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CDP Topic: Game Content Accessibility

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  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Member Posts: 409 Arc User
    dolrey said:

    Feedback Overview
    Nerf all stones of health from restoring 100% of max health to restoring 40% of max health but not less than 130k hp (130k hp is 2 times more than heal the best healing potion for lvl 80).



    Feedback Goal
    This nerf is focused on endgame characters. Content looks less challenging when you always have cheap opportunity to instantly heal yourself for 100% of health. For example when you failed with mechanic of boss or mobs you always can full up your health what make content much easier and not so interesting.

    Feedback Functionality
    Stones of health still will be the best consumable for self healing but already not so op in endgame:
    1) New players with new characters will have no troubles with passing new content because thank to min 130k hp heal their characters still will be healed for about 100% hp.
    2) This nerf is mostly focused on endgame players who have almost bis characters. This nerf will help to partly reduce problem with too high healing in endgame dungeons when "100% hp or dead" (designers of dungeons know about it).

    Risks & Concerns
    The most important thing which we also should think about is how "mid game" players with ~17-18k il will feel making daily quests in campaign zones. But I'm pretty sure that a bit increase of difficulty will make usual content only a bit more interesting and challenging for them.

    They would have to reduce the cool down to 2-5 seconds instead of 15-18 that it is now, and also make it so that using a stone of health does not put healing potions on cool down too. There have been way too many times that I have used a potion or health stone in combat, only to get one shot a second time, or have all my health drained before the healing potions/stones come off cool down. In fact healing potions should have 1 second cooldown independent of all other items in tray. If I wanna burn through 99 potions in one battle let me. Elsewise I could agree with this if it stones restored 50% of health and removed all negative effects such as poison.
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Member Posts: 409 Arc User

    Feedback Overview
    I would just like an alternative way to get stuff from end game content. ATM It costs $1,000 + US dollars worth of enchantments, mount, insignia's, companions, rp's, etc to have a chance in ToMM, or even be accepted into a group that's not just for training. To me, that's insane. I know you don't have to spend irl money to get there, I'm almost there and haven't spent much on the game aside from vip here or there when I miss out on the zax or just forget. But, I've had to farm events like crazy for years and come up with ways to make profits with my in-game currency.

    The issue is with new and casual players, are they going to spend over a thousand dollars to get there fast, or are they willing to wait 2 years to run ToMM?

    Feedback Goal
    Have an alternative way to farm loot from end game content, specifically, the weapon sets, I feel left out, probably will never get lionheart set, especially with such low alliance and guild populations in the game, combined with a bunch of new players that will take years to get there and old player that have left (who otherwise would have been able to help).

    Risks & Concerns
    Can't be too easy, or else no one would run difficult end game content at all. Even if it takes 2 months, I'd be fine with that.

    I'm in the same boat on Xbox with my pally. Our guild got poached even though it was against the alliance rules, so we went 2-3 weeks without an alliance. Still haven't gotten into another ToMM run, let alone a successful one. ToMM is way beyond what the difficulty should be IMHO. As far as I am concerned all content should be doable by everyone. I'm not saying that you should be capable of ToMM, LoMM, ot even T9 by the end of your first day, but if you start on day one of the latest mod, you should be able to get to the endgame dungeon before the next mod releases with minimal real world cash spent.
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Member Posts: 409 Arc User
    zerappus said:

    Core NW weaknesses:
    - NW hasn't had a new system in 4 years since the initial mount overhaul - which ended with the insignia system. NW is suffering from severe system starvation.
    - NW compete with its past not with other mmo games. NW bar is itself and does not look at the current flow of newer mmo. The question it always answers is "We're done this 1 or 2 years ago. How can we slightly improve or change it".


    Levelling Newbie
    :
    - What is the most asked newbie question in Protector's Enclave by far? Answer: Where do I go next/What do I do next?. The Levelling arc + 70/80 Campaigns must be central and streamlined so new player know what to do (they can start by adding a Campaign hotkey to remind players, instead of it being buried in flag Icon + tab).

    NW still hasn't still fully ironed out the old 60-70 progression. It took them 4 major updates to fix the Mod 6 level cap debacle. The last and final update was about 2 years ago. The good thing is 70 to 80 progression is much smoother. They learned their lesson not to prolong/protract level cap increase.

    Here is one small example: Underdark(part1) was level 70. They lowered it and Maze Engine (part2) to Level 61 to aid in the old 60-70 levelling. Just recently this year they raised it again to 70 while leaving Maze Engine as part of the Knox Recruitment event (level 60). So, for newb to do part one of the story arc, you need to do part2 first!?

    Levelled Newbie (lvl 80 cap):
    - Progression wall. Newbs need a consequent series of walls that progressively scale up instead large chunks that dissuade them from going further or forward.
    - About 2 years or so I suggested bound items that will aid newbs in this progression. Some of these are added in Knox Recruitment event, some of these were added in the Legacy Campaign. But they need to redesign it to have a progression wall as follows: Beginner>Intermediate>HighEnd>Maxed Players


    High End/Capped Players:
    - Here's why NW is losing high end/maxed players ( as I've explained in a couple of posts several months ago).

    There's no new system in at least 4 years. Players are capped out. Instead of adding a NEW system (horizontal progression) to cap out, they raise the bar on OLD systems (vertical progression) and essentially degrade/devalue items. This is akin to adding new shelves on top of cabinet instead of making new ones.

    example:
    - Weapon/armor enchanments used to have nomenclature: Perfect(10)>Pure(11)>Transcendent(12). They recently added Unparalleled(13). Then they removed the naming system altogether and called the new rank 14 so they can just keep adding "shelves" in the old cabinet at their own behest. (Why not just make a weapon/armor enchanments? And bring back the old nomeclature?)

    And one can trace all the problem to a lack of new system (horizontal progression). All the old vertical progressions are capped out. The top end player end up in an endless cycle of expensive rut routine.

    example:
    Mod Z: New weapon. Players try to upgrade it (expensive! RP, Mats, Weapon stat rng, Weapon drop rng etc.)
    Mod Z + 1: Halfway there!
    Mod Z + 2: Finally done. Wait, another new weapon? Cycle starts again.

    NW has to release New System Modules instead of Storyline Modules all the time.

    The next 5 mods should be: 3 New System Modules + 2 Storyline Modules.

    Otherwise NW will keep bleeding from the top end from this unsustainable re-upgrade cycles. Again, NW hasn't had a new system in at least 4 years and they have a very old and small system pool which they cycle every Module and capped players are tired of the nonstop Devalue>Reupgrade circle.

    Mod 16+17 they devalued
    :
    - Artifacts
    - Companions
    - Mounts
    - Normal Enchantments
    - Weapon Armor enchantments
    - Crafting

    These flurry of nerf to High End / Maxed players added with the much needed Class Balance spearheaded by @noworries(dev) ( where the GWF/Barbarians finally got nerfed - this class' damage curve scale 5x-10x vs. an average class for almost 5 years; That why alot of Barbarians complain even their class is still strong. They miss that massive advantage) - resulted in a system shock to the status quo. It's hard to handle wholesale changes at the same time, making players quit en masse.

    In able to correct this downward trajectory, NW has to add New Systems so as to have much longer and sustainable re-upgrade cycles.





    No more new systems. I'm still wrapping my head around refinement of enchants, comps, and artifacts. Then they threw in the insignia refinement, which isn't difficult to grasp, but is really bag space intensive. We needed a new bag specifically for insignias, just like they gave us a bag for the vanity pets(which IMHO are totally worthless, I really wish they were unbound so I could get something from them). Yes the constant upgrade cycle can get boring, but for those of us that have been her for even 2 years and are primarily weekend warriors, you can't add new systems and expect us to be happy.

    When I first started playing T9 was the endgame dungeon. I got into it for the first time with my main in may or june(over 12 months, and 2.5 mods after I started playing). There was massive confusion on my part as to which weapons, and armor sets were worth my effort, until mod 15 came out. That's when I finally found a guild that was willing to explain things to me. And I still don't fully understand how all things interact(like how does crit strike help a warlock healer?), or does briartwine enchant, or elven battle enchant really work(so far elven battle makes no difference in the frequency of being disabled that I have noticed). Those of us on console(xbox is where I play, but I have a feeling PS has the same issue) can't run a logger to see if a change is beneficial for us. Because of this, I refuse to spend ad/real cash on buying a high rank armor/weapon enchant, or to spend the time to farm the resources to upgrade a cheap low rank armor/weapon enchant when I have no way of being able to tell if it works as advertised. Adding a new system would increase my frustration even more.
  • jimmypdtjimmypdt Member Posts: 121 Arc User
    > @bpstuart said:
    > Feedback Overview: Update the chat with new options.
    >
    > Feedback Goal: I would like the chat to have the option to remove yourself from the "Looking for guild" "Looking for party" channels. I thought i had but i keep seeing "Added to looking for group Channel" when i log in and i have been getting pestered to join groups and guilds rather frequently lately and would like to not. In fact disabling invites would be a nice option. Julia has had to deal with invites while streaming so there are times when they are just not welcome.
    >
    >
    > Feedback Functionality: perhaps a setting in the chat options menu that just turns off invites. Anyone trying to send would just see "Send invite" grayed out.
    >
    > Risks & Concerns: The only risk i can see is someone turning invites off then forgetting that they did so perhaps a little icon dipicting your oppeness to messages and invites somewhere.
    >
    > ( if there is currently a system like this that i just haven't found or have forgotten about call me a hamster and tell me where to find it. )
    >
    > You could also make Emotes more accessible by adding an STO like emote menu instead of having to type "/emote dance " or whatever it is. i type rather slowly.

    For chat if you go to your chat options there is a list of chat groups. You can click on the ones you want to have pop up on one of your chat tabs.

    As for the invite to group thing. If you go to your social tab, default "o" on PC, you have two dropdown menus. The second one is for invites. I hope this helps.

    All the best,
    OPTank_
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Member Posts: 409 Arc User

    Feedback Overview
    Remove counter stats and make Ability Scores more meaningful. The counter stat system confuses new players, adds no real value to the game, and has problems with scaling, when you are capped for lomm/tomm and get scaled to some lower item levels, you no longer meet the caps you had met before in harder content. My observation has been that for DPS roles, once you know what the caps are, it's extremely easy to cap all of your offensive counter stats with your defensive stats being slightly below the caps, maybe 5-20k in one or the other depending on gear setup, and vise versa for Tank roles. In fact, it's very possible to cap everything at the expense of a bit of power, but few people are willing to do that. In the end, the only 2 stats that matter are Power and HP. The only place the counter stat system is meaningful at all, is in PvP, and even there it shows some real problems with limited stat pools and the mathematics behind it, it will also show problems when the stat pool becomes too large.

    If Ability Scores were more meaningful in the game, it would more closely resemble D&D rule sets, and add more diversity in character building. Being a D&D game, new players who are familiar with PnP rules, would find such a system comfortable.

    Feedback Goal
    Encourage the developers to rethink the systems behind damage calculations and character building/development. Removing unneeded fat from the game would make it more accessible to everyone.

    Feedback Functionality
    If all that was done was to remove the counter stats, leave power and hp, and add passive role modifiers, such as tanks take X% less damage and have X% more HP, and DPS roles deal X% more damage, the game would essentially be exactly the same, except be a lot more accessible to everyone only needing to wrap their heads around 2 stats, power and hp. These stats basically being what makes the turn based rules of PnP realized in a real time action based digital game. The entry requirements for dungeons and trials could be based simply on Power and HP caps, which actually more closely resemble what people expect and require to join their groups.

    For example, if everyone had a 20% chance to crit, and Dexterity or some other stat, added to your crit chance in a meaningful way, that would be one way to increase crit chance to builds that depend on it. In PnP, your weapon and some feats/enchantments, and other things determined your % chance to land a critical strike. Though, in PnP I do not believe it was ever possible to reach 50% crit chance.

    Without the counter stat system, scaling would be as simple as modifying power and hp, and maybe Ability Score points. There would no longer be issues such as having Arm Pen capp'd for end game, but not for earlier content. In that way, older content would be more accessible to seasoned players, and new players wouldn't have to wrap their heads around trying to learn what all these different stats are for, how they affect the game and their ability to play it.

    Risks & Concerns
    Can the game and player base handle another change to the core systems so soon after all the changes that happened in m16?

    Again, at the end of the day, if you know how to play the game, the only thing that determines if you can run a dungeon successfully or not, is Power and HP, everything else is just fat.

    They'd have to give us back the initial stat rolls that we had when I first started playing back in early 2018. I agree the whole stats/counter stats system can be confusing, especially for newbs. I attribute that to the fact that there is no in game explanation of this, whether a tutorial that is easy to understand(and you only go thru it once per account, unless you want to for a specific class when you create a new toon) or an in game encyclopedia that explains the stats.

    I disagree with yer final statement. I've run plenty of dungeons with subpar stats, and with people that have subpar stats. LoMM is a fantastic example of this. If I'm in a group and a few people are low a def, the Arcturia fight will cause others to leave. Of course you also have to remember to save yer encounter powers for the mimics too. But if that def isn't 68k, or better the healer is spending too much time running after the the people with low def trying to keep them alive.

    If they are going to keep scaling in the game they need to see to it that if someone is over cap in lvl 80 content by 10%, then they need to be over cap in Edemo by 10%. As it stands now that doesn't happen, both yer stats and yer gear are scaled, and that makes scaling wonky.
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    sobi#1980 said:

    I do feel for you, to have to read all of this. Though, it seems as if you're enjoying it and i think i might me too :). Let me briefly outline my insight into the core topics discussed in this forum, whilst highlighting epic responses from the playerbase, and hopefully that would give you a good insight into these topics.


    SCALING:

    cwhitesidedev#9752 said:



    "Do you and other members of the CDP feel that scaling has any value at all? What about events that all players would like to take part in but can't for example from an experiential standpoint".

    What you call Scaling is making value for newcomers at the detriment of end gamers. First of all, let us clarify that all end gamers have been newcomers but vice versa, not so true. Then lets acknowledge that all end gamers have spend more time and effort in the game than newcomers. Finally, on average, end gamers have spent a lot more resources/money than newcomers. Why then are you sacrificing the latter for the former? Why even sacrifice anyone?
    micky1p00 said:


    Perception of progress:

    "A player who has worked hard for their gear (or spent $) expect to see some benefit even if marginal. If pre scaled player A is 'stronger' than player B, then a good system will maintain this order, scale it, yes, but still Player A will remain > player B.
    This is fundamental to the larger concept of MMO, the eternal hamster wheel where players gear up, become stronger, and get harder enemies. The important part of it, is that if Player A put a year of game time, then they expect it to reflect as compared to player B who didn't. This is the mentioned devaluation of progress, but in any scaling system devaluation expected, the problem is that in the current one it's annulled"
    .

    Bullseye! Is she right or is she right? But it isn't a huge problem for end gamers, that have skill which newcomers haven't yet encompassed. There are actually 2 issues, one is the way in which primary stats like armpen and critical strike and etc are scaled; so effectively making your hard earned power less effective (the most expensive stat in the game per 1k value). The 2nd is described well by gabriel below.


    "Older content has no meaningful rewards. This is the real killer. Higher level/IL character hate scaling because it increases the time needed for the run and they get no real reward for the time they lose. Introducing different tiers of the same dungeon could help as you could give better rewards fo higher tiers".

    Other than rAD, there are no rewards in older dungeons that are to be sought. So first, players are forced to play content that they do not want to, and then they are scaled on top. Bad news. Another issue is that hard earned gear usually has to be replaced with gear that focuses on armpen/critstrike, which is counter intuitive for a progression based game.


    "I (personally) think that scaling, as a concept, is very interesting. For old players, it opens the possibility to keep old content relevant, and this is very important to Neverwinter since just 1 dungeon or trial or skirmish is released per mod. "

    There has to be an incentive to run old content. Giving tiers to each dungeon would more or less may solve this but it will definitely segregate the community and queue times will shoot up.

    My two cents

    Make older content downscaled and upscaled i.e. all players are scaled to a benchmark. Meaning some will upscale and some will downscale. Give good rewards to provide incentive to end gamers. Then, give them the excuse that if you truly are skilled players, why do you need gear? ;P

    Make newer content non-scaled and introduce rare rewards. Let the end gamers grind those rewards for a sense of progression. My previous suggestion in this forum about introducing benchmark timings that increase the chance of the loot the faster the dungeon/trial is completed could really make PUG really hyped in NW.


    "I think MMOs mean different things to different people. For you it is clearly to feel like a God but for others that might not be their primary driver."



    Chris

    I don't understand why it's necessary at all though. why not just make it all level 80? you've just leveled a toon. you can see how long you're at level 70.. who is it serving to have most of the content in the game level 70 instead of level 80? have various difficulties thru the dungeons with varying payouts.. boom problem solved. no difficult scaling equations to try and balance in without having all sorts of bugs arise... yeah? I really don't get why scaling is such a lovebug with the devs... it makes sense to have it for the events because everyone.. but for past dungeons it really doesn't compute for me.. you have to be at least level 70 to play. scaling should be for level 80s of various gear and skill sets.. so basically 99.9 percent of the people playing at any given time are going to be level 80...
    Sorry firesidecat but too many assumptions in your post for me to reply in a meaningful way here. Of note I have explained in previous posts why I think it is important for all players to be able to 'experience' certain types of content. Also of note I have never suggested that everything has scaling applied to it outside of proposing questions to help with the discussion and garner ideas and thoughts.

    Chris
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    Let's talk about progression:

    Progression means 'do this to get that as reward'.

    Which also means that the reward is not available to you unless you do the required steps.

    A good mmorpg experience should have a clearly defined progression so the players can feel that they are achieving something as a result of their play. The question that must be answered is 'Why do I do this'.

    Neverwinter has lost most of the progression mechanisms it had in the pursuit of letting everyone access the entire game with very little effort:
    * People do not bother with running campaigns any more since the rewards they give are small. It used to be that dungeon access required campaign completion.
    * Access to dungeons in random queues is granted at a very low IL that takes very little effort - basically the free kit at 70 and running Undermountain opens all for you

    With the exception of LoMM(that is fine) and ToMM(that is way too hard and negative for the game) there are very few rewards given in NW as a result of extended play.

    There seems to be a thought from the game designers that what people want it all immediately and for free. I beg to differ. To keep people playing there must be a well defined and communicated progression, so people know that if they do 'this', they will be rewarded with 'that'. To have everything available with very little effort just makes people quickly bored and done with the game.

    And really, the only meaningful rewards for progress in a game like NW is access to content, which basically means dungeons.

    And those dungeons should be desirable rewards not just for the sightseeing, each dungeon should offer something that makes it worthwhile to do some limited farming of that specific dungeon. We are not there today, a dungeon is yet-another-run-to-get-AD.

    Hi Mentin,

    Thanks for taking the time to post. Just want to clarify that this is not the case:

    'There seems to be a thought from the game designers that what people want it all immediately and for free. I beg to differ. To keep people playing there must be a well defined and communicated progression, so people know that if they do 'this', they will be rewarded with 'that'. To have everything available with very little effort just makes people quickly bored and done with the game.'

    The game is very big, needs streamlining, fixing/polishing, better discover-ability in terms of systems/mechanics, clearer goals around progression/content, and better reward systems. At a high level I am in agreement with your post. The key is in the execution and discussion around it.

    I would just like us to think more broadly about what experience and relevance means to different types of players.

    Thanks

    Chris
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    sobi#1980 said:

    I do feel for you, to have to read all of this. Though, it seems as if you're enjoying it and i think i might me too :). Let me briefly outline my insight into the core topics discussed in this forum, whilst highlighting epic responses from the playerbase, and hopefully that would give you a good insight into these topics.


    SCALING:

    cwhitesidedev#9752 said:



    "Do you and other members of the CDP feel that scaling has any value at all? What about events that all players would like to take part in but can't for example from an experiential standpoint".

    What you call Scaling is making value for newcomers at the detriment of end gamers. First of all, let us clarify that all end gamers have been newcomers but vice versa, not so true. Then lets acknowledge that all end gamers have spend more time and effort in the game than newcomers. Finally, on average, end gamers have spent a lot more resources/money than newcomers. Why then are you sacrificing the latter for the former? Why even sacrifice anyone?
    micky1p00 said:


    Perception of progress:

    "A player who has worked hard for their gear (or spent $) expect to see some benefit even if marginal. If pre scaled player A is 'stronger' than player B, then a good system will maintain this order, scale it, yes, but still Player A will remain > player B.
    This is fundamental to the larger concept of MMO, the eternal hamster wheel where players gear up, become stronger, and get harder enemies. The important part of it, is that if Player A put a year of game time, then they expect it to reflect as compared to player B who didn't. This is the mentioned devaluation of progress, but in any scaling system devaluation expected, the problem is that in the current one it's annulled"
    .

    Bullseye! Is she right or is she right? But it isn't a huge problem for end gamers, that have skill which newcomers haven't yet encompassed. There are actually 2 issues, one is the way in which primary stats like armpen and critical strike and etc are scaled; so effectively making your hard earned power less effective (the most expensive stat in the game per 1k value). The 2nd is described well by gabriel below.


    "Older content has no meaningful rewards. This is the real killer. Higher level/IL character hate scaling because it increases the time needed for the run and they get no real reward for the time they lose. Introducing different tiers of the same dungeon could help as you could give better rewards fo higher tiers".

    Other than rAD, there are no rewards in older dungeons that are to be sought. So first, players are forced to play content that they do not want to, and then they are scaled on top. Bad news. Another issue is that hard earned gear usually has to be replaced with gear that focuses on armpen/critstrike, which is counter intuitive for a progression based game.


    "I (personally) think that scaling, as a concept, is very interesting. For old players, it opens the possibility to keep old content relevant, and this is very important to Neverwinter since just 1 dungeon or trial or skirmish is released per mod. "

    There has to be an incentive to run old content. Giving tiers to each dungeon would more or less may solve this but it will definitely segregate the community and queue times will shoot up.

    My two cents

    Make older content downscaled and upscaled i.e. all players are scaled to a benchmark. Meaning some will upscale and some will downscale. Give good rewards to provide incentive to end gamers. Then, give them the excuse that if you truly are skilled players, why do you need gear? ;P

    Make newer content non-scaled and introduce rare rewards. Let the end gamers grind those rewards for a sense of progression. My previous suggestion in this forum about introducing benchmark timings that increase the chance of the loot the faster the dungeon/trial is completed could really make PUG really hyped in NW.


    "I think MMOs mean different things to different people. For you it is clearly to feel like a God but for others that might not be their primary driver."



    Chris

    I don't understand why it's necessary at all though. why not just make it all level 80? you've just leveled a toon. you can see how long you're at level 70.. who is it serving to have most of the content in the game level 70 instead of level 80? have various difficulties thru the dungeons with varying payouts.. boom problem solved. no difficult scaling equations to try and balance in without having all sorts of bugs arise... yeah? I really don't get why scaling is such a lovebug with the devs... it makes sense to have it for the events because everyone.. but for past dungeons it really doesn't compute for me.. you have to be at least level 70 to play. scaling should be for level 80s of various gear and skill sets.. so basically 99.9 percent of the people playing at any given time are going to be level 80...
    Sorry firesidecat but too many assumptions in your post for me to reply in a meaningful way here. Of note I have explained in previous posts why I think it is important for all players to be able to 'experience' certain types of content. Also of note I have never suggested that everything has scaling applied to it outside of proposing questions to help with the discussion and garner ideas and thoughts.

    Chris
    if i've misunderstood something along the way mea culpa. but to address the all content by everyone.. for these dungeons the sense of accomplishment is not really there if a fresh 80 can do all the dungeons other than the most recent (and even with scaling they can't as it stands in all honesty, just try to get a group of fresh 80s together to do Tong...) they used to be separated by rare dungeons and epic dungeons. the rare dungeons gave gear that helped level up to the point where it was viable to start doing the epic dungeons. if it's just boom. everyone can do anything there is no carrot to chase. what turns a casual into an endgamer is a clear progression path.
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    sobi#1980 said:

    I do feel for you, to have to read all of this. Though, it seems as if you're enjoying it and i think i might me too :). Let me briefly outline my insight into the core topics discussed in this forum, whilst highlighting epic responses from the playerbase, and hopefully that would give you a good insight into these topics.


    SCALING:

    cwhitesidedev#9752 said:



    "Do you and other members of the CDP feel that scaling has any value at all? What about events that all players would like to take part in but can't for example from an experiential standpoint".

    What you call Scaling is making value for newcomers at the detriment of end gamers. First of all, let us clarify that all end gamers have been newcomers but vice versa, not so true. Then lets acknowledge that all end gamers have spend more time and effort in the game than newcomers. Finally, on average, end gamers have spent a lot more resources/money than newcomers. Why then are you sacrificing the latter for the former? Why even sacrifice anyone?
    micky1p00 said:


    Perception of progress:

    "A player who has worked hard for their gear (or spent $) expect to see some benefit even if marginal. If pre scaled player A is 'stronger' than player B, then a good system will maintain this order, scale it, yes, but still Player A will remain > player B.
    This is fundamental to the larger concept of MMO, the eternal hamster wheel where players gear up, become stronger, and get harder enemies. The important part of it, is that if Player A put a year of game time, then they expect it to reflect as compared to player B who didn't. This is the mentioned devaluation of progress, but in any scaling system devaluation expected, the problem is that in the current one it's annulled"
    .

    Bullseye! Is she right or is she right? But it isn't a huge problem for end gamers, that have skill which newcomers haven't yet encompassed. There are actually 2 issues, one is the way in which primary stats like armpen and critical strike and etc are scaled; so effectively making your hard earned power less effective (the most expensive stat in the game per 1k value). The 2nd is described well by gabriel below.


    "Older content has no meaningful rewards. This is the real killer. Higher level/IL character hate scaling because it increases the time needed for the run and they get no real reward for the time they lose. Introducing different tiers of the same dungeon could help as you could give better rewards fo higher tiers".

    Other than rAD, there are no rewards in older dungeons that are to be sought. So first, players are forced to play content that they do not want to, and then they are scaled on top. Bad news. Another issue is that hard earned gear usually has to be replaced with gear that focuses on armpen/critstrike, which is counter intuitive for a progression based game.


    "I (personally) think that scaling, as a concept, is very interesting. For old players, it opens the possibility to keep old content relevant, and this is very important to Neverwinter since just 1 dungeon or trial or skirmish is released per mod. "

    There has to be an incentive to run old content. Giving tiers to each dungeon would more or less may solve this but it will definitely segregate the community and queue times will shoot up.

    My two cents

    Make older content downscaled and upscaled i.e. all players are scaled to a benchmark. Meaning some will upscale and some will downscale. Give good rewards to provide incentive to end gamers. Then, give them the excuse that if you truly are skilled players, why do you need gear? ;P

    Make newer content non-scaled and introduce rare rewards. Let the end gamers grind those rewards for a sense of progression. My previous suggestion in this forum about introducing benchmark timings that increase the chance of the loot the faster the dungeon/trial is completed could really make PUG really hyped in NW.


    "I think MMOs mean different things to different people. For you it is clearly to feel like a God but for others that might not be their primary driver."



    Chris

    I don't understand why it's necessary at all though. why not just make it all level 80? you've just leveled a toon. you can see how long you're at level 70.. who is it serving to have most of the content in the game level 70 instead of level 80? have various difficulties thru the dungeons with varying payouts.. boom problem solved. no difficult scaling equations to try and balance in without having all sorts of bugs arise... yeah? I really don't get why scaling is such a lovebug with the devs... it makes sense to have it for the events because everyone.. but for past dungeons it really doesn't compute for me.. you have to be at least level 70 to play. scaling should be for level 80s of various gear and skill sets.. so basically 99.9 percent of the people playing at any given time are going to be level 80...
    Sorry firesidecat but too many assumptions in your post for me to reply in a meaningful way here. Of note I have explained in previous posts why I think it is important for all players to be able to 'experience' certain types of content. Also of note I have never suggested that everything has scaling applied to it outside of proposing questions to help with the discussion and garner ideas and thoughts.

    Chris
    if i've misunderstood something along the way mea culpa. but to address the all content by everyone.. for these dungeons the sense of accomplishment is not really there if a fresh 80 can do all the dungeons other than the most recent (and even with scaling they can't as it stands in all honesty) they used to be separated by rare dungeons and epic dungeons. the rare dungeons gave gear that helped level up to the point where it was viable to start doing the epic dungeons. if it's just boom. everyone can do anything there is no carrot to chase. what turns a casual into an endgamer is a clear progression path.
    Hi Firesidecat,

    Thanks for your response. In no way would the intent with scaling be for every player to be able to do everything immediately. I believe i mentioned before (sorry if I didn't) that a goal would be for players to be able to experience new content and events with gating, challenge and reward segmented via 'a' system that we may already have, or that needs refining or reworking (Progression). Beyond that it would be great to make the existing content in the game more streamlined and compelling in a similar way with varying layers of interweaving progression and reward based on the player type. On top of this I/we would also like to see players get to the 'fun' faster in the game. That doesn't mean normalization. I am referring to inclusivity where all players are part of an ecosystem with each player type at different points of progression, reward and with different goals (but all players intersecting even if it is just by being around each other in the game). Part of this would mean streamlining the game so the path to 80 and beyond looks like a tree for example with a tighter funnel being the trunk with better accessibility, discover-ability and tuition of the mechanics and systems.

    These are some thoughts and ideas, not final. But I figure it is time to be a little more precise around our thoughts from the CDP and internally at this stage before we start refining the discussion.

    Thanks Cat.

    Chris
  • oremonger#9999 oremonger Member Posts: 213 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    .


    Post edited by oremonger#9999 on
  • froger#9967 froger Member Posts: 510 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    Some ramblings below.

    Feedback overview: Have a clear path of progression when leveling.

    Feedback goal: Reduce confusion when leveling.

    Feedback functionality: Pre-Campaign: When coming to the game fresh you are very lost with which quest to do and which zone to go to. Also, when leveling you will get quests in many different zones adding confusion as to what to do next. I propose leveling be tied to main story quest completion in each zone. When the story is complete the character level increases, and the next zone unlocks. The markers above the NPC carrying the main quest should be easily distinguishable form side quests or the quest objective should indicate if it main or side. When starting out I spent weeks doing side quests because they can be difficult to distinguish form the main quest. Ideally, when all leveling zones are done you are level 60.

    Legacy Campaign levels 60 – 80: Players should start with Elemental Evil then flow through a campaign progression which gets them through the story of each campaign in a clear manor before unlocking the next campaign. Story completion should not be time gated. Many have asked for the repeatable quest time gates to be reduced or removed, this should be considered as content ages and fewer players engage it.

    In both leveling and campaign the story completion should grant a boon and explain how to complete repeatable quests for additional boons (campaigns). This will introduce players to the boon system early making it an integral part of game play, not something you discover later feeling like all you did was for nothing.

    As a character levels they should get gear to prepare them for the next zone. But froger, they can easily buy superior gear form the seal vendor. I see no problem with buying superior gear form the seal vendor, but the gear should change as you level. Finished a zone? Time for new gear. The grind for seals should be relatively simple for the new player, 400 seals for one piece is discouraging. But perhaps running 2 dungeons is enough for a new piece (the exact cost in time vs reward should be considered for the leveling player) and increase as they player progresses. Better yet put the replacement gear in a level appropriate dungeon drop, so they feel some accomplishment (LoMM gear is a good example of gear that was an upgrade). Even quests can reward seals allowing a player to gear up for the next content. Leave the heartbreak of having to abandon gear you did the grind for something they experience when they get to current content (staring at you elemental set, twisted set, headsman’s set, fey weapons, black ice gear, etc.). Alternatively reduce the requirements for getting and/or restoring this legacy gear. Give the new player a taste of the content and make the gear cheaper to upgrade since it is obsolete. Perhaps 5 edemo gold runs is enough for the twisted set, make SVA/MSVA marks a guarantee when opening the chests and only require a couple of each to upgrade, reduce the refinement points to upgrade legacy weapons and increase the success rate.

    I suppose I want game play and grind to start out easy for the new (causal) player and get progressively harder as they level.
    Dungeon play can still be gated by item level.

    Risks and concerns: This is the wrong CDP for my ramblings. Quests will take too long for someone to want to make another character or too long to keep the new player engaged. Crafting items was not considered. People who did the grind back in the day will be upset new players have it easier (look, I lost count of the number of legendary keys I used to get that last superior mark of stig and how many edemo I didn't open a chest for because it wasn't gold, I get it).

    The game needs new blood and the new blood needs to stick around. Attract the new player and give them a chance to want to take their character form level 1 to endgame.
    Froger - Barbie Girl in a Barbie World - Almost Geared to Be Main Again - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Jade - Cleric - Main - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Magnus - Fighter - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Bardholomew - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone

    Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 668 Arc User
    @froger#9967
    Risks and concerns: This is the wrong CDP for my ramblings. Quests will take too long for someone to want to make another character or too long to keep the new player engaged. Crafting items was not considered. People who did the grind back in the day will be upset new players have it easier (look, I lost count of the number of legendary keys I used to get that last superior mark of stig and how many edemo I didn't open a chest for because it wasn't gold, I get it).

    The game needs new blood and the new blood needs to stick around. Attract the new player and give them a chance to want to take their character form level 1 to endgame.
    Alright so while I already understood we are not caring about my offtopic (or general) opinion, one last thing:
    I think what we are forgetting by attracting all the new players (are we doing that yet? I wouldn't know) is that we should also be attracting vets to stay.
    From my point of view the latest exodus isn't new players. There was always a huge number of new players leaving after a short while, and I can agree that a shorter grind than what WE had (and a better, straight lvling period) would keep more new players, but all I can read while we are talking being inclusive towards new players (including reaching the "fun" faster) is, that we are not attracting vets to stay.

    Yeah, jules, like we need vets jules, all they do is bicker and be moody like you jules!
    Indeed.
    But I also remember that in my hundreds of hours I spent on this game (now that sounds just sad) what kept me playing was vets, was wanting to run with vets, how vets helped me when I got here, how I got the best tips by just being around and reading alliance chat. I loved when I was finally ready to run my first FBI with what was the current meta at that time. I felt honored. I also remember that we had a very different etiquette and tone in game even though we all felt slightly bugged out and ignored sometimes or between catastrophes... there was more inclusivity than we have now.

    But, yeah, one day, if NW starts aging like fine wine now instead of milk, the new players today will be vets, and they won't remember most of the stuff from before M16 (read 15) which I'm sure also has it's upsides.


    - bye bye -
  • froger#9967 froger Member Posts: 510 Arc User
    I can't count the number of great players who helped me along the way who have left the game. I am of the opinion most of the vets who have left are not coming back unless the game returns to it's previous style, which isn't happening. All we can do is look forward and rebuild the player base. Perhaps if we build it, they will come.
    Froger - Barbie Girl in a Barbie World - Almost Geared to Be Main Again - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Jade - Cleric - Main - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Magnus - Fighter - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Bardholomew - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone

    Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer
    > @jules#6770 said:
    > @froger#9967 Risks and concerns: This is the wrong CDP for my ramblings. Quests will take too long for someone to want to make another character or too long to keep the new player engaged. Crafting items was not considered. People who did the grind back in the day will be upset new players have it easier (look, I lost count of the number of legendary keys I used to get that last superior mark of stig and how many edemo I didn't open a chest for because it wasn't gold, I get it).
    >
    > The game needs new blood and the new blood needs to stick around. Attract the new player and give them a chance to want to take their character form level 1 to endgame.
    >
    >
    > Alright so while I already understood we are not caring about my offtopic (or general) opinion, one last thing:
    > I think what we are forgetting by attracting all the new players (are we doing that yet? I wouldn't know) is that we should also be attracting vets to stay.
    > From my point of view the latest exodus isn't new players. There was always a huge number of new players leaving after a short while, and I can agree that a shorter grind than what WE had (and a better, straight lvling period) would keep more new players, but all I can read while we are talking being inclusive towards new players (including reaching the "fun" faster) is, that we are not attracting vets to stay.
    >
    > Yeah, jules, like we need vets jules, all they do is bicker and be moody like you jules!
    > Indeed.
    > But I also remember that in my hundreds of hours I spent on this game (now that sounds just sad) what kept me playing was vets, was wanting to run with vets, how vets helped me when I got here, how I got the best tips by just being around and reading alliance chat. I loved when I was finally ready to run my first FBI with what was the current meta at that time. I felt honored. I also remember that we had a very different etiquette and tone in game even though we all felt slightly bugged out and ignored sometimes or between catastrophes... there was more inclusivity than we have now.
    >
    > But, yeah, one day, if NW starts aging like fine wine now instead of milk, the new players today will be vets, and they won't remember most of the stuff from before M16 (read 15) which I'm sure also has it's upsides.

    Hi Jules,

    Thanks for posting. Neither your or Froger’s posts are off topic. Both of them speak to accessibility. Just want to call that out.

    And I 100% agree that we need to make onboarding, discoverability, tuition, goal recognition and the golden path more effective amongst a plethora of other things.

    Why do you feel no one cares for your opinion?

    Finally in regard to aging it is my hope we can make NW an Evergreen platform but more on that later.

    Thanks

    Chris
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    @cwhitesidedev#9752 Hi, hope you are doing well.

    I am still curious how Cryptic will cope with its current manpower? Past few mods has made it clear that we can at most, expect 1 dungeon per mod, but do you think that if cryptic starts to focus more on other audiences, would there be sacrifices? I feel like accessibility in its own right is very much linked to availability of content. Making something accessible but then failing to give incentive to run that content are two of the same thing. The game is in dire need of some kind of progression. I don't know how endless dungeon fit in the game in your opinion but currently, NW has literally no grind-able content, if i must say. Even TOMM is only really grind-able with the whole guild involved and requires a plethora of resources. After i have done my randoms, which also feel forced, what am i suppose to do? At this point, it feels like a side job to just log in, quickly do randoms and woosh, log out.

    Past few comments i have tried to think of a way to merge content for all audiences, and would love to hear some insight from your end after you have engrossed all the various good ideas in this thread.
  • hawkeyelhawkeyel Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    While I have played more than one Evergreen game some might find them to be a bit of a shock. Why because the first question I often get asked from newer players is what is the end game. Evergreen games have no real end game they are all part of a never ending story. The end game is just the newest part of the story going forward. Just want to make that point more clear for some. I have watch far to many only having a focus on this magic end game idea. But do keep in mind from any that ever took part in a d&d setting at least. The end game is only the latest story the Dungeon Master has given you . But no Dungeon Master is going to just leave that as the only journey that is before you. Good hunting.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,116 Arc User
    In my opinion having content with low level entry like Tirany of dragons or Acquisitions Incorporated has no sense.

    When the mods were introduced the idea was to give leveling players an opportunity to engage with newest content, but I think now is confusing for new players to mix things. Those campaigns should be raised to level 70 and others pre-70 like sharandar too. So the roadmap is clearer for new players.

    just my 2 cents, lol you got everyone to be much more positive, keep the work :D
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • jimmypdtjimmypdt Member Posts: 121 Arc User
    > @giz#2086 said:
    > @cwhitesidedev#9752 One of the worst things that devs did in the game was to change the classes main roles, and they decided for the players what their character's role is now. People chose classes like GWF or SW because they were DPS classes (yes with some off-tank utilities (GWF) or buff/debuff off-heals utilities (SW)-) But all other classes had utility/support builds too: CW had debuff MoF, HR was the second best buffer pre mod 16. But devs changed the main role without thinking about what players wanted to play. And now they decided for the players that a Barbarian is a Tank (with a secondary DPS role) and Warlock is a healer (with a secondary DPS role) and they mindset is to have DPS/DPS classes as optimal DPS compared with DPS/support classes. That makes a discrimination if you play Barbarian or Warlock only for DPS and you haven't any interest to play the support role with them. Different story is with Fighters or Clerics because their main role was support, but they deserves to have a viable DPS path (now that devs decided that they can queue as DPS)
    >
    > What's the general statement for Cryptic and devs? classes with two roles should be penalized for having a second role? Or you want all DPS paths to be the same as effective regardless if they are "pure" DPS classes or not?
    >
    > It's necessary to know if devs wants a gap in damage between classes with two DPS paths versus classes with two roles paths. Because right now you're forcing players to play a role that we don't asked to play on our characters and we want to know if we have some DPS penalization for not being a Ranger, Rogue or Wizard player.
    >
    > Thanks.

    They have said on several posts and streams the all dps paths should be the same regardless if the class is dps/dps or dps/support. They have said they consider each dps paths as it's own *class* so to speak.

    I hope this helps.

    I wish you the best,
    OPTank_
  • mythdemeanourmythdemeanour Member Posts: 87 Arc User
    Feedback Overview:

    Adhering to the logic set out by the actual D&D universe.

    Feedback Goal::

    To point out the ways in which the online game differs from the cannon set forth in the books/modules and trying to avoid the slippery slope of becoming to far gone from the source. This chains with accessibility as players will know what to expect more readily when they first enter the game as a new player having played D&D in the past. Older players too can comfort themselves with the fact that the game will always have set rules it must follow.

    Feedback Functionality:


    From things like having demons and devils on the same map like happens in the new mod without them warring with each other to making early game dragons such an extreme one hit death belittles the lore. I understand that many changes need to be made for the sake of cutting costs (reusing resources) and trying to not make the early game to difficult, but some things just ruin the lore for many of us. On a personal note, when I first started with this game I was terrified to think I was facing a dragon at such an early level, but I steadied my nerves and tried to find a good group to tackle it only to be laughed at in zone chat. Much to my chagrin when I faced it I was confronted by such a sickly specimen that I actually felt sorry for putting it out of its misery. For what was advertised as a "dangerous foe" it was hardly a foe and no where near dangerous. If you need to have an open world boss, you need to calculate the scaling much better to be a challenge to every initial combatant, but that too means addressing the scaling issues prevalent throughout the game.

    Risks and Concerns

    Putting in more work through beta testing/preview server to make sure things adhere closer to the lore becomes more work and thus money. IMO it will be worth it in the long run though, after all there are TONS of ways to check it the path you are taking matches with the books.

    Thanks for reading
  • raiderone000raiderone000 Member Posts: 87 Arc User

    Feedback Overview

    Reduce the difficulty for small guilds in upgrading their stronghold.

    Feedback Goal

    Small guilds are often populated by casual players, as the hardcore crew would have joined or reached a level 20 guild hall sometime ago as those hold the highest benefits for the "bleeding edge" best in slot adventurers.

    Feedback Functionality

    There are a few options here:

    One frequently suggested method is to create a "goods trader" which lets guild masters trade any resource which they have in surplus for any other resource with they are lacking, even if it's at a 2:1 ratio. To facilitate the continued player visitations of the various areas (which I imagine is the reason for the diverse resource pool to begin with), you can limit said trade to be maybe 50,000 outgoing units per week meaning that some grinding is still required.

    Or if you want an astral diamond drain, simply let any guild member purchase said resource with no weekly limit.

    If that's too much coding then the simplest change would be to reduce the cost of all stronghold structures by a significant fixed percentage. Note for those who don't remember - this exact change was already done once years ago, so not only is it do-able but it is certainly time to revisit this option.

    Risks & Concerns

    Guilds already at level 20 might gripe about their perceived loss of "elite" status if every pleb guild is given a handout. Likewise, players not in guilds will feel this change overlooks their own needs. This is exactly what happened the last time the discount percentage was applied, so odds are high it will happen again.

    Many threads have been posted about Small Guild concerns. In DDO, they give bonuses based on amount of players per guild.
    Small, Medium and Large. Small guilds get the biggest bonus to help advancement.

    I would say most Small guilds are filled with beginners and casual players. Especially low level guilds.

    Maybe add dynamic to increase guild rewards based on Guild Size and Guild Level. Lower rewards as guild size n guild level increase. Another issue with guilds is the actual guild vouchers. They need to be increased in amount. And get rid of the
    lowest one. Should be able to get guild vouchers in all quests...

    I for one would like to see the Jubilee Trader be available all year long too... Maybe incorporate guild bonuses into it based on Guild Size.

    And unfortunately crafting took away alot of guild production or modified them to become that more difficult and not worth effort...
This discussion has been closed.