simply sell powerful items to players where only the one player gets rewarded from the exchange.
1)Cosmetics like weapon skins, mounts, dyes etc.
2)Boosts that help you progress faster like xp boosts (NO STAT BOOSTS!)
3)Gold because people will find another place to buy it anyways.
4)Companions but they should be attainable through other means aswell.
Things it is not ok to pay for:
1)Raw power in terms of Gear, Buffs etc
2)Any and all advantages in PvP.
Things it might be ok to pay for:
1)Character slots
2)Bag and bank slots
3)Max lvl characters with basic gear (don't release this until at least a month after launch so that every1 has a chance to get to max lvl by then)
This is a very interesting position to take. If gold is okay to pay for than the only way to avoid people paying for gear is to not having player exchange of gear(either through auction house or player-to-player transfer) or have it traded for some other currency than that which you can pay for(or trade for in the case of zen to astral diamonds) in which case what is the point of buying gold in the first place?
Neverwinter Official Wiki - http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/
items that arent tradeable are still easily purchased, youd pay someone to use your account to earn the gold for you or buy an account that has the gold already. i mentioned previously i think, Bind on Pickup in no way prevents people from buying power.
there is no way to prevent anyone from buying power in the real world. the real world of video games haha however real it is. at the end of the day these are video games and cash is king, if you can pay for any item in life you can have it. maybe you cant buy love haha but you can certainly buy a decked out video game character...
There is a big difference between someone cheating at a game (and breaking ToS) by paying cash for power, and the game being designed to include paying cash for power as a part of its game mechanics.
a difference to who? what are we talking about right now?
It's a different game design (no pay for power in the game design, but some cheat, vs. pay for power in the game design), and it makes a difference to those playing the game.
I thought we were talking about selling gold in a cash shop being OK because people can buy it from farmers anyway.
I thought you were extending that to justifying selling all gear, because even binding gear wouldn't prevent purchasing from farmers. If you weren't making that point, then my response should've been directed at duckshogun.
not too sure how different the game design is, if they are so different itd be tough to say which was more fun if either was anyway. anything you do in a game makes a difference to someone, for instance many people on these forums love the no-mouse controls and many people hate them.
i dont care if farmers sell cash or PW sells cash, it makes no difference to me what other people do with their money. i never expected to come online and suddenly be in a utopian socialist society where when i log into an MMO, i can kill a boss as fast as anyone else because of my skill alone. actually i prefer PW sold the cash because then they make money, and i get to play a fun game for free because of it.
personally, i dont care what they sell or dont sell to people with too much money to spend. if the game is fun for me and my girlfriend thatll be what my focus is. not who is "better" than me at the game and why.
by the way, the game looks fun as hell