I have been reading this thread and it seems to me that people can really get carried away with expectations whenever the word "free" is included in the marketing of a product. Nothing is really "free" it is marketing to get you to play a game that is all. You are spending your time, which is easily converted into currency, and the company benefits by having higher server populations making the game more attractive and generating more buzz. I think that folks have to remember that marketing is a way to target your product to the people most likely to want/need it. This is not a free game; it is "free-to-play” and that marketing tag line is printing a lot of money these days." I personally think that this is one of the biggest shifts in marketing and revenue generation for the gaming industry since its inception. I also think that all companies will eventually move to this model as it removes one of the biggest perception barriers for gaining new players ($$$) and gives the company a way to constantly add revenue generating content. The logic behind this is simple, "Why charge $60 for a game once when if you can charge infinitely over the life of the product with minimal cost?"
From a business perspective one of the high-leverage products in the D&D world are classes. D&D version 3.0/3.5 created a huge amount of classes which a business could sell based on demand. Just like how Cryptic is leveraging the "Drow" popularity thanks to R.A. Salvatore's legendary tales to marquee their flagship founder package. Cryptic needs to generate revenue and they are going to use whatever means the IP offers them to accomplish this goal. Founder’s packs are a great form of crowd sourcing but it is important to note that this should be compared more to an investment than a purchase. The player is absorbing a lot of up front risk as the product is not even completed yet and instead of using actually examples and testimonials from people playing a finished product you are investing based on marketing buzz, developer and publisher reputation/product history, and value-added, “unique,” inducements from the company. People playing in beta are likely bound by a NDA (non-disclosure agreement) so they cannot actually comment on the quality of the game at this point.
I am excited about this game and I think that Cryptic/PWE know how to develop, design, and maintain a fun, balanced, enjoyable game. The actual value of these Founders packages will only be determined by the future success of the game itself which no one knows at this point.
standard fare in asian games for many years now. starting off free to play is a winning strategy for everybody and this game is going to be -awesome-
also no matter how much anyone could even begin to complain about "free to play" could mean "pay 2 win", remember that all the sub games have been pay to win also, i sold $30,000 worth of everquest items on ebay when i was 18 and i think the industry has grown a bit since then. you think just because theres subs in wow people dont pay to have dungeons run for them? to buy cash? its a billion dollar industry lol subs dont stop pay to win; this is life and welcome to it
All he says is that the "Foundry will be free to access" in the context of saying it's a free to play game. (It's at the very end of that video.) I am pretty sure that he is not definitively saying that all aspects of the foundry are free. is there maybe more that I have not seen in some other place?
1. This is a 'free-to-play' game, not a free game, i.e. you can play free, but you don't get the entire game for free. The dev angle is that you can 'buy' everything by spending your time (grinding) and going the currency mining/exchange route.
Personally, I just want to know what I'm going to be in for, i.e. what will unlocking another 3 character slots cost me if I don't buy the Hero of the North founder's pack, what will I have to pay for future locked content, especially if they plan to make classes and races payed for content, which the drow renegade in the HotN pack suggests they might?
2. It is unrealistic to expect everything for nothing (not just something for nothing). However, the many vague (intentionally?) assertions or telling silences on the part of the devs is concerning, i.e. will absolutely no foundry content be in-store, will future races and classes have to purchased, will attribute boosting items be sold in-store? There are already amulet's of protection and mwk weaps in the founder packs.
All this stuff is information the pundits should have by now. I'm not talking specifics of what will be released and when, I'm talking the purchasing mechanisms and content categorisations (what is pay-to-unlock and what is free content). The devs should release a black and white statement in this regards (not vague references in interviews, etc.) to allay the concerns of there future customer base.
1. This is a 'free-to-play' game, not a free game, i.e. you can play free, but you don't get the entire game for free. The dev angle is that you can 'buy' everything by spending your time (grinding) and going the currency mining/exchange route.
Personally, I just want to know what I'm going to be in for, i.e. what will unlocking another 3 character slots cost me if I don't buy the Hero of the North founder's pack, what will I have to pay for future locked content, especially if they plan to make classes and races payed for content, which the drow renegade in the HotN pack suggests they might?
Also /agree. Information is a huge marketing source. I definitely cannot blame someone for wanting to see the stuff they wish to know about with time enough to plan, budget, and see in their hearts if they really want the stuff.
2. It is unrealistic to expect everything for nothing (not just something for nothing). However, the many vague (intentionally?) assertions or telling silences on the part of the devs is concerning, i.e. will absolutely no foundry content be in-store, will future races and classes have to purchased, will attribute boosting items be sold in-store? There are already amulet's of protection and mwk weaps in the founder packs.
Definitely agree, and I have to add that while I do support stat-adding items in the store for helping folks level, etc., I do believe and support that the REAL good stuff should always be earned by everyone. Wallet or no, and even though I have the money to spend, I'd rather earn the good end-game gear. I buy store items to support game development and the future of the game, and to get some cool vanity stuff to show off as a result, but nothing brings better pleasure than enduring a challenging series of quests, an epic quest or even raiding to get that awesome piece, so I can put it on and HONESTLY say "I earned this with skill and companionship! It wasn't bought."
All this stuff is information the pundits should have by now. I'm not talking specifics of what will be released and when, I'm talking the purchasing mechanisms and content categorisations (what is pay-to-unlock and what is free content). The devs should release a black and white statement in this regards (not vague references in interviews, etc.) to allay the concerns of there future customer base.
/agree. Sometimes using mystery brings intrigue to tease for an upcoming release, but Neverwinter has now Beta'd. Tons of folks now have a grasp and have had the pleasure of experiencing it. Now that the light is let in, it's time to fill those shadows with some specifics as to what to expect for z-store marketing. I agree with not giving away item specifics, but for those who are not already accustomed to STO, a good publication of z-store expectations might be in order. I never gave this a thought before reading your post because I already have experienced STO's store, and know for a fact that Neverwinter will carry through on a similar level.
All he says is that the "Foundry will be free to access" in the context of saying it's a free to play game. (It's at the very end of that video.) I am pretty sure that he is not definitively saying that all aspects of the foundry are free. is there maybe more that I have not seen in some other place?
If they do it like they did STO, which is very likely, then every aspect of the foundry will be free. I have worked with the foundry in STO, and the foundry in Neverwinter has more features but no hidden charges. I have never had to pay a dime to develop adventures in Cryptic's foundry system. I am confident it will be the same in Neverwinter.
I purchased the founders pack (btw..why don't I have the hero of the north title?)...
This one is kinda 'hidden' - Basically you have to set this your self, Near the top of the page, (but not the actual top section,) you will see the area that is related to the forums - just above the line that shows you what forum you are in, there is a row of links - one of them says:
User CP
click that, (user control panel) link.
Once in side on the left, you will see some links, look for the one under:
'My account'
that says:
"Permission Groups"
in that area, you will be able to select, your 'group' that you want to be associated, with, and the lable / title that goes with it.
i.e. Hero of the North.
Good luck!
-zWolf
Thanks,
zWolf / Wesgar
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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bonbruteMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
As we still are waiting for clarification from the developers about the economy of the game I would like to ask your opinion about following:
would it be even possible to run a free-to-play game with only cosmetic purchases on "real money store"?
As we still are waiting for clarification from the developers about the economy of the game I would like to ask your opinion about following:
would it be even possible to run a free-to-play game with only cosmetic purchases on "real money store"?
Sure it would. While GW2 requires an initial purchase, it has a perfect model for cosmetic only cash shop. There's plenty of games which are making money while not allowing people to buy power.
Dota 2 isn't even an MMO and they are making millions off of their cosmetic store.
Sure it would. While GW2 requires an initial purchase, it has a perfect model for cosmetic only cash shop. There's plenty of games which are making money while not allowing people to buy power.
Dota 2 isn't even an MMO and they are making millions off of their cosmetic store.
I myself have played Dota2, LoL and other games that has the "vanity shop". But the games usually are much lighter and don't have such high upkeep as MMO:s do, least I think so.
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wesgarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
...would it be even possible to run a free-to-play game with only cosmetic purchases on "real money store"?
Possible? you bet! but not at the quality standards that I saw in NeverWinter - I mean, you 'could' make a game, and just have a 'pay pal' link and ask for donations if you liked it. (all shareware style from the olden-days,) but - the thing is, the guy's with the budget strings, definitely want as large a return on their investment as possible.
Dev's want to make a good game, investors want to capitalize on the 'good game' and get as much return on their investment as they can - so, with that in mind, it's like a 'math game' where you determine, how far you can 'push' the "Get more Money" envelope before you start losing people.
For example, earlier in the thread - you had a guy list a bunch of things that he didn't want them to sell i.e. character classes, high end gear etc.
with more and more data of users of 'free games' predictions can start to be made about if that guy (and a bunch like him of course,) would actually stop playing (and potentially paying,) if they offered classes for sale, and high end gear for sale.
but how about they offer classes, but NOT high end gear? would they have a better chance of keeping him and his like minded buddies? probably so.
they will look for that 'sweet' spot - where you lose least amount of potential customers, and get the biggest return on investment.
so,a AAA game, that has ONLY cosmetic items for sale in the cash shop, you'd probably have a ton of people playing, but not as much revenue as you could get if you also sold faster mounts, classes and gear. So, the company makes the call to sell things other than just cosmetic upgrades, sure you lose some of the folks, but if you were losing the people that weren't going to pay anything (or much) anyway - it may not be as big as a loss. (though you would lose their 'word of mouth' power which is pretty big in the 'free to play' arena.)
Of course they probably have fancy math guy's to work out the formula that says 'hey if we really had 'WoW' numbers playing our game - then we really COULD only sell cosmetic items because there would be so many people buying them.
However - we are still fairly early in this evolution of how we buy and sell games - and your going to find companies playing their cards fairly close to their chest. I doubt they are going to be giving a bunch of demographics and statistics away - so what you end up with is a company like Perfect World, relying on the statistics that they have from their other games.
Anyway, I'm making this really long answer, just to say that sure, in 'theory' a game could be made, and a person 'could' only sell cosmetic items - but bottom line, at some base level, the reason that games are commercially produced, it to turn a profit - so, until it can be proved that you would make MORE money selling only cosmetic items - it is very doubtful that anyone will take that route. And as we all know - even subscription based games have there 'black market' e-bay buyers and sellers where a whole bunch of money is being moved around by people getting items that make them more powerful in game. What company wouldn't be tempted to reach into that pile of gold flowing around and try to snag a hand full or two of that?
Thanks for letting me theory craft some.
zWolf / Wesgar -out.
Thanks,
zWolf / Wesgar
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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wesgarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
While GW2 requires an initial purchase, it has a perfect model for cosmetic only cash shop.
I think it is a pretty fair stretch to claim that GW2 is a 'cosmetic only cash shop' when there is an 'money for gold' exchange system set up right in the main shop screen - add to that all the 'convenience' items like 'repair now' tokens or 'summon banker' and lets not forget about the buff's (including XP buff's,) and I really don't see how you think it's cosmetic only.
I certainly think that it is a VERY well done shop - and you certainly don't feel to much like there is any kind of a 'pay to win' vibe going on - but to claim that it is 'cosmetic only' ?? there is just to much proof against such a thing my gaming brother.
I think it is a pretty fair stretch to claim that GW2 is a 'cosmetic only cash shop' when there is an 'money for gold' exchange system set up right in the main shop screen - add to that all the 'convenience' items like 'repair now' tokens or 'summon banker' and lets not forget about the buff's (including XP buff's,) and I really don't see how you think it's cosmetic only.
I certainly think that it is a VERY well done shop - and you certainly don't feel to much like there is any kind of a 'pay to win' vibe going on - but to claim that it is 'cosmetic only' ?? there is just to much proof against such a thing my gaming brother.
Except that none of those things make you more powerful, they don't give you any real advantage over a player not spending the money. Things like temporary buffs are just that, temporary. An xp boost saves you playing time to help you catch up with your friends, and it only makes a difference during leveling, which is completely different from endgame. At the end of the day, the person who got the buff doesn't have anything that isn't available to anyone else. Repair tokens or banker tokens don't make your character more powerful, they simply add the convenience of not having to run somewhere. You don't get any stat buffs from them.
I also hope you don't think the gold exchange system in GW2 is bad, because NW has a worse system. You see, you can only ever get 24k ADs (refined) per day, if you want more than that, you have to pay cash. You also can't trade ADs for gold. At least in GW2 you can just farm more gold to get the gems you want, there's no hard cap. With the NW system, they artificially cap you to convince you to spend more cash.
But hey, if all you care about is profit, you can certainly go down that route. Some developers care about making a quality game experience, but some only care about money. If you only care about money you can sell power items in your shop and join the long list of MMOs in the asian market that nobody plays because buying power makes the game lame.
You will find very quickly that if the game doesn't have an even footing for all players, your game will be seen as a failure. That type of game makes a player's wallet matter, not a player's skill or effort. Look at CO and STO; they both make a profit, but they are seen as failures by the MMO community at large.
If the amount of money you spend on the game affects how powerful you are, the game is pay2win and will be seen as a failure, a cash grab, a game where the developers don't care about the game or the players, only money.
GW2's cash shop problem is endemic to the form. Within a month of hitting max level you will have a fully tricked out character. The entire end game is designed around acquiring a Legendary Weapon. Legendary Weapons are MASSIVE grinds that take a ton of gold. Gold is most easily acquired through the cash shop. Worst of all, you need a "precursor item" which is such a rare drop that there are only a handful in the world at a time and they go for the equivalent of 3-4 months of gold grinding. People are given this huge incentive to buy gold in order to speed up the process.
Designing the game to make people buy gold makes the game kind of suck.
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spcmooseMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited February 2013
I personally don't mind if Classes/Races are in the cash shop. I will play Humans 9/10 times because thats the race I like cosmetically. As far as the "Drow" being founder only. I have seen/heard interviews saying that the Renegade backstory is unique but the race itself will be available later.
i think all pwe games have the trade in-game currency to other players who buy zen.this is kinda nice until the sever gets flooded with gold or whatever currency might be without proper gold sinks.
i personally quit a game i enjoyed for over three years because of gambling system of refining or enchanting if you will of gear.the farming of gear was fine,but you had have cash shop items to refine it,or risk breaking gear you farmed for over six months.i would farm for weeks getting enough gold get the items from cash to just watch my refine fail repeatedly.i just grew tired of it all and quit.i really don't know much about how this game works,but if it has a refine system,then yes,you will be able buy +9 weapons with real money.
overall,i think the system is ok,and pwe never usually limits parts of game to people who do not pay any real money.but i have come to my own decision to only play their new games at two years at most,and then just move on to the next game.
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wesgarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Regarding the 'cosmetic only items' in the GW2 shop claim that was made earlier:
Except that none of those things make you more powerful, they don't give you any real advantage over a player not spending the money.
First, I disagree, advantages ARE given over players that don't spend money in that it takes less time up to do things or 'get' things - think of time as a currency and you will see it more clearly.
Secondly, the base problem here is that you are mis-defining 'cosmetic' Cosmetic has to do with the 'look' of a thing - there a whole bunch of things offered on the shop that have nothing to do with cosmetics.
You said, that the shop is 'only cosmetic items' and that just is NOT true. I think you mean that it isn't 'pay to win' you could make a much stronger argument to support that argument or at least the argument that it is 'less' pay to win than other games of this nature - but if you are trying to say that the only things sold, are 'cosmetic' items, that just shows a basic miss understanding of the term 'cosmetic'.
here is a link to the dictionary definition of the word:
here are the sections from that page that apply best to the term 'cosmetic' as used in your context when referring to the game:
2.cosmetics, superficial measures to make something appear better, more attractive, or more impressive: The budget committee opted for cosmetics instead of a serious urban renewal plan.
adjective3.serving to beautify; imparting or improving beauty, especially of the face.
4.
used or done superficially to make something look better, more attractive,or more impressive: Alterations in the concert hall were only cosmetic and didnothing to improve the acoustics.
You are just not using the correct word. Your arguments are about how 'not' play to win that the game is - and you have good points. But to claim that all of the items that you can buy for cash only affect the 'look' of things, just is not true.
I just want to make sure that there is no confusion - the in game shop is NOT 'cosmetic items only' there ARE (or will be,) other convenience items for sale there - and there will obviously be differences in opinion about how 'play to win' those items make the game or not - however, whether it is 'cosmetic only' or not - is NOT a matter of opinion - you are incorrect in your statement that the items offered are 'only' cosmetic which means having to do with the 'look' of a thing. there are other 'non cosmetic' (things that don't have to do with how something looks,) offered in the shop.
hopefully that clears up the 'is it cosmetic only' or not question. There are definitely more than only cosmetic items offered.
Regarding the 'cosmetic only items' in the GW2 shop claim that was made earlier:
Sorry, but you are arguing semantics and either not comprehending or ignoring the issue.
Does accessing a bank or repairing your armor make you more powerful than the other person? No.
Does it let you access any content that someone else can't? No.
Does buying armor, weapons, classes, or races make you more powerful than someone who hasn't bought those items if everything else is equal? Yes
Does it let you access content that the other person can't? Probably.
What you are talking about is having a 2-tier system for players. Those who spend cash to get the best items handed to them, and those who don't get the best items despite earning all their items for gameplay. That's a terrible system.
What's really at stake here is the whole idea of risk vs. reward, and reward for effort/gameplay. MMOs are as much about getting the reward for gameplay as they are about the journey. Why would people take the risk or spend time on the gameplay if they can just buy the item in the shop?
Sorry, but you are arguing semantics and either not comprehending or ignoring the issue.
Does accessing a bank or repairing your armor make you more powerful than the other person? No.
Does it let you access any content that someone else can't? No.
Does buying armor, weapons, classes, or races make you more powerful than someone who hasn't bought those items if everything else is equal? Yes
Does it let you access content that the other person can't? Probably.
What you are talking about is having a 2-tier system for players. Those who spend cash to get the best items handed to them, and those who don't get the best items despite earning all their items for gameplay. That's a terrible system.
What's really at stake here is the whole idea of risk vs. reward, and reward for effort/gameplay. MMOs are as much about getting the reward for gameplay as they are about the journey. Why would people take the risk or spend time on the gameplay if they can just buy the item in the shop?
That would kill this game.
I think you are missing the point and ignoring the issue:
ANY game is subject to the "unequal footing" youre talking about on the grounds that there is Always a very easy and accessible way to buy as much cash and items from the game as you want!
whether its from the company directly or you go to a third party website that runs a professional bot/farming business who is going to sell you those items or powerlevel your character and trick it out with the best BoP items in the game. if you have money to spend, you can have the best of the best available in ANY game.
what does this have to do with neverwinter?? sounds like you have a problem with capitalism and the internet???
I think you are missing the point and ignoring the issue:
ANY game is subject to the "unequal footing" youre talking about on the grounds that there is Always a very easy and accessible way to buy as much cash and items from the game as you want!
whether its from the company directly or you go to a third party website that runs a professional bot/farming business who is going to sell you those items or powerlevel your character and trick it out with the best BoP items in the game. if you have money to spend, you can have the best of the best available in ANY game.
what does this have to do with neverwinter?? sounds like you have a problem with capitalism and the internet???
Wow. That's just ridiculous.
You do realize that developers universally hate third party sellers for this reason, right? Most players will also agree it ruins gameplay for everyone. That's why games which sell items/power are generally seen as failures.
nemesis788450Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
i dont really understand why a company after failure after failure in doing so will come up with yet another system on how to pull money out of the players pockets "without" them noticing
why not charge for anything the playes is okay with and instead use again lockboxes and the such that players hate and could cause the game to fail and the company due to its allready bad rep with it...
why not instead, no lockboxes, but charge for additional classes, races, character spots, consumables, skins, companions, pets, houses, titles etc etc etc...most players will not have an issue with that and probably spend a lot of cash on it...
why not charge for anything the playes is okay with and instead use again lockboxes and the such that players hate and could cause the game to fail and the company due to its allready bad rep with it...
Where's your evidence that using lockboxes cause a game to fail? Or that in general players hate them. By all accounts STO is successful game with a fairly large player base that continues to grow, which uses lockboxes. Champions Online also uses lockboxes and while not as popular as it once was(as I understand it), I wouldn't say a game as old at it still going is a failure.
All he says is that the "Foundry will be free to access" in the context of saying it's a free to play game. (It's at the very end of that video.) I am pretty sure that he is not definitively saying that all aspects of the foundry are free. is there maybe more that I have not seen in some other place?
Specifically at 38 minutes and 52 Seconds. He even goes on to explain why.
In fact there's a little box down the side which has all the slides including one called "How do you Monetize Authors?" which takes you too the slide.
Wow that is fantastic. Thank you. I had never seen that presentation. I highly recommend it. It's about an hour long with questions but it is incredibly interesting if you intend to make content with the Foundry. He does seem adamant about never making authors pay for parts of the Foundry.
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wesgarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
Sorry, but you are arguing semantics and either not comprehending or ignoring the issue.
Yes, Tachyonharmonic, Semantics is EXACTLY what I am arguing, I actually agree with almost every thing that you are saying.
I just wanted to point out, to help your other wise very articulate arguments, that Guild Wars 2 is not a 'cosmetic' shop - there are such things, and Guild Wars 2 is not that thing.
I actually agree with most every thing your saying, you just slipped up and said 'cosmetic' shop when I think you meant that Guild Wars 2 is pretty good about not being a 'Pay 2 Win' shop.
That said - I want to play devils advocate. for one second -over the weekend, I just hit Level 80 in Guild Wars 2 - I went to the shop bought some Gems - then converted them into Gold. I spent about 30 bucks or so.
I then bought a bunch of materials on the auction house for gold. I sent those materials over to a Guild Mate, who changed the 45 Globs of Ectoplasm, and the 45 Vials of super hooty blood or what ever, into some pretty darn effective armor. I also bought 6 superior Sigls of the Dolyak, and 3 things to put in my weapons that make them hit harder.
All in all, in one day, I went from a 'green behind the ears' level 80 - to a fairly well geared level 80 that can actually hold his own in World vs World matches.
All I'm pointing out, is that though Guild Wars 2 is a pretty good model even there, for some one to get the 45 Globs of Ectoplasm, and the 45 Vials of Blood, it would have taken a long long time. Instead, I was able to plunk down a few bucks and buy them legitimately from the system that NC soft has.
Though that might be fine for many people, there are some that would not think that very 'fair' to be able to just 'buy power' with cash like that - with out having 'earned it' via time spent in game.
So, even a great, fairly well received game like Guild Wars 2, may have it's detractors - all in all, we are both saying that it is a slippery slope offering things in a shop - so far, it certainly looks like the makers of NeverWinter Online are aware of that, and are at least making indications that they will try to be careful not to totally ruin the game with things that they offer in game.
but yes - as to cosmetic - I really was just wanting to make sure to clarify the semantics of that - it hung me up, it might hang others up - I know it seems like nit picking - but honestly, a cosmetic only shop that really worked and was successful ? that's the holy grail! I think I was so picky because I'd really like to see something like that work... League of Legends was what I hung my hopes on for a long time - but the gaming community there claims that the 'newly released for cash only' classes are usually a bit over powered, and out of balance with the rest of the game for the first few weeks - eventually they get back in line - but there is enough skepticism built up around the perceived grab for money - that I'm forced to look else where for a 'cosmetic only' shop that is financially successful.
That is why I was so picky about making sure that no one thinks that Guild Wars 'is' that elusive 'cosmetic shop' monitization model that so far hasn't proven to be successful. - I mean even in my case this last weekend - no way would I have spent $35 on something that just 'looked better'. The fact that the money I spent on gear made me more powerful in my game play, and allowed me to save time, to skip some content as I work for even better gear is what got me to spend the dollars - in effect, I am part of the 'pay to win' problem - it's a balance though, cause I'm right in there - if a game feels 'too' money grabby - I'm outta there.
ok, thanks. and ya, I was being picky about the terminology. but I have my reasons.
Thanks,
zWolf / Wesgar
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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true2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 12Arc User
Where's your evidence that using lockboxes cause a game to fail? Or that in general players hate them. By all accounts STO is successful game with a fairly large player base that continues to grow, which uses lockboxes. Champions Online also uses lockboxes and while not as popular as it once was(as I understand it), I wouldn't say a game as old at it still going is a failure.
Also remember you will be able to get free lockbox keys. its on the list of things you can buy with your praying coins. among other things
is it me or did everyone fall and bump thier heads wtf is this 199$ founder pack bs i HAMSTER my pants when i saw how much that was u can go buy a console or cheap laptop at that price have fun letting pwi screw u lmao
Comments
I have been reading this thread and it seems to me that people can really get carried away with expectations whenever the word "free" is included in the marketing of a product. Nothing is really "free" it is marketing to get you to play a game that is all. You are spending your time, which is easily converted into currency, and the company benefits by having higher server populations making the game more attractive and generating more buzz. I think that folks have to remember that marketing is a way to target your product to the people most likely to want/need it. This is not a free game; it is "free-to-play” and that marketing tag line is printing a lot of money these days." I personally think that this is one of the biggest shifts in marketing and revenue generation for the gaming industry since its inception. I also think that all companies will eventually move to this model as it removes one of the biggest perception barriers for gaining new players ($$$) and gives the company a way to constantly add revenue generating content. The logic behind this is simple, "Why charge $60 for a game once when if you can charge infinitely over the life of the product with minimal cost?"
From a business perspective one of the high-leverage products in the D&D world are classes. D&D version 3.0/3.5 created a huge amount of classes which a business could sell based on demand. Just like how Cryptic is leveraging the "Drow" popularity thanks to R.A. Salvatore's legendary tales to marquee their flagship founder package. Cryptic needs to generate revenue and they are going to use whatever means the IP offers them to accomplish this goal. Founder’s packs are a great form of crowd sourcing but it is important to note that this should be compared more to an investment than a purchase. The player is absorbing a lot of up front risk as the product is not even completed yet and instead of using actually examples and testimonials from people playing a finished product you are investing based on marketing buzz, developer and publisher reputation/product history, and value-added, “unique,” inducements from the company. People playing in beta are likely bound by a NDA (non-disclosure agreement) so they cannot actually comment on the quality of the game at this point.
I am excited about this game and I think that Cryptic/PWE know how to develop, design, and maintain a fun, balanced, enjoyable game. The actual value of these Founders packages will only be determined by the future success of the game itself which no one knows at this point.
also no matter how much anyone could even begin to complain about "free to play" could mean "pay 2 win", remember that all the sub games have been pay to win also, i sold $30,000 worth of everquest items on ebay when i was 18 and i think the industry has grown a bit since then. you think just because theres subs in wow people dont pay to have dungeons run for them? to buy cash? its a billion dollar industry lol subs dont stop pay to win; this is life and welcome to it
Thank you very much for your reply.
Was this the presentation you are talking about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhpYM8GDMIE
All he says is that the "Foundry will be free to access" in the context of saying it's a free to play game. (It's at the very end of that video.) I am pretty sure that he is not definitively saying that all aspects of the foundry are free. is there maybe more that I have not seen in some other place?
1. This is a 'free-to-play' game, not a free game, i.e. you can play free, but you don't get the entire game for free. The dev angle is that you can 'buy' everything by spending your time (grinding) and going the currency mining/exchange route.
Personally, I just want to know what I'm going to be in for, i.e. what will unlocking another 3 character slots cost me if I don't buy the Hero of the North founder's pack, what will I have to pay for future locked content, especially if they plan to make classes and races payed for content, which the drow renegade in the HotN pack suggests they might?
2. It is unrealistic to expect everything for nothing (not just something for nothing). However, the many vague (intentionally?) assertions or telling silences on the part of the devs is concerning, i.e. will absolutely no foundry content be in-store, will future races and classes have to purchased, will attribute boosting items be sold in-store? There are already amulet's of protection and mwk weaps in the founder packs.
All this stuff is information the pundits should have by now. I'm not talking specifics of what will be released and when, I'm talking the purchasing mechanisms and content categorisations (what is pay-to-unlock and what is free content). The devs should release a black and white statement in this regards (not vague references in interviews, etc.) to allay the concerns of there future customer base.
/agree
Also /agree. Information is a huge marketing source. I definitely cannot blame someone for wanting to see the stuff they wish to know about with time enough to plan, budget, and see in their hearts if they really want the stuff.
Definitely agree, and I have to add that while I do support stat-adding items in the store for helping folks level, etc., I do believe and support that the REAL good stuff should always be earned by everyone. Wallet or no, and even though I have the money to spend, I'd rather earn the good end-game gear. I buy store items to support game development and the future of the game, and to get some cool vanity stuff to show off as a result, but nothing brings better pleasure than enduring a challenging series of quests, an epic quest or even raiding to get that awesome piece, so I can put it on and HONESTLY say "I earned this with skill and companionship! It wasn't bought."
/agree. Sometimes using mystery brings intrigue to tease for an upcoming release, but Neverwinter has now Beta'd. Tons of folks now have a grasp and have had the pleasure of experiencing it. Now that the light is let in, it's time to fill those shadows with some specifics as to what to expect for z-store marketing. I agree with not giving away item specifics, but for those who are not already accustomed to STO, a good publication of z-store expectations might be in order. I never gave this a thought before reading your post because I already have experienced STO's store, and know for a fact that Neverwinter will carry through on a similar level.
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If they do it like they did STO, which is very likely, then every aspect of the foundry will be free. I have worked with the foundry in STO, and the foundry in Neverwinter has more features but no hidden charges. I have never had to pay a dime to develop adventures in Cryptic's foundry system. I am confident it will be the same in Neverwinter.
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This one is kinda 'hidden' - Basically you have to set this your self, Near the top of the page, (but not the actual top section,) you will see the area that is related to the forums - just above the line that shows you what forum you are in, there is a row of links - one of them says:
User CP
click that, (user control panel) link.
Once in side on the left, you will see some links, look for the one under:
'My account'
that says:
"Permission Groups"
in that area, you will be able to select, your 'group' that you want to be associated, with, and the lable / title that goes with it.
i.e. Hero of the North.
Good luck!
-zWolf
zWolf / Wesgar
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would it be even possible to run a free-to-play game with only cosmetic purchases on "real money store"?
Sure it would. While GW2 requires an initial purchase, it has a perfect model for cosmetic only cash shop. There's plenty of games which are making money while not allowing people to buy power.
Dota 2 isn't even an MMO and they are making millions off of their cosmetic store.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
I myself have played Dota2, LoL and other games that has the "vanity shop". But the games usually are much lighter and don't have such high upkeep as MMO:s do, least I think so.
Possible? you bet! but not at the quality standards that I saw in NeverWinter - I mean, you 'could' make a game, and just have a 'pay pal' link and ask for donations if you liked it. (all shareware style from the olden-days,) but - the thing is, the guy's with the budget strings, definitely want as large a return on their investment as possible.
Dev's want to make a good game, investors want to capitalize on the 'good game' and get as much return on their investment as they can - so, with that in mind, it's like a 'math game' where you determine, how far you can 'push' the "Get more Money" envelope before you start losing people.
For example, earlier in the thread - you had a guy list a bunch of things that he didn't want them to sell i.e. character classes, high end gear etc.
with more and more data of users of 'free games' predictions can start to be made about if that guy (and a bunch like him of course,) would actually stop playing (and potentially paying,) if they offered classes for sale, and high end gear for sale.
but how about they offer classes, but NOT high end gear? would they have a better chance of keeping him and his like minded buddies? probably so.
they will look for that 'sweet' spot - where you lose least amount of potential customers, and get the biggest return on investment.
so,a AAA game, that has ONLY cosmetic items for sale in the cash shop, you'd probably have a ton of people playing, but not as much revenue as you could get if you also sold faster mounts, classes and gear. So, the company makes the call to sell things other than just cosmetic upgrades, sure you lose some of the folks, but if you were losing the people that weren't going to pay anything (or much) anyway - it may not be as big as a loss. (though you would lose their 'word of mouth' power which is pretty big in the 'free to play' arena.)
Of course they probably have fancy math guy's to work out the formula that says 'hey if we really had 'WoW' numbers playing our game - then we really COULD only sell cosmetic items because there would be so many people buying them.
However - we are still fairly early in this evolution of how we buy and sell games - and your going to find companies playing their cards fairly close to their chest. I doubt they are going to be giving a bunch of demographics and statistics away - so what you end up with is a company like Perfect World, relying on the statistics that they have from their other games.
Anyway, I'm making this really long answer, just to say that sure, in 'theory' a game could be made, and a person 'could' only sell cosmetic items - but bottom line, at some base level, the reason that games are commercially produced, it to turn a profit - so, until it can be proved that you would make MORE money selling only cosmetic items - it is very doubtful that anyone will take that route. And as we all know - even subscription based games have there 'black market' e-bay buyers and sellers where a whole bunch of money is being moved around by people getting items that make them more powerful in game. What company wouldn't be tempted to reach into that pile of gold flowing around and try to snag a hand full or two of that?
Thanks for letting me theory craft some.
zWolf / Wesgar -out.
zWolf / Wesgar
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I think it is a pretty fair stretch to claim that GW2 is a 'cosmetic only cash shop' when there is an 'money for gold' exchange system set up right in the main shop screen - add to that all the 'convenience' items like 'repair now' tokens or 'summon banker' and lets not forget about the buff's (including XP buff's,) and I really don't see how you think it's cosmetic only.
I certainly think that it is a VERY well done shop - and you certainly don't feel to much like there is any kind of a 'pay to win' vibe going on - but to claim that it is 'cosmetic only' ?? there is just to much proof against such a thing my gaming brother.
zWolf / Wesgar
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Except that none of those things make you more powerful, they don't give you any real advantage over a player not spending the money. Things like temporary buffs are just that, temporary. An xp boost saves you playing time to help you catch up with your friends, and it only makes a difference during leveling, which is completely different from endgame. At the end of the day, the person who got the buff doesn't have anything that isn't available to anyone else. Repair tokens or banker tokens don't make your character more powerful, they simply add the convenience of not having to run somewhere. You don't get any stat buffs from them.
I also hope you don't think the gold exchange system in GW2 is bad, because NW has a worse system. You see, you can only ever get 24k ADs (refined) per day, if you want more than that, you have to pay cash. You also can't trade ADs for gold. At least in GW2 you can just farm more gold to get the gems you want, there's no hard cap. With the NW system, they artificially cap you to convince you to spend more cash.
But hey, if all you care about is profit, you can certainly go down that route. Some developers care about making a quality game experience, but some only care about money. If you only care about money you can sell power items in your shop and join the long list of MMOs in the asian market that nobody plays because buying power makes the game lame.
You will find very quickly that if the game doesn't have an even footing for all players, your game will be seen as a failure. That type of game makes a player's wallet matter, not a player's skill or effort. Look at CO and STO; they both make a profit, but they are seen as failures by the MMO community at large.
If the amount of money you spend on the game affects how powerful you are, the game is pay2win and will be seen as a failure, a cash grab, a game where the developers don't care about the game or the players, only money.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
Designing the game to make people buy gold makes the game kind of suck.
i personally quit a game i enjoyed for over three years because of gambling system of refining or enchanting if you will of gear.the farming of gear was fine,but you had have cash shop items to refine it,or risk breaking gear you farmed for over six months.i would farm for weeks getting enough gold get the items from cash to just watch my refine fail repeatedly.i just grew tired of it all and quit.i really don't know much about how this game works,but if it has a refine system,then yes,you will be able buy +9 weapons with real money.
overall,i think the system is ok,and pwe never usually limits parts of game to people who do not pay any real money.but i have come to my own decision to only play their new games at two years at most,and then just move on to the next game.
First, I disagree, advantages ARE given over players that don't spend money in that it takes less time up to do things or 'get' things - think of time as a currency and you will see it more clearly.
Secondly, the base problem here is that you are mis-defining 'cosmetic' Cosmetic has to do with the 'look' of a thing - there a whole bunch of things offered on the shop that have nothing to do with cosmetics.
You said, that the shop is 'only cosmetic items' and that just is NOT true. I think you mean that it isn't 'pay to win' you could make a much stronger argument to support that argument or at least the argument that it is 'less' pay to win than other games of this nature - but if you are trying to say that the only things sold, are 'cosmetic' items, that just shows a basic miss understanding of the term 'cosmetic'.
here is a link to the dictionary definition of the word:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cosmetic?s=t
here are the sections from that page that apply best to the term 'cosmetic' as used in your context when referring to the game:
2.cosmetics, superficial measures to make something appear better, more attractive, or more impressive: The budget committee opted for cosmetics instead of a serious urban renewal plan.
adjective3.serving to beautify; imparting or improving beauty, especially of the face.
4.
used or done superficially to make something look better, more attractive,or more impressive: Alterations in the concert hall were only cosmetic and didnothing to improve the acoustics.
You are just not using the correct word. Your arguments are about how 'not' play to win that the game is - and you have good points. But to claim that all of the items that you can buy for cash only affect the 'look' of things, just is not true.
I just want to make sure that there is no confusion - the in game shop is NOT 'cosmetic items only' there ARE (or will be,) other convenience items for sale there - and there will obviously be differences in opinion about how 'play to win' those items make the game or not - however, whether it is 'cosmetic only' or not - is NOT a matter of opinion - you are incorrect in your statement that the items offered are 'only' cosmetic which means having to do with the 'look' of a thing. there are other 'non cosmetic' (things that don't have to do with how something looks,) offered in the shop.
hopefully that clears up the 'is it cosmetic only' or not question. There are definitely more than only cosmetic items offered.
zWolf / Wesgar
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Sorry, but you are arguing semantics and either not comprehending or ignoring the issue.
Does accessing a bank or repairing your armor make you more powerful than the other person? No.
Does it let you access any content that someone else can't? No.
Does buying armor, weapons, classes, or races make you more powerful than someone who hasn't bought those items if everything else is equal? Yes
Does it let you access content that the other person can't? Probably.
What you are talking about is having a 2-tier system for players. Those who spend cash to get the best items handed to them, and those who don't get the best items despite earning all their items for gameplay. That's a terrible system.
What's really at stake here is the whole idea of risk vs. reward, and reward for effort/gameplay. MMOs are as much about getting the reward for gameplay as they are about the journey. Why would people take the risk or spend time on the gameplay if they can just buy the item in the shop?
That would kill this game.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
Devs can make a cool long quest to get an item. This takes expensive dev time but makes the game better and much more fun for players.
vs.
Devs can make the item be acquired by buying gold. This is easy and makes the company money.
Companies need to resist the temptation to reduce interesting content (particularly end game content) into money making scheme.
I think you are missing the point and ignoring the issue:
ANY game is subject to the "unequal footing" youre talking about on the grounds that there is Always a very easy and accessible way to buy as much cash and items from the game as you want!
whether its from the company directly or you go to a third party website that runs a professional bot/farming business who is going to sell you those items or powerlevel your character and trick it out with the best BoP items in the game. if you have money to spend, you can have the best of the best available in ANY game.
what does this have to do with neverwinter?? sounds like you have a problem with capitalism and the internet???
"Perfecting the art of being a meatshield since 1998"
Banners of the Light
Yeah, there isn't too much new on the table yet.
Wow. That's just ridiculous.
You do realize that developers universally hate third party sellers for this reason, right? Most players will also agree it ruins gameplay for everyone. That's why games which sell items/power are generally seen as failures.
I don't understand how Cryptic can use someone with a history of anti-HAMSTER hate speech to promote STO.
Disheartened member of the Romulan Refugee "faction"
Ashamed that Cryptic wouldn't follow up on thousands of posts of negative feedback.
why not charge for anything the playes is okay with and instead use again lockboxes and the such that players hate and could cause the game to fail and the company due to its allready bad rep with it...
why not instead, no lockboxes, but charge for additional classes, races, character spots, consumables, skins, companions, pets, houses, titles etc etc etc...most players will not have an issue with that and probably spend a lot of cash on it...
Where's your evidence that using lockboxes cause a game to fail? Or that in general players hate them. By all accounts STO is successful game with a fairly large player base that continues to grow, which uses lockboxes. Champions Online also uses lockboxes and while not as popular as it once was(as I understand it), I wouldn't say a game as old at it still going is a failure.
Neverwinter Official Wiki - http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/
No this one
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016471/User-Generated-Content-In-MMOs
Specifically at 38 minutes and 52 Seconds. He even goes on to explain why.
In fact there's a little box down the side which has all the slides including one called "How do you Monetize Authors?" which takes you too the slide.
Wow that is fantastic. Thank you. I had never seen that presentation. I highly recommend it. It's about an hour long with questions but it is incredibly interesting if you intend to make content with the Foundry. He does seem adamant about never making authors pay for parts of the Foundry.
Yes, Tachyonharmonic, Semantics is EXACTLY what I am arguing, I actually agree with almost every thing that you are saying.
I just wanted to point out, to help your other wise very articulate arguments, that Guild Wars 2 is not a 'cosmetic' shop - there are such things, and Guild Wars 2 is not that thing.
I actually agree with most every thing your saying, you just slipped up and said 'cosmetic' shop when I think you meant that Guild Wars 2 is pretty good about not being a 'Pay 2 Win' shop.
That said - I want to play devils advocate. for one second -over the weekend, I just hit Level 80 in Guild Wars 2 - I went to the shop bought some Gems - then converted them into Gold. I spent about 30 bucks or so.
I then bought a bunch of materials on the auction house for gold. I sent those materials over to a Guild Mate, who changed the 45 Globs of Ectoplasm, and the 45 Vials of super hooty blood or what ever, into some pretty darn effective armor. I also bought 6 superior Sigls of the Dolyak, and 3 things to put in my weapons that make them hit harder.
All in all, in one day, I went from a 'green behind the ears' level 80 - to a fairly well geared level 80 that can actually hold his own in World vs World matches.
All I'm pointing out, is that though Guild Wars 2 is a pretty good model even there, for some one to get the 45 Globs of Ectoplasm, and the 45 Vials of Blood, it would have taken a long long time. Instead, I was able to plunk down a few bucks and buy them legitimately from the system that NC soft has.
Though that might be fine for many people, there are some that would not think that very 'fair' to be able to just 'buy power' with cash like that - with out having 'earned it' via time spent in game.
So, even a great, fairly well received game like Guild Wars 2, may have it's detractors - all in all, we are both saying that it is a slippery slope offering things in a shop - so far, it certainly looks like the makers of NeverWinter Online are aware of that, and are at least making indications that they will try to be careful not to totally ruin the game with things that they offer in game.
but yes - as to cosmetic - I really was just wanting to make sure to clarify the semantics of that - it hung me up, it might hang others up - I know it seems like nit picking - but honestly, a cosmetic only shop that really worked and was successful ? that's the holy grail! I think I was so picky because I'd really like to see something like that work... League of Legends was what I hung my hopes on for a long time - but the gaming community there claims that the 'newly released for cash only' classes are usually a bit over powered, and out of balance with the rest of the game for the first few weeks - eventually they get back in line - but there is enough skepticism built up around the perceived grab for money - that I'm forced to look else where for a 'cosmetic only' shop that is financially successful.
That is why I was so picky about making sure that no one thinks that Guild Wars 'is' that elusive 'cosmetic shop' monitization model that so far hasn't proven to be successful. - I mean even in my case this last weekend - no way would I have spent $35 on something that just 'looked better'. The fact that the money I spent on gear made me more powerful in my game play, and allowed me to save time, to skip some content as I work for even better gear is what got me to spend the dollars - in effect, I am part of the 'pay to win' problem - it's a balance though, cause I'm right in there - if a game feels 'too' money grabby - I'm outta there.
ok, thanks. and ya, I was being picky about the terminology. but I have my reasons.
zWolf / Wesgar
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Also remember you will be able to get free lockbox keys. its on the list of things you can buy with your praying coins. among other things