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Official M16: Barbarian Feedback

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  • psonnwroth#9192 psonnwroth Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    @obsidiancran3 I rebuilt my toon and then completed 3 DHE's, Death Forge and Dread Spire in Dread Ring quickly and without falling. However, those stupid armless rotters got me twice! LOL! Then, I went to IWD and took on Biggrin, 6 Frost Giants, 8 young Rhemorhaz and two more DHE's. I fell 3 times in Biggrins Tomb, but completed it quickly enough. Then I looked over my CombatLog and I am averaging about 4 times higher DPS now. I haven't tested River District, Chult or Ravenloft yet, but for now I'm happy enough that IWD and DR are at least playable. Thanks for the assist :D
  • psonnwroth#9192 psonnwroth Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    Today I decided to do a more in depth comparison and ran through Dread Legion solo in mod 15 early this morning to get a baseline. I completed it in 11 minutes and 15 seconds without any deaths and no real difficulty. I've been doing it for quite a while. Then I tried it in mod 16 at level 75. OMG! I got slaughtered by the first mob very quickly several times, so I finally used a daily, got past the first mob only to be slaughtered by the second one. Withdraw. Okay, how about Master of the Hunt (a level 64 skirmish). Hahaha! I got past a few mobs with more deaths than downed mobs. Withdraw again. WOW! Really? Alright. How about a level 54 dungeon 21 levels below me. Should be easy, right? Nope. Sure I got to the final battle with Karrundax eventually after numerous deaths and having to use dailies with every minor boss. I even killed 8 or 9 baby dragons, but never got to Karrundax and had to withdraw once again. Geez! Well, I knew it was probably a lost cause, but decided to make an attempt at Chult. LOL! I should have my socks blown off, but what the heck, right? Amazingly, I completed 2 Patrols easily. About like it i in mod 15. Yes, 3 lions killed me once, but everything else was normal. I had to work for it, but no where near as hard as a level 54 dungeon required!!! That's messed up. I can solo for high silver or low gold in Throne of the Dwarven Gods in mod 15 easier than a level 54 dungeon in mod 16. I do a lot of solo play. It will be very limited now and all those leveling players that depend on advanced players to help them through the higher level dungeons better be ready to do it on their own because we are useless to them now and will probably just stop running them altogether. I haven't been able to attempt regular content with a 5-man team, but I am terrified that it will be just as disastrous. So long AD. Holy HAMSTER Batman, it isn't worth more than an hour per dungeon and a dozen deaths!
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Caverns is bugged at the last boss, it’s not you. :)

    That said zone scaling is better than dungeon scaling, so if you are doing 70 zones you need at least 50k in ArP, Accuracy and Crit Strike after scaling.

    But @noworries#8859 assures us we just don’t understand scaling and it’s all good. :anguished:
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    So I finally resumed leveling the Bbn again and took the time to play through the first Expedition (Catacombs to Twisted Caverns) as Blademaster.

    Aside from the inherent issue with being scaled down from level 73 to 71, (I mean is that really needed?) it was a mixed bag. On the one hand the DPS of the Baldemaster is clearly superior to the DPS of the Sentinel, on the other hand even in Rage mode the Blademaster took a bunch more damage as well. Which is good, you can be safer and slower or faster but riskier.

    However the problem that people have been talking about with the Sprint became very apparent when I got to the Manticore at the end of the Expedition.

    1) There is a delay between hitting Tab and actually moving. This means you are more likely to get hit by red zones.
    2) The lack of immunity frames on the sprint means once moving when the attack resolved you still get smashed by it.

    In comparison when playing as Sentinel these problems just don't exist. Hit shift and block immediately. This makes a stark contrast in terms of "get out of Dodge" moments for the 2 paths, and affects the play experience depending on the path you choose.


    @psonnwroth#9192 I do note that Blademaster Rage only gives an extra 15% DR, so if you are not up near the Defense cap for a zone it may effectively be doing nothing.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    ok, letme try some feedback about possible changes for now for bladmasters.

    not so fast: My first problem is the concept of a melee dps slowing enemies. Letme explain: the idea to slow, for range dps, is hold the advance of your target, grant safe distance . If you are a defender, hold your enemies around you defend that range classes to the same advance. BUT If you are a dps melee… you can only disable or mitigate your enemies to be safe or effective.
    So… that is it. I think, despites to trample the fallen, not so fast should prone for bladmasters and maybe slow by sentinels.

    Raging strikes - not sure if works like whratfull determination… but well, you should sustain or even double that full effect when barbarians are under the effect of battlerage. Trample of fallen is too much superior choice for now.

    Impatience/steady rage - that are illogical choices... If you got rage dealing damage, and want have rage to do even more damage... so the better is improve your damage to get more rage. is a cicle. Unless the passive rage gain are really impressive using that class features - that is not the case - that are wasted slots.

    Battle fury. I need to insist… battle cry powers are the symbol of barbarians in every game, and not to being only support powers. Every game a barbarian have some kind of might leap, spinning strike and some really usefull battle cry. You should really think about add some mark system to batte fury for self use.

    roar: or improve damage or improve effect. that is not a impressive rage or damage source for now. be bad in 2/3 things dont make you solid for overall, even with interrupt.

    spinning strike: feated or not... that is not a great choice. maybe should cost less Ap to use, putting some cooldown or side effect in the end.
  • davidmokidavidmoki Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    Hi @asterdahl ,
    Years ago when I signed up to be a GWF, I wanted an viable dps class that could do comparable damage to other classes, Barbarian (Blade Master) is very far from it.
    You know how cleric and fighter have filler dps paths that are not actually dps but just something on side so this classes could do dailies, but in actual hard content these "dps classes" are not viable at all?
    Well, that is what you did to GWF, our viable dps is dead and blade master feels just like those fillers classes, now Barb is tank that happens to have a filler dps path just in case your friends don't need a tank, and that is just not acceptable, we are a dps class that happens to have a filler tank role, not the other way around.
    I refuse to keep playing this game until we can do the same damage as wizards and hunters.
    You may reply me and say that fighter and cleric dps paths are supposed to have the same damage as tooms with two dps paths, but we all know that is not truth, the dps classes of cleric and fighter are filler and not the reason why people play those classes.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 345 Arc User
    I'm enjoying laughing at my friend about this, but he's not really finding it funny. Playing tank spec he refers to his shift (he said shift but it's whichever one completely drains stamina in a few seconds) button as his suicide button because when it wears off he dies in the first two hits.
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    I apologize for the egregious animation issues that were occurring over the last few weeks on preview. We identified a number of longstanding animation and server syncing issues that have been in the engine since Neverwinter's launch. Many of these issues caused at-wills of lower or higher speeds to deal more or less damage than expected.

    Some new code was written to compensate for these issues, but we've been ironing out the kinks as a result. We believe most of these issues are now resolved, but please continue to report any that you observe. We appreciate it!

    Could this new code help fix the ranger at-will Rapid Strike too by chance? Cause it's still as bugged as ever on preview.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Battle rage vs battle logistic.

    I think that was the biggest problem for now. This module screwed up
    GWFS by 5 steps:
    1 - we - still - got rage dealing damage by a amount "x".
    2 - atwills, in general, do less damage
    3 - encounters and dailys, in general, do more damage
    4 - encounters and dailys have less frequency to use now
    5 - battle rage should, by logic, be used to improve your main source of damage. In the past, atwills, now, encounters and dailys.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lets organize that topics. To active battle rage fast as possible, what you need to do is… active your encounters. Roar itself is not enough to do that, so, even featad by relentless, you need more or less use your entire rotation to have enough rage.
    … now come the problem. You got battle rage, that means, more damage bonus to explore your main sources of damage, right? well, you don’t have encounters to use because there are in cooldown during battlerage. So, what you will do is… hit by weaks atwills.
    Ok, battle rage expire, my encounters still in cooldown. What i should do? Still hit by atwills, more slowing and dealing 10-15% less damage than before. After 5 secs, my encounters back and… what I will do? Use that encounters to got battle rage again. With luck I just expend two encounters now. Ok, I will use one encounter with 10-15% damage bonus… well… iam speaking here about 30 secs to fight and note: using battle fury that situation can be even worse
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    you have a lot to ways to explore that problem... for now, really, think about.

    1 - encounters and atwills should have a fixed rage gain. that include battle fury
    2 - roar should give to you 60% of a total rage gain even if not effected by escalating rage.
    3 - over improve stead rage (5% or 10% per sec even if not effected by escalating rage)
    4 - impatience, if still exist, should works like a stack bonus per sec for your next attack.
    5 - escalating/relentless is the face of the problem... thats like you take what battle rage/rage gain +/-should be, divide in two, and penalize your player for no matter the choice. well... improve relentless to +5% bonus and ignore -5% of escalating rage if dont affect roar/stead rage
  • drumon88drumon88 Member Posts: 142 Arc User

    adinosii said:

    The gap between “invested heavily” and “just starting” is much reduced, which is good for the game. But it still exists

    Well, I'm not sure I agree with that. I think the gap was reduced too much. Consider what would happen if the gap was eliminated altogether. Sure, there would be some differences between players because of experience and practice, but gear improvements would not exist because everyone would have the exact same stats and be capable of doing exactly the same damage.

    I am sure there are players that would like such games, but I'm not in that group. For me, improving my character through gear upgrades is a very significant part of what makes the game fun for me. By devaluing my improvements, some of the fun is taken away.

    There are too many changes of this type in M16.
    • Reducing primary ability (STR/DEX/etc) bonuses from 1% to 0.25%.
    • Reducing the stats given by runestones, while at the same time massively increasing stats given by companion gear.
    • Changing 500 points = 1% to 1000 points = 1%, cuts the contribution of enchantments in half.
    • Making "almost BiS" gear very easily available.
    • Making many (most?) feats irrelvant.
    • Making boons only give an insignificant amount of fixed, static points.
    • Adding the "Combined" stats, which makes easily obtainable gear give an even higher percentage of total stats.
    Basically, the motivation to work hard to improve the character is being reduced when the improvements are not meaningful.

    My conclusion is that the game is deliberately being changed to appeal to a specific target audience, which I unfortunately do not belong to.
    Well i love that the gap is decreaased, and everyone should rejoice.
    But the problem that it is currently with Barbarian is with the choices of the powers it has.
    Blademaster's has 4 atwills, in which only 3 i could use
    it has 10 encounters which only less than a half are worth using.
    it has 8 class features, which less than 3 are usefull.
    Dailies are useless
    and Feats, only 1 Feat is interesting and decent.

    So now the only gap that should be there, it should be the skill gap, and the Developer clearly didn't achieved this with Barbarian, because the quality of dem powers is bad, i like that everythin got separated in their categories, this is for DPS and this is for TANK, but he didn't made a choice of A or B, he didn't gave more variety even thou it's less to balance.. so he only created the following
    2 Paths, Different class mechanics, but the rest is still unfinished, i do not think that besides the class mechanics the class has enough to indentify the paths as DPS or TANK. IMO @asterdahl should go back and rethink it.

    He needs to make a proper choice of all of the Powers
    4 atwills
    10 encounters
    8 class features
    5 Dailies
    and 10 Feats.

    currently only
    3 atwills are worth using
    6 encounters
    3 class features
    0 Dailies
    1 Feat.

    I'd like to know which 6 encounters you consider "worth using" because right now I'm only seeing Bloodletter+bloodspiller, Hidden Daggers, and Axestorm for Blademaster (even talented, NSF is a significant net dps loss over HD+axestorm, it doesn't proc nearly enough, and Might+Mightier Leap is janky and overly time consuming to use as anything other than an opener in solo content). IBS, especially if talented, MIGHT have a place but IMO too many boss fights have adds and going with only HD and the pathetic damage of your at-will as an AoE is asking for trouble.
  • graydoomgraydoom Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 23 Arc User
    Ok, where I start... ok
    1- Not So Fast and Rentless Speed - please rise magnitude to something about [300 or 400], now it procs with Rentless Slash, ok but still too low damage to keep in encounter's slot, so try to make it better, and might leap, still dont see to much use for this, maybe if you guys add some stun or something like control or daze mobs, it could be better...
  • hoveristhoverist Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    skills must be good in themselves. without improvement feats...
  • hoveristhoverist Member Posts: 37 Arc User

    hoverist said:

    skills must be good in themselves. without improvement feats...

    Thats exactly how i said it too.
    Obviously this is how i thought of the structure of the Feats, since there are Shared Powers both TANK and DPS can access them, therefore using the Feats to enhance the Shared Encounters/atwills/Dailies/Class features towards more Damage for Blademaster or more Surviability for Sentinel, would leave room for the unique powers to be strong by themselves. But for some reason @asterdahl doesn't want to understand this, all i am trying is to create diversity/ variety and also have Choices, on how Barbarian is released in m16 it doesn't leave room to switch powers.. i mean there aren't many powers, yet because the developer doesn't seem to accept my idea, i think it is in the end such a waste... I like the revamp, i just do not like how he has done the Feats, some class feats, and Dailies..
    I have been writing this since the patch in which these feats appeared.
    I don’t like the fact that if you don’t use that skill that is specified in feat, then you don’t have any feat at all. This is a very bad skill trait. lack of variation.
    and if they do not imply variability, then why are there more than two available at-will, more than two daily, and so on.
    My opinion: feats should work when choosing any skills and remain relevant in any style of play.

    and I don’t understand why @asterdahl ignores all messages about feats?
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    to be honest, the idea to improve a encounter/class feature are not bad itself. the order of that feats are the first problem. lets supose this scenario (ignoring tier 4).

    tier 1: relentless speed vs brutal critical: buff both even w/o change concepts and you have options here.
    tier 2: mighthier leap vs overpenetration. if you adapt yourself to miss your first might leap, why not?
    tier 3: indomitable rage vs relentless battlerage: buff or add more powers to indomitable and you have two solid options here.
    tier 5: escalating rage vs bloodspiller: if bloodpiller only buff the damage of restoring strike w/o penalitys you have a big dilemma here.

    ... anyway, is more easy fix than screw up bladmasters now.
    Post edited by rafamarques#5700 on
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    hoverist said:

    hoverist said:

    skills must be good in themselves. without improvement feats...

    Thats exactly how i said it too.
    Obviously this is how i thought of the structure of the Feats, since there are Shared Powers both TANK and DPS can access them, therefore using the Feats to enhance the Shared Encounters/atwills/Dailies/Class features towards more Damage for Blademaster or more Surviability for Sentinel, would leave room for the unique powers to be strong by themselves. But for some reason @asterdahl doesn't want to understand this, all i am trying is to create diversity/ variety and also have Choices, on how Barbarian is released in m16 it doesn't leave room to switch powers.. i mean there aren't many powers, yet because the developer doesn't seem to accept my idea, i think it is in the end such a waste... I like the revamp, i just do not like how he has done the Feats, some class feats, and Dailies..
    I have been writing this since the patch in which these feats appeared.
    I don’t like the fact that if you don’t use that skill that is specified in feat, then you don’t have any feat at all. This is a very bad skill trait. lack of variation.
    and if they do not imply variability, then why are there more than two available at-will, more than two daily, and so on.
    My opinion: feats should work when choosing any skills and remain relevant in any style of play.

    and I don’t understand why @asterdahl ignores all messages about feats?
    I think "any skills" might be a bit much, and would likely lead to relatively dull feats, but a more open-ended approach would still be good, and SOME passive bonus tacked on so you don't have a dead-weight choice when you get a feat before you get the power it affects would seem like an intuitive step.

    EDIT:

    Ok, I've looked at rogue and ranger. Barbarian feats should be like those. It would be SO easy to fix the first two Sentinel tiers, just for example; the underlying playstyle ideas are pretty sound:

    Frustrating Slash: when you hit with an at-will power, you gain increased threat generation and stamina regeneration for 10 seconds (tooltip should include amounts)[preserves intent: at-will use increases threat output, provides a minor defensive benefit, doesn't lock in a single power)
    Leap Into Action: When you use Mighty Leap, you gain 5000 power and defense and pulse for threat three times in a 30ft sphere for the next 6 seconds [preserves intent: Mighty Leap as an opener, provides benefit in solo and pvp content, and offers a tool for picking up scattered mobs who might otherwise rush the healer]

    Sure Slam: Your at-will powers have a 10% chance to increase the magnitude of your next attack with a different at-will by 100. The attack that consumes this buff cannot reapply it [there, just like that, you're not locked in to both of your at-will picks, it preserves intent, and attack speed means that Sure Strike is still the best trigger power for this effect. Bounding slam is nice, I like it, but this effect makes sense with any combination of barbarian attacks]

    Indomitable Might: Your single-target encounter powers gain bonus magnitude based on your remaining health, up to 200 when at full health. [preserves function, but opens up to different power use, and clarifies that this feat doesn't make your powers worse than baseline when near death]

    Actually, let's keep going.

    Disarming Takedown: Rename to Unstoppable Advance: When Unstoppable, your control and movement powers increase your targets' physical damage taken by 10% for 10 seconds [preserves intent and theme, opens up options, gives actual incentive to use Not So Fast]

    On the Move: When you use an encounter power, your and allies' run speed is increased by 20% of your Rage at the time of activation.

    Tier 4: We have 5 choices for dailies, and a 3 minute cooldown on one of our two daily slots, when you (understandably) can't swap out powers that are on cooldown, is just unacceptable. Just throw the whole tier out and start over.
    Post edited by fenrir4life on
  • hltvproxy#7417 hltvproxy Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    I don't know if it's a bug or intended, but Not So Fast slows only currently targeted enemy.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Sure Slam, aside from being overly restrictively designed, does not appear to be working as advertised- with a 10% chance, it SHOULD proc every three full combos, more often than not. It does not do so, and only the fear that Indomitable Might may reduce your IBS damage below baseline at low health, when you most need burst, makes it worth taking... and in reality, it makes more sense to ignore the cool-in-concept but unrewarding-in-practice Bounding Slam entirely and take neither feat.

    Threatening Presence and Mighty Vitality should be rolled into one ability. If you're trading power for health, you should be getting a threat buff to compensate.
    Post edited by fenrir4life on
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Ok, for now, that will be my first and last feedback based in the live experience. first to all, i insist... the main problem is what i said previously: being "E" a encounter feat and "M" a mechanichal feat, the order "E x E" and "M x M" are terrible and frustrating choices

    well... that are my live encounters: not so fast, might leap/ibs (both feated) and bloodletter. the first thing to say: is possible use not so fast w/o feat, but not might leap. in fact, mightier leap is not that bad being funny like you said, but, in a lot of situations, dont work. the other thing is, maybe because of that you think that was a great feat, but when you miss your jump attack, you build rage like if you have hitted some enemies. that means, that bug hide some negative aspects of that power.

    well, first: i think you should add some effect to might leap. two, mightier leap should be reworked to have 3 stacks. and again, should antagonize to overpenetration.

    not so fast: the reason to use that even w/o feat is because trample of fallen. relentless speed should in my opinion extend the control duration to 10 secs and maybe ad some dot effect, 10 magnitude per sec during 10 secs. if every "tick" works like a control for bonus porpose, can be a way to work against immune targets. relentless speed should antagonize with brutal criticals, up to 5 rage per critical OR 2 per hit.

    Ibs: i miss the multi target component of that power. indomitable rage, in my opinion, should steal for ibs a steel slam effect. we alread have frenzy that become obsolete during the last changes and need be improved. that feat should antagonize to relentles battlerage,

    bloodletter: first... not only because the problems of game for now, in a lot of situations a healer cant protect the entire party. in fact, the most of healers dont know play as a healer even if everbody stay close. second, again, we alread have frenzy and should have a solid reason to use that as single target... well, you should think about bloodpiller be a resonable way to make you still alive. full heal, temporary hp, heal over time... i dont know. if good enough, can be a option to escaling rage.


    now... tier four. first, use dailys is really frustrating now. but have feats improving two unusual dailys... well... alavanch of steel+steel slam works fine. but... avalanch of steel dont need new effects to be good. if you cut 2 secs of animation, i said, two secs, you solve that problem. spinning strike is a different story. why i should use a daily of 750 magnitude that expose me but not adamantine strike that do more damage, debuff and take the same time to cast? anyway... if you want something great to that daily you should, by feat, up that damage to 1200 (900 w/o feat), being a "alpha" AOE daily choice. that against some new mechanical feat to be created. in my opinion, some one that give A.P when active battlerage.

    about frenzy... you really should think about improve that magnitude to 900, being our "alpha" single target encounter. roar/battle fury, class features, etc still need some "love" but we alread said enough about.
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