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  • damnaciousdamnacious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 348 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    Pretty sure the term existed.

    I'd never seen it before you introduced it to me - this was simply my attempt referencing my source.
    micky1p00 said:

    ehp should be compared to the role and content, why is this important if it's 10 times larger or smaller if the damage of the content is adjusted? Will people be happy if they get 10 times the hp but the mobs get 20 times the damage?

    Exactly! Given the increase in NPC damage generally, and in particular the increase in damage output at end-content, the current EHP values are insufficient for tank survivability.
    micky1p00 said:

    HP on items is still x4 times the other stats per item level, nothing changed there.
    The change was in the base hp, and older system was based on char level... and a mess.

    These changes still leave it in the same state - "a mess".
    micky1p00 said:


    ... but the builds i've seen the tank is 4 times talkier than a dps. Lets focus on this for a moment, 4 times, as in a hit needs to be 4 times (on average over large numbers of hits, and so on..) larger to kill a tank over a dps. And that's without the tanks mitigation encounters and skills.

    When shouldn't a tank have, at the least, greater than four times the survivability of a DPS? Should tanks then be relegated to being even more obsolete in all but end-game content because a DPS is capable of tanking all non-end-game content?
    micky1p00 said:

    Positional awareness...

    "Positional Awareness" became almost obsolete with the introduction of permanent Combat Advantage from end-game bosses. With end-game boss attacks specifically targeting tanks, irrespective of where they position themselves, "Position Awareness" loses quite a bit of its relevance, don't you think?
    micky1p00 said:

    Why not ask for overall damage reduction? Or deflect severity sources, if that the main issue? btw, where is that issue exactly? Maybe some content need damage reduction?

    "Ask for overall damage reduction" when almost every single aspect of a tank's damage reduction has already been nerfed? Yep. I'm sure that's going to work...

    "Ask for Deflect Severity sources" - been there and done that. Result = nothing.

    "Where is that issue" - general survivability, and more specifically, end-content. Perhaps take a look at the 'Trials' thread for some more info - don't just take my word for it.
    micky1p00 said:

    What imbalance? The one that a tank is ~4 times tankier than dps?

    Again, there's an issue with a tank having greater survivability than a DPS? When was the last time you tried to PVP with a tank? How well did you go against a DPS? Feel tanky enough that it was a fair fight? How long did that "~4 times tankier than dps" help you to last before you died? 5 seconds? Oh. That's right. I forgot you don't PVP...

    So, change benefits PVP, and outside of PVP, that change negatively affects any and all other classes and roles.... how? So, where does your issue lie? That a tank, in the proposed system, is actually then capable of doing their job at end-game?
    micky1p00 said:

    Perhaps tanks do have an issue, perhaps not, but nothing here supports the claims of doom and demise. Where are the actual effective HP and survivability numbers, or a test, a tomm, a Zariel, something? The difference of HP is not an indicator of much on its own.

    Seems obvious by this part of your response that you only superficially glanced at my post, rather than exploring it fully. That's a pretty sloppy effort from you. To be clear, ACT logs already provided, along with comparative videos for visual representation - perhaps assumptions without due diligence isn't the best modus operandi?
    micky1p00 said:

    Tanks need to be needed in content while still part of the overall game mechanics and not personal "tank buster or go to sleep" world. Scaling for better or worse will take care of the first part in old content, a large enough gap of effective hp will take care for up to date content before scaling, while maintaining a gap small enough to need healers, positional awareness, mechanics and use skills in actual combat.

    "Needed in content", eh? The current system only provides a need for tanks in end-content. At all other times, they're pretty much obsolete and unnecessary it seems. Surely you already know that?
    Again with the 'positional awareness'... You haven't tanked much on Preview with these changes, have you? Perhaps give it a try first, then feel free to provide your "experienced opinion" as to whether i'm right or not.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    edited January 5
    Positional awareness is a lot more than just avoiding being outflanked. As far as tanks go, it's making sure you face the boss away from the party and are in a position to give the party CA. It's moving to avoid the red, or moving to protect a group member as part of a mechanic. For DPS, it's making sure you are behind the boss and opposite the tank to get that CA, it's avoiding attacks, using immunity frames when you are able to.

    If you think that old content is too easy, feel free to say which dungeons need more damage. Just don't be surprised when you face a wave of players who think that old content should be easy because it is old. Now scaling does make things better balance wise than what we have on live, but keep in mind, if an experienced DPS goes into OLD content, of course they are going to be able to survive more than a newer player. Take a group of newer players, and you will find that the tank is still needed.

    As far as PVP goes, this game is 95% PVE. PVP isn't going to be a major concern until they do get around to balancing it.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    I hate the fact that I have to invest in awareness in my tank. From these changes I just hope that you climb in a better way the players are queued, since I can not stay more than 1 hour in a LoMM trying something impossible, even asking countless times to be kicked after trying to explain (with my pumling English) to players with no knowledge of the game of basic mechanics. This makes me seem toxic and elitist, besides making me increasingly believe that a large base of players want to complete content in a loaded way without worrying about seeking knowledge. If there is no balance in PvP, there is also no PvE.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited January 5
    Well, since you chose to make it personal about who plays what and not about the merit of your post, which is lacking, lets delve there.
    Since the discussion is about end-game, will it be fair to measure how many successful runs you tanked Zariel? ToMM? Will it be ironic to discover that someone who mained TR did more runs as a tank than the master of tanking...
    I'm also having hard time finding you on the PvP leaderboards... But there are so many PvPers nowdays, must be my bad.

    To actual points that you repeat but have hard time proving / supporting.

    1. How a DPS will tank tank busters that meant for 4 times what they can take? While scaling hard limit everything. Or someone missed the memo where a major point of these changes is the application of scaling.

    2. Positional awareness obsolete? Lets not confuse the stats from the actual awareness of the player and the action they take. How many runs it takes for people to learn, especially DPS to move the cannons in master zariel so it doesn't strike everyone, or tanks move the entire group to safe spot. In a content where actually involves pressing buttons and not empty reliance on accumulation of stats is where the difference becomes clearer.
    Why shouldn't a tank be afraid of DPS dragging some AoE on them, shielding, or needing heals. Aren't we playing a team game?

    4. Again, memo - non-end game is all scaled, or you haven't been on preview? What a tank needs more than 4 times for if everything kills the dps. Unless it's some attempt to reduce the game again to stat accumulation and make all skill based aspects, like skill timing, position and anything else meaningless. Why to use shift, tab, encounters, when old content doesn't have tank busters and you can just run like "fat hp" dummy and soak damage. Who needs healers when one can just chug potions and health stones... Is that the aim here?

    5. Did you actually run any of the trials? Or you only rely on outdated posts? Hell did you run Zariel on live?

    6. So where is the issue? In PvP or end-game? Seems like you confuse the two. They are not the same.

    7. All I see is a repeated mantra but no actual support for the claims. Wait, did I say Tanks have 4 times the effective HP? Maybe I was wrong, and it's 10 times. Are those the first numbers you actually see? What your numbers are? Please do tell us all. Or how they say, "Share with the class".

    8. Then I'm sure you can point me towards the videos of people doing everything without tanks on preview, on the recent build. It will be a nice change from the FUD posts without actual substance.


    PS:
    "Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people. "
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,220 Arc User

    If there is no balance in PvP, there is also no PvE.

    Care to explain this more?
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    If there is no balance in PvP, there is also no PvE.

    Care to explain this more?
    Just search here right on the forum how many posts have of people complaining about players without gear or knowledge in CoDG or LoMM. CR then is almost always a purgatory. For RTQ only need 21k, REDQ 24k, ok!? But what's the point of getting this number with random equipment and without knowledge capable of completing certain contents.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,220 Arc User

    arazith07 said:

    If there is no balance in PvP, there is also no PvE.

    Care to explain this more?
    Just search here right on the forum how many posts have of people complaining about players without gear or knowledge in CoDG or LoMM. CR then is almost always a purgatory. For RTQ only need 21k, REDQ 24k, ok!? But what's the point of getting this number with random equipment and without knowledge capable of completing certain contents.
    None of this has anything to do with PVP. A lot of this are players unwilling to do harder content with little to no reward, or players unwilling to teach others (or listen to) on how to survive a dungeon or trial. Or lack of tutorial in setting up players for success.

    You can completely remove PVP from the game and it will not affect PVE what so ever IMO.

    So again I ask, how does PVP being balanced affect PVE?
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    My point was that if not even PvE is balanced, imagine PvP.

    Suggest to creators, create updated guides of dungeon and trials mechanics that although they are old, many new players still have no knowledge of what to do in them.
  • damnaciousdamnacious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 348 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    None of this has anything to do with PVP. A lot of this are players unwilling to do harder content with little to no reward, or players unwilling to teach others (or listen to) on how to survive a dungeon or trial. Or lack of tutorial in setting up players for success.

    You can completely remove PVP from the game and it will not affect PVE what so ever IMO.

    So again I ask, how does PVP being balanced affect PVE?

    The unfortunate reality is that decisions are made regarding characters and their capabilities based upon both PVE and PVP, as the developers struggle to strike a 'balance' between the two with changes which they make.

    You've been around in the game for a while now, and I thought, for sure, you'd be aware of these ongoing issues.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,220 Arc User

    arazith07 said:

    None of this has anything to do with PVP. A lot of this are players unwilling to do harder content with little to no reward, or players unwilling to teach others (or listen to) on how to survive a dungeon or trial. Or lack of tutorial in setting up players for success.

    You can completely remove PVP from the game and it will not affect PVE what so ever IMO.

    So again I ask, how does PVP being balanced affect PVE?

    The unfortunate reality is that decisions are made regarding characters and their capabilities based upon both PVE and PVP, as the developers struggle to strike a 'balance' between the two with changes which they make.

    You've been around in the game for a while now, and I thought, for sure, you'd be aware of these ongoing issues.
    The last time I remember PVP being mentioned in general class balance was before they added tenacity. I am aware that PVP is not balanced, however this a lot of those problems don't really carry over to PVE. Is PVE balanced? No, of course not. I am merely saying that PVP being balanced does not somehow equate to PVE being balanced.
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 221 Arc User
    A few questions on stats.
    What is the formula for defense% to DR? 70% defense is how much DR?
    If a tank increases their stamina does that affect how much damage they can effectively block? +25% stamina = EHP boost?
    Does out going heals add to a tanks total agro, or just out going damage? In ACT do I go by damage out or total out to judge agro potential?

    Thanks in advance.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    karvare said:

    A few questions on stats.
    What is the formula for defense% to DR? 70% defense is how much DR?
    If a tank increases their stamina does that affect how much damage they can effectively block? +25% stamina = EHP boost?
    Does out going heals add to a tanks total agro, or just out going damage? In ACT do I go by damage out or total out to judge agro potential?

    Thanks in advance.

    *1/(1+def%) so max mitigation from defense is 1/1.9, and that is a multiplier in the damage formula. You can look at Rainer's video that outlines it in detail. As for its relation to DR, I think its separated now.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    karvare said:

    A few questions on stats.
    What is the formula for defense% to DR? 70% defense is how much DR?
    If a tank increases their stamina does that affect how much damage they can effectively block? +25% stamina = EHP boost?
    Does out going heals add to a tanks total agro, or just out going damage? In ACT do I go by damage out or total out to judge agro potential?

    Thanks in advance.

    70% defense means that 58.82% of damage passes through your defense.

    100
    --- divided by ---
    100 + DefenseStat%
  • damnaciousdamnacious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 348 Arc User
    karvare said:

    A few questions on stats.
    What is the formula for defense% to DR? 70% defense is how much DR?
    If a tank increases their stamina does that affect how much damage they can effectively block? +25% stamina = EHP boost?
    Does out going heals add to a tanks total agro, or just out going damage? In ACT do I go by damage out or total out to judge agro potential?

    Thanks in advance.

    Others above have kindly answered your first question, so i won't bother to repeat.

    When you refer to "Increases their stamina", I assume you're referring to the Anniversary Ham. From my testing many, many months ago, this did, in fact, increase the amount of damage being 'reduced' by Block. For example, at that time, it increased the base 50% to 75%.

    If you're referring, instead, to "Stamina Regeneration", then the answer would be 'no', as you cannot regenerate Stamina while Blocking, so it makes no difference. It is interesting to note that even at 100% Stamina Regeneration, your Stamina will not refill instantly. My early testing quite a while ago indicated that a Stamina Regeneration rate of 330% was needed to get close to 'instant' Stamina refilling.

    In previous developer posts in previous recent mods, it was clarified that both Incoming and Outgoing Healing generate Threat/HATE. However, in my own testing since that clarification, i have not been able to confirm that any form of healing generates Threat/HATE and it does not superficially appear to do so.

    I think it may be safer to only rely upon "Damage Out" to calculate Threat/HATE.

  • dracory1#6808 dracory1 Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    So, a short post but that needs to be brought up.

    Dreadnought Fighters get 10% combat advantage and critical strike when their stamina is full - and let's be honest most DPS keep their stamina up 90% of the time.

    As a rogue I get no % increases, unless I use Skillful Infiltrator which gives only 2.5% crit, 2.5% deflect and 10% movement speed... and that's way too little, since we already can get to 40% movement speed without using Skillful and deflect is... well, deflect.

    In these changes the %s mean everything - and we barely get any from our class. It'd be nice if we'd be getting like 10% crit and 10% accuracy instead.
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 221 Arc User
    Thanks for the replies, all.

    I had missed the DR equation when watching Rainer's video and that helps.

    Yes I was thinking about the ham, with divine palisade I was wondering how much additional HP I would be able to shield. If it adds 25% to the block over the 75% of Divine Palisade it would mean 325k more shielded, I have 900k+ currently.
    I was assuming it would be 25% of the amount I can shield normally which would be less.
    A 325k HP larger shield may be a decent choice of food buff when dealing with tank busters IMHO.

    Sad to hear about heals, I generate over 20k enc dps healing with my set up. Would be a great agro buff. Oh well.
  • malistaire#9098 malistaire Member Posts: 49 Arc User



    In previous developer posts in previous recent mods, it was clarified that both Incoming and Outgoing Healing generate Threat/HATE. However, in my own testing since that clarification, i have not been able to confirm that any form of healing generates Threat/HATE and it does not superficially appear to do so.

    I think it may be safer to only rely upon "Damage Out" to calculate Threat/HATE.

    Healing spells from healers and paladin tanks that use divine touch for some reason would generate threat. If I remember correctly healing spells have a 2.5x threat multiplier (I haven't tested aggro on heals myself).

    Heals from things like Bloodletter and Primal Fury paired with Bloodfury do not generate additional threat from the heal. They only generate threat from the damage they deal. I think the warlock's Vampiric Embrace also does not generate additional threat for the health restored by the attack. Only the damage of these attacks generates threat.
  • skatopsixos7skatopsixos7 Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    pitshade said:



    Maybe should start a new thread and post videos as people upload showing each dungeon solo'ed by a dps.

    When is that trying to show? As the health bars aren't right for what is on preview, those are the old style health bars.
    Part of a conversation saying that tanks aren't needed for all content on live, in this case dps solo runs. Counter point is that the content is very old.
    Old in what way? compared to preview? then yes, but when i did that, it is the current live version.

  • damnaciousdamnacious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 348 Arc User

    Healing spells from healers and paladin tanks that use divine touch for some reason would generate threat. If I remember correctly healing spells have a 2.5x threat multiplier (I haven't tested aggro on heals myself).

    Heals from things like Bloodletter and Primal Fury paired with Bloodfury do not generate additional threat from the heal. They only generate threat from the damage they deal. I think the warlock's Vampiric Embrace also does not generate additional threat for the health restored by the attack. Only the damage of these attacks generates threat.

    My apologies. I should have clarified that 'no tank Incoming or Outgoing Healing seems to generate Threat'.

  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,269 Arc User

    pitshade said:



    Maybe should start a new thread and post videos as people upload showing each dungeon solo'ed by a dps.

    When is that trying to show? As the health bars aren't right for what is on preview, those are the old style health bars.
    Part of a conversation saying that tanks aren't needed for all content on live, in this case dps solo runs. Counter point is that the content is very old.
    Old in what way? compared to preview? then yes, but when i did that, it is the current live version.
    Old as in Tiamat was from mod 5.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • gweddeoran#4924 gweddeoran Member Posts: 44 Arc User
    Above post makes no sense. Mod 5 content has been scaled up and is SUPPOSED to be relevant as well.
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,269 Arc User
    Noworries was thinking that a previous poster was talking about something on Preview and I explained that it wasn't. I don't even remember how long ago this exchange was. If you want to argue with whoever it was that Noworries replied to, I suggest you contact them directly.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,220 Arc User



    Maybe should start a new thread and post videos as people upload showing each dungeon solo'ed by a dps.

    This is the original post with solo Tiamat run, which was done on live, not preview. I doubt that could be reproduced on preview.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 490 Arc User

    @noworries#8859 I am flabbergasted by the fact that combined rating on mount collars won't change (watched the stream today). This makes absolutely no sense. So the higher level collars we have, the less stats we have? I completed several dungeons on preview server, with no collars, with epic collars, and with mythic collars. In many cases it makes sense to just unequip your collars if you have them at mythic, because your defensive stats are a lot higher. When you equip them, your caps move further away from your defensive stats. Why not make the combined rating on collars be IL - 50, or IL - 100? That would fix this issue. Why were they designed to be IL/2, that doesn't make sense and diminishes the collars in value. There needs to be an incentive to upgrade them. Right now, people only really care about the damage collar and the crit sev collar. If upgrading the others diminishes the value of them, and they don't add anything to your toon, people just won't bother with the other three.

    I have 4 necklaces that I find interesting and viable even with the oncoming change, which are: speed of movement, recharge speed, stamina regen and at will bonus damage. Probably put all of them in the legendary in a near future, but none in the mythical, since it is practically impossible due to its cost and this is something that needs to be reviewed. As for the AD necklace, you just need to equip it to open the chests at the end of the dungeons.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User

    @noworries#8859 again, the celestial fix is not good enough. There were multiple suggestions given in the forums on how to fix them, and they either weren't read or just disregarded.

    IL on Celestials - IL on Lionhearts = 100.
    Damage difference for dps = 100*1.2/10 = 12
    We are getting 12 damage from going to celestials. That is less than 0.2%...
    We still have to stack celestial bonus with 5 encounters (which some classes can't do for 10+ seconds), and it stays at 7.5%
    Lionhearts grant 10% probably 95% of the time. Lets say 90% for argument sake, but in trials, stamina is almost ALWAYS full.

    Celestial - Lionhearts = 7.5% + 0.2% - 9%... That is negative. Not to mention the weapons give nothing to tanks.

    I suggested this before:

    Celestial bonus: On encounter use (one encounter), grant 10% damage, 10% OGH, when stamina is empty, grant 10% DR. This might seem too good, but Lionheart bonus is too good also. 100% stamina has almost 100% uptime when you look at TOMM and MZC.

    This is why we, the players, needed to come up with a consensus during playtesting. They even asked us too. The devs don't play the game.. so they don't know. They just hear the complaints and don't know which are legit and which are hot air.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    @noworries#8859 again, the celestial fix is not good enough. There were multiple suggestions given in the forums on how to fix them, and they either weren't read or just disregarded.

    IL on Celestials - IL on Lionhearts = 100.
    Damage difference for dps = 100*1.2/10 = 12
    We are getting 12 damage from going to celestials. That is less than 0.2%...
    We still have to stack celestial bonus with 5 encounters (which some classes can't do for 10+ seconds), and it stays at 7.5%
    Lionhearts grant 10% probably 95% of the time. Lets say 90% for argument sake, but in trials, stamina is almost ALWAYS full.

    Celestial - Lionhearts = 7.5% + 0.2% - 9%... That is negative. Not to mention the weapons give nothing to tanks.

    I suggested this before:

    Celestial bonus: On encounter use (one encounter), grant 10% damage, 10% OGH, when stamina is empty, grant 10% DR. This might seem too good, but Lionheart bonus is too good also. 100% stamina has almost 100% uptime when you look at TOMM and MZC.

    This is why we, the players, needed to come up with a consensus during playtesting. They even asked us too. The devs don't play the game.. so they don't know. They just hear the complaints and don't know which are legit and which are hot air.
    They don't have to play the game to do the two lines of basic math I did to figure out that LH's are better. They are better in theory and in practice. I don't know why they are afraid of adding damage resistance to celestials for tanks and upping the numbers to 10%.
  • synyster3006synyster3006 Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    Hi @noworries#8859,
    I spent a lot of time in preview, and I felt like “beeing more end-game” will bring you to get nerfed...

    ### Mount Collars ###
    Having 5 mythic means that you will lose a lot of defensive stats, due to the fact that you need to concentrate all your ench/gear/insignias to reach the IL cap on offensive stats (and you will barely make it).

    I would really like to upgrade them all at some point (since now there’s not enought ways to get 500 legendary shards), and I don’t wanna find myself to swap 2/3 out because will save me scrolls and health stones...

    My suggestion is that we’d need CR==IL to make the upgrade worthy.

    ### Celestial Set ###
    The math is pretty simple, and unfortunately the cooldown removal won’t be enough...
    Lionheart will be best in slot!

    If it goes like this, I will feel like I’ve wasted my time and energy into something useless.
    You’r going to penalize people that have spent a lot of time learning or teaching Zariel for months, instead of just sitting there with their old Lionhearts... and that feels really bad imo

    I totally agree with @jman3l#5579 suggestions about this.
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