What competition?
I hope people understand this is a role playing game, not an e-peen stroker.
There is no ego contest in Neverwinter Nights or Skyrim, why should there be one here?
Even for PvP, I hope people play for the fun of all, not to humiliate other players. Winning is not the point, having fun is!
Actually there might be competition on the economy if you are playing the game for more than just casual beat-them-up. And it has been clear that this game is not full RP either.
I just hope they make these things more clear in the future so that we know what to expect from the game economy. If they are going to make "the next big MMORPG" they really need to think these things through so well that the player does not get bored or frustrated on the system.
There will no doubt be better gear at the high end. Cryptic engine allows for Geat Sets which give additional ablities for having 2+ pieces of the gear set slotted. A Trickster Rogue set might be Armor, 2 Dirks, and a Belt. 2 Pieces of the set may give a bonus to Deflection, 3 pieces might give give +3 Dex and +1 Str, 4 pieces may give a +25% to Stealth duration. And the stats for each pieces of gear will be as good as or better than drops.
Yeah but the question is will we be able to grind dungeons/raids etc for the gear or are we going to have to refine our astral diamonds then wait another day to refine again just to buy a single piece of gear, then wait another 2 days (if not more) to buy another piece of gear, because that is exactly how STO works. None of the gear you actually get from running STFs (dungeons/raids) compare to the rep stuff you have to buy with the dilithium whose acquisition is time restricted via the daily refining limit.
"Reality is but a figment of our collective imaginations." -N.E.S.
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I think everyone is looking at this from the incorrect perspective. Do not look at it from Cryptic's past track record, but from that of PWE. There is a reason Cryptic chose PWE to host and run this game. PWE has the experience and creativity of running a cash shop that is truly dynamic to game play. Just log in and look at any of their recent games or join a forum and ask those who are playing. All these games offer items through cash shops. Difference is PWE now has the experience of understanding just how greedy the player base can be. The cash shop works off of the most basic human drives. Greed, Envy, Lust, Gluttony. As a past and current gamer of PWE games, the cash shop is by no means the only way to obtain items of a given nature, but is the only way to obtain the "Best" items. This could be as simple as mount speed.
In game quests or game money can buy u a mount with 50% speed increase. "Hey, u have a mount right??" Cash shop offers a variety of mounts from 50%-250% speed increase, with new mounts added periodically to entice the player base to buy the more unique mount, and sell their current mounts. Selling the current mounts allows other players to purchase these "cash shop only" items. It's a revolving door. Those who utilize the cash shop have a proven record of wanting it "FIRST", being the "unique" player in game. Showing off what others can only hope to get one day.
While the cash shop is not exactly intended to be game breaking, those with deep pockets will use them. I am playing a game right now where more than a few individuals have spent over $5000 a year on cash shop items to be the best. (translated directly into purchasing "Zen" with real life money) PWE has them hook, line and sinker.
don't think PWE knows the player base that well? Just look at all the posters running around with new fancy titles for a game that has not been released.
Founder packs is just the start. PWE LOVES PACKS !!!!!
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true2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 12Arc User
edited February 2013
I just really hope the cryptic guys have done there homework on this. The economy of AD will all basically boil down to a balance of Gain rate vs burn rate. First off i REALLY REALLY HOPE that 25,000 refined cap is a beta placeholder or my $60 for 125k (aka 5 days worth) is going to really feel like a raw deal.
AD are used for several internal things during the beta i found that removing a sigil from armor takes AD, Removing a rune stone takes AD and resting feats took AD. if fact removing 1 level 5 sigil i managed to make via A LOT of trail and error took a major chuck of AD. Buying a second or 3rd companion cost a chuck (100k in beta) assuming more don't drop during adventures and its clear there 2 more slots to unlock at least.
Also remember there are other ways to get refined ADs I found many of the higher level token vendors had a "Chest of ADs" on them for sale for your extra tokens.
In short we as players don't have the full picture yet on AD gain and burn. Till we do we have no way to even guess if there will be a gult of AD on the zen exchange or a shortage. The crafting system is also a major wild card here will combinds take AD? will user made gear blue grade + and worth trying to sell in AH. what are the drop rates of the High level tokens that can be exchanged for chests of AD. How much should the average player playing 2-3 hours a day (IE people who play A LOT but have jobs/school ext) get from the gods and the group events the drop diamonds. I don't know about you but i only got diamonds maybe 1 our of 5 times i prayed and some of them were only like 700 getting 25,000 in 24 hours that way would be impractical unless you don't sleep and don't work/school.
We also don't know what measures cryptic is taking to prevent farming bots. if the game gets invaded by diamond farmers to make ZEN to then resell things could get out of wack really fast.
Lastly how many people will want to convert AD back into zen? The only think i saw in the placeholder Zen shop during the beta that i would buy is bags of holding. Assuming that there is't a way of crafting them or some where later in the game they can be bought for AD/gold. But thats me some people will want to burn AD for a cool looking mount. If the add new classes or races to Zen store that could get interesting. I really hope they don't personally I was kinda annoyed at eq2 F2p when i have to pay $$ to unlock a class that i though looked fun but then changed my mind.
As long as everything that can be bought with cash can also be acquired through time in game, it's all copacetic. If I work all day and can only play 1-2 hours, compared to someone who doesn't work and can play 6+ hours a day. I think I should be able to use the money I made while they were playing to even myself out with those folk.
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ganiriesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
There is a reason Cryptic chose PWE to host and run this game.
I believe Cryptic Studios was purchased, by Perfect World, from Atari who was going through financial difficulty.
I'l echo what people have said about the astral diamonds here. I don't mind a certain amount of influx of real money into the game through the zen > AD system. I also don't mind playing the game for a two-three weeks to afford something in-game, that people may purchase through the store instantly.
My big concern is the grind aspect of attaining these items, either cosmetic or game-functional. I've played games like EQ2, Aion etc, where daily quests for faction or various tokenage (including PvP points), were the worst sort of grind I've experienced.
I'd actually prefer to run a dungeon 20 times in hope for some loot, rather than receive, say, 10,000 AD a day maximum through various means, just for that 1,000,000 AD item I want. It's boring and ultimately why after 10+ years of mmos, I stopped playing them.
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alsarothMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's a very interesting concept and the fact that a FTP player can earn everything in-game is a big plus.
As far as the in-game economy goes, if more people are buying Astral Diamonds the price will go down in the Auction House. If less people are buying them the price will go up. So more paying customers means the price for AD will go down for the free-to-play players.
This is a new system to me so I may be misunderstanding it. The biggest risk all FTP games have is that people won't have any reaosn to want to buy things. This is the birth of pay to win. As much as people want the "pay" items to be purely cosmetic, I just dont' think people will be willing to buy them.
I played effectively as a free to play player during the beta test period. I died a few times ,but I never failed a quest. I came close in one of the foundry missions, but still we managed to succeed. So while the in-store purchable AD aren't cosmetic, they are "nice to haves" in my opinion. People are paying to have nice things sooner that aren't necessary to complete quests.
Now the one exception is PVP. I think it would be beneficial if Cryptic added a "no boosts" option to PVP for their own good. They don't want FTP players to get frustrated that they are slightly disadvantaged to someone buying boosts. The "no boosts" option means a FTP player can ensure they aren't going up against a player that has 10% more power for a long time because they spent $50. I don't understand their PVP model enough to know how paying will tip the balance, but it's something Cryptic should look at. Otherwise they are basically writing off FTP folks that mainly want to play PVP.
Beyond PVP, I see no basis to call this game pay to win. A person is paying to have nice things now, but none of those nice things are necessary to complete quests.
I just really hope the cryptic guys have done there homework on this. The economy of AD will all basically boil down to a balance of Gain rate vs burn rate. First off i REALLY REALLY HOPE that 25,000 refined cap is a beta placeholder or my $60 for 125k (aka 5 days worth) is going to really feel like a raw deal.
AD are used for several internal things during the beta i found that removing a sigil from armor takes AD, Removing a rune stone takes AD and resting feats took AD. if fact removing 1 level 5 sigil i managed to make via A LOT of trail and error took a major chuck of AD. Buying a second or 3rd companion cost a chuck (100k in beta) assuming more don't drop during adventures and its clear there 2 more slots to unlock at least.
Also remember there are other ways to get refined ADs I found many of the higher level token vendors had a "Chest of ADs" on them for sale for your extra tokens.
In short we as players don't have the full picture yet on AD gain and burn. Till we do we have no way to even guess if there will be a gult of AD on the zen exchange or a shortage. The crafting system is also a major wild card here will combinds take AD? will user made gear blue grade + and worth trying to sell in AH. what are the drop rates of the High level tokens that can be exchanged for chests of AD. How much should the average player playing 2-3 hours a day (IE people who play A LOT but have jobs/school ext) get from the gods and the group events the drop diamonds. I don't know about you but i only got diamonds maybe 1 our of 5 times i prayed and some of them were only like 700 getting 25,000 in 24 hours that way would be impractical unless you don't sleep and don't work/school.
We also don't know what measures cryptic is taking to prevent farming bots. if the game gets invaded by diamond farmers to make ZEN to then resell things could get out of wack really fast.
Lastly how many people will want to convert AD back into zen? The only think i saw in the placeholder Zen shop during the beta that i would buy is bags of holding. Assuming that there is't a way of crafting them or some where later in the game they can be bought for AD/gold. But thats me some people will want to burn AD for a cool looking mount. If the add new classes or races to Zen store that could get interesting. I really hope they don't personally I was kinda annoyed at eq2 F2p when i have to pay $$ to unlock a class that i though looked fun but then changed my mind.
This is both a relief and very scary at the same time :x To hear that AD are required for sooo many things in the game is terrifying given the daily refining limit. On the other hand to hear that there are other ways to gain AD other than just refining is a huge relief. I can only hope that the amount of AD one can potentially farm every day is great enough to cover the things its actually NEEDED for as well as still save up to buy the things we want.
Either way only time will tell I guess as none of us know exactly how the AD system is setup yet or how well it will work in the long run. I just really hope that if they are going to require it for so many things in the game as it sounds like they are that the daily cap on how much you are able to require is very high or more preferablly isn't capped at all.
"Reality is but a figment of our collective imaginations." -N.E.S.
I think it's safe to assume that we'll see "Baldur's Chest" or some sort of lockbox style mechanic that they have in all PWE games and have introduced into STO and Champs. Most likely you'll have to purchase "Scrolls of Unlocking" or something to open them.
They will also most likely charge for new classes in NW as well as mounts, costumes, etc.
They make quite a lot of claims on how free this game is and how you'll never have to spend a dime, but those aren't exactly the whole truth.
Here's how it will work (going based on STOs current model):
The best items in the game will not be given via drops, like in a normal MMO; they will require you spending either Astral Diamonds or Zen.
Some will only cost Astral Diamonds, say 4-6 days worth of AD grinding per piece. Of course, you may have to spend a few hundred thousand Astral Diamonds to unlock the store first, just so you can see the items.
The very very best items that influence your gameplay the most, will require a special token that you can only get via microtransactions. You'll probably be able to buy the tokens on the auction house because ADs = Zen, or you can just trade your ADs for Zen. Of course, they don't tell you that someone/you had to spend Zen (aka Cash) to get those tokens. If you traded your ADs for Zen, they gloss over the fact that someone had to buy that Zen with Cash. So no matter how you acquire it, Crytpic will have forced someone to pay cash for the item that you get.
Alternatively, you can get some these best items via a lockbox. Lockboxes are gambling. You'll need to acquire a key ($1.25 in the C-store) to open these random treasure chests you'll find popping up in your inventory. You'll want to open them because they contain random loot, and some decent stuff. Of course, you have a chance to win a super coveted item that will make a huge difference in your gameplay, but it's only a 0.5% chance. That means the average cost for one of these is $250 to Cryptic. You may open one (or 200) and only get some mediocre loot you're not interested in, though.
That's the way it's done in STO, at least. The items that influence your gameplay the most require microtransactions, if you want the best version. Perhaps you won't have to spend your cash, but someone will have to spend cash to Cryptic.
Well, for those of us that have a job and are not in mommy's basement whining, I fully support the game and look forward to buying more goodies. And it is mostly for the devs, because as with STO, the grass is not always greener stat-wise. I have literally every item possible in the STO store and none of it is any better than gear I have acquired from questing. I buy the stuff to support the devs. It will be the same in Neverwiner, and I will go on supporting.
Yah, I think a lot of posters are confusing speculation with opinion, which is what the Op asked for. Not speculation.
I think the monetization system has promise so far. I only hope, like others have said, that there will be a astral diamond sink and enough supply and variety to meet the demand so the economy doesn't crash in-game.
Well, for those of us that have a job and are not in mommy's basement whining, I fully support the game and look forward to buying more goodies. And it is mostly for the devs, because as with STO, the grass is not always greener stat-wise. I have literally every item possible in the STO store and none of it is any better than gear I have acquired from questing. I buy the stuff to support the devs. It will be the same in Neverwiner, and I will go on supporting.
Well, despite you being condescending and insulting for no reason, people have a legitimate concern. If you think the items gotten in STO via microtransactions (ships, for example) aren't better than what you have gotten via questing, you may not have seen the whole game yet. The whole top two tiers of ships are definitively better than the rest (more unique powers, better stats, more gear slots) and all require microtransactions at some point in the game. You can call it speculation if you want, but there's no evidence it will be any different, because they're conveniently leaving facts out.
In fact, it's not really speculation because they point it out in the journal:
Because you can put your Astral Diamonds up on an auction house and sell them for micro-transactable points. Then you can purchase anything you'd like in our micro-transaction store.
Where do you think those "micro-transactable points" (aka Zen) come from? Cryptic certainly won't be just giving away Zen for ADs, they would be giving away money. No, someone is going to have to buy the Zen with cash to trade them to you. It's right there in black-and-white. If nobody buys Zen with Cash to trade, there will be no Zen on the auction house.
So the tagline of "Get Everything You Want by Playing" isn't totally true. I'd call it a lie, but I'm content if you want to call it a misleading half-truth.
Look, I've been dreaming of a game like this for years. The FR campaign setting and the Foundry alone will guarantee that I'll end up sinking some money into this game, possibly quite a lot. I'll admit though, that the reason I haven't bought a Founder's pack (yet) is because I don't really like the idea of paying to play in a beta (even an open beta) and because of the uncertainty surrounding the monetisation issue, i.e. what are unlockables going to cost in relation to real money (breaking down the $<ZEN<AD transaction RATE, not the process). While I might (it's a big might with 2 more beta weekends to go) be able to hang out until release, the second issue is for me the more concerning one. I understand what's been said about fluctuating market rates of exchange, but as far as store costs go, a founder paying $200 should at this stage have some idea of what their $750k AD is worth. Additionally, I've heard a lot of sweeping assurances about only mounts, cosmetics, xp packs, extra character slots and bag space being charged for... but I have yet to hear even one dev guarantee that things like races, classes or anything else for that matter, WONT be pay-to-unlock.
So, 1. Please give us some assurances about EXACTLY what WONT be a pay-to-unlock in the game, and 2. give us an idea of what we'll likely have to spend to unlock the things that ARE pay-to-unlock.
Please and thank you.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
very scared just because it is possible to obtain anything by playing does not automatically exclude the possibility that the game will become p2p. so instead of farming for 200 hours I can just spend 5 dollars and get what I want. it is unrealistic to expect some 1 to play that long just to stay in the competition. Then again it really depends on what is sold.
Question: If I buy Zen and sell it in the Auction House for Astral Diamonds... Doesn't that mean that I can basically convert dollars into Zen into Diamonds into a basically unlimited bankroll for my character to buy the best gear in the game at prices out of reach for the normal player who only buys some stuff from the cash shop?
If so, the players who are willing to drop big bucks can get OP gear like crazy by just selling Zen.
I appreciate that everything can be gotten for free in NW, and I hope it works out, but Dollars to Diamonds to Gold completely imbalanced Runes of Magic's economy, putting hardcore gear utterly out of reach - unless you shelled out real money.
I would hope, instead, that you somehow make sure that the NW economy isn't whacked out by the Cash Shop. I really dislike it when that happens.
Still, I hope it works out for you guys. Good luck!
You can't buy ZEN in the Auction House and must exchange it for AD in the Fluctuating rate of exchange in game like STO does with Dilithium and ZEN. Supply and demand will set the rate you can "buy" one for the other.
There is a limit on how much refined ADs will be available. Although player will be able to earn a lot of AD per day, those ADs are "raw". They have to be refined into useable currency. And there is a limit on how much a character can refine per day. And you have to log in every day to be able to refine your daily limit.
So that means players could drop a lot of Zen on the AD (I keep wanted to type AD&D ) and buy up all of the available AD. But then the supply will dry up until more raw AD are converted into refined AD.
This is absolutely correct. See above via the exchange readers.
From beta weekend one all the gear you could buy with diamonds was either off the AH, which was just drops and random stuff for low amounts of diamonds. The gear you could buy off the vendors will be sort of good for leveling but you will outlevel it fast, and another thing to add is that the gear you buy with diamonds is the gear that you buy with symbols which is "the worse" gear apposed to gear that will drop in dungeons.
So the astral diamond gear will not unbalance the game and the only stuff available on the cash shop was some quality of life stuff, Xp boosts you can buy some companions(which you get for free at level 16) dye and costume items.
For anyone that has some really burning questions from a beta weekend player feel free to PM me and I will answer your questions!
This also is correct. The "best" gear available for your character is potentially available in 5 person only delves at the end of a zone. You can re run them to try and get "all" the treasure drops for your class but timers limit the number of times you can replay one.
What are you going to buy? Especially considering the best drops are dungeon drops and not transferable.
So man ypeople forget this notion when considering that argument. Basically you get a guy who has alot of in game gold and use it to buy stuff with little to no meaning in the grand scheme of things. It's not as if you can use real life money to buy that +9 Vorpal Sword.
Is it confirmed that the absolute best gear will be available through dungeons/raids only? If that is the case, then the AD system is fine for me.
However, if the best gear is gated behind an artificial time sink, by artificial I mean daily refining of RAD, I will be disappointed.
Grinding dungeons for gear isn't artificial to me.
I hope that if you can buy gear off the auction house with astral diamonds - and that if you can buy astral diamonds with Zen and therefore buy gear with real money - that PvP gear is obtainable only via PvP.
PvP won't be worth participating in if players can out-gear each other just by throwing money at the system.
PvP earns Glory and Glory earns PvP shop sold equipment. No exploiting this allowed.
Actually there might be competition on the economy if you are playing the game for more than just casual beat-them-up. And it has been clear that this game is not full RP either.
I just hope they make these things more clear in the future so that we know what to expect from the game economy. If they are going to make "the next big MMORPG" they really need to think these things through so well that the player does not get bored or frustrated on the system.
The game is based on you must cooperate together just to get the best gear. See my Delve answer above.
Yeah but the question is will we be able to grind dungeons/raids etc for the gear or are we going to have to refine our astral diamonds then wait another day to refine again just to buy a single piece of gear, then wait another 2 days (if not more) to buy another piece of gear, because that is exactly how STO works. None of the gear you actually get from running STFs (dungeons/raids) compare to the rep stuff you have to buy with the dilithium whose acquisition is time restricted via the daily refining limit.
They make quite a lot of claims on how free this game is and how you'll never have to spend a dime, but those aren't exactly the whole truth.
Here's how it will work (going based on STOs current model):
The best items in the game will not be given via drops, like in a normal MMO; they will require you spending either Astral Diamonds or Zen.
Some will only cost Astral Diamonds, say 4-6 days worth of AD grinding per piece. Of course, you may have to spend a few hundred thousand Astral Diamonds to unlock the store first, just so you can see the items.
The very very best items that influence your gameplay the most, will require a special token that you can only get via microtransactions. You'll probably be able to buy the tokens on the auction house because ADs = Zen, or you can just trade your ADs for Zen. Of course, they don't tell you that someone/you had to spend Zen (aka Cash) to get those tokens. If you traded your ADs for Zen, they gloss over the fact that someone had to buy that Zen with Cash. So no matter how you acquire it, Crytpic will have forced someone to pay cash for the item that you get.
Alternatively, you can get some these best items via a lockbox. Lockboxes are gambling. You'll need to acquire a key ($1.25 in the C-store) to open these random treasure chests you'll find popping up in your inventory. You'll want to open them because they contain random loot, and some decent stuff. Of course, you have a chance to win a super coveted item that will make a huge difference in your gameplay, but it's only a 0.5% chance. That means the average cost for one of these is $250 to Cryptic. You may open one (or 200) and only get some mediocre loot you're not interested in, though.
That's the way it's done in STO, at least. The items that influence your gameplay the most require microtransactions, if you want the best version. Perhaps you won't have to spend your cash, but someone will have to spend cash to Cryptic.
And fortunately thanks to the failings it cause, Cryptic learned what not to do and will have top items earned through playing as well as the "isn't it worth a little to make it easier or you look better" options in the store. I will personally be passing out the torches and pitchforks from my "bag of pitchfork and torch holding" if they do otherwise.
And fortunately thanks to the failings it cause, Cryptic learned what not to do and will have top items earned through playing as well as the "isn't it worth a little to make it easier or you look better" options in the store. I will personally be passing out the torches and pitchforks from my "bag of pitchfork and torch holding" if they do otherwise.
I very much hope this is true. Unfortunately, at this point I can only go on past history, which is STO. In STO, Cryptic recently moved away from the "dungeon" (STF) gear drop system and is moving toward a faction unlock system where you have to pay hundreds of thousands of the time-currency to unlock and buy the best items. With STO, Cryptic still has the most influential part of your gameplay experience (your ship) require microtransactions for any of the top two tiers/endgame ones.
If a dev can guarantee that we won't have to pay Zen/ADs for classes (the most influential part of your gameplay), that the best gear will not be sold via Zen/ADs, and that things like classes/races won't be put into Lockboxes for Zen gambling, then I will rest easier. Those things are not cosmetic, those are buying gameplay power.
If that's the case, then I will look forward to the game and hope that the NW Cryptic team doesn't end up changing their mind or lying to us like we've seen the STO team do. Though I will say it is hard to hope for that, since the STO team still has top items in the store suggesting that they didn't learn the lesson you suggest.
I would feel better if we had more definitive official Dev response on this topic.
(I was posting this in another thread, when I ran across this one that already has a link to the article -but I'll leave my original content alone with this one little add.)
I quite enjoyed the article - and it's great to see that they are striving to not have anything 'exclusive' to 'paying' customers - I really like that.
It sounds like they hope to make 'paying' more about saving time on grinding, rather than having an exclusive 'for pay' item list. Although that said, for some things, you'd have to have a high level toon, grinding for the runes and enchants - or rare gear, for a leveling toon, as you'd not have enough 'time' to grind for those improvements as you leveled, before you leveled up.
That is one concern of mine, in how they will handle gear improvements in PVP. If they allow PvP at lower levels, then folks willing to 'pay' for the runes, and gear enhancement items, are going to have a significant gear advantage, over those that are 'grinding' for drops.
At Max Level - it goes back to just being a 'time' thing, and that's not really a concern to me - but as you level up, there just won't be enough 'time to grind' the drops needed to upgrade your gear to a point to compete with some one willing to drop a few bucks on gear upgrades. Other than perhaps, if the free player, used an alternate character to grind the gear / companion upgrades - then I suppose that might go back to making 'pay' just a 'faster way' to get where you could by 'play'.
but the keeping up with a 'paying' account just wont be possible (as far as I could tell, watching drop rate etc.) for some one that planned on just using one character. (that character would level up to fast, grinding for gear / companion upgrades.)
Over all though - this game falls well within what I consider 'Tolerable' pay standards. The Dev's certainly seem to be hoping / trusting - that the game will be very accessible to folks for free - and that is encouraging.
My question is does anyone know of any additional information on how they plan to handle PvP and Gear Upgrades?
Will they limit the level that you can upgrade Companion Runes and Gear Enhancements?
Perhaps not allow Companions in PvP? or, turn off the effects of Gear Slot upgrades?
As I mentioned above, at max level, I don't think these things matter, as it's just a matter of whether you put in the time to grind, or pay to save the time on getting the upgrades - but as you level up? That seems pretty slanted towards those willing to put in a few bucks to me.
Has anyone played PVP? Or are there any plans in place to mitigate the strong advantage that 'for pay' customers might have over some one that only wants to play for free?
Thanks,
zWolf -out.
Thanks,
zWolf / Wesgar
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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wesgarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
If a dev can guarantee that we won't have to pay Zen/ADs for classes (the most influential part of your gameplay), that the best gear will not be sold via Zen/ADs, and that things like classes/races won't be put into Lockboxes for Zen gambling, then I will rest easier. Those things are not cosmetic, those are buying gameplay power.
I do not understand this sense of 'entitlement' What on earth makes this guy think that a game company 'owes' him a free game???!!
there are people, getting paid 'Real' Salaries to make and market this game - the 'free' aspect is to attempt to get the game out there to as many people as possible in hopes that many of those that see and play it will be willing to pay for all the work that goes into making it.
How can a guy look at all the work that goes into Star Trek Online, or Neverwinter online, and all the 'free play' that a person 'could get' out of the game with out dropping a dime, and then complain about the point at which the company / drug dealer says;
"ok, you like this stuff? it's fun isn't it! well, It's time to pay the hamsters to keep on powering the wheel you are running on, so it's time for you to pony up some cash."
Grrr - I imagine that the 'things' that he says in his post -are worth looking at, in that the things that he mentions decreased the 'fun' that he was having in game, (at the companies expense of course,) - but it's the 'tone' that he said it in... this 'i'm entitled to free and it better be my way!' tone that sets me on edge.
sigh.
/rant off.
zWolf.
(Edit: - upon reflection, I just wanted to note that I HATE free to play games - I ALWAYS end up spending more on those that I like than on subscription "pay to play" type games. so on a personal note, I would have liked it more if the game was NOT 'free to play' - but, since it IS, if I enjoy playing it, (and I do, very much so,) I feel some what obligated at some point, to kick some of my cash over towards the work that was put into creating such a fun / fine game.)
Also - my retroactive apologies to the poster I quoted - I may have been a bit brash... it happens sometimes. /end edit.
What competition?
I hope people understand this is a role playing game, not an e-peen stroker.
There is no ego contest in Neverwinter Nights or Skyrim, why should there be one here?
Even for PvP, I hope people play for the fun of all, not to humiliate other players. Winning is not the point, having fun is!
It's an MMO, someone somewhere will turn it into a contest even if it's just him/her/it vs. the world.
I heard a rumor that some of the functionality of the Foundry would need to be purchased with currency? Is that true? if not true, please say so.
According to the COO of Cryptic in a presentation about the Foundry last year, absolutely zero elements of the Foundry will be hidden behind paywalls.
The reason being for that is simple, in a paraphrasing of his own words -
A player could come into Neverwinter with an idea for an Orc mission, it could be the greatest Orc mission in the game and the most played Orc mission. But if he has to pay for the assets to make it, it might never get made.
The most you will pay for in the Foundry is mission slots. Everything else will be unlocked after a certain level is reached.
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wesgarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
Did anyone note down how many Diamonds (that need refining) you can get from praying in a 24hr period? cos i noticed i only got diamonds for the first few time i prayed then i only got other goodies on subsequent ones.
That seemed to be a 'random' thing - sometimes I'd get just a few, sometimes I'd get a couple hundred, and other times it would be between 1 and 2K worth.
So, basically, you could 'spin the wheel' 24 times in a day at shrines... it was kind of fun actually. :-) Hopefully as the game progresses, some one will take the time to actually 'track' the random rolls, and we can get a sense for the range of what you 'could' win in a 24 Hour period, if you were to roll once every hour. (sounds like a kind of fun project actually.)
Well despite you flying off the handle, you're also wrong. Nobody (or at least not me) thinks anyone owes them a free game. However, you do realize that they are advertising it as a "free game" right?
The issue here isn't that we're entitled to anything, it's what they're advertising vs. how the implement the "Pay Wall".
Let me give you an example scenario:
For example, what if after launch, they release one of the new classes they're working on, let's say a Ranger class. As you said, though, they need to make money, so they decide to charge $25 to unlock the Ranger class. Now, as they say, nobody has to unlock the Ranger class, but if you really like rangers, you'll consider it. Turns out, this hypothetical Ranger happens to be the best DPS class in the game, making you more powerful than the people who didn't pay for this class. Therefore, anyone who spends this $25 is more powerful by default. Now, you may not have to spend $25 yourself, you can trade in your Astral Diamonds for Zen and get the $25 in Zen that way, but someone else had to pay Cryptic $25 for that Zen. Also, you may have had to pay 2.4 Million ADs to get enough Zen, which takes 100 days because you're capped at refining 24k per day. Cryptic doesn't care because either way they made the $25 when you unlock it. Maybe rangers get groups easier because they are more powerful, so it's easier to do harder raids and dungeons. This means if you haven't paid, you have a harder time getting a group when up against someone who has.
So in this scenario: Cryptic releases a new class (yay!) and it happens to be the best DPS class in the game (cool!), but you have to pay $25 to unlock it. If you do unlock it, you'll be the best at dps and very easily beat out people who didn't buy it. If you want it but don't want to pay cash, you can grind for 100 days to get the ADs enough for it, while still being a lower dps class. Then you just trade your ADs to someone else who did pay $25, so Cryptic still gets their cut. If you pay, you may get more rewards because you get groups easier and defeat content easier.
In that scenario, you are paying to be more powerful. That is a scenario I don't want in games that are free2play, that makes them pay2win. That scenario is how things work in STO right now, that scenario is already in place by part of Cryptic's team.
Is that a scenario you want? It's not one I want. With the awesome replies from Truthseeker it gives me hope that this won't happen, but it makes me wary, and I think Cryptic needs to hear from people like me who are concerned.
Thank you so much for clearing some things up TruthSeeker, you da man! My fears that were inspired by the companies past track record have been greatly alleviated for the most part and can't wait to see how everythings turns out.
"Reality is but a figment of our collective imaginations." -N.E.S.
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wesgarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
Is that a scenario you want? It's not one I want. With the awesome replies from Truthseeker it gives me hope that this won't happen, but it makes me wary, and I think Cryptic needs to hear from people like me who are concerned.
1st, regarding my /Rant at your expense - ya heh, this was one of those posts that when I was finished, I was already all out of 'rage gass' - it had been spent putting the words on paper and I probably shouldn't have hit the 'post' button before 'rewording' my thoughts - the truth is that you bring up Valid points - I actually share some of your viewpoints, well at least I would much prefer to pay for the box version, and pay for Quality user created content and developer made expansions in a store.
In other words, I'd prefer the 'traditional' approach to selling games.
As a matter of fact, when I played this at PAX, I was VERY disheartened to learn that they wanted to go with the 'free to play' monetization plan. Though I had a blast playing it, I actually just put it out of my mind as a game I was even remotely interested in.
I think that the 'Free to Play' title ends up causing a whole bunch of confusion. I mean 'obviously' they aren't going to produce a game like this and offer it for free - and the more that a company 'brags' about how 'free' that their game is, the more resentment that company gets, when it's users run into the areas where the company plans to monetize. So far, the closest 'free to play' game comes remotely close to being 'free' is League of Legends, and even THAT community complains about the fact that it seems that the 'newly released' characters that you can buy, seem to be somewhat OP when they are first released... eventually getting 'nerfs' applied that bring them inline with the rest of the 'normal' heroes.
Anyway - ya, I'm cautiously optimistic on this game, because though it's true that the more that a company 'brags' about how 'free' that their game is the more risk they have of a customer feeling 'cheated' when they see the parts that are 'not so free' or 'almost free' (hah.) It is also true that the more that they brag about it, it seems that the more likely that they are to pay attention to concerns from the community about areas that don't 'feel free'.
That said, I'm curious as to how you'd propose that they monetize the game. Assume that you do want to make money, and the company paying the employee's that you hire to make your game are set on the 'free to play' model because it has proven successful with other products that they make or own. The end goal of course, is turning a profit, you aren't doing this for practice, and you aren't doing it so people can 'play for free' - the 'free' part is just to get the product in front of more eyeballs in hopes of getting more money.
Of course the benefit to the players is that if you come up with a model that your 'cash supplying company' (in this case Perfect world) will sign off on, and your players respond to by paying more, then ALL the players (even those just checking out the 'free sections') will benefit from the fact that you will be able to invest even MORE dollars into providing more content.
How would you do it? (the key here, is that you HAVE to be free to play cause the guy's signing your check, and the checks of those that work for you, demand it - to them, it's the best way to make money on a game. and of course you have to make the fans happy - the more of them that feel that it's 'free enough' the more of them that will look at it, and the more of a chance you will have to get more cash from 'some' of them to fund your team.)
and lastly, I really am sorry I wasn't more tactful in how I said you sounded 'entitled'. I could have phrased it better.
It is very hard to make working or even close to balance economy in games such as this.
Hopefully the markets won't be as flooded as I imagine they will be and that NWO does not follow the path D3 did on it's AH (which is a failure at best).
Hopefully with the "currency" you will just be able to buy cosmetic and other "not effecting the game balance" material like mounts, animations and such.
You did notice, that the AH in NWO is not CASH. It's micro-transaction points (at least one is). The player will not be getting cash, all the cash goes to the company. And if the AH currency is in micro-transactable points that can be used in the store, then that will definitely be a game limiting feature. So the question that isn't answered is, what currency (or currencies) will be used on the AH. Having more then one type of currency (weather it's gold & cash - see D3) will definitely put a damper on the AH. Lots of unanswered questions still to jump to any conclusions. Another reason why I won't shell out for a founder's pack. Just too much unknown, and after getting burnt by pre-release hype by some of the best game companies of the last 20 years, I will take the "wait & see" route this time.
I have been playing MMOs for a long time. I was "MUDDing" long before the term MMO even existed. Someone earlier in this thread made the point that regardless if this is a F2P or P2P game, there are REAL people making REAL salaries to make this game. That should be the point in this entire thread. The game has ALOT to offer without you spending one red penny. But, if you have the cash and dont have the patience then by all means spend it and get your shinys faster than Billy (no offense to any real Billys out there.) over here and enjoy the game, thats your choice. I dont have any issue paying to play. I am a professional and an adult and understand that without consumers (yes, everybody on this thread/board ARE consumers) spending money in some form or fashion, then nothing happens. Money is made to be spent.
I for one will be not only playing the game a considerable amount, I am glad I have understanding kids and a wife. , but I am also going to "buy" $20 worth of ZEN every month. That equates to 2,000 ZEN per month. Now how many astral diamonds that is I have no clue nor do I really care. I see it as simple a subscription fee that I pay to PLAY AND SUPPORT the game.
Rigas
Rigas Crimstone, Officer
"Perfecting the art of being a meatshield since 1998"
I believe the AH will run only on Astral Diamonds...I have seen that mentioned multiple times by developers.
I am mostly worried myself about the game content being sold (or needing to be purchased). Like wesgar I prefer the more traditional monthly fee to free to play. I'm ok though with FTP as long as the value for your money is ok and it doesn't end up costing you much more then a monthly account would. I'm a bit worried though about the value we are going to get based on the founders packs.
I purchased the founders pack (btw..why don't I have the hero of the north title?) with the assumption that Astral Diamonds were the currency used to purchase account upgrades. Why? Well I'm primarily coming over from Dungeons and Dragons online. It's the MMO I've played the most in the last 4 years or so (I've played WoW, Champions online (but not since it went FTP) and most recently Knights of the old republic.
When you purchase things with money in previous MMO's (and for me especially in DDO), you get currency to buy account upgrades (Turbine points for DDO). I naturally expected that to be what astral diamonds were....and since I'm more then happy to pay for a good game, I got the founders pack.
Thing is, Astral Diamonds are not upgrade currency. I'm still fine with spending the money I shelled out, since the game is going to be fun (Saw that in the brief time I could play last weekend), but I am a bit that I won't be able to buy new classes, or character slots etc once the game launches with the money I already spent.
That being said, we did get extra char slots with the packs already, and we don't even know if new classes are going to need to be purchased yet. Hopefully they will not.
I know FTP works well for companies, but it seems hard to balance both allowing everyone to play, and allowing people who pay to get something for it (while needing people to pay to support the game). I'm more then happy to pay $15 a month for any game that is keeping me interested and playing 10+ hours a week. I'll do that for cosmetic items if all game content is free even. I'm not happy if the FTP setup means that more of the "cost" to support the game goes on those of us willing to do so.
Free to play should mean just that, the game is totally free to play. However you want to, as much as you want to, with all content available. Selling cosmetic items (not character slots, classes, equipment etc) should be the only thing available in a cash shop. We already know character slots are going to be limited (Even if we don't know the current limit) and sold. With the founders pack you get 5 chars which is enough for 1 char of each class at launch...which seems like enough to me right now.
If you follow the normal subscription cost of a game, most games give at least 2 years of full content play for $200. That would include all classes, and plenty of char slots to play them all in.
$60 from the looks of things is not currently enough to allow players to experience all the content in the game at launch.
Why?
Unless they change the # of char slots, you only get 2 base (+1 for the $60 pack), which is 3 character slots total. There will be 5 classes at launch (and supposedly more very soon after launch). So basically for $60 you still are not getting the full game (the ability to play all 5 classes).
I guess, in theory, you could just make another account and play the other classes on that account (and therefore have more character slots). If that is the case though, doesn't it make sense to start characters off with enough character slots to play all of the classes initially (5 in this case) and then just charge for new classes AND a new character slot together when they are released (I guess you could charge for them seperately in case some players don't want to play certain classes).
Anyway, even for $60 I think you should have the ability to play all the initial content in the game, including all the classes on one account. For $200, you should have the base 5 slots + 3 extra (For future classes that are released or different builds of the same class right now) and instead of things like respec points etc, a free class token or something to grab a new class in the future.
Those are account options people are going to want. If you can't or don't want to give Zen for founders packs, then it just makes sense to add items to the packs that are going to be worth the money being paid now, and that most people will want.
I get the whole "You can play the whole game as any 2 classes so it's Free to Play), that is great. I just don't get the "You can pay $60 for the game and still not be able to play all the classes at launch".
Where I draw the line between free2play and pay2win is when it comes to power.
Exp boosts, costumes, unique looking armor/weapon models, minipets, particle effects, toys, character re-customization, respecs, name changes, character slots. All that stuff is fine for the microtransaction store as long as it has no stat/power boost attached to it.
Mounts are fine as long as they're not faster than normal mounts.
Armor/weapons with stats on them are not okay, because if someone hasn't had an equivalent weapon drop, they can become more powerful by cash.
Paying for new classes/races I would say is not okay, because they can easily be more powerful than the free ones. That's a hard thing to balance and class/race influences so much of your gameplay, everyone should be equal.
Basically the line has to be drawn so that spending cash cannot make your character inherently more powerful than the character of someone who doesn't pay cash. Guild Wars 2 has a good example of how to make a microtransaction store without any inherent power available for purchase.
Also, I think Cryptic needs to avoid the artificial gating of the Astral Diamonds system. Having a daily cap means gating the ability for people to use the ADs, which can quickly lead to using that gate as an incentive to pay cash. ie. You can grind 100 days to get this item, or have it now for 24.99. That's not really acceptable to me. You need to have a clear divide between what cash can buy and what in-game currencies can buy.
I'm not opposed to people buying Zen and trading it for ADs or Gold, but I'm opposed to them artificially skewing the market so that the alternative to spending cash is inordinate amounts of daily grinding.
In short, nothing from the shop should be better stats-wise than what I get in-game, and what I get in-game shouldn't be artificially gated to convince me to pay cash to skip that gate.
Comments
Actually there might be competition on the economy if you are playing the game for more than just casual beat-them-up. And it has been clear that this game is not full RP either.
I just hope they make these things more clear in the future so that we know what to expect from the game economy. If they are going to make "the next big MMORPG" they really need to think these things through so well that the player does not get bored or frustrated on the system.
Yeah but the question is will we be able to grind dungeons/raids etc for the gear or are we going to have to refine our astral diamonds then wait another day to refine again just to buy a single piece of gear, then wait another 2 days (if not more) to buy another piece of gear, because that is exactly how STO works. None of the gear you actually get from running STFs (dungeons/raids) compare to the rep stuff you have to buy with the dilithium whose acquisition is time restricted via the daily refining limit.
In game quests or game money can buy u a mount with 50% speed increase. "Hey, u have a mount right??" Cash shop offers a variety of mounts from 50%-250% speed increase, with new mounts added periodically to entice the player base to buy the more unique mount, and sell their current mounts. Selling the current mounts allows other players to purchase these "cash shop only" items. It's a revolving door. Those who utilize the cash shop have a proven record of wanting it "FIRST", being the "unique" player in game. Showing off what others can only hope to get one day.
While the cash shop is not exactly intended to be game breaking, those with deep pockets will use them. I am playing a game right now where more than a few individuals have spent over $5000 a year on cash shop items to be the best. (translated directly into purchasing "Zen" with real life money) PWE has them hook, line and sinker.
don't think PWE knows the player base that well? Just look at all the posters running around with new fancy titles for a game that has not been released.
Founder packs is just the start. PWE LOVES PACKS !!!!!
AD are used for several internal things during the beta i found that removing a sigil from armor takes AD, Removing a rune stone takes AD and resting feats took AD. if fact removing 1 level 5 sigil i managed to make via A LOT of trail and error took a major chuck of AD. Buying a second or 3rd companion cost a chuck (100k in beta) assuming more don't drop during adventures and its clear there 2 more slots to unlock at least.
Also remember there are other ways to get refined ADs I found many of the higher level token vendors had a "Chest of ADs" on them for sale for your extra tokens.
In short we as players don't have the full picture yet on AD gain and burn. Till we do we have no way to even guess if there will be a gult of AD on the zen exchange or a shortage. The crafting system is also a major wild card here will combinds take AD? will user made gear blue grade + and worth trying to sell in AH. what are the drop rates of the High level tokens that can be exchanged for chests of AD. How much should the average player playing 2-3 hours a day (IE people who play A LOT but have jobs/school ext) get from the gods and the group events the drop diamonds. I don't know about you but i only got diamonds maybe 1 our of 5 times i prayed and some of them were only like 700 getting 25,000 in 24 hours that way would be impractical unless you don't sleep and don't work/school.
We also don't know what measures cryptic is taking to prevent farming bots. if the game gets invaded by diamond farmers to make ZEN to then resell things could get out of wack really fast.
Lastly how many people will want to convert AD back into zen? The only think i saw in the placeholder Zen shop during the beta that i would buy is bags of holding. Assuming that there is't a way of crafting them or some where later in the game they can be bought for AD/gold. But thats me some people will want to burn AD for a cool looking mount. If the add new classes or races to Zen store that could get interesting. I really hope they don't personally I was kinda annoyed at eq2 F2p when i have to pay $$ to unlock a class that i though looked fun but then changed my mind.
I believe Cryptic Studios was purchased, by Perfect World, from Atari who was going through financial difficulty.
I'l echo what people have said about the astral diamonds here. I don't mind a certain amount of influx of real money into the game through the zen > AD system. I also don't mind playing the game for a two-three weeks to afford something in-game, that people may purchase through the store instantly.
My big concern is the grind aspect of attaining these items, either cosmetic or game-functional. I've played games like EQ2, Aion etc, where daily quests for faction or various tokenage (including PvP points), were the worst sort of grind I've experienced.
I'd actually prefer to run a dungeon 20 times in hope for some loot, rather than receive, say, 10,000 AD a day maximum through various means, just for that 1,000,000 AD item I want. It's boring and ultimately why after 10+ years of mmos, I stopped playing them.
Gah! What (s)he said! Need to plan my summer.
As far as the in-game economy goes, if more people are buying Astral Diamonds the price will go down in the Auction House. If less people are buying them the price will go up. So more paying customers means the price for AD will go down for the free-to-play players.
This is a new system to me so I may be misunderstanding it. The biggest risk all FTP games have is that people won't have any reaosn to want to buy things. This is the birth of pay to win. As much as people want the "pay" items to be purely cosmetic, I just dont' think people will be willing to buy them.
I played effectively as a free to play player during the beta test period. I died a few times ,but I never failed a quest. I came close in one of the foundry missions, but still we managed to succeed. So while the in-store purchable AD aren't cosmetic, they are "nice to haves" in my opinion. People are paying to have nice things sooner that aren't necessary to complete quests.
Now the one exception is PVP. I think it would be beneficial if Cryptic added a "no boosts" option to PVP for their own good. They don't want FTP players to get frustrated that they are slightly disadvantaged to someone buying boosts. The "no boosts" option means a FTP player can ensure they aren't going up against a player that has 10% more power for a long time because they spent $50. I don't understand their PVP model enough to know how paying will tip the balance, but it's something Cryptic should look at. Otherwise they are basically writing off FTP folks that mainly want to play PVP.
Beyond PVP, I see no basis to call this game pay to win. A person is paying to have nice things now, but none of those nice things are necessary to complete quests.
This is both a relief and very scary at the same time :x To hear that AD are required for sooo many things in the game is terrifying given the daily refining limit. On the other hand to hear that there are other ways to gain AD other than just refining is a huge relief. I can only hope that the amount of AD one can potentially farm every day is great enough to cover the things its actually NEEDED for as well as still save up to buy the things we want.
Either way only time will tell I guess as none of us know exactly how the AD system is setup yet or how well it will work in the long run. I just really hope that if they are going to require it for so many things in the game as it sounds like they are that the daily cap on how much you are able to require is very high or more preferablly isn't capped at all.
I think it's safe to assume that we'll see "Baldur's Chest" or some sort of lockbox style mechanic that they have in all PWE games and have introduced into STO and Champs. Most likely you'll have to purchase "Scrolls of Unlocking" or something to open them.
They will also most likely charge for new classes in NW as well as mounts, costumes, etc.
Here's how it will work (going based on STOs current model):
The best items in the game will not be given via drops, like in a normal MMO; they will require you spending either Astral Diamonds or Zen.
Some will only cost Astral Diamonds, say 4-6 days worth of AD grinding per piece. Of course, you may have to spend a few hundred thousand Astral Diamonds to unlock the store first, just so you can see the items.
The very very best items that influence your gameplay the most, will require a special token that you can only get via microtransactions. You'll probably be able to buy the tokens on the auction house because ADs = Zen, or you can just trade your ADs for Zen. Of course, they don't tell you that someone/you had to spend Zen (aka Cash) to get those tokens. If you traded your ADs for Zen, they gloss over the fact that someone had to buy that Zen with Cash. So no matter how you acquire it, Crytpic will have forced someone to pay cash for the item that you get.
Alternatively, you can get some these best items via a lockbox. Lockboxes are gambling. You'll need to acquire a key ($1.25 in the C-store) to open these random treasure chests you'll find popping up in your inventory. You'll want to open them because they contain random loot, and some decent stuff. Of course, you have a chance to win a super coveted item that will make a huge difference in your gameplay, but it's only a 0.5% chance. That means the average cost for one of these is $250 to Cryptic. You may open one (or 200) and only get some mediocre loot you're not interested in, though.
That's the way it's done in STO, at least. The items that influence your gameplay the most require microtransactions, if you want the best version. Perhaps you won't have to spend your cash, but someone will have to spend cash to Cryptic.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I think the monetization system has promise so far. I only hope, like others have said, that there will be a astral diamond sink and enough supply and variety to meet the demand so the economy doesn't crash in-game.
Well, despite you being condescending and insulting for no reason, people have a legitimate concern. If you think the items gotten in STO via microtransactions (ships, for example) aren't better than what you have gotten via questing, you may not have seen the whole game yet. The whole top two tiers of ships are definitively better than the rest (more unique powers, better stats, more gear slots) and all require microtransactions at some point in the game. You can call it speculation if you want, but there's no evidence it will be any different, because they're conveniently leaving facts out.
In fact, it's not really speculation because they point it out in the journal:
Where do you think those "micro-transactable points" (aka Zen) come from? Cryptic certainly won't be just giving away Zen for ADs, they would be giving away money. No, someone is going to have to buy the Zen with cash to trade them to you. It's right there in black-and-white. If nobody buys Zen with Cash to trade, there will be no Zen on the auction house.
So the tagline of "Get Everything You Want by Playing" isn't totally true. I'd call it a lie, but I'm content if you want to call it a misleading half-truth.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
So, 1. Please give us some assurances about EXACTLY what WONT be a pay-to-unlock in the game, and 2. give us an idea of what we'll likely have to spend to unlock the things that ARE pay-to-unlock.
Please and thank you.
You do understand Pay to Play means subscription?
You can't buy ZEN in the Auction House and must exchange it for AD in the Fluctuating rate of exchange in game like STO does with Dilithium and ZEN. Supply and demand will set the rate you can "buy" one for the other.
This is absolutely correct. See above via the exchange readers.
This also is correct. The "best" gear available for your character is potentially available in 5 person only delves at the end of a zone. You can re run them to try and get "all" the treasure drops for your class but timers limit the number of times you can replay one.
This is correct.
The first idea is correct. See above.
PvP earns Glory and Glory earns PvP shop sold equipment. No exploiting this allowed.
The game is based on you must cooperate together just to get the best gear. See my Delve answer above.
The first one. See Delves above.
And fortunately thanks to the failings it cause, Cryptic learned what not to do and will have top items earned through playing as well as the "isn't it worth a little to make it easier or you look better" options in the store. I will personally be passing out the torches and pitchforks from my "bag of pitchfork and torch holding" if they do otherwise.
I heard a rumor that some of the functionality of the Foundry would need to be purchased with currency? Is that true? if not true, please say so.
I very much hope this is true. Unfortunately, at this point I can only go on past history, which is STO. In STO, Cryptic recently moved away from the "dungeon" (STF) gear drop system and is moving toward a faction unlock system where you have to pay hundreds of thousands of the time-currency to unlock and buy the best items. With STO, Cryptic still has the most influential part of your gameplay experience (your ship) require microtransactions for any of the top two tiers/endgame ones.
If a dev can guarantee that we won't have to pay Zen/ADs for classes (the most influential part of your gameplay), that the best gear will not be sold via Zen/ADs, and that things like classes/races won't be put into Lockboxes for Zen gambling, then I will rest easier. Those things are not cosmetic, those are buying gameplay power.
If that's the case, then I will look forward to the game and hope that the NW Cryptic team doesn't end up changing their mind or lying to us like we've seen the STO team do. Though I will say it is hard to hope for that, since the STO team still has top items in the store suggesting that they didn't learn the lesson you suggest.
I would feel better if we had more definitive official Dev response on this topic.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
found here: MMORPG.Com Neverwinter Monitization Article by Jack Emmert
(I was posting this in another thread, when I ran across this one that already has a link to the article -but I'll leave my original content alone with this one little add.)
I quite enjoyed the article - and it's great to see that they are striving to not have anything 'exclusive' to 'paying' customers - I really like that.
It sounds like they hope to make 'paying' more about saving time on grinding, rather than having an exclusive 'for pay' item list. Although that said, for some things, you'd have to have a high level toon, grinding for the runes and enchants - or rare gear, for a leveling toon, as you'd not have enough 'time' to grind for those improvements as you leveled, before you leveled up.
That is one concern of mine, in how they will handle gear improvements in PVP. If they allow PvP at lower levels, then folks willing to 'pay' for the runes, and gear enhancement items, are going to have a significant gear advantage, over those that are 'grinding' for drops.
At Max Level - it goes back to just being a 'time' thing, and that's not really a concern to me - but as you level up, there just won't be enough 'time to grind' the drops needed to upgrade your gear to a point to compete with some one willing to drop a few bucks on gear upgrades. Other than perhaps, if the free player, used an alternate character to grind the gear / companion upgrades - then I suppose that might go back to making 'pay' just a 'faster way' to get where you could by 'play'.
but the keeping up with a 'paying' account just wont be possible (as far as I could tell, watching drop rate etc.) for some one that planned on just using one character. (that character would level up to fast, grinding for gear / companion upgrades.)
Over all though - this game falls well within what I consider 'Tolerable' pay standards. The Dev's certainly seem to be hoping / trusting - that the game will be very accessible to folks for free - and that is encouraging.
My question is does anyone know of any additional information on how they plan to handle PvP and Gear Upgrades?
Will they limit the level that you can upgrade Companion Runes and Gear Enhancements?
Perhaps not allow Companions in PvP? or, turn off the effects of Gear Slot upgrades?
As I mentioned above, at max level, I don't think these things matter, as it's just a matter of whether you put in the time to grind, or pay to save the time on getting the upgrades - but as you level up? That seems pretty slanted towards those willing to put in a few bucks to me.
Has anyone played PVP? Or are there any plans in place to mitigate the strong advantage that 'for pay' customers might have over some one that only wants to play for free?
Thanks,
zWolf -out.
zWolf / Wesgar
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I do not understand this sense of 'entitlement' What on earth makes this guy think that a game company 'owes' him a free game???!!
there are people, getting paid 'Real' Salaries to make and market this game - the 'free' aspect is to attempt to get the game out there to as many people as possible in hopes that many of those that see and play it will be willing to pay for all the work that goes into making it.
How can a guy look at all the work that goes into Star Trek Online, or Neverwinter online, and all the 'free play' that a person 'could get' out of the game with out dropping a dime, and then complain about the point at which the company / drug dealer says;
"ok, you like this stuff? it's fun isn't it! well, It's time to pay the hamsters to keep on powering the wheel you are running on, so it's time for you to pony up some cash."
Grrr - I imagine that the 'things' that he says in his post -are worth looking at, in that the things that he mentions decreased the 'fun' that he was having in game, (at the companies expense of course,) - but it's the 'tone' that he said it in... this 'i'm entitled to free and it better be my way!' tone that sets me on edge.
sigh.
/rant off.
zWolf.
(Edit: - upon reflection, I just wanted to note that I HATE free to play games - I ALWAYS end up spending more on those that I like than on subscription "pay to play" type games. so on a personal note, I would have liked it more if the game was NOT 'free to play' - but, since it IS, if I enjoy playing it, (and I do, very much so,) I feel some what obligated at some point, to kick some of my cash over towards the work that was put into creating such a fun / fine game.)
Also - my retroactive apologies to the poster I quoted - I may have been a bit brash... it happens sometimes. /end edit.
zWolf / Wesgar
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's an MMO, someone somewhere will turn it into a contest even if it's just him/her/it vs. the world.
According to the COO of Cryptic in a presentation about the Foundry last year, absolutely zero elements of the Foundry will be hidden behind paywalls.
The reason being for that is simple, in a paraphrasing of his own words -
The most you will pay for in the Foundry is mission slots. Everything else will be unlocked after a certain level is reached.
That seemed to be a 'random' thing - sometimes I'd get just a few, sometimes I'd get a couple hundred, and other times it would be between 1 and 2K worth.
So, basically, you could 'spin the wheel' 24 times in a day at shrines... it was kind of fun actually. :-) Hopefully as the game progresses, some one will take the time to actually 'track' the random rolls, and we can get a sense for the range of what you 'could' win in a 24 Hour period, if you were to roll once every hour. (sounds like a kind of fun project actually.)
zWolf / Wesgar
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Well despite you flying off the handle, you're also wrong. Nobody (or at least not me) thinks anyone owes them a free game. However, you do realize that they are advertising it as a "free game" right?
The issue here isn't that we're entitled to anything, it's what they're advertising vs. how the implement the "Pay Wall".
Let me give you an example scenario:
For example, what if after launch, they release one of the new classes they're working on, let's say a Ranger class. As you said, though, they need to make money, so they decide to charge $25 to unlock the Ranger class. Now, as they say, nobody has to unlock the Ranger class, but if you really like rangers, you'll consider it. Turns out, this hypothetical Ranger happens to be the best DPS class in the game, making you more powerful than the people who didn't pay for this class. Therefore, anyone who spends this $25 is more powerful by default. Now, you may not have to spend $25 yourself, you can trade in your Astral Diamonds for Zen and get the $25 in Zen that way, but someone else had to pay Cryptic $25 for that Zen. Also, you may have had to pay 2.4 Million ADs to get enough Zen, which takes 100 days because you're capped at refining 24k per day. Cryptic doesn't care because either way they made the $25 when you unlock it. Maybe rangers get groups easier because they are more powerful, so it's easier to do harder raids and dungeons. This means if you haven't paid, you have a harder time getting a group when up against someone who has.
So in this scenario: Cryptic releases a new class (yay!) and it happens to be the best DPS class in the game (cool!), but you have to pay $25 to unlock it. If you do unlock it, you'll be the best at dps and very easily beat out people who didn't buy it. If you want it but don't want to pay cash, you can grind for 100 days to get the ADs enough for it, while still being a lower dps class. Then you just trade your ADs to someone else who did pay $25, so Cryptic still gets their cut. If you pay, you may get more rewards because you get groups easier and defeat content easier.
In that scenario, you are paying to be more powerful. That is a scenario I don't want in games that are free2play, that makes them pay2win. That scenario is how things work in STO right now, that scenario is already in place by part of Cryptic's team.
Is that a scenario you want? It's not one I want. With the awesome replies from Truthseeker it gives me hope that this won't happen, but it makes me wary, and I think Cryptic needs to hear from people like me who are concerned.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
1st, regarding my /Rant at your expense - ya heh, this was one of those posts that when I was finished, I was already all out of 'rage gass' - it had been spent putting the words on paper and I probably shouldn't have hit the 'post' button before 'rewording' my thoughts - the truth is that you bring up Valid points - I actually share some of your viewpoints, well at least I would much prefer to pay for the box version, and pay for Quality user created content and developer made expansions in a store.
In other words, I'd prefer the 'traditional' approach to selling games.
As a matter of fact, when I played this at PAX, I was VERY disheartened to learn that they wanted to go with the 'free to play' monetization plan. Though I had a blast playing it, I actually just put it out of my mind as a game I was even remotely interested in.
I think that the 'Free to Play' title ends up causing a whole bunch of confusion. I mean 'obviously' they aren't going to produce a game like this and offer it for free - and the more that a company 'brags' about how 'free' that their game is, the more resentment that company gets, when it's users run into the areas where the company plans to monetize. So far, the closest 'free to play' game comes remotely close to being 'free' is League of Legends, and even THAT community complains about the fact that it seems that the 'newly released' characters that you can buy, seem to be somewhat OP when they are first released... eventually getting 'nerfs' applied that bring them inline with the rest of the 'normal' heroes.
Anyway - ya, I'm cautiously optimistic on this game, because though it's true that the more that a company 'brags' about how 'free' that their game is the more risk they have of a customer feeling 'cheated' when they see the parts that are 'not so free' or 'almost free' (hah.) It is also true that the more that they brag about it, it seems that the more likely that they are to pay attention to concerns from the community about areas that don't 'feel free'.
That said, I'm curious as to how you'd propose that they monetize the game. Assume that you do want to make money, and the company paying the employee's that you hire to make your game are set on the 'free to play' model because it has proven successful with other products that they make or own. The end goal of course, is turning a profit, you aren't doing this for practice, and you aren't doing it so people can 'play for free' - the 'free' part is just to get the product in front of more eyeballs in hopes of getting more money.
Of course the benefit to the players is that if you come up with a model that your 'cash supplying company' (in this case Perfect world) will sign off on, and your players respond to by paying more, then ALL the players (even those just checking out the 'free sections') will benefit from the fact that you will be able to invest even MORE dollars into providing more content.
How would you do it? (the key here, is that you HAVE to be free to play cause the guy's signing your check, and the checks of those that work for you, demand it - to them, it's the best way to make money on a game. and of course you have to make the fans happy - the more of them that feel that it's 'free enough' the more of them that will look at it, and the more of a chance you will have to get more cash from 'some' of them to fund your team.)
and lastly, I really am sorry I wasn't more tactful in how I said you sounded 'entitled'. I could have phrased it better.
thanks,
zWolf.
zWolf / Wesgar
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You did notice, that the AH in NWO is not CASH. It's micro-transaction points (at least one is). The player will not be getting cash, all the cash goes to the company. And if the AH currency is in micro-transactable points that can be used in the store, then that will definitely be a game limiting feature. So the question that isn't answered is, what currency (or currencies) will be used on the AH. Having more then one type of currency (weather it's gold & cash - see D3) will definitely put a damper on the AH. Lots of unanswered questions still to jump to any conclusions. Another reason why I won't shell out for a founder's pack. Just too much unknown, and after getting burnt by pre-release hype by some of the best game companies of the last 20 years, I will take the "wait & see" route this time.
I for one will be not only playing the game a considerable amount, I am glad I have understanding kids and a wife.
Rigas
"Perfecting the art of being a meatshield since 1998"
Banners of the Light
I believe the AH will run only on Astral Diamonds...I have seen that mentioned multiple times by developers.
I am mostly worried myself about the game content being sold (or needing to be purchased). Like wesgar I prefer the more traditional monthly fee to free to play. I'm ok though with FTP as long as the value for your money is ok and it doesn't end up costing you much more then a monthly account would. I'm a bit worried though about the value we are going to get based on the founders packs.
I purchased the founders pack (btw..why don't I have the hero of the north title?) with the assumption that Astral Diamonds were the currency used to purchase account upgrades. Why? Well I'm primarily coming over from Dungeons and Dragons online. It's the MMO I've played the most in the last 4 years or so (I've played WoW, Champions online (but not since it went FTP) and most recently Knights of the old republic.
When you purchase things with money in previous MMO's (and for me especially in DDO), you get currency to buy account upgrades (Turbine points for DDO). I naturally expected that to be what astral diamonds were....and since I'm more then happy to pay for a good game, I got the founders pack.
Thing is, Astral Diamonds are not upgrade currency. I'm still fine with spending the money I shelled out, since the game is going to be fun (Saw that in the brief time I could play last weekend), but I am a bit
That being said, we did get extra char slots with the packs already, and we don't even know if new classes are going to need to be purchased yet. Hopefully they will not.
I know FTP works well for companies, but it seems hard to balance both allowing everyone to play, and allowing people who pay to get something for it (while needing people to pay to support the game). I'm more then happy to pay $15 a month for any game that is keeping me interested and playing 10+ hours a week. I'll do that for cosmetic items if all game content is free even. I'm not happy if the FTP setup means that more of the "cost" to support the game goes on those of us willing to do so.
Free to play should mean just that, the game is totally free to play. However you want to, as much as you want to, with all content available. Selling cosmetic items (not character slots, classes, equipment etc) should be the only thing available in a cash shop. We already know character slots are going to be limited (Even if we don't know the current limit) and sold. With the founders pack you get 5 chars which is enough for 1 char of each class at launch...which seems like enough to me right now.
If you follow the normal subscription cost of a game, most games give at least 2 years of full content play for $200. That would include all classes, and plenty of char slots to play them all in.
$60 from the looks of things is not currently enough to allow players to experience all the content in the game at launch.
Why?
Unless they change the # of char slots, you only get 2 base (+1 for the $60 pack), which is 3 character slots total. There will be 5 classes at launch (and supposedly more very soon after launch). So basically for $60 you still are not getting the full game (the ability to play all 5 classes).
I guess, in theory, you could just make another account and play the other classes on that account (and therefore have more character slots). If that is the case though, doesn't it make sense to start characters off with enough character slots to play all of the classes initially (5 in this case) and then just charge for new classes AND a new character slot together when they are released (I guess you could charge for them seperately in case some players don't want to play certain classes).
Anyway, even for $60 I think you should have the ability to play all the initial content in the game, including all the classes on one account. For $200, you should have the base 5 slots + 3 extra (For future classes that are released or different builds of the same class right now) and instead of things like respec points etc, a free class token or something to grab a new class in the future.
Those are account options people are going to want. If you can't or don't want to give Zen for founders packs, then it just makes sense to add items to the packs that are going to be worth the money being paid now, and that most people will want.
I get the whole "You can play the whole game as any 2 classes so it's Free to Play), that is great. I just don't get the "You can pay $60 for the game and still not be able to play all the classes at launch".
Where I draw the line between free2play and pay2win is when it comes to power.
Exp boosts, costumes, unique looking armor/weapon models, minipets, particle effects, toys, character re-customization, respecs, name changes, character slots. All that stuff is fine for the microtransaction store as long as it has no stat/power boost attached to it.
Mounts are fine as long as they're not faster than normal mounts.
Armor/weapons with stats on them are not okay, because if someone hasn't had an equivalent weapon drop, they can become more powerful by cash.
Paying for new classes/races I would say is not okay, because they can easily be more powerful than the free ones. That's a hard thing to balance and class/race influences so much of your gameplay, everyone should be equal.
Basically the line has to be drawn so that spending cash cannot make your character inherently more powerful than the character of someone who doesn't pay cash. Guild Wars 2 has a good example of how to make a microtransaction store without any inherent power available for purchase.
Also, I think Cryptic needs to avoid the artificial gating of the Astral Diamonds system. Having a daily cap means gating the ability for people to use the ADs, which can quickly lead to using that gate as an incentive to pay cash. ie. You can grind 100 days to get this item, or have it now for 24.99. That's not really acceptable to me. You need to have a clear divide between what cash can buy and what in-game currencies can buy.
I'm not opposed to people buying Zen and trading it for ADs or Gold, but I'm opposed to them artificially skewing the market so that the alternative to spending cash is inordinate amounts of daily grinding.
In short, nothing from the shop should be better stats-wise than what I get in-game, and what I get in-game shouldn't be artificially gated to convince me to pay cash to skip that gate.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.