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CDP Topic: Game Content Accessibility

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  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    I think the new player has a very lonely experience. We cant access guilds because we cant message or chat. When i play an mmorpg type game i do so with the idea that i am joining a world full of other players to interact with. Having to play solo for 30 levels before i can even ask to join a guild is a major turnoff. I would hope you can relax the chat restrictions in the future, so that new players like me can interact with others and join a guild. Thats part of the mmo experience, if i wanted to play solo i would go back to my single player games. I just started last night, im on the fence if im going to stay or not. Not being able to interact with players at all is a big downer.

    Hi Roxie,

    I totally agree and thanks for posting. We 100% need to look at how we handle anti spam, farmer systems in regard to new players. Even the messaging around what is required to unlock full functionality is confusing.

    Thanks

    Chris
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    @cwhitesidedev#9752

    Good luck and kudos for doing something that should have been done years ago.

    I haven't read the whole thread but in the first few pages there are enough suggestions that if implemented I might be tempted to put some time and energy back into the game. But as others have said, you have a lot of work ahead of you if you actually want to win back the trust of the player base. Again, good luck.

    I know it's too late but others have covered the game content points I would like to see implemented. But I see something more important than that here and wanted to communicate it.

    Feedback Overview:

    Keep the communication levels high so the community continues to support and give feedback.

    If you want to see what happens to an ignored player base have a look at the many many many warlock (and others) feedback/suggestion threads on the preview forum. They start out full of positivity, positive feedback and suggestions. After a while though it degenerates into an 'Are they even listening?' discussion followed by 'they don't give a rat's **** about the players' which translates into players spending less time (and of course money) in game. Until you get the folks like me that moved on, but keep an eye on what is happening - in case it actually gets better. But some, well, they're gone for good.

    Feedback Goal: Simple, help win back the player base.

    Feedback Functionality:

    A continual and unbroken line of communication with the player base will build loyalty to the game that can't easily be expressed. That increased loyalty to the game will increase retention rates - even in those casual players that haven't invested time or money in the game. Simply by having a strong community that is passionate about the game they play. I was one and helped many many players over the last three years, from teaching dungeon mechanics to helping explain why all these high level players are still wearing lower level items (Demon Lord set). Some of the people I helped as new players are Senior Guild Officers in their own right and are doing what I used to do. But they have become less and less.

    For me and others like me, that lack of communication was actually worse than all the bugged content and ridiculous 'balance/design' changes.

    I could have switched main classes, but why? 'The devs don't care about any of the players' That is what silence communicates to us.

    I was a senior officer in our alliance, we had only three guilds that weren't level 20. Participation rates that were awesome - more than 150 members active in a 30 day period for 9 or 10 of our guilds. I found out this morning that only 3 of our guilds now have more than 100 members active in that 30 day period. That is a huge loss. An unnecessary loss.

    Keeping the communication between devs and players high will help prevent these losses in the future.

    Case in point: Scaling, recently a dev mentioned that one of the actual goals with scaling was to have players with stats at end game caps to get scaled down to the ceiling of what ever zone or area they were going into. That is a hugely important datum. Hugely important. Important to the players. Many players have left because they don't like (read as hate) being scaled to below cap in zones they should by rights be able to stomp their way through without breaking a sweat. Knowing that datum above would have taken some of the hatred out of scaling. It would still be disliked but at least you would know that it is only temporary.

    Risks:

    Minor: You'll get trolls and idiots attacking you or throwing BS ideas out there to confuse and upset others.
    Major: You get caught up in the existing problems and demands at Cryptic and can't keep this format of feedback and input going.
    Major: Your ideas on open communication get hammered by company executives because they aren't what they want to hear or see from you (or us).

    All the best,

    Angels

    Thanks Angel,

    We will do our very best. Not everyone will be happy all the time but we will at the very least be on a shared journey as we evolve the game moving forward and we intend to be as transparent as possible.

    Thanks

    Chris
  • raiderone000raiderone000 Member Posts: 87 Arc User

    Feedback Overview (short description of the proposed feedback):
    Decrease the grind of character development within Guild, Boon and Campaign Progressions...
    by getting all rewards at once... Possibly separate Story Campaign from Boons.
    Reduce the grind for all casual and hardcore players.... Add Dragon Shard system to create Marks.

    Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish):
    Character development combined into one end reward. Providing guild, gear, boon and campaign progression
    during quest rewards. An example of my week, one day grinding guild vouchers, another completing
    character boon story line progression, another grinding AD from Randoms. Another day grinding gear, refining
    stones etc. Help casual and hardcore players a like by making one grind, not many separate grinds.

    Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter):
    Adding Guild Vouchers, Campaign Currency for Boon and Dragonshards that can be combined to provide
    Refining Marks in every quest end reward. Adding System to create Marks Rank (4, 5,6) by Combining
    certain amount of lower Marks.
    I should be able to run any quest and get all based on which Random, Dungeon, Trial or Skirmish.

    Possibly separate Story campaign from Boon progression? Make Story campaign account based and Boon
    Character progression by totally removing Boons from Story Campaign. Stop the Grind of completing quests
    a 100 times before progressing. Complete the Story to unlock Boon progression.

    Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)
    Always the risk is losing money with all the campaign unlocks. But could still have Boon unlock.
    New ingredients needed to produce Dragon Shards for creating Marks etc.
    New bags needed to hold fragment types of Dragon Shards but also new revenue.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    @cwhitesidedev#9752 is there list you already have of topics this thread has brought up? a copy of that might make it easier for us to list the 3 most relevant ideas. maybe start a poll?
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    @sobi#1980 responding to the post directly above mine


    I'm probably alone on this one in the forums but I think maybe there are a lot that do agree with me in game, but i HATE the holy trinity. I prefered the way it was with lifesteal, buff/debuff before personally. but a HUGE margin. I don't want to be a healer. I don't want the hate they get if they're doing their job or not. I don't want to be a tank because of the hate they get, whether they are doing their job or not. and I think a lot of people are with me there. it was one of the things that made this particular mmo stick out from the rest in a very good way. now not so much for just so many reasons. it's the reason that heals and tanks are a little harder to come by. like 3% actually LIKE playing those classes. many people actually liked being buff debuff. and as a dps I really dislike depending on heals to heal me. I like playing with other people but I dislike my health being reliant on them.

    I'm with you to a certain extent. In the early stages of this game damage was not that heavy compared to the overall hit points of a typical DPS or tank. As a DPS I could rely on potions for my healing most if the time. The healer had less focus on healing and could do other things like pushing enemies or buffing with ease (healer meant Cleric at the time).

    Then lifesteal took over and that was bad. I remember groups of 5 DPS steamrolling dungeons because they were able to outheal any damage while dealing massive damage at the same time. And they were even able to do door-to-door pulls. That's the main reason why mod 6 had to do a complete rehaul of the system.

    Personally I'd like to go back to the first system, with less damage, less healing and more use of potions. Nowadays only a tank can get a hit from a boss. This means that the strategy in combat is always the same: tank has to get boss' agro. My suggestion to the dev team would be to go back to mod1-mod2 and play the old epic dungeons. That was Neverwinter at its best.
    you are one of the few that like being heals apparently. the part of the game you dislike is the part i liked best. potions are no good imo. especially with the cooldowns. lifesteal was awesome. heals pushing enemies is also one of the GREAT banes of dps. as I recall heals would get kicked for that particular sin.
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer
    edited December 2019

    @cwhitesidedev#9752 is there list you already have of topics this thread has brought up? a copy of that might make it easier for us to list the 3 most relevant ideas. maybe start a poll?

    Sadly no but honestly the information is most useful from folks who have been reading through.

    I know my 3 for example but I don't want to bias anything by posting them currently.

    Regarding a poll: Personally I would prefer it if it wasn't a poll so people can add short reasons for why they like the ideas they are representing.

    Chris
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    I am starting to notice this topic naturally distil down to what I think a majority have all been saying in different ways. I see it roughly breaking down to the following subtopics. I got it down to 6. I know you want three but I feel all of these are equally important and can't decide on only 3. So I'll list my top 6 and then break it down to 3 so that I can show my train of thought.



    Master/Epic along with Story/Normal versions of dungeons.

    IMO best bang for the buck when it comes to improving the experience for both new and veteran players.

    Revamping the dungeon/quest rewards to be relevant and worth the time/effort.

    I think should be ultimately combined with the above.

    Revisiting Scaling to insure both Veteran and New player concerns are met with regards to progression, access and time/effort -vs- reward.

    While I feel this is VERY important, it is also a very heated topic that deserves it's own CDP and deeper discussion.

    Improving documentation throughout the game to include tooltips and elaborate on damage formulas to make the information accurate, understandable and useful to everyone.

    Second best bag for your buck, very important to New players and Veterans alike.

    Revisiting the need for Timegating content pre level 80, and streamlining the experience.

    While not as important for veteran players this is HUGE for new players. It will allow them to experience all of the Great story content, learn their class, and ultimately be ready for endgame content more quickly.

    Revisiting the need for gating chat for new players.

    This is very important but ultimately this barrier for new players can be worked around with a little help from the community and a better, more noticable explanation of how the new player can find the information they need which should be covered when documentation is improved throughout the game.


    There were also many more valid and important posts about PVP, Access for players with disabilities, Guilds and Alliances and a few more that truly deserve their own CDP but did not really fit in this discussion as I understand its definition.

    So am I right in what I considered the main discussions in this thread? So the goal of the topic from what I understand is to improve player experience and retention at both ends of the player spectrum. Basically bring new folks in and keep them entertained and engaged while also keeping the Veterans challenged, rewarded and entertained. And oh yeah, all of this has to be FUN for all involved. (I knew there was a reason I didn't got into video game development. :p )

    If I have to choose only 3 these are the ones that I think will provide the most impact for the goal I stated above.

    1.) Master/Epic along with Story/Normal versions of dungeons while also revamping the dungeon/quest rewards to be relevant and worth the time/effort.

    2.) Improving documentation throughout the game to include tooltips and elaborate on damage formulas to make the information accurate, understandable and useful to everyone.

    3.) Revisiting the need for Timegating content pre level 80, and streamlining the experience.

    To be honest just these three look like a ton of work that may take a year or more by itself.
    I think these three are pretty self explanatory given the depth that most of the posts went into while presenting them.


    "So for the next and final stage prior to the CDP Accessibility proposal is to list what you feel are the top three ideas that have been raised so far in thread (They can be high level and micro ideas for example High Level: Multiple Types of the same dungeon or Micro: An option that allows you to change 'Telegraph' FX colours palette). Feel free to add your thoughts around them as well. We will let this run for a few days and then I will put a proposal forward on behalf of the CDP that you can all critique before it is handed of to the team." - Chris

    I'm sorry I'm a little slow, but this is the first CDP I have been involved in. I am also used to a more authoritative and defined direction but I see how that could put chris on the spot and take away from the goal of community involvement / feedback.

    well said but my top three would be the first three you mentioned at the top of the post.

    Master/Epic along with Story/Normal versions of dungeons.

    IMO best bang for the buck when it comes to improving the experience for both new and veteran players.

    Revamping the dungeon/quest rewards to be relevant and worth the time/effort.

    I think should be ultimately combined with the above.

    Revisiting Scaling to insure both Veteran and New player concerns are met with regards to progression, access and time/effort -vs- reward.

    While I feel this is VERY important, it is also a very heated topic that deserves it's own CDP and deeper discussion.


    that said I think your top 6 is spot on.
  • oremonger#9999 oremonger Member Posts: 213 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    @thefiresidecat
    I agree about scaling but honestly I think it needs it's own CDP. People have strong opinions about scaling and I think it is going to be a heated and long discussion. I think we have only scratched the surface of that topic here in this CDP.

    In my idea of a perfect scenario the developers would make all dungeons (except leveling) level 80 and split them into Legendary, Epic and Normal versions. Scale new players up and critters down for the normal version with rewards geared toward new players. In the epic version No scaling of players or critters with rewards geared to all players. In the Legendary version No scaling of players and I would scale the critters up and also introduce some sort of modifier like in the MEs or Hunts so that endgame players can bump up the difficulty even more for better rewards.

    Realistically though the effort involved for the developers would be insane and we would still be stuck with high queue times and private groups.

    I can dream though!
    Post edited by oremonger#9999 on
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    @thefiresidecat
    I agree about scaling but honestly I think it needs it's own CDP. People have strong opinions about scaling and I think it is going to be a heated and long discussion. I think we have only scratched the surface of that topic here in this CDP.

    In my idea of a perfect scenario the developers would make all dungeons (except leveling) level 80 and split them into Legendary, Epic and Normal versions. Scale new players up and critters down for the normal version with rewards geared toward new players. In the epic version No scaling of players or critters with rewards geared to all players. In the Legendary version No scaling of players and I would scale the critters up and also introduce some sort of modifier like in the MEs or Hunts so that endgame players can bump up the difficulty even more for better rewards.

    Realistically though the effort involved for the developers would be insane and we would still be stuck with high queue times and private groups.

    I can dream though!

    I think scaling is an emergency personally. I do think it's the main reason the game just isn't fun for just about anyone at the time. it's a base problem that affects everything. I also don't think it's a heated conversation as a whole.
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer
    Quick reminder that the focus of the CDP now is to pick the three ideas you liked the most in regard to the topic of the thread: Accessibility.

    Oremonger did a pretty good summary above (Many thanks Ore) although I would recommend (if you have time and haven’t done so already) reading the parts of the thread that interest you the most so you can get up to date on the discussion and details before picking your top three.

    Thanks

    Chris
  • oremonger#9999 oremonger Member Posts: 213 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    .
    Post edited by oremonger#9999 on
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    @thefiresidecat
    I agree it is emergent, but I also know that the combined problems in this game are like a BIG ELEPHANT and unfortunately the only way for the developers to eat that big elephant is one bite at a time. I think this is why Chris asked us to limit ourselves to three subtopics. Maybe it is like a developer form of Triage. Unfortunately I think they are using the Combat form of Triage and not the Civilian form i.e. fix this thing that can sorta work first instead of fix this thing that is about to die first.

    I think I remember reading a post by @noworries#8859 discussing some upcoming changes to scaling over in the Preview forums. Honestly I would like to see it done away with all together along with Random queues, but then I remember talking to a new guild member about their experience in dungeons and I realize something has to be done. I am still not sure scaling (current form) is or will ever be the answer though. I have not done lower level content since MOD 16 or done any dungeon training runs with new guild members in that content. All because of scaling. I feel your pain man.

    I asked for a poll in this and another thread for this reason. There are several (in our opinion) emergent problems with this game and many of us have passionate views about those that affect us. Emergent problems for us may not seem to be emergent to the developers. (".... in a good place.") I think a poll to help organize or rank topics would help prioritize what is discussed in future CDPs given that we can only cover one topic per month.

    Some things truly are more important than others. Triage... I have my fork and knife let's eat.

    if everything were level 80 and they kept the old fashioned some dungeons are "easy" building up to quite difficult, with rewards that build up the new player and commiserate with the time spent and difficulty for the longer term player, I think everyone would be taken care of. I have no wavering in my certainty of the issues and their importance. the three I went with are all part of the same three sided coin imo. I honestly think those things fixed/added would make the game a better place for everyone new and old. the game is broken atm. seriously. those are the main of a fix imo.

    the "good place" thing couldn't be more dismissive could it? it's always been a hot button for me.
  • shrineerune#9386 shrineerune Member Posts: 48 Arc User

    The 3 things that stood out to me :

    1.) Better education of how to play for the new player
    - Better Tool Tips, Instructional Prompts , practice versions of dungeons , some level of co-operative help

    2.) More ways / reason to progress
    - Story progression , selectable dungeon difficulty ( tarokka cards system) , Endless dungeon , scaling down caps addressed/removed

    3.) Better Accessibility for players with a disability
    - colour swap options for red attack zones , alternative controller support, other controls to graphic effects to assist with visual based disabilities.

    ^^^^ This, exactly.
    If I had to distill the most important thing for myself in each area it would be:
    1) Better tool tips
    2) Clearer and more specific to character story progression
    3) Reaching out and working with a group like Able Gamers Foundation
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    From my side the three points would be:

    - different levels of dungeons with according rewards and unique reward table for each dungeon
    - revisiting scaling
    - bringing back control as a part of the game
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    @sobi#1980 responding to the post directly above mine


    I'm probably alone on this one in the forums but I think maybe there are a lot that do agree with me in game, but i HATE the holy trinity. I prefered the way it was with lifesteal, buff/debuff before personally. but a HUGE margin. I don't want to be a healer. I don't want the hate they get if they're doing their job or not. I don't want to be a tank because of the hate they get, whether they are doing their job or not. and I think a lot of people are with me there. it was one of the things that made this particular mmo stick out from the rest in a very good way. now not so much for just so many reasons. it's the reason that heals and tanks are a little harder to come by. like 3% actually LIKE playing those classes. many people actually liked being buff debuff. and as a dps I really dislike depending on heals to heal me. I like playing with other people but I dislike my health being reliant on them.

    I'm with you to a certain extent. In the early stages of this game damage was not that heavy compared to the overall hit points of a typical DPS or tank. As a DPS I could rely on potions for my healing most if the time. The healer had less focus on healing and could do other things like pushing enemies or buffing with ease (healer meant Cleric at the time).

    Then lifesteal took over and that was bad. I remember groups of 5 DPS steamrolling dungeons because they were able to outheal any damage while dealing massive damage at the same time. And they were even able to do door-to-door pulls. That's the main reason why mod 6 had to do a complete rehaul of the system.

    Personally I'd like to go back to the first system, with less damage, less healing and more use of potions. Nowadays only a tank can get a hit from a boss. This means that the strategy in combat is always the same: tank has to get boss' agro. My suggestion to the dev team would be to go back to mod1-mod2 and play the old epic dungeons. That was Neverwinter at its best.
    you are one of the few that like being heals apparently. the part of the game you dislike is the part i liked best. potions are no good imo. especially with the cooldowns. lifesteal was awesome. heals pushing enemies is also one of the GREAT banes of dps. as I recall heals would get kicked for that particular sin.
    That's mainly because control was not needed at some point in the game, as you could simply DPS everything down. That's more or less the point when this game started to lose steam (mod 5). I have horrible memories of our teams of five DPS killing everything on sight while standing in red because lifesteal enabled us to outheal any kind of damage. The paingiver chart did more damage to this game than everything else.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    Some of these more recent comments have refreshed my memory.

    Before I move onto my three best suggestions, I would like to clarify something. Tier based dungeon have two main purpose in my eyes. First, it will gate the less experienced players to where they belong and thus increase their chance to clear a scaled down dungeon which would otherwise be difficult; second, there is now no need for scaling of end gamers as they have their master/legendary tiers to play with other well geared players.

    However, there is a confusion between tier based system and revamping the rewards for each dungeon. If you tier each dungeon, the above two reasons are not enough to make players play them. A good example would be LOMM. Why would i play LOMM, if lets say because of the tier system, i am bound to get good allies but the fact of the matter still remains that on average, a 25-30mins run will yield me a measly 15-25kAD and other non-existent rewards? The whole purpose of grading is to scale the rewards for the higher tiers. Don't forget that PuG is still an option if you wanted to avoid having matched with under geared players in LOMM and so i really think that the main purpose of grading dungeons was to scale their rewards so that end gamers have something to grind. The grading and revamping of rewards are part of the same system for the former to even yield any result in my opinion.

    My biggest concern still remains, that is that grading will segregate the community and that would make PuG the only viable method of playing. That's a vision I would avoid following if I was cryptic. It just takes one look around the gaming industry to see that hardly anyone likes to wait for a group to PuG for a dungeon and a big example of this is League of Legends. I still remember that there was a time when you had to wait 10 mins for a queue and that caused a huge uproar in the forums. If you didn't know, the queue times in League can be as little as 0 seconds. People just like to just go online, play a quick PVP game and log out and I think that this trend will follow for many years to come. Not only that, if we then separate the lower tiers from the veterans, they might not have any source of inspiration to gear up because we are effectively building an imaginary wall between them and the vets.

    Progression = Grind and that is the sad truth. No game has enough resources to sate its players with new content every hour, 7 days a week. My 2 cents would be to focus on retaining as much of the losing playerbase as possible and then target the newcomers. I think, a quick change to how the game looks after you turn lvl 70 would be a quick shot at this and the gain would be massive.

    My dilemma still remains. NW cannot compete with PVP than its competitors out there, but it can with PVE and its combat. Can you make your PVE resemble PVP so that each dungeon run is different from the previous one? That in my eyes would be a quality content because it has no end limit to how it can be played and choice is what players demand. I think a huge part of that would be how combat is designed in the game to be as linear as possible. DPS are basically numbers and so are healers and tanks. Gabriel suggested to introduce another factor into the game ontop of the holy trinity (tank, healer, dps) and that is control. Making combat interesting would in return make each dungeon run interesting. You might be thinking that this suggestion might just be aimed at end gamers but it doesn't take long to realize that it'll take only so long for one person to go through the story mode, what does he do next? Probably the best answer would be to explore the vast adventurous world, but you know the answer to that.


    My 3 suggestions

    Revamping rewards + Class update.
    Endless Progression (at least until next module)
    Tooltip revamp / Lvl 70+ revamp.
  • shakinggamer#3136 shakinggamer Member Posts: 66 Arc User


    Feedback Overview
    I would like to propose having a “barracks” of shared companions available on an account for both existing and future characters.

    Feedback goal
    I believe this will reduce redundancy of companions across an account and open the possibility of quickly being able to slot any companion from the shared barracks. If a new or existing player decided they had not found the right class for them during levelling, any companions they had acquired from any source would be available for another character on that account.

    Feedback Functionality
    Using the existing UI, a player would be able to choose any companion to assign to the appropriate slot type available on that class from the shared barracks. Companions would still be able to be upgraded in the same fashion and those companions would be accessible on the account.

    Risks & Concerns
    As a consumer of the product none, in fact – I think I would probably look to upgrade other companions.

    History
    I recently had in it mind to create a fighter as I actually enjoy tanking and wanted to see how it felt using another class. It quickly became apparent that I would need to be levelling up another set of companions. This felt a little bit disheartening as I already have several legendary companions on my Paladin. Of course, then I realised why I wouldn’t be using the Paladin for anything other than a tank as I am already in the process of upgrading outgoing healing companions for my Warlock!

    Thanks
    Black

    Cool idea Blackmagid.

    Chris
    they should do the same thing for mounts i have mounts on a charecter i ddo not play anymore that i whould hate to lose
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