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Official M16: Barbarian Feedback

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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I don't play GWF for one obvious reason, there is no diversity in builds at all and the class feels monotone since ages. Recognizing that same could happen in mod 16 is pretty sad. Dagger.. IBS... At Will for nearly 5 years now. Something new would be awesome, maybe Hairpin with a "kneefall animation" forward .. IBS... At Will for the next 5 years?
  • patcherrkmpatcherrkm Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 127 Arc User
    Whoever determined the encounters used for sharps test is clueless. Stuck in mod 15 and either skewed the damage lower on purpose or is just ignorant. I would like to think it was just innocent but I feel there is an agenda.
  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Member Posts: 75 Arc User

    Whoever determined the encounters used for sharps test is clueless. Stuck in mod 15 and either skewed the damage lower on purpose or is just ignorant. I would like to think it was just innocent but I feel there is an agenda.

    Then why don't you follow the test methodology and post an ACT log with better results?
    Charisma was my dump stat.
  • hercules125hercules125 Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    Just finished playing with my Barbarian the last couple of days:

    1. DPS levels are "meh", significantly lower than on the live server. Seems to be a theme with most of my characters. A slight bump of about 10-15% would make it more palatable for current players.

    2. Survivability is down the toilet. "Battle Rage" provides almost no damage mitigation vs what we have now on live. Considering the class still has no dodge mechanic, this change makes no sense. It also seems to take a lot more effort to get battle rage up to 50%, vs what we have on the live server - why?

    3. The animations for several of the new at-wills feel very clunky, almost to the point of being unusable.

    4. Daggers has been nerfed to the point it will never be used. The new Axestorm, or whatever it's called, will probably take its place, which begs the question - why nerf the original power, then create a new redundant power that most players will choose instead?
  • themule#2469 themule Member Posts: 26 Arc User

    I’ve done it. If I wasn’t working so hard in real life I would. I’ll see if one of my guild mates will do it for me. Objectively though if you can’t see the problems in his rotation, then you are still playing a gwf, not a barb.

    So you can't provide us with your ACT log, fine, but why don't you just tell us what rotations are you using? The reason I'm asking is that I came up, after testing various powers, with exaclty the same rotations @rjc9000 used. HD, AS, NsF (to proc Trample the Fallen) on mobs, HD, Frenzy, IBS (potentially augmented Bloodletter if it doesn't kill you) on bosses. I don't know what you mean by playing a gwf, not a barb but the rotations have a rationale behind them, they're not just copied from mod 15. NdF for example is not something you'd use on live, ever, but now we have fewer self buffs and we have to use what we have and Trample the Fallen looks promising.

    Just finished playing with my Barbarian the last couple of days:

    1. DPS levels are "meh", significantly lower than on the live server. Seems to be a theme with most of my characters. A slight bump of about 10-15% would make it more palatable for current players.

    2. Survivability is down the toilet. "Battle Rage" provides almost no damage mitigation vs what we have now on live. Considering the class still has no dodge mechanic, this change makes no sense. It also seems to take a lot more effort to get battle rage up to 50%, vs what we have on the live server - why?

    3. The animations for several of the new at-wills feel very clunky, almost to the point of being unusable.

    4. Daggers has been nerfed to the point it will never be used. The new Axestorm, or whatever it's called, will probably take its place, which begs the question - why nerf the original power, then create a new redundant power that most players will choose instead?

    1. that's a balance issue. Each role in each class should be equally palatable to players, leaving the choice to personal taste. If they're moving in the direction I'm thinking, "old" dungeons should keep both their challenging and rewarding value in the future. That is, never in the future ToNG will become the new CN, a dungeon that used the hardest and now you can solo. The reason why tier 1 and tier 2 epic dungeons have no rewards worth mentioning is just because they have become too easy mod after mod. So I picture a future where differences in classes can make different classes the best option for different dungeons, with a wide range of rewarding dungeons to choose from. I.e. there won't be the need to nerf ToNG reward since it won't become exceedingly easy.

    2. yes - I've mentioned this alot. It affects also your DPS and your playstyle. I've always liked the 'in your face' GWF approach to fights. A char that keeps avoiding every attack, hits from the distance, or retreats immediately after an attack, it's not my GWF.

    3. yes - What's worse, they prevent you from sprinting (or maybe doing anything, but usually you commit to a power, a red area appears under your feet, you press shift and nothing happens for just too long)

    4. well actually HDs are quite useful and currently account for a lot of the DPS output of a barb. See previous posts.

    I haven't tested the last patch much tho, so my info could be outdated.


  • hercules125hercules125 Member Posts: 427 Arc User

    I’ve done it. If I wasn’t working so hard in real life I would. I’ll see if one of my guild mates will do it for me. Objectively though if you can’t see the problems in his rotation, then you are still playing a gwf, not a barb.

    So you can't provide us with your ACT log, fine, but why don't you just tell us what rotations are you using? The reason I'm asking is that I came up, after testing various powers, with exaclty the same rotations @rjc9000 used. HD, AS, NsF (to proc Trample the Fallen) on mobs, HD, Frenzy, IBS (potentially augmented Bloodletter if it doesn't kill you) on bosses. I don't know what you mean by playing a gwf, not a barb but the rotations have a rationale behind them, they're not just copied from mod 15. NdF for example is not something you'd use on live, ever, but now we have fewer self buffs and we have to use what we have and Trample the Fallen looks promising.

    Just finished playing with my Barbarian the last couple of days:

    1. DPS levels are "meh", significantly lower than on the live server. Seems to be a theme with most of my characters. A slight bump of about 10-15% would make it more palatable for current players.

    2. Survivability is down the toilet. "Battle Rage" provides almost no damage mitigation vs what we have now on live. Considering the class still has no dodge mechanic, this change makes no sense. It also seems to take a lot more effort to get battle rage up to 50%, vs what we have on the live server - why?

    3. The animations for several of the new at-wills feel very clunky, almost to the point of being unusable.

    4. Daggers has been nerfed to the point it will never be used. The new Axestorm, or whatever it's called, will probably take its place, which begs the question - why nerf the original power, then create a new redundant power that most players will choose instead?

    1. that's a balance issue. Each role in each class should be equally palatable to players, leaving the choice to personal taste. If they're moving in the direction I'm thinking, "old" dungeons should keep both their challenging and rewarding value in the future. That is, never in the future ToNG will become the new CN, a dungeon that used the hardest and now you can solo. The reason why tier 1 and tier 2 epic dungeons have no rewards worth mentioning is just because they have become too easy mod after mod. So I picture a future where differences in classes can make different classes the best option for different dungeons, with a wide range of rewarding dungeons to choose from. I.e. there won't be the need to nerf ToNG reward since it won't become exceedingly easy.

    2. yes - I've mentioned this alot. It affects also your DPS and your playstyle. I've always liked the 'in your face' GWF approach to fights. A char that keeps avoiding every attack, hits from the distance, or retreats immediately after an attack, it's not my GWF.

    3. yes - What's worse, they prevent you from sprinting (or maybe doing anything, but usually you commit to a power, a red area appears under your feet, you press shift and nothing happens for just too long)

    4. well actually HDs are quite useful and currently account for a lot of the DPS output of a barb. See previous posts.

    I haven't tested the last patch much tho, so my info could be outdated.


    1. Keeping old dungeons relevant is all well and good, assuming they update the rewards. (which I doubt ever happens) This could have just as easily been done with a tarot card system like they did with Barovia hunts, without ever touching the classes.
    Or they could have implemented a difficulty level system, like they did in City of Heroes.

    What I do have an issue with is when this impacts my performance in solo content. Solo content should very rarely be fatal to anyone - this was tried in games like Wildstar - and it always fails.

    4. I will try HDs again, but in my first attempt the damage felt almost non-existant.
  • drumon88drumon88 Member Posts: 142 Arc User

    I’ve done it. If I wasn’t working so hard in real life I would. I’ll see if one of my guild mates will do it for me. Objectively though if you can’t see the problems in his rotation, then you are still playing a gwf, not a barb.

    So you can't provide us with your ACT log, fine, but why don't you just tell us what rotations are you using? The reason I'm asking is that I came up, after testing various powers, with exaclty the same rotations @rjc9000 used. HD, AS, NsF (to proc Trample the Fallen) on mobs, HD, Frenzy, IBS (potentially augmented Bloodletter if it doesn't kill you) on bosses. I don't know what you mean by playing a gwf, not a barb but the rotations have a rationale behind them, they're not just copied from mod 15. NdF for example is not something you'd use on live, ever, but now we have fewer self buffs and we have to use what we have and Trample the Fallen looks promising.

    Just finished playing with my Barbarian the last couple of days:

    1. DPS levels are "meh", significantly lower than on the live server. Seems to be a theme with most of my characters. A slight bump of about 10-15% would make it more palatable for current players.

    2. Survivability is down the toilet. "Battle Rage" provides almost no damage mitigation vs what we have now on live. Considering the class still has no dodge mechanic, this change makes no sense. It also seems to take a lot more effort to get battle rage up to 50%, vs what we have on the live server - why?

    3. The animations for several of the new at-wills feel very clunky, almost to the point of being unusable.

    4. Daggers has been nerfed to the point it will never be used. The new Axestorm, or whatever it's called, will probably take its place, which begs the question - why nerf the original power, then create a new redundant power that most players will choose instead?

    1. that's a balance issue. Each role in each class should be equally palatable to players, leaving the choice to personal taste. If they're moving in the direction I'm thinking, "old" dungeons should keep both their challenging and rewarding value in the future. That is, never in the future ToNG will become the new CN, a dungeon that used the hardest and now you can solo. The reason why tier 1 and tier 2 epic dungeons have no rewards worth mentioning is just because they have become too easy mod after mod. So I picture a future where differences in classes can make different classes the best option for different dungeons, with a wide range of rewarding dungeons to choose from. I.e. there won't be the need to nerf ToNG reward since it won't become exceedingly easy.

    2. yes - I've mentioned this alot. It affects also your DPS and your playstyle. I've always liked the 'in your face' GWF approach to fights. A char that keeps avoiding every attack, hits from the distance, or retreats immediately after an attack, it's not my GWF.

    3. yes - What's worse, they prevent you from sprinting (or maybe doing anything, but usually you commit to a power, a red area appears under your feet, you press shift and nothing happens for just too long)

    4. well actually HDs are quite useful and currently account for a lot of the DPS output of a barb. See previous posts.

    I haven't tested the last patch much tho, so my info could be outdated.


    1. Keeping old dungeons relevant is all well and good, assuming they update the rewards. (which I doubt ever happens) This could have just as easily been done with a tarot card system like they did with Barovia hunts, without ever touching the classes.
    Or they could have implemented a difficulty level system, like they did in City of Heroes.

    What I do have an issue with is when this impacts my performance in solo content. Solo content should very rarely be fatal to anyone - this was tried in games like Wildstar - and it always fails.

    4. I will try HDs again, but in my first attempt the damage felt almost non-existant.
    Hidden Daggers is not used for the damage from Hidden Daggers, it's used for the 200 bonus magnitude to another power (IE, it adds ~50% additional damage to IBS/Bloodletter+Bloodspiller, or ~100% damage to Axestorm). But it's in direct opposition to Asterdahl's claims of "in mod 15 GWF required too much table-setting to do damage" as now before EVERY big encounter power you have to wait for HD to come off cooldown, or it's basically useless, you HAVE to run around like a chicken with your head cut off to not just straight up get splattered in melee, and if anything you have to micromanage the now much shorter list of and shorter duration buffs and debuffs to be worth a lick as a DPS class. I really don't know what they were thinking when they came up with this as it's literally the POLAR OPPOSITE of what Asterdahl stated was the intent.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 345 Arc User
    This is probably a bug, but we have yet to identify cause. When using Not So Fast if you spam the button you can sometimes get it to activate more than once before going on cooldown, as I reported before, but my friend and I have noticed that sometimes while doing this his powers get locked for a few seconds almost like he's experiencing lag. But it's not lag, and they unlock after another swing of Not So Fast goes through. My friend says it seems to him when this happens Not so Fast is getting queued to swing a second time but is respecting the power cooldown even though the icon isn't showing cooldown and not letting him use any other powers until the queued Not So Fast has completed. We hypothesize that this is happening when he is getting affected by a control power between the two strikes of Not So Fast he was trying to get.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,260 Arc User

    This is probably a bug, but we have yet to identify cause. When using Not So Fast if you spam the button you can sometimes get it to activate more than once before going on cooldown, as I reported before, but my friend and I have noticed that sometimes while doing this his powers get locked for a few seconds almost like he's experiencing lag. But it's not lag, and they unlock after another swing of Not So Fast goes through. My friend says it seems to him when this happens Not so Fast is getting queued to swing a second time but is respecting the power cooldown even though the icon isn't showing cooldown and not letting him use any other powers until the queued Not So Fast has completed. We hypothesize that this is happening when he is getting affected by a control power between the two strikes of Not So Fast he was trying to get.

    I recall that if I mashed the button quickly after the initial press, I could get a second Not So Fast to activate.

    To be honest: it felt exactly like the pre-pre-prepatch Griffon's Wrath 4th charge, where you pressed Griffon's Wrath again during the 3rd charge's animation to get one more hit afterwards.

    On that note: if the devs decide to try and fix the extra hit as they've tried with Griffons, at least the interesting "fixes" will be on a mediocre power like Not So Fast and not something useful like IBS...

  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 345 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Honestly, the second strike isn't a big deal because it's not a good power. But we're leveling a pair of characters through everything from 1. Right now Not So Fast is a decent power for him BECAUSE of the second accidental strike. We're abusing the Hamster out of it. But when he can't activate any powers for 10+ seconds because of this weird power lockout, it hurts. I know we kind of deserve it for purposely trying to get that extra hit, but it should be looked at anyway. What's happening is between the legit strike and the extra, he can't do anything except run around. We know it's not lag because he can still move and stuff. Sometimes that lockdown period is short, 10ish seconds. Sometimes it's long, 15 seconds. It happened worst in the Sarkoniss mission in Rothe with all the kb, but it's happening at other times as well which is why we suspect control powers to be involved.
  • drumon88drumon88 Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    First tier of feats still doesn't feel good. Neither NSF nor Mighty Leap are good powers, even for solo/leveling content. I don't want to either be shoehorned into using bad abilities, or have a totally wasted feat because HD+Axestorm significantly outperforms either choice. Same deal with 4th set, Unstoppable Spin is still pretty bad because Spinning Strike is bad. Not only does Avalanche of Steel do pretty comparable damage, but provides total immunity for the duration.

    Thank you for fixing Bloodspiller, I haven't managed to kill myself with it yet and it seems to only be doing around 15% of the damage I do to enemies, so in conjunction with the heavy reduction in Encounter damage it's a pretty token amount of self-damage.

    The sprint mechanic is almost never sufficient to get out of the red indicator for AoEs before the AoE goes off at our current movement speed, and the game's seeming reluctance to cancel animations as soon as the shift key is pressed so there's often a delay before your character actually starts moving that is a major contributor to this. AoEs in general seem to go off faster than they do on Live.

    Since patch notes haven't been posted yet but @noworries#8859 posted that encounter powers were being nerfed, I feel like you really were a bit heavy handed. Despite not seeing any real changes to listed magnitude, basically all encounter powers are doing 15-20% of the damage they had previously. Average single-target encounter hits are in the 30-40k range and I haven't had a single crit over 100k in the 20 minutes I've been playing, whereas previously Axestorm, IBS, Bloodletter un-feated, and Frenzy were consistently over 150k non-crit and I was seeing 450k+ crits with feated Bloodletter on occasion. This has led to roughly doubled TTKs and several deaths to getting overwhelmed by random trash, despite my gear level (20.5k, full Protege/R12+ enchants)


    In 20 minutes of killing things, Relentless Speed (free use of NSF) hasn't procced a single time. It was working for me last patch.

    There is still a 1-1.5 second delay between landing with Mighty Leap and the skill reactivating for Mightier Leap if you didn't hit anything, despite the "allowing its immediate reuse" in the tooltip.

    Bloodspiller says it increases magnitude of Bloodletter by 900, but with the feat learned a mouseover of Bloodletter shows magnitude 800 (un-feated is 400).
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Atwills/steel blitz looks better after this general changes... well, lvl 77 now, so, letme say again.

    Roar dont provide enough rage, even hitting 5 enemies. using relentless battlerage is a little better, but everthing is a little better.

    because of that potential combination... please, improve raging strikes

    brash strike... something need be done to that atwill. but, to be honest, not sure if that feedback page still working.
  • hoveristhoverist Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    Why haven't the bad feats been changed so far?
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,138 Arc User

    Am I the only person who doesn't like the new daggers ? I find the jump back too big (or the range insufficient), you have to run right up to or past the nearest mob and even then you still miss members of the group at the back because you don't have the range. It was much more friendly in Mod 15 and could be used on the way in.
  • patcherrkmpatcherrkm Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 127 Arc User
    With the recent changes barb is now getting smashed in dps by both rangers and wizards. They are putting out more than double the dps. Testing is being done with 24k IL characters. Multiple builds and rotations tested
  • illuvitaroilluvitaro Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    A few things about early game Barbarian:
    1. Not enough AoE dmg in early at wills. 1-2 thrash mobs is fine, more and I feel the need to use encounters, which also feels bad(see 2).
    2. Cds are too long. Mighty Leap and Punishing Charge are especially brutal as you might kill a group and still have ~15s cd remaining.
    3. Bounding Slams: too short range or too low dmg. If it's meant for engage, then the range is a bit low and if it's meant for AoE then the dps is too low.

    The Barbarians early game currently feels somewhat clunky, like it's missing something.

    Recommendations:
    1. Add AoE to fourth hit in Sure Strike combo.
    2. Lower the cds a bit.
    3. Extend Bounding Slams range.

    This would make SS and BS viable options to encounters against packs of trash and make encounter usage more fun and engaging.


    Crescendo is usable but not shown in Powers tab:
    https://imgur.com/RyNWDZV
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    With the recent changes barb is now getting smashed in dps by both rangers and wizards. They are putting out more than double the dps. Testing is being done with 24k IL characters. Multiple builds and rotations tested

    if exist a certain rule when encounters need be better than atwills, classes that have 3 encounters+1special or 6 encounters will have a biiiiiiiiiiiiiig advantage. how you fix that? ignore rules or buff by real the main mechanicals, feats or class features. but... looks like the new dev believe that new might leap is too funny to be necessary rework all that bad changes to something really usefull...

    every rework for gwfs is the same thing... they announce some change and stop in the middle of that, ignoring every suggestion that could make the class solid.
    Post edited by rafamarques#5700 on
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    edited April 2019
    Hey everyone! During our livestream today some of you were asking if I was still alive due to my sluggish responses recently and I just wanted to update you all that I am still very much alive, but that I have been devoting all of the evening time I had dedicated to replying to these threads to getting everything locked down ahead of our internal gold deadline so that our QA department has sufficient time to hammer on things ahead of launch. I have been skimming through posts as much as possible and hope to square away some time soon to answer more questions.

    In the meantime, I'd like to apologize for how quiet I've been and let you all know that I absolutely have been reading, will continue to read, and will make the time to respond to your feedback and questions. I won't forget about them.
  • davidmokidavidmoki Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    asterdahl said:

    Hey everyone! During our livestream today some of you were asking if I was still alive due to my sluggish responses recently and I just wanted to update you all that I am still very much alive, but that I have been devoting all of the evening time I had dedicated to replying to these threads to getting everything locked down ahead of our internal gold deadline so that our QA department has sufficient time to hammer on things ahead of launch. I have been skimming through posts as much as possible and hope to square away some time soon to answer more questions.

    In the meantime, I'd like to apologize for how quiet I've been and let you all know that I absolutely have been reading, will continue to read, and will make the time to respond to your feedback and questions. I won't forget about them.

    Just give us an final answer on the whole thing with at wills not doing anything, unstoppable been pointless on blade master (10% damage increase and immunity to some CC is not acceptable), I just wanna know if I should keep playing as GWF or start working on my Hunter.

  • patcherrkmpatcherrkm Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 127 Arc User
    i care less about your long responses to everyeone. what really matters is simply knowing youre on top of things. the 1st 4th and 5th feat columns need some work. also, ourdps needs some love. it was #1, now with recent changes we dropped to the basement.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I expect DPS to be the last thing they work on, bugs and having things working in a way we find engaging to play etc. take priority for the next 2 weeks. The last week and if needed first few months after live are for tweaking DPS.

    The last thing really is dialing in the numbers.

    Also keep in mind the goal for DPS is DPS all close to each other with a gap between DPS and tanks and heals. The game as a whole is not that interested in who is #1 DPS this week, just in having all the DPS be viable and better at it than tanks and heals.
    Post edited by obsidiancran3 on
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • spidey#3367 spidey Member Posts: 399 Arc User

    I expect DPS to be the last thing they work on, bugs and having things working in a way we find engaging to play etc. take priority for the next 2 weeks. The last week and if needed first few months after live are for tweaking DPS.



    The last thing really is dialing in the numbers.



    Also keep in mind the goal for DPS is DPS all close to each other with a gap between DPS and tanks and heals. The game as a whole is not that interested in who is #1 DPS this week, just in having all the DPS be viable and better at it than tanks and heals.

    You never tried a dungeon like Tong on PTR in the last days, did you?
    Do it. Trie to kill the adds when you fight against Ras Ni and state your post again :-)

    Spidey
  • davidmokidavidmoki Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    ok, I got the message, I'll be back in a few months :)
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User


    You never tried a dungeon like Tong on PTR in the last days, did you?
    Do it. Trie to kill the adds when you fight against Ras Ni and state your post again :-)

    Spidey

    Wouldn't that qualify as either a bug or a problem with DPS not being viable?
    Both of which I covered. (And I remember 3 hour ToNGs just fine when it first came out, I also remember Mod6 launch and Spitting Spiders killing people with 200k HP or more in a single shot... bugs happen.)
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • spidey#3367 spidey Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    I truly belief no on from the dev team plays a dungoen like tong or cradle or even eLoL on the PTR. And i truly believe the devs give a hamster about how the com struggles in the dungeons.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Hey everyone! During our livestream today some of you were asking if I was still alive due to my sluggish responses recently and I just wanted to update you all that I am still very much alive, but that I have been devoting all of the evening time I had dedicated to replying to these threads to getting everything locked down ahead of our internal gold deadline so that our QA department has sufficient time to hammer on things ahead of launch. I have been skimming through posts as much as possible and hope to square away some time soon to answer more questions.

    In the meantime, I'd like to apologize for how quiet I've been and let you all know that I absolutely have been reading, will continue to read, and will make the time to respond to your feedback and questions. I won't forget about them.


    so... you "finished" your job with feats/class features, etc, that means, the barbarian concept? for now, everthing will be (maybe) work with values?

    just to know... maybe we are wasting pages (and civility between us) with uselles feedbacks based on
    unrealistic expectations.

  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    His job isn’t just Barbarian, or the 3 classes, and classes are still “subject to change” (see the Paladin thread). If he gets everything else “finished” that leaves more time in the next 2 weeks to tune classes.

    He just apologised for not communicating as much lately, try hanging out in Warlock, Rogue or Ranger threads and see how they have faired with Dev engagement...
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 275 Arc User

    maybe we are wasting pages (and civility between us) with uselles feedbacks based on
    unrealistic expectations.

    It's to make the transition between beta-mod 15 gwf to barb 16 smoother
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