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Official M16: Barbarian Feedback

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  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    By record, I will say the "philosophical" reason behind my idea of concept.

    Gwf (live) has 3 trees, instigator (that NEVER work), destroyers and sentinels (which never worked as a tank option).

    Here is the description of the destroyer: "The Destroyer is a torrent of unfettered rage and anger that deals a crushing amount of damage no foe is likely to survive."

    And instigator: ""The Instigator combines cunning and strength to harnesses the ferocity of battle into precision attacks and tatical maneuvers."


    Now that gwf is called "barbarian", the idea of "be a torrent of unfettered rage and anger" should be deepened, but what happens is the partial reproduction of the instigator's experience. how?

    Barbarian tier 1: a feat improves "not so fast" and the other "might leap"; two powers contemplated by the instigator and fit with the idea of OR harnesses the ferocity of battle into precision attacks or use tactical maneuvers.
    Tier 2: ok, "take damage to do more damage" or increasing damage by crescent anger combines with the concept of barbarians/destroyers despite the limitation of 2 encounters.
    Tier 3: 1/2 matches with ANY CLASS. detemination/anger by crit? It would fit into any gwf tree.
    Tier 4: Choose between spinning strike and avalanch of steel. Again ... the old "creepling strike" (instigator tree) improved both powers. So, again, it's the experience of being an instigator.
    Tier 5: interesting if not for the fact that when we were fighters, "be angry" was a common and constant experience for destroyers. Then notice the irony ... now that gwf is barbarian, he HAS LOST THE ABILITY TO FEEL ANGRY MORE CONSTANTLY.


    about class features, just to say one: the best for now is "trample of fallen" (original guardian fighter power), that means, do more damage against controlled enemies. now, lets take a look in the actual creepling strike of instigators (You deal 3/6/9/12/15% more damage to targets who are slowed by Crippling Strikes). so, no single one can deny that, barbarians now are (bad) instigators. nothing more.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 731 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I have not run my Barbarian through all the way, but have with CW. I recommend using a "Doohickey" item in your rotations to aid with the cooldown wait... at least, till they nerf it. Also, the Adorable Pocket pet is pretty helpful for DPS now.
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User

    I have not run my Barbarian through all the way, but have with CW. I recommend using a "Doohickey" item in your rotations to aid with the cooldown wait... at least, till they nerf it. Also, the Adorable Pocket pet is pretty helpful for DPS now.

    so your advice is "use an exploit" because the class is broken?
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 731 Arc User
    I am saying, that a class is not balanced in isolation from the tools the game is giving us to play with. You can playtest without any enchantments slotted, yes... but then one's advice should not be that the equipment provided is too weak to play the new content. I was only suggesting a tool you can use that might help between rotations.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    No changes this week? Will we be forced to choose a feat for skills we will not use?


    * In some of the strikes of Brash Strike is causing a delay in the activation of Sprint, which made me quite vulnerable in the fights.

    ** The mechanics of the Daggers are horrible compared to live, which made me for several times lose the reach of Axestorm.

    *** Axestorm still has the problem for uneven areas, as already mentioned above.
  • davidmokidavidmoki Member Posts: 52 Arc User

    No changes this week? Will we be forced to choose a feat for skills we will not use?


    * In some of the strikes of Brash Strike is causing a delay in the activation of Sprint, which made me quite vulnerable in the fights.

    ** The mechanics of the Daggers are horrible compared to live, which made me for several times lose the reach of Axestorm.

    *** Axestorm still has the problem for uneven areas, as already mentioned above.

    The dev responsible for barb is busy bug fixing, he is also responsible for more classes, this changes are not final and they can (and most likely will) be changed even after the release.

  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    The dev responsible for barb is busy bug fixing, he is also responsible for more classes, this changes are not final and they can (and most likely will) be changed even after the release.

    when criticized about the new feats, he claimed that internally he and other devs were having fun with the current changes. so no... this changes can be definitive,varying values ​​like current magnitude/damage bonus. that is why we should know about the real expectatives about that class.

    that means, some REAL work will done to make that class looks like, i dont know, a barbarian or i can just wait that dumb version of gwf will do more damage than now after some buffs... but still dumb?

  • davidmokidavidmoki Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    The dev responsible for barb is busy bug fixing, he is also responsible for more classes, this changes are not final and they can (and most likely will) be changed even after the release.

    when criticized about the new feats, he claimed that internally he and other devs were having fun with the current changes. so no... this changes can be definitive,varying values ​​like current magnitude/damage bonus. that is why we should know about the real expectatives about that class.

    that means, some REAL work will done to make that class looks like, i dont know, a barbarian or i can just wait that dumb version of gwf will do more damage than now after some buffs... but still dumb?

    You are missing one thing, Barb is not the only class with terrible Feats, once this goes live, they will see how everyone feel about the new feats system and do something about it, we are stuck with this for a while, but I guarantee it will change, my guess is that they will change the feat system itself, because all this changes are for the worse, in a perfect world they would just go back to mod 15 feat system.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    davidmoki said:

    The dev responsible for barb is busy bug fixing, he is also responsible for more classes, this changes are not final and they can (and most likely will) be changed even after the release.

    when criticized about the new feats, he claimed that internally he and other devs were having fun with the current changes. so no... this changes can be definitive,varying values ​​like current magnitude/damage bonus. that is why we should know about the real expectatives about that class.

    that means, some REAL work will done to make that class looks like, i dont know, a barbarian or i can just wait that dumb version of gwf will do more damage than now after some buffs... but still dumb?

    You are missing one thing, Barb is not the only class with terrible Feats, once this goes live, they will see how everyone feel about the new feats system and do something about it, we are stuck with this for a while, but I guarantee it will change, my guess is that they will change the feat system itself, because all this changes are for the worse, in a perfect world they would just go back to mod 15 feat system.
    We should absolutely not go back to the mod15 system. A pruning of the outright trap choices is still necessary, but there's a huge range of possible outcomes between the mod15 status quo and the spartan simplicity of mod16's feats.
  • patcherrkmpatcherrkm Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 127 Arc User
    Barb damage on preview is very low compared to others. Please boost of the dps. Been testing compared with 24k ranger and wizard barb was less than half their damage. Plz don’t go live with barb being gutted
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    As I was just reminded on live...

    Has anyone run into the bug where you cannot activate Tab in Mod16?

    That’s a definite show stopper for the Sentinel.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • itzlapolaloltzitzlapolaloltz Member Posts: 37 Arc User


    As I was just reminded on live...



    Has anyone run into the bug where you cannot activate Tab in Mod16?



    That’s a definite show stopper for the Sentinel.

    Got this once in terminus but didnt seem to be an issue like in chult. This said I am a blademaster so I just ran away, I trust for sentinel its must be a pain
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    I'm more worried about it cropping up in a dungeon and the run falling apart as a result, that happening too often will result in people saying "no" to Sentinels, for fear of the bug striking and stuffing the run.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User

    I'm more worried about it cropping up in a dungeon and the run falling apart as a result, that happening too often will result in people saying "no" to Sentinels, for fear of the bug striking and stuffing the run.

    That sounds ridiculous, but also painfully possible. It takes much less than a playstyle-breaking bug for a class to get declared "nonviable" by those at the extreme neckbeard end of the playerbase
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    There are only 10 days left until the launch, but I'm worried about the progress of the classes. I think the Class Future is decent, but the feats that bind us to the powers of ecounters and everyday powers are a terrible choice. I believe that many like me do not use these powers.

    Another point that I do not like much is the companions. Having 3 defensive slots limits the class's potential as dps, as it makes it almost impossible to balance the 5% difference in damage that some should quote in some class in the class balance. Dev responsible for the companions did a good job at modifying some companions to defensive, even though they have offensive status in a defensive slot, but that is not enough. There are combos of offensive companions that give a great increase in the final damage. But you can say that the Barbarian has a viable paragorn tank in mod 16, and that this change is justified because of that. Well, how many players who have created their GWF dps will switch to tank? Very few believe me. Maybe some new players, with the same thought some GFs have had in these last modules, start out as a tank and are turning into DPS.

    But as there are only 10 days to go and such changes will probably not happen, I would like to thank you for your efforts, even if the end result has not pleased me.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    gwfs - barbarian my HAMSTER - have a weird karma. well... for "reworks" that is the end of line i guess. maybe buffs, maybe nothing.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User

    There are only 10 days left until the launch, but I'm worried about the progress of the classes. I think the Class Future is decent, but the feats that bind us to the powers of ecounters and everyday powers are a terrible choice. I believe that many like me do not use these powers.

    Another point that I do not like much is the companions. Having 3 defensive slots limits the class's potential as dps, as it makes it almost impossible to balance the 5% difference in damage that some should quote in some class in the class balance. Dev responsible for the companions did a good job at modifying some companions to defensive, even though they have offensive status in a defensive slot, but that is not enough. There are combos of offensive companions that give a great increase in the final damage. But you can say that the Barbarian has a viable paragorn tank in mod 16, and that this change is justified because of that. Well, how many players who have created their GWF dps will switch to tank? Very few believe me. Maybe some new players, with the same thought some GFs have had in these last modules, start out as a tank and are turning into DPS.

    But as there are only 10 days to go and such changes will probably not happen, I would like to thank you for your efforts, even if the end result has not pleased me.

    FWIW, there are a number of companions with "hybrid" bonuses that can be slotted into a defensive slot, but still give some offensive stats.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    @fenrir4life Please read my post more carefully before citing my comment and remember that not everyone who writes here has deep knowledge about the English language and that the damn translator does not always transcribe the way I think, even though I review before posting. In the section on Companions I cite examples of companion combos that the Barbarians will not be able to use due to Slots limitation and how this will offset the damage of the class in relation to others.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    I started the weekly redo for my Sentinel this week and as I rebuild her these are some reflections:

    1) At-wills these remain a reasonable selection, I still don't like Sentinel's Slash, but do understand it's value.

    2) Encounters: Actually happy with these. Some I'm not drawn to, but there is enough valid choice in here that I'm ok with it.

    3) Dailies: These are OK. I'm not in disagreement with the people suggesting changes to where they go, but I find enough utility in all of them bu Spinning Strike to be satisfied.

    3) Class Features: I feel like there is 1 good choice for solo play (Steady Rage), 2 mediocre choices for solo play (Bravery and Furious Reaction) and the rest work for party play in one way or another.

    4) Feats: Indomitable Might, Crushing Advance and Disarming Takedown are the only ones I consider worth choosing, and then because the other choices are so poor. All the others are basically placeholders taken to stop the Power Tab flashing at me (when that is finally fixed anyway). I have covered the feats in more detail before and nothing has changed here to change the feeling that these are basically a bunch of bad choices you don't even have to make.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • davidmokidavidmoki Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Hi @asterdahl , you said this on the cleric threat:
    "keep in mind that players can dodge out and back in without losing out on a significant amount of healing."
    I just wanna remind you that Blade master doesn't have Iframes on the dodge, we used to have additional hp to compensate it, but you took that away. so... Could you give us Iframes? or the same overpower class mechanic called Unstoppable that you gave Sentinel while you didn't give us anything? or you know... our additional hp back? The main question is... Could Blade master get some love, please? :'(
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,025 Arc User
    As someone who already abandoned the game, i can tell ya this much. With these changes, my currently 17.9k GWF feels like a waste of time. Thats well over 5000 hours there.

    Toodles,
    Dori.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    Crushing Advance is not removing the knock down from Savage Advance, I'm unsure about its other effects.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    davidmoki said:


    No changes this week? Will we be forced to choose a feat for skills we will not use?


    * In some of the strikes of Brash Strike is causing a delay in the activation of Sprint, which made me quite vulnerable in the fights.

    ** The mechanics of the Daggers are horrible compared to live, which made me for several times lose the reach of Axestorm.

    *** Axestorm still has the problem for uneven areas, as already mentioned above.

    The dev responsible for barb is busy bug fixing, he is also responsible for more classes, this changes are not final and they can (and most likely will) be changed even after the release.

    if there is one thing i am 100% sure is that there has never been and will never be any substantial class changes in between mods.
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 4,862 Arc User
    The 2017 DC rework took place outside of a module release IIRC.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 345 Arc User
    Asterdahl has stated several times that they will continue to work on fixing and balancing for several weeks after launch. I wouldn't count changes out for a few more weeks.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    Greetings everyone. As I indicated in my previous post, I had to step away from the forums as we closed in on the final release candidate, there simply weren't enough calendar hours remaining to hit all the remaining feedback items and bugs while also posting regularly. However, this week, we built our release candidate—so I now have some time to reply again.

    asterdahl said:

    karamekos said:

    asterdahl said:

    drumon88 said:

    I have to say with the changes in encounter recovery times its more annoying than ever to hit a button and have an encounter fire when it has no target, especially with encounters like Bloodletter and Takedown.

    IBS has been bad about this for as long as I've been playing, even when fighting a group of mobs before me it will often simply "miss" everything. Wasn't the end of the world in mod15 due to the comparatively short cooldown and comparatively excellent survivability and comparatively excellent other sources of damage, but for what equates to HALF of all damage done in a fight simply whiffing for no apparent reason coupled with a huge cooldown, it feels pretty bad and runs a very real risk of getting you killed in a lot of places right now due to the "you have 8 seconds to kill them or they will kill you" thing they have going.
    I've considered making some changes to these powers so that they actually require a valid target. That wouldn't prevent them from being legitimately dodged such as in PvP, but you'd no longer be able to swing them at nothing. How would people prefer if their powers were to change in that way?
    Is the potential problem that multiple targets in front of the attacker confuse the targeting mechanic and instead of picking a valid target(s), the targeting mechanic fails to target any? Would a viable alternative be to "widen" the window of what the system considers valid targets (I apologize for the non-technical term "widen") on an IBS attack to recognize anything in front of the barbarian as valid targets? If there's no problem with the targeting mechanic, I see being unable to use the attack until a valid target is available as a positive change. If the change is made to require a valid target for an IBS attack, another thought on sequencing would be that the damage would need to be applied to the valid target(s) by the IBS attack before a mechanic like sprinting would remove the valid target status. Again, I apologize for lacking the proper technical vocabulary but hope my comments are still understandable.
    Hi Karamekos, thanks for your interest in the proposed change to target acquisition for IBS. I struggled to follow your questions but I think you are asking about how things like dodging would relate to IBS if it required a valid target. Dodging wouldn't change, if a valid target is required for IBS, but the target dodges as the swing is happening, immunity frames will prevent damage.

    You just wouldn't be able to accidentally activate IBS after an enemy has recently stepped out of range, and by virtue of that change you would not be able to swing IBS with no target at all nearby. (Which I'm not sure why you would want to, but I feel it's worth stating for clarity.) Hope that helps!
    It wouldn't make sense to have a Melee Power, Short Range, to ask for a valid target, i never heard of anyone missing IBS, same as you think they are able to "accidentally activate IBS" some of us are actually pressing the encounter b4 to sync when we will get the target in our range, if u put a valid target thing, it will just create a delay in our reactions. So please do not.
    Although I considered making adjustments, in the end we did not make any such adjustments. You certainly can use the ability to fire the power with no target to your advantage with a power like IBS that has a bit of a wind-up, so we decided to leave things as is, considering it's something many of you have been used to for years, and neither style of targeting is clearly better in all cases.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    rjc9000 said:


    Again, i repeat the Point of using the Shared Powers is to adjust them to be used for Blademaster's Tool kit, and it can be said the same for the Sentinel's Tool kit.

    Choice A and B shouldn't be opposite to eachother, it should be 2 choices for the same Powers that will provide DPS in a different way, so it's the same concept of ST vs AoE, Burst vs DOT, COOLDOWN vs MAGNITUDE all are there to increase damage in a different way for the same purpose.

    Unique Powers are the following
    2 atwills
    5 encounters
    2 Dailies
    4 class features
    These should be already designed to be used by the Blademaster's or the Sentinel's , just please use the format above and i am going to tell you that we will be happy.

    I'd agree.

    I dislike being forced into the tiers with powers I don't plan to use at all, it just means I waste a feat. I especially dislike the tier with the daily attacks because I don't use Spinning Strike or Avalanche of Steel.

    As stated previously, Avalanche forces you to stand around and do nothing, which doesn't fit with the style of attack attack attack that Barbarian prefers. The Spinning Strike feat isn't much better, as it messes with my planned rotation and doesn't flow very well. I'd much prefer Crescendo or Adamantine Strike if I plan to use a daily attack.

    If there are forced power choices in the feats, I'd hope there is an expansion of powers in the feat so I don't need to have a wasted feat because the offering is just bad.
    You can certainly still use Crescendo and Adamantine Strike, in reality—nothing is competing with Crescendo for single target damage. Adamantine Strike is also a solid choice in group play, regardless of which feated AoE daily you have as an alternative.

    The goal of building feats in this style is to reduce the number of global effects occurring on each class. When all 5 feat choices result in some unique stat interaction, stacking buff or debuff, or triggering power, the actual meaning of any given interaction with your powers becomes muddied.

    That being said, I understand that this style of feat is very unpopular with some players, so it's certainly possible that those feats could be overhauled in the future.
  • hoveristhoverist Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    Hi @asterdahl
    Will there be a remake of the feats at the Blademaster, or will they remain in poor condition?
    We worry that we have not been heard or do not want to hear.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    @asterdahl here is some feedback.

    1) Maybe its me, but soloing ESOT is harder at the boss if not impossible. Before I could always sprint out of the way of the bosses attacks, now I seem very slow. Movement for the class seems stiff and not as fluid as before the last patch.

    2) I don't feel a difference in how quickly I gain Rage when I use the feats Steady Rage and Impatience. Still seems painfully slow. That being said I find in general gaining rage takes far to long. Can you advise if they are actually working?

    3) Are you able to share the stats of how much of the playerbase actually use Not so Fast and Mightly leap. I have been playing for 5 years and only recall newbies using those encounters. They really seem to be a waste imo.

    4)


    1) There have been quite a few adjustments to queued content difficulty leading up to launch. Shores of Tuern is not intended to be easily solo'd and at one point enemies within were not receiving any of the correct group content buffs that enemies normally receive. In terms of your movement, I am not sure why that would feel different, there have not been any adjustments to movement speed or sprinting speed.

    2) Both of the powers you mention should be working correctly, however, note that Impatience only has an effect when you are in combat but not actively attacking. The effect basically triggers after a second of not attacking, and shuts off when you attack. So it's useful when moving between enemies in a pull, or if you're stunned, or being attacked from a range, or waiting for a boss to return to the arena, etc.

    3) They are certainly less popular powers, and that's of course, why we are making changes. Most people are not skipping out on either power because they just don't like them, they're skipping them because they don't do enough damage. Of course, with Module 16, and taking a wholistic look at each class, we are hoping to revive some dead and underused powers. I understand that depending on your thoughts, we may have missed the mark on some of the power still—but we will keep making changes post launch and into future modules to open up more possibilities.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    rjc9000 said:


    However, what has me mixed is that it seems to be doing pretty much all of my damage.

    These measurements must be taken with a grain of salt. The performance of a class hitting stationary targets that doesn't fight back hardly represents the behaviour of such class in real dungeons, moreso now that we have hard hitting AoEs not only from bosses but also from lesser mobs. The DPS loss taken by classes that need to move around is not accounted for in those charts.

    In your post you suggested reducing the damage of encounters and increasing that of at-wills. It won't work well right now because you need to be close and stationary to deliver multiple hits with at-wills, and that means sure death. Encounters work better now because you can move around while waiting for cd to reset (no DPS loss doing so). In a real scenario, powers like Hidden Daggers and Axestorm would be used even more frequently than at-wills or IBS/Frenzy. Basicly you stay at large, deliver HD and AS then you close in for a IBS/Frenzy and then immediately move away again. Even if we had better mobility, we still would spend a lot of time moving around and not using at-wills.

    We might be able to get the old style cqc of the GWF only while running easier contents or by stacking defense. That btw used to be a theme with the old GWF, some builds did stack defense and there used to be feats that kind of encouraged that. Both Steely Defense and Armor Specialization, two Heroic feats that were common to all GWF paths (Swordmaster or Iron Vanguard, Istigator or Destroyer or Sentinel), rewarded stacking defense.

    I wound't mind having a feat that does something similar to Steely Defense (rewarding stacking defense for DPS). Purely adding power maybe isn't viable anymore, but some kind of bonus, maybe adding to atwill damage, wouldn't be bad.

    How about a feat that adds your defense stat to power in damage calculation for atwills only? Stacking defense means giving up on some offensive enchants for defensive ones. At the moment, combat advantage bonus is not easy to max, and most people would equip enchants (and runestone on the companion) that give that.

    Moving say 10k points from CA to power (via defense) for atwills only is a DPS loss (all powers get reduced damage from reduced CA) so I don't think such a feat would be overpowered.
    Although I don't have any plans to implement a feat or class feature that converts defense into offense at this moment in time, survivability of the Blademaster Barbarian is something I am keeping a close eye on as Module 16 launches, and I am certainly considering making global improvements to their survivability if it ends up being a significant impediment to them pulling competitive DPS.

    (If you sprint way ahead of your tank, you're on your own though!)
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