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Official M16: Barbarian Feedback

asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

Feedback: Barbarian

Greetings adventurers, Asterdahl here! This thread is for providing bug reports and feedback on the upcoming changes to barbarian (formerly great weapon fighter) in Module 16. If you haven't already please take a moment to read Noworries' M16: Overview thread.

The most important takeaway in terms of class feedback is: we are still making changes to class powers, both functional and numerical. We wanted to get your hands on the changes sooner than usual. However, as a result, we ask that you realize what you see on preview will change, sometimes dramatically before launch. If you find your perfect build on preview, it may not be the perfect build on live. Powers you feel are very strong, may not stay as strong. We ask for your patience with these changes.

Finally, there are some known issues going into the initial preview build. Particularly in feats, a number of feats may reference powers that are not available when the feat is unlocked, or in some rare cases, reference powers which no longer exist. We have made a number of changes coming out of closed beta, and it is our short term goal to have these feats updated in the near future.

As always, thank you for taking the time to come check things out on preview, we look forward to your feedback!

Formatting Your Feedback and Bugs

For posting feedback and bugs, please follow the following format to ensure your feedback and bugs are seen clearly and processed in a timely manner, thank you!

Type: Bug/Feedback (Please only choose one)
If you are listing a bug please have this text in RED, if you are posting an opinion or feedback please use CYAN. If you are replying to another user's post, asking a question, or just engaging in general discussion, please do not color your posts, general discussion is welcome and we will read all of it, regardless of color! You can use BBCode to color your text:

This text will display in cyan.
This text will display in red.


Examples:
Bug: Threatening rush said that I should lunge towards the target, but I can only use it if the enemy is right next to me.

Feedback: I don't like the changes to Unstoppable, I miss the temporary hit points.
Post edited by asterdahl on
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Comments

  • martelis1981martelis1981 Posts: 117Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 1

    Extreme Nerfed

    can make any HE small solo in barovia(luring all), with trash Mod16 is impossible kill the first group of enemies

    For me If this comes online, I'm out

    waste my time to be frustrated to fail if want play solo ? no thx
    web have lots of better mmo's



    Did you respec? Did you know there are new curve of stats and new caps?. Did you make sure you have enough ArPen?

  • sekosek#5740 sekosek Posts: 34Member Arc User
    edited March 1
    Weapon Master's Strike or with the new name Blademaster's Strike does not hit aoe, it only hits 1 enemy in a group.
    I don't know if its intended nerf or bug but it should be aoe attack otherwise we have no aoe clear.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    c3rb3r3 said:

    OK so we'll start with one of the basics ... Almost all powers are based on live rank 1 ... including damage (all damage need to be increased from the BASE), %increase (example wrathful determination is 2.5% while on live it's 12.5%) ... they should all be based on rank 4 in order to be relevant ...
    Now there are a lot of feats granting FLAT numbers ... Not only they aren't even relevant numbers (they're worth less than a companion equip bonus) but they're also prone to be useless in the future when the power creep will increase ... At this point either make them % based (increase CA by x%) or completely change them ...


    I will edit this and make more feedbacks when i'm less depressed about the class becoming so bad and unresolved

    Many stats work differently than they did in the past, so for instance, providing a 10% increased change to crit is identical to providing 5000 crit rating in every way. We are currently discuss how to display these values (as ratings or percentages) expect a consistent display across player powers for all classes in the next few weeks.

    The Barbarian needs a serious boost to (base-) damage, because this is awful.

    When the main purpose is to deal damage and not much else, going live with these numbers will cause a mass exodus of Barbarians.

    Thanks for the feedback. One large scale change that has happened across all classes is that at-wills, encounters and dailies have been re-balanced relative to one another. At-wills are weaker, encounters are stronger, and dailies are much stronger. Without any class mechanics or feats involved, your DPS should be broken up into 1/5th at-wills, 1/5th for each of your 3 dailies, and 1/5th daily.

    So, if you're just using your at-wills, things will definitely feel slower, but encounters and dailies should feel very impactful. With that said, I would like to say that Barbarian is one of the classes most in need of further adjustments right now, and it will be getting a number of changes over the next 2 weeks to make sure it is on par with other classes.

    If you are fighting in campaign zones, keep in mind that those zones are now scaled, and we're still working on how that scaling affects you. Try playing in the new leveling zones. Also, if you have any other classes, try playing them in the scaled and leveling zones as well and see how they stack up. Barbarian shouldn't be significantly lower than other classes right now, but I there will be changes coming.

    Specifically, coming out of the previous modules, Barbarian had a lot of table setting; setting up buffs and debuffs, in order to deal respectable damage. We're generally moving towards, but especially for Barabrian, dealing more significant damage directly. Not only does doing a lot of table setting feel strange as a Barbarian, it felt weird even when the class was great weapon fighter, you're all about swinging a huge weapon after all.

  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Posts: 275Member Arc User
    edited March 2
    asterdahl said:

    Many stats work differently than they did in the past, so for instance, providing a 10% increased change to crit is identical to providing 5000 crit rating in every way. We are currently discuss how to display these values (as ratings or percentages) expect a consistent display across player powers for all classes in the next few weeks.

    well when I meant %increase it was %increase to existing stat (understand it as a multiplier) but we need to get a base damage increase everywhere first to see how it goes.

    by the way i'm very disappointed to see these powers still exist in the game:
    • Reaping Strike
    • Steadfast determination
    • Mighty Leap
    • Restoring Strike

    You either add a big effect on it or delete these powers because nobody will ever take them they're basically here for beginners to level up they're irrelevant.


    As for the tanks spec it's still useless because it has no way to generate constant and viable aggro as of right now there is not enough sources of threat


    I'll make another post later on which powers have way too low stat numbers
  • areeeareee Posts: 68Member Arc User
    My current feedback after doing one Random: Leveling que.

    I have over 200k health. Woohoo. I ran up to a Cyclops, 1 -2 hits and I am Almost dead. I start attacking and like others have mentioned, damage was low.. although someone figured out how to 1 shot them with his class. Couldn't figure out who.

    I took the tank spec. I could not hold agro, expecially with all the single target AT-Wills and that useless stand like a sitting duck charging up one hit no good. On live I use the At-Will that has broad horizontal strikes, can't remember the name offhand, and unless I miss my guess from the description it was moved to Dps... buh?

    Blocking seems to work, I think, since when I held shift I would take 0 damage (bug?) so I could live through stuff if I blocked all the time.

    I miss my roar, finding it in dps and untouchable by me was... upsetting.

    for now

    End of Line...
  • xsmallz14xxsmallz14x Posts: 9Member Arc User
    @asterdahl Even with having all the aggro abilities put on you still can NOT keep aggro even slightly. I also found even using the shout (which is suppose to put you at the top of the enemies threat list) You actually don't ill pop it to try and peel off the healer or squishy DPS but the mobs just ignore me and continue attacking everyone but me. I have zero ability to tank on that class you can't hold aggro and staying alive or doing damage is just as hard. This rework NEEDS REWORK.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    @asterdahl Even with having all the aggro abilities put on you still can NOT keep aggro even slightly. I also found even using the shout (which is suppose to put you at the top of the enemies threat list) You actually don't ill pop it to try and peel off the healer or squishy DPS but the mobs just ignore me and continue attacking everyone but me. I have zero ability to tank on that class you can't hold aggro and staying alive or doing damage is just as hard. This rework NEEDS REWORK.

    Barbarian is high on my priority list, and I will be ensuring that it can tank as well as paladin and fighter. We have done some recent internal playtests on the preview build and one of our testers was able to hold aggro as a Barbarian. However, I will be taking a close look at its aggro generation and mitigation abilities this week.
  • xsmallz14xxsmallz14x Posts: 9Member Arc User
    Ok but having to stack all the aggro abilities on to my bar when I would rather play a different way with my tanking is IMO stupid design. Like Im sorry but this Mod is making it feel very pigeonholey like you can't play at all how YOU want to play because there is no viable versatility. In Mod 15 you had the option to build your build in a whole lot of ways you could build to your play style with how many options you had. In Mod 16 there is 3 options and they all suck and isn't what play style I desire to play.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Ok but having to stack all the aggro abilities on to my bar when I would rather play a different way with my tanking is IMO stupid design. Like Im sorry but this Mod is making it feel very pigeonholey like you can't play at all how YOU want to play because there is no viable versatility. In Mod 15 you had the option to build your build in a whole lot of ways you could build to your play style with how many options you had. In Mod 16 there is 3 options and they all suck and isn't what play style I desire to play.

    I'll talk to our tester about what build he was using, but I don't think he took a full tray of aggro abilities. The goal is not that you'll need to take all aggro abilities to keep aggro, but that you can mix and match in most cases. You'll probably need to bring at least 1 aggro generating encounter and at-will as a tank.

    Unfortunately I can't help you if you want to tank without taking any tanking powers. You say that requiring tanking powers to tank is a stupid design, yet, if that weren't the case, tanking powers would have no purpose. The goal of almost any group is to get through the content as fast as possible, why take a mitigation or threat generating ability if you never need it?

    That said, the more confident you become, and the better your damage though, the more you can swap in damaging powers. You can also swap in damaging powers if you're running with weaker DPS, as you won't need to struggle as much to maintain a threat lead. Do keep in mind though, that the more you can keep the enemy's attention, and prevent the healer from struggling to heal you, the more your team as a whole can focus on dealing optimal DPS.
  • nl54#3191 nl54 Posts: 117Member Arc User
    People don't roll a gwf/barbarian for tanking purposes. I swear I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Might as well make rogue tanks while you're at it.
    Ninurta - 16.1k Half-Orc GWF

    Ereshkigal - 12k Tiefling SW

    Aurora Ravensong - 11.6k Drow CW
  • xsmallz14xxsmallz14x Posts: 9Member Arc User
    I more meant I take the at will aggro and the shout for threat generation and that should be AT LEAST able to hold aggro somewhat but its not. And there isn't tanking abilities really for barbarian. A tank normally can hold aggro while also support/self-sustaining themselves. Barbarian fills like its in a super weird place with that. They can't hold aggro nor can they damage and they have no support or reliable self-sustain. And I feel like I can't pick and choose what aggro abilities I want or what powers I think would help me tank because the powers themselves are not balanced well. Like Reaping Strike (the self heal IIRC) would be a nice ability to help self sustain but the damage it deals is nothing and the healing you get from it is about 1/3 of the damage from 1 hit from a mob and it doesn't even help with aggro. Just more needs to be done to make it playable and fun.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    nl54#3191 said:

    People don't roll a gwf/barbarian for tanking purposes. I swear I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Might as well make rogue tanks while you're at it.

    Barbarian still has access to the Blademaster paragon path which is pure DPS. Great Weapon Fighter had a tanking feat tree for the longest time that just wasn't viable, so we decided to finally make this a viable choice. This simply gives more options for tanking so that there are more tanks to complete group content with.

    That said, if you don't like tanking, by all means stick to Blademaster, there's no need to play Sentinel.

    I more meant I take the at will aggro and the shout for threat generation and that should be AT LEAST able to hold aggro somewhat but its not. And there isn't tanking abilities really for barbarian. A tank normally can hold aggro while also support/self-sustaining themselves. Barbarian fills like its in a super weird place with that. They can't hold aggro nor can they damage and they have no support or reliable self-sustain. And I feel like I can't pick and choose what aggro abilities I want or what powers I think would help me tank because the powers themselves are not balanced well. Like Reaping Strike (the self heal IIRC) would be a nice ability to help self sustain but the damage it deals is nothing and the healing you get from it is about 1/3 of the damage from 1 hit from a mob and it doesn't even help with aggro. Just more needs to be done to make it playable and fun.

    Thanks for the feedback, we agree with you that Barbarian is not in a great place right now. I will be making some significant changes over the next few weeks.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Posts: 144Member Arc User
    edited March 14
    -
    Post edited by rafamarques#5700 on
  • luffyhaki123luffyhaki123 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    edited March 2
    nl54#3191 said:

    People don't roll a gwf/barbarian for tanking purposes. I swear I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Might as well make rogue tanks while you're at it.

    wrong dont talk for people or words into people mouths, u dont know what people want. People will play it as a tank and a dps thats why it got paths for both, I swear its like people are born without brains now. Wanna play dps? play the dps path , wanna play tank, play the tank path, is it really that hard to understand? I will be playing a barbarian tank so proved you wrong on no one does.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,234 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2

    about reaping strike...

    you have 3 primary problems here, live or preview.

    1 - being a manual casting and not automatic - like aimed shot for exemple - holding your attack for only 0,1 sec less than the "limit" (2,7 instead 2,8), is enough to wasting a lot of time/damage.
    2 - stack bonus/chance on hit to trigger some effect"x" vs number of hits over time. so... just to give a exemple, offensive recovery+reaping strike will be counterproductive.

    3 - exposed, passively, to enemies attacks (control in the first place). if you are not interrupt, receive some extra determination... should be a heavy damage bonus, but anyway.

    the single advantage of that power have is the big radius, nothing more. poor damage, "added effects",synerg to every other power/feat/class feature (steel blitz and so on)... anyway. aesthetically is a great power.

    about a lot of other encounters damages... the diference between the majority of encounters, live or preview, is too big and that low damage powers dont have any good effect, great radius, range, or future synerg to compensate it (maybe punishing charge now).
    sorry my terrible english

    No need to apologize, thanks for going the extra mile to provide your feedback here on the English forums!

    I understand that people are pretty unhappy with reaping strike all around, so I'm going to definitely make some adjustments to it. As you say there are also quite a few barbarian encounter powers in a bad spot, that will also get adjustments. Such as mighty leap and punishing charge.
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Posts: 1,536Member Arc User
    edited March 2
    Since I play console mostly my pc testing character isn't really that great in comparison, but the at-will Blademaster's Strike(WMS replacement) since its target based not AoE makes the power rather meh compared to it's old self, im fine with the debuff being removed, but the AoE part of it matches the animation, gives you more of a reason to use it and also gives a player a reason to use Destroyer class feat for AoE/Campaign areas since currently there's a fair lack of decent AoE to even keep destroyer going, which AoE of the at-will will solve that.

    Haven't gotten to Brash Strike yet to test it, and you know reaping is...

    Sure Strike is fairly alright though i'm sad to see the follow up hits dmg increase being reduced from its former self, but it would help keep it as a staple power to use for ST.

    Do consider switching Takedown and grand fissure, GF doesn't make much sense for the dps path and Takedown would suit DPS more, though Takedown wouldn't make a good level 77 power so have Takedown take one of the following powers position Hidden Daggers or Battle Fury.

    Steel Resolve should probably get a revamp, doesn't fit in the dps path, could possibly fit in the Tank, but I could never see it being used versus the rest.

    Weapon Master adding 1,500 Crit doesn't seem like enough to justify it's use like the old WM, maybe think about giving it a decent boost. (Was typically used for those not at 100% crit back in older mods)

    Maybe reconsider Unbreakable Wills self dmg reducer, dealing dmg still plays a part in keeping aggro.

    In general from other peoples overall testing of the classes gwf currently falls shy above dc for dps, and the lowest tank out of the tanking classes. It lands about 56% as effective of the top dps HR(100%) being top with TR very close behind with 99%, then CW 84%, SW 70%, GF 68%, Pally 64%, GWF 56%, DC 50%. Overall Gwf would need a decent boost to get it up to where it's supposed to be in terms of dps.
    Post edited by ltsmithneko on
  • trentbail21trentbail21 Posts: 433Member Arc User
    Can someone post the feats for both paragons here for us console guys?
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Posts: 954Member Arc User
    Overall, Barbie is terrible. Cant hold aggro with tank spec, cant do dps with dps spec.
    It is the single weakest class, and my 5k hours are ending here. My other class is OP. not playing that either. Shame, was gonna put in a few bucks, to finish my r14s.
  • muminekm#3459 muminekm Posts: 248Member Arc User

    Overall, Barbie is terrible. Cant hold aggro with tank spec, cant do dps with dps spec.

    It is the single weakest class, and my 5k hours are ending here. My other class is OP. not playing that either. Shame, was gonna put in a few bucks, to finish my r14s.

    Did you not see all posts that GWF dps and tanking will be seriously readjusted in next weeks? If you think that some of the skills are too weak then just post feedback here.
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