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Official M16: Fighter Feedback

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  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    edited April 23
    asterdahl said:

    Greetings everyone. As I indicated in my previous post, I had to step away from the forums as we closed in on the final release candidate, there simply weren't enough calendar hours remaining to hit all the remaining feedback items and bugs while also posting regularly. However, this week, we built our release candidate—so I now have some time to reply again.


    Thanks for the response on Enforced Threat and its ilk; that actually helps its function and ideal timing in a fight to click a bit better. I'd still like to see some damage on it to give it a more rotational role (we just don't have enough powers available at a time for it to feel good to put something on your bar that, if the fight is going well, is almost never on cooldown. I know there's been a focus on pruning the function of powers that do a lot of things at once; it seems to me that a similar thing to avoid is "powers that you never ever slot when [choose one of: solo/group]" so allowing it to keep some of its niche of being effective against big packs of little things seems like a good move)

    I take your meaning, but how easy it would be to land that skillshot would depend entirely on how generous the collision path is. If it were only as wide as the character model, it would definitely still be possible to whiff, but even then, at least it wouldn't turn you around and face your back directly to three enemies that, at the time you pressed the button, were in line to be hit by it.
    The problem I'm having with Linebreaker stems from the comorbid interaction of three factors: the activation time is a little long(or maybe just a little unresponsive? need to test it some more), the mob AI is very aggressive about repositioning, and the origin point of Linebreaker's damage cone is fairly unforgiving. I'm certainly not going to beat a drum that a power be fundamentally changed for my sake, but I don't think making it a little easier to hit multiple targets would be a bad thing, either-maybe a hemispherical burst? Just spitballing, there, but the fact remains that, as it stands, that power feels frustrating to use about as often as it feels good.

    I like the sound of those Dig In changes, although the counterattack feature really feels like something that should be baked into the ability, rather than something locked behind a feat for... how many levels? It almost single-handedly turns it from a redundant second block to an active tool; it seems a shame to delay that until your second-to-last feat. Perhaps make the counterattack part of the feature, and have the feat either reduce the cooldown or turn it into a Burst effect?
    Given the aforementioned reluctance of mobs to group up tightly, how many enemies in a pack of, say. five, would you expect an average player to be able to hit with that cone?

    Honest question, and I welcome any answer, even if it's not the one I want to hear: are you guys, as a team, at all open to moving feats away from the "slot this one power or this feat does nothing" paradigm, or the even more frustrating "slot these two powers or this feat does nothing" one? Feats have the potential to add a lot of depth and variety to the game, but it just feels... I don't want to say oppressive, but it's somewhere in that emotional spectrum- to look at your character and realize that a nonflexible part of your build is completely negating the flexibility of the supposedly flexible part.

    I know that comparing rival games isn't the best rhetorical technique, but the reason that WoW can have talents that only affect a specific power and not have them feel bad is that those have no opportunity cost- granting that power additional functionality doesn't stop you from using any of your other powers, so it only adds something. Because Neverwinter characters pull a small, flexible selection of powers from a larger list, any feat that only functions for a specific power (or combination of powers) has an inherent, and hefty, opportunity cost.

    In regards to Dig In and the reworked "Shake It Off" feat, the counterattack element has been reworked into a core part of Dig In, as a class mechanic: "Retaliate." The basic version of Retaliate will be available immediately upon choosing Vanguard, and the "Shake it Off" feat will now grant bonus damage based on your remaining stamina. In regards to the size of the cone, you've probably had a chance to play with it a bit by now, but it is fairly large, so you shouldn't have too much trouble hitting a pack of enemies.

    In regards to feats as they relate to using specific powers. I spoke about this a bit in the Barbarian thread, but I'll address it here and try to go even a bit more in-depth. First, we completely understand the difference between feats that enhances powers in Neverwinter vs. talents that enhance specific powers in WoW, we know that there's a psychological difference at play. I will admit I was personally a little surprised by how visceral the reaction was from some players about a feat column that targeted a specific type of scenario not having any use during a different scenario.

    An example of that would be: if there's a feat column wholly devoted to AoE, I was surprised how negative the feeling was that that feat column was not doing any work for someone in a single target situation. And some of you have been very frustrated about being in that situation. Of course, we are all prepared for negative feedback and reactions when we make even small changes, so we were definitely prepared for a negative reaction. But I'm happy to admit that particular element was a surprise for me.

    But to address the topic of why we made the choice to tie some feat columns to specific powers: the goal was to offer different playstyles, to allow powers to serve different purposes in different situations or for different builds. We hoped that these designs would offer more tangible differences in play style from build to build than a general across the board passive effect.

    If you look at some of the feats available before Module 16, many of their effects are rather simple and don't change your gameplay in significant ways. Now, certainly there are some older feats that do change the class in significant ways, for instance the old capstone feats. And there are some feats like that still in Module 16. And while we could offer 5 columns of general class mechanics that have a significant impact, if they're not tied to specific powers, that means they're changes that are occurring across the board on all or some large subset of your powers.

    With such a large number of passive or triggering effects like that, every action can quickly become an unintelligible slew of effects. With Module 16 we made a conscious effort to try to reduce those sort of effects, so that when you use an action a the outcome is predictable, readable, and more consistent. Both to benefit the gameplay of the class using the power, but also so that your allies, or enemies in PvP can understand what is happening.

    I apologize for such a longwinded explanation, but hopefully that at least answered your question about why we decided to design some of the new feats in that way. Now to answer the first part of that question: would we consider changing those feats? Absolutely. We will be watching carefully for continued feedback once the Module goes live, and an even wider audience of players has a chance to play with the new feats.

    That being said, I would like to make it clear that if we were to change those feat columns which are focused on specific powers to be more general powers, those replacement feats would be on the simpler side, as we'd still like to avoid overloading every play with a number of special triggered effects.
    I first want to say that I appreciate the level of thought in play, even if I don't always agree with your conclusions.

    For feats, there are a couple of failure criteria that make for a "bad feat," from my perspective.

    The biggest one is engineered uselessness, where a feat is literally worthless, basically junk data, in one or more modes of play. Any feat that ONLY affects threat, for example, is meaningless in solo play or PVP- it might as well not exist in those situations. It doesn't have to be AS meaningful in those scenarios as in group play, but it shouldn't do nothing at all.

    The next, and one I'm glad to see you've moved away from, is double jeopardy, where a feat ties up two power slots or else does nothing. You've basically done away with that paradigm, so enough said on it.

    Feats that are simply too narrow, or where the tradeoff isn't worth it (or both). The fourth Vanguard tier is empty if you prefer to use other dailies, and setting a three minute cooldown on one of your daily slots is generally going to be a dealbreaker in any case.

    Feat with obscure or hard-to-quantify effects: Combat Balance and Critical Deflection both fall under this category; you can't tell by looking at the feat what it's actually going to do for you based on your current gear, and they're going to change in efficacy with every change in equipment. I would actually categorize these as overcomplicated, especially for the actual value they offer.

    One of the best-designed feats, in my opinion, is the wizard feat that I refuse to call anything other than "conductive ice" that encourages a combo-y playstyle by buffing all of their electrical damage against chilled targets. I'll grant that for predominantly physical classes, it's harder to call out and employ such synergies, but that feat is interesting because it gives you a broad category of power interactions to build your loadout from- you need electrical powers, and a power that applies Chilled, but have a fair amount of freedom in which specific ones you use.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    @asterdahl

    If you genuinely like the feel and function of Critical Deflection and Combat Balance, then I urge you to build in, and reflect in the tooltip, an efficacy "floor" such that neither feat can operate at below half of its maximum efficacy, no matter how far the player's stats deviate from the 'ideal' stipulated in the feat.

    I also urge you to doublecheck that normal damage resistance from Defense or from powers, are applying properly to Blocked damage(obviously, Combat Balance's resistance isn't supposed to, but some testing has indicated that even defense from gear is not applying to block HP).

    I will say that, for critical deflection the formula is a linear ratio between the two stats, moving between a 0% bonus and the full bonus as described. Combat Balance meanwhile is the result of the Coefficient of Variation of the three stats. I do understand the desire for more information in the tooltip, however, we are also trying to keep the information digestible and not overwhelming.

    In regards to damage resistance vis-a-vis blocking: blocking leverages the same shielding system as temporary shield sources like the Paladin's divine barriers, and should have no effect on damage resistance, however, it also leverages some newly written code—in order to tie that shield effect to your stamina, so I will double check that there are no issues and let our QA team know that this is a suspected problem area. If you can post your ACT logs, screenshots of your tests, etc. that would be helpful!
    Our resident Took did some in-depth testing and it appears that our passive defenses are applying correctly to the block and dig in "shields," so it seems likely that our general experiences with our stamina not lasting long enough in a fight are a matter of unpredictable damage spikes rather than fundamentally broken defenses.

    I'm not saying that the specific equations for the feats need to be in the tooltip (although they should definitely be posted somewhere accessible), but a tooltip saying "At your current ratings, this feat grants you X% stamina/damage reduction" would be helpful.

    I'm going to trot out again the request for a return of Functional Stats to the character sheet, basically a section that says "against enemies in this zone, you have A% damage resistance, B% critical strike chance, C% deflection, D% chance to be critically struck." I understand that the information is technically available to players, but as a system-grokking person married to a system-blind person, I can say that the current way the information is packaged is not very accessible to the latter kind of person.

    I know it requires the engine doing a little more under-the-hood math, but it's also kind of farcical that you have to consult your character sheet AND the map to know what your actual functional stats are in a given area.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    edited April 24
    asterdahl said:



    In regards to Dig In and the reworked "Shake It Off" feat, the counterattack element has been reworked into a core part of Dig In, as a class mechanic: "Retaliate." The basic version of Retaliate will be available immediately upon choosing Vanguard, and the "Shake it Off" feat will now grant bonus damage based on your remaining stamina. In regards to the size of the cone, you've probably had a chance to play with it a bit by now, but it is fairly large, so you shouldn't have too much trouble hitting a pack of enemies.

    In regards to feats as they relate to using specific powers. I spoke about this a bit in the Barbarian thread, but I'll address it here and try to go even a bit more in-depth. First, we completely understand the difference between feats that enhances powers in Neverwinter vs. talents that enhance specific powers in WoW, we know that there's a psychological difference at play. I will admit I was personally a little surprised by how visceral the reaction was from some players about a feat column that targeted a specific type of scenario not having any use during a different scenario.

    An example of that would be: if there's a feat column wholly devoted to AoE, I was surprised how negative the feeling was that that feat column was not doing any work for someone in a single target situation. And some of you have been very frustrated about being in that situation. Of course, we are all prepared for negative feedback and reactions when we make even small changes, so we were definitely prepared for a negative reaction. But I'm happy to admit that particular element was a surprise for me.

    But to address the topic of why we made the choice to tie some feat columns to specific powers: the goal was to offer different playstyles, to allow powers to serve different purposes in different situations or for different builds. We hoped that these designs would offer more tangible differences in play style from build to build than a general across the board passive effect.

    If you look at some of the feats available before Module 16, many of their effects are rather simple and don't change your gameplay in significant ways. Now, certainly there are some older feats that do change the class in significant ways, for instance the old capstone feats. And there are some feats like that still in Module 16. And while we could offer 5 columns of general class mechanics that have a significant impact, if they're not tied to specific powers, that means they're changes that are occurring across the board on all or some large subset of your powers.

    With such a large number of passive or triggering effects like that, every action can quickly become an unintelligible slew of effects. With Module 16 we made a conscious effort to try to reduce those sort of effects, so that when you use an action a the outcome is predictable, readable, and more consistent. Both to benefit the gameplay of the class using the power, but also so that your allies, or enemies in PvP can understand what is happening.

    I apologize for such a longwinded explanation, but hopefully that at least answered your question about why we decided to design some of the new feats in that way. Now to answer the first part of that question: would we consider changing those feats? Absolutely. We will be watching carefully for continued feedback once the Module goes live, and an even wider audience of players has a chance to play with the new feats.

    That being said, I would like to make it clear that if we were to change those feat columns which are focused on specific powers to be more general powers, those replacement feats would be on the simpler side, as we'd still like to avoid overloading every play with a number of special triggered effects.

    Dovetailing with my last reply, how do you account for how much more oppressive the tanking classes' feat choices are, even for their dps specs, than the rogue, wizard, or ranger? Those classes seem to have been able to get feat trees that don't lock in more than one or two powers over the entire tree, and even then, each power-tied feat had a viable alternative that was more of a playstyle feat.


    Shield Thrower is tolerable because it creates a way to have 100% uptime on Combat Superiority, even if the power itself is goofy and would be better replaced with Axe To The Head! or a javelin toss, but Staying Power can and should apply to ANY encounter use, and should honestly give something that has any value at all in solo content. A small Accuracy buff helps shore up low damage gulfs without adding to spikes, and thus thematically ties into the feat name, so that'd be my suggestion.

    Cleaving Bull could be Sweeping Strikes, being triggered by any single-target encounter power, and its counterpart could be renamed to Aggressive Shield Tactics and be triggered by Tide of Iron, Threatening Rush, and the blocking Shield Bash.

    You know my feelings on Critical Deflection and Combat Balance. They're too opaque, and frankly a frustrating design. I think Critical Hits and Deflections giving each other bonus severity (up to a reasonable cap of, say, 15% from three stacks of 5) is a great feel and stresses the adaptability of a Fighter while still giving you a reason to chase stats you'd otherwise probably ignore (since Deflection is objectively worse than Defense until you've capped the latter, incentivizing it is a GOOD thing, and tanks will usually want arpen for consistent threat, but might be willing to branch into crit for better mitigation)

    For Combat Balance... Blocking with Guard or Dig In gives you stacks of Balanced Fighter, which increases power by X and reduces damage taken while not blocking by Y% per stack, with each unblocked hit removing a stack.

    Tier 4 can easily end up a dead tier: for those that like the "bulk up and go to town" playstyle that Villain's Menace used to offer, a 3-minute cooldown on Determination is just a non-starter, and we have other ways of dealing with Combat Advantage, anyway. Bladed Rampart isn't a bad power, but it's also not engaging enough that I feel good about being forced to take it.

    For the Dreadnaught, Crushing Blows is deeply hampered by the fact that it wants you to keep a hardcapped stat higher than an uncapped stat. The old version that spent Vengeance into crits was vastly superior, and didn't have this frankly unpleasant flavor that you seem to have gotten into of feats that push specific stat ratios.
    Its counterpart is a little odd; I gather that it's supposed to provide a sustain mechanism for Vengeance provided that you seethed it up to half, but since it's set in opposition to a "vengeance flow" feat, I'd suggest it also carry a small buff to crit severity at full Vengeance, so its effect doesn't feel "wasted," since the only other option for spending vengeance is one of the single-power feats for a power that you could easily build a loadout without.

    The feats that work around Heavy Slash are better designed in that they are more open-ended; if those were the only single-power feats in the tree, the tree would be fine.
  • pyc87pyc87 Posts: 20Member Arc User
    Танк стал уныл. спасибо за то что настолько кардинально изуродовали. Даже Он был лучше в м1-2. когда все плевались если в данжеон закидывало танка. печально. я любил этот класс. Был самым динамичным и полезен в любой группе... был

    The tank has become sad. Thanks for being so completely disfigured. Even He was better in m1-2. when everyone spat if a tank was being thrown at dungeon. sadly I loved this class. Was the most dynamic and useful in any group ... was
  • cilginordekcilginordek Posts: 438Member Arc User

    Dig In: Animation too long. Retaliation is a nice addition, which takes this from being completely useless to acting as a 4th encounter with long cast time. It needs to allow rotation in place and it needs a faster activation to actually be useful as a defensive tool.
    (It sometimes bugs and leaves you permanently with Dig In block effect even though you can do other stuff. When that happens you cant Retaliate anymore and it becomes completely useless again.)


    Enforced Threat: Threat is generated by damage. Damage comes mostly from encounters. This power does no damage. By taking this instead of a damaging encounter, you lose 1/3rd of your potential threat generation. Making enemies look at you for a few seconds isn't worth it in return. This needs damage added to it, or some other thing to make up for giving up your very valuable encounter slots to it.


    Iron Warrior: Extremely long cooldown, long animation and short uptime. I like the idea of having a defensive encounter, but there is not a single situation where you can use this to survive, where you wouldnt if you didnt use it.
  • wilsonekpolskawilsonekpolska Posts: 25Member Arc User
    edited April 26
    Hello some feedback after this went live
    First i speak about DPS path but feats and class features are mostly bad or give not much and he is way off if we speak about diffrent DPS for example Vigorous Strikes give 10% crit rate when your staimina gauge is full hmm when is so much ez to get all caps is no sense to use. Greter Endurance Why that give movment speed X_X? feats dont give much if we look for Barbarian feets he rly have better one i think this few example is oke but more and more exaples can be found. and for now he rly is bad if we speak about dps :/
    Pls fix feats and Class Features :)
  • tardbathtardbath Posts: 34Member Arc User
    FBI : last boss, using shield when she is spawning ice does nothing and traps you inside the ice ! this happened 4/4 times in a row.In mod 15 shift used to block the ice trap and just push you back BUT always outside of the ice cage ! plz take a look when you can.

    Best
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,009Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    tardbath said:

    FBI : last boss, using shield when she is spawning ice does nothing and traps you inside the ice ! this happened 4/4 times in a row.In mod 15 shift used to block the ice trap and just push you back BUT always outside of the ice cage ! plz take a look when you can.

    Best

    Good catch.

    You should still be able to dodge it easily - watch for Drufi to raise her sword straight up over her head in both hands, that happens about 2 seconds before the ground circles appear, which should give you tons of time to get away from your starting point - but yeah, that's definitely a big difference in behaviour from Mod15.

  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 975Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Mod 16 Patchnote> @lowjohn said:
    > FBI : last boss, using shield when she is spawning ice does nothing and traps you inside the ice ! this happened 4/4 times in a row.In mod 15 shift used to block the ice trap and just push you back BUT always outside of the ice cage ! plz take a look when you can.
    >
    > Best
    >
    > Good catch.
    >
    > You should still be able to dodge it easily - watch for Drufi to raise her sword straight up over her head in both hands, that happens about 2 seconds before the ground circles appear, which should give you tons of time to get away from your starting point - but yeah, that's definitely a big difference in behaviour from Mod15.

    Agreed. I experienced this a few times during open preview.
    But soooo many other bugs to post about forgot to mention it.

    It's a problem with several CC effects currently on live that Fighter shield does not prevent.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 975Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    > @cilginordek said:
    > Dig In: Animation too long. Retaliation is a nice addition, which takes this from being completely useless to acting as a 4th encounter with long cast time. It needs to allow rotation in place and it needs a faster activation to actually be useful as a defensive tool.
    > (It sometimes bugs and leaves you permanently with Dig In block effect even though you can do other stuff. When that happens you cant Retaliate anymore and it becomes completely useless again.)
    >
    >
    > Enforced Threat: Threat is generated by damage. Damage comes mostly from encounters. This power does no damage. By taking this instead of a damaging encounter, you lose 1/3rd of your potential threat generation. Making enemies look at you for a few seconds isn't worth it in return. This needs damage added to it, or some other thing to make up for giving up your very valuable encounter slots to it.
    >
    >
    > Iron Warrior: Extremely long cooldown, long animation and short uptime. I like the idea of having a defensive encounter, but there is not a single situation where you can use this to survive, where you wouldnt if you didnt use it.

    DigIn:
    Sigh.
    Took has given up arguing on this.
    Agreed. It's only use is as a "4th encounter".
    But, if it were an encounter, it is an encounter I would never willingly slot, being sporadic, unpredictable and redundant.

    Enforced Threat:
    Agreed.
    This is yet another contradiction (at best)/hypocritical (at worst).
    "You must do damage to gain aggro" (The "Jane Equation") is what we were told.
    "No hard taunts" we were told.
    Yet our #1 aggro encounter is a zero-damage hard taunt.
    Choose a lane.

    Iron Warrior:
    I agree with Tony, but will add... in addition to faster animation, slightly longer duration needed to make it worth slotting.
    It will only be used in scale-down 1-hit dungeons...
    (almost everything before Mod 16 for >lvl 70)...
    ... but if we are forced to use it it needs to last longer or have a shorter CD.

    Finally, an uncharacteristic compliment...
    @asterdahl, threat generation on Vanguard greatly improved from open preview to Live launch.
    I have no trouble holding aggro on my Vanguard. Thank you.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    edited April 29
    Just gonna point out here that Shield Slam and Onslaught are unslottable on Dreadnought.

    I agree with all those asking for a cooldown indicator for Counter (our real tab function). It could be a numerical indicator, or even a colored overlay on the icon with a radial fade, but something to let us know when we can counter again.
  • cilginordekcilginordek Posts: 438Member Arc User
    edited May 3
    Aggro indicator does not match the mob aggro in dungeons.

    Dig In needs to cancel animations. It is already possible by just using shift to cancel animation then dig in right after to get the same effect, but why make it difficult than it needs to be? It's not like Dig In needs more reasons to be inconvinient.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,009Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited May 3


    Enforced Threat: Threat is generated by damage. Damage comes mostly from encounters. This power does no damage. By taking this instead of a damaging encounter, you lose 1/3rd of your potential threat generation. Making enemies look at you for a few seconds isn't worth it in return. This needs damage added to it, or some other thing to make up for giving up your very valuable encounter slots to it.

    .... Enforced Threat is not for holding Threat. It is for immediately *getting* Threat on mobs where someone else has already built up a stack of of it. I find it super-handy for getting the attention of a mob that's chasing a DPS or the healer - if I need 1000 Threat to get aggro and I have power that does 1200 Threat worth of damage, that's better than Enforced Threat. If I need 10,000 Threat to get aggro that second power is useless, I can pound on that mob all day long and it won't look at me over a DPS who's still hitting it. Enforced Threat is for jumping ahead of someone who's built more threat than you while you were doing something else.

    Also, using it on a crowd, followed by Shield Throw and a bunch of Cleaves or some damage reflection, tends to give me a nice solid threat lead on the entire crowd. And if I start losing the crowd because of a good AoE DPS picking off the ones I'm not focusing on, Enforced Threat brings them back.


    Also, sheesh, Dread, it's *not a hard taunt*. It's a soft taunt with a value that scales based on current top threat. It's a meaningful distinction: A hard taunt causes the mob to be unable to not attack you for a set time, then expires and aggro returns to being Threat-based so if you haven't generated enough Threat in the taunt time, you lose the mob. A soft taunt sets you to the top of the aggro table and if you keep generating Threat you stay there, if you don't generate Threat you lose the mob quickly.

    In my hypothetical from above: You are 10,000 Threat behind on a target who's been chasing the DPS while you work on something else. You generate 1200 Threat a second, the DPS generates 1000 Threat a second because they're just really good. You use a Hard Taunt that lasts 10 seconds: You are top aggro target for 10 seconds, and then the mob goes back after the DPS and you've barely caught up because you only generated 2000 of the net 10,000 Threat you needed to catch up.

    Imagine, instead, you use a Soft Taunt: You are immediately set to 11,000 Threat, and now your 1200 to the DPS's 1000 means you keep aggro forever - because your Taunt was soft, it doesn't expire.


    Now reset and imagine you're falling behind the DPS in Threat numbers, badly. You generate 1200/s and the DPS generates 1500/s, and you're behind by 10,000.
    Same Hard Taunt: You hold aggro for 10s (the length of your Hard Taunt) then lose it then the power expires.
    Same Soft Taunt: You hold aggro for 3.5s then lose it as the DPS burns through your 1000 Threat buffer. Because you used a Taunt, you got attacked. Because your Taunt was soft and you lacked Threat generation, you lost aggro quickly.



    All Taunt powers in Mod16 are soft taunts, they move you to the top of the Threat table but don't force the mob to ignore Threat and attack you exclusively, and they don't expire.
  • cilginordekcilginordek Posts: 438Member Arc User
    @lowjohn
    Only place I've found my threat lacking was Demogorgon 1st phase, and there ET does what I described in the post.
  • cilginordekcilginordek Posts: 438Member Arc User
    Shieldthrower Feat(Vanguard): Tooltip says it reduces magnitude to 250, but magnitude is reduced to 150.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,009Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    @lowjohn
    Only place I've found my threat lacking was Demogorgon 1st phase, and there ET does what I described in the post.

    Yeah, that's because Demogorgon is immune to damage in that phase so there's no way to get threat on him directly. Since it's not a hard taunt, you can't hold his aggro when your Threat generation is zero and everyone else's is non-zero as they do damage and heal.

    If you don't need it, absolutely don't use it. I've just found it really useful for grabbing and holding groups, myself.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    Just holding out hope that the "fixes" we were promised in that mea culpa include feat reworks for all of the tank classes.
  • cilginordekcilginordek Posts: 438Member Arc User
    edited May 9
    Momentum Class Feature(Dreadnaught): The feat does not work every time Bull Charge is used, casuing you to still be able to knock down targets and not deal additional damage.

    It feels like it triggers more reliably when used while moving.
    Post edited by cilginordek on
  • cilginordekcilginordek Posts: 438Member Arc User
    Prepared Slam Feat(Dreadnaught): Only works with Shield Slam. Does not work with paragon encounters like Onslaught or Tremor.

    I assume this is because paragon encounters have the classification Encounter(Paragon) as opposed to just Encounter.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User

    Prepared Slam Feat(Dreadnaught): Only works with Shield Slam. Does not work with paragon encounters like Onslaught or Tremor.

    I assume this is because paragon encounters have the classification Encounter(Paragon) as opposed to just Encounter.

    Possible- still a bug, since there are no non-paragon AoE's other than Shield Slam, which is also why the Vanguard is so frustrating to play in groups, since you can't spread around threat without sending things flying.
  • ingvar74ingvar74 Posts: 1Member Arc User
    Всем привет!
    Я играю на на сервере Drider. Обратная связь у нас на сайте слабая - ответов долго ждем. Появились вопросы и надеюсь получить на них ответы.
    1. Последнее время экипировка у всех одинаковая, нет выбора по нужности классу - для всех оружие ( щит) одинаково - несколько комплектов ,а характеристики у всех похожи (кому-то нужно могущество и критический урон, кому-то оборона и уклонение, а кому-то критический урон и уклонение или их возможные комбинации). А у нас два пути один на урон, другой на защиту. И комплекты брони, наручи, шлема, обувь - разнообразить по урону и обороне ( или возможности комбинации).
    2. У Вarbarian энергия "TAB" - это ярость она копится при уроне (вроде, если не прав исправьте). У Чернокнижника "TAB" - это искры душ. У Воина "TAB" и "SHIFT" - это все бодрость, две механики имеют одну энергию. Если я ухожу из "SHIFT" в "TAB" и наоборот, когда много противников, бодрости нет и это приводит к смерти персонажа. Где столько бодрости взять, если стоят боевые умения на урон ( без них соло прохождение превращается в мучение, урона и так мало).
    Под "TAB" персонаж стоит на месте и не может увернуться от урона по площади, особенно от воздушных (ведьма в Баровии в задании "Старая Мельница", раньше ее доставал "ВЫПАД").
    3. Опишите действие механики "Путь авангарда" описание не дает полной картины. Какой ее принцип действия.
    4. Что такое "вершина списка ненависти", раньше "Принудительная ненависть" заставляла атаковать меня и наносила немного урона.
    И еще вопросы по умениям ветки Vanguard (у нас Авангард).
    5. Классовая особенность:
    "Энергетические удары" нужно ли стражу из Авангарда 10% к критическому удару? Может "Сорвиголове" и нужно.
    "Талант щитоносца" - на сколько и от чего - от блока, от урона, от жизни от чего?
    "Стойкий воин" - мне после 25% жизни нужно думать не об уроне, а о выживании.
    6. Боевые умения:
    Натиск быка - он по соло, тогда почему у "Рассекающего быка" в описании по нескольким целям?
    6. Навыки:
    "Критическое парирование " - привязка у танка к критическому удару и совпадению трех характеристик одна из которых у танка на одном из последних позиций?
    "Боевое равновесие" - танк должен применять блок, а в тексте. если не применяешь блок.
    "Идеальный блок" - время раз в три минуты не слишком ли долго? Так артефакт работает.
    "Глубокое дыхание" - какой еще урон в "TAB" ???- стоит и все.
    "Стряхнуть" - при выходе из "TAB" почти нет бодрости. От чего урон от остатков - это минимальные значения.
    7. Ежедневные:
    "Фаланга" - имеет малый радиус 16, а бросок щита 50 (сопартийцы должны стоять рядом почти по боссом).

    Извините за перевод от Google.

    Hello dears!

    I play on the server Drider. Feedback on our website is weak - we are waiting for answers for a long time. There are questions and hope to get answers.

    1. The last time the equipment all the same, there is no choice on the usefulness of the class for all the arms ( shield) is the same - a few sets ,but all have similar (someone needs power and critical damage, someone defense and evasion, and someone critical damage and evasion, or their possible combinations). And we have two paths, one for damage, another for defense. And sets of armor, Bracers, helmet, shoes - to diversify the damage and defense ( or the possibility of a combination).
    2. Have Вarbarian energy TAB is the rage when it accumulates damage (like, if wrong please correct). The Warlock's "TAB" is the sparks of souls. Have Warrior "TAB" and "SHIFT" - this all cheerfulness, two mechanics have one energy. If I go from "SHIFT" to "TAB" and Vice versa, when a lot of opponents, there is no vivacity and it leads to the death of the character. Where so much courage to take, if there are combat skills for damage ( solo without them, the passage becomes a torment, and so little damage).
    Under "TAB" character stands still and can not Dodge the damage on the area, especially from the air (the witch in Barovia in the job "Old Mill", before it got "LUNGE").
    3. Describe the action of mechanics "the Way of avant-garde" description does not give a complete picture. What is its principle of action.
    4. What is the "top of the hate list", used to be "Forced hatred" forced to attack me and did a bit of damage.
    And other questions about the skills branch of the Vanguard (we have vanguard).
    5. Class feature:
    "Energy shots" should have custody of the Avant-garde 10% to critical strike? Can "Daredevil"( Drendout) and need.
    "The talent of the shield-Thane" - what and what - from the unit, from damage, from life, from what?
    "The steadfast soldier" is to me after 25% of life we need to think not about the damage, but about survival.
    6. Combat skill:
    The onslaught of the bull - he's solo, then why do "Cutting the bull" in the description for several purposes?
    6. Skills:
    "Critical parry" - the binding of the tank to a critical strike and the coincidence of the three characteristics of one of which the tank in one of the last positions?
    "Combat balance" - the tank must apply the block, and in the text. if you do not use the unit.
    "Perfect block" - time every three minutes is not too long? That's how the artifact works.
    "Deep breath" - what other damage in "TAB" ???- worth it.
    "Shake off" - when you exit the "TAB" almost no vivacity. What damage from the residues is a minimum.
    7. Daily:
    "Phalanx" has a small radius 16, and the throw of the shield 50 (members must stand side by side almost at the boss).
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 308Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @asterdahl ,

    Ive just checked how Enforced Threat is working on owlbear.
    You were supposed to add some graphic add on to let us determine easier witch mobs are affected with that skill - thanks for listening to my kind request but.....

    So not sure - I may be blind - but I couldnt notice any added visual, apart of very fast and delicate red/pink kinda splash/mist showing on mobs for a 1 second or so. Its barely visible while solo, and tbh it requires map such as Bryn Shander (white bckground all over the palce) to be able to even notice that. But forget it works in group combat - no chance to see it - at all.

    And to make things stright - I have graphic settings maxed out.

    And on top of it - never had a chance to check that before but Enforced threat do not aggro any mob.
    So it can be used to bolster a threat but not to aggro a group or single target by itself.
    (check on Bryn Shander mobs - those are busy with fighting the guards so you can approach them close enaugh not to get aggro but enaugh to use ET and see there is no response to it)

    So if tank wont do damage to a target before using Enforced threat it wont be affected with it and wont relocate aggro on tank. - You can experience that with massive pulls - usng ET seems not to work on some mobs - for a good reason - and its not only range issue here - if dps was first to hit those and tank didnt add any damage on target - then there is no chance that ET will affect such mob.

    So @asterdahl IMO this skill needs a serious rework - not only with adding really visible visuals :D but above all with adding a magnitude to it. Fighter tank is not anywhare near that 80% dps output of pure dps you claimed it will be (talking about end game BIS top notch party setups with really skilled dps).

    So adding some magnitude (100?) wont be a game breaking and actually help this encounter to work as intended - now it is just broken (not to mention that sometimes I got filling it is not affecting more then 5 targets - pretty much like tremor)
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Posts: 198Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    I don't plan to changes KV to be party wide. That style of gameplay where the tank can absorb all of the party's damage taken is something we have intentionally moved away from. In reality, unless the damage transferred was massively reduced, KV could also cause the Vanguard to die nearly instantly in a huge number of situations.

    @asterdahl
    If you have moved away from the party wide ability to help the party survive on a tank why does the OP have the ability to put up a shield that covers the entire party? That is the reason that people want KV to help the party in a similarly useful manner as to what the OP is doing. This is also why people ask more for that class in LoMM and other dungeons. Either remove the shields from the OP or give barbarian and Fighter the ability to have the same effect on the party surviving. Else, you have no way to help those players who are just bad players in the game unless you play OP and you are driving players to use the OP tank class over the other tank classes. Since you are also keeping the fighter and barbarian dps side on the low end of doing damage in game this means that over time very few will see the worth for those classes in the game. In other words the multi role classes are not as good as other classes in either role and are being given lesser abilities. All of the tank classes can do other roles so this isn't as if only the OP should be able to play the tank role.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence (GH20)
    Yule (Barb): 25k : Siren (TR): 23k : Torun (DC): 24k : Siren OP (OP): 24k : Siren SW (SW): 21k : Modern (F): 23k : Cherry1 (CW) : 21k
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,130Member Arc User
    So this is a mistake due to some devs missed the meeting where partywide protection was disussed?
    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Life_Bind
    Mayby you inform those missing person and tell him.:it actually does not work and kills classes without a tanksetup
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 308Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @asterdahl

    In short - its not about a Fighter being broken - its not that...

    It is broken of course - you know - clunky low responsive Tab mechanic, feats, some powers - usual stuff - we are used to that.

    Thing is Fighter currently is simply not needed for anything.

    Tanks in general are not needed - with exception for Paladin but even Paladins are not apreciated as tanks - they are needed as healers/ shiled spammers

    Fighters are gettin out of a picture.

    DPS path - we are at the bottom of the dps list - good work to make us irrelevant here.

    Tank path - yes it works, have lot issues but works - BUT - there is no need for it - Paladin (not in tank spec) is far better party protector.

    I was trying to tell you that tanking ideas you choose from wont work.
    We were trying to explain what is broken - to no avail.

    Where is our 80% dps output of pure dps classes? Non existent

    Where is our sturdniess expected of tanks - not existent - as I said before many times - we are just bigger sacks of HP here but not by bit more sturdy then other classes.
    (And thats the point where taking away Armor Class just bited your HAMSTER)
    Where are the tools to be a party protectors? Non existent (Again Paladin have it - but not! as tank)

    And last but not least - tanks are not really needed, and with new idea to reduce any kind of oponents we face (bosses included) HP by 10% it will make killing even faster, so tanks wont be needed even more.


    And all above suits for ALL tank classes/specces in game.
    Fighter can add tons of our own issues.


    Sure you can keep to those ideas
    But dont be suprise that new meta dps4+1healer/Paladin or 3dsp+2 healers/dpsers will rule this game.
    It actually already started its reign over here.

    I know - you are under pressure of players who complain about game being too hard.
    So you keep increasing toons power and decrease oponents values.

    I guess you are aware how its gona end up - players gona be equally powerfull as before MOD 16, but this time without need of tons of buffs/debuffs and with a new meta - not including tanks - at all.

    Will make my last effort and will prepare last big feedback, but I know it will only serve to keep my conscience clear here.
  • cerberusforcescerberusforces Posts: 162Member Arc User
    Good to know, 2 yaers played like GF tank/buff. I like play def char. After few months i want back to the game but i see that it isn't worth it.
  • devilxjkdevilxjk Posts: 40Member Arc User
    edited June 2
    after about 2 hour of act test on test server , my damage is =live server, 10% vengeanc buff+ enchant buff + heavy slash attack nerf = no differences
  • fsf4livefsf4live Posts: 3Member New User
    Hey. Here is my feedback on fighter.

    Tank:
    It is ok. It can deal great damage. In my opinion it is too much. A well played vanguard has a higher damage potential than a dreadnought. Maybe a rework of the 4th master boon could be the key to balance that.

    DPS (my main path):
    It is really fun to play. I love it. But DPS fighters are too weak. We can't compare with other DPS classes, like wizards or rangers. My ideas for a balancing:

    1) lower couldowns on our encounters
    - Normally I would say, that our at-wills should be buffed, because they are really HAMSTER. But GF was a class which does high burst damage. So my advice is to force our encouters to keep that playstyle up. Maked them more powerful would be OP, because we have the strongest encounters. But if we can use them a little bit more often, we could increase our damage.

    2) better feats
    - I looked at rangers, because they do massive damage. I couldn't compare with our ranger, who has the weaker equip. Their powers aren't better then ours. But their feats are awesome and make the powers much stronger. They have one for +30% crit severity or one for double at-will strength. That is really op compared to our feats (espacially the last two).

    Thanks for reading. And sorry for some mistakes. English is not my first language.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Posts: 152Member Arc User
    > @fsf4live said:
    > Hey. Here is my feedback on fighter.
    >
    > Tank:
    > It is ok. It can deal great damage. In my opinion it is too much. A well played vanguard has a higher damage potential than a dreadnought. Maybe a rework of the 4th master boon could be the key to balance that.
    >
    > DPS (my main path):
    > It is really fun to play. I love it. But DPS fighters are too weak. We can't compare with other DPS classes, like wizards or rangers. My ideas for a balancing:
    >
    > 1) lower couldowns on our encounters
    > - Normally I would say, that our at-wills should be buffed, because they are really HAMSTER. But GF was a class which does high burst damage. So my advice is to force our encouters to keep that playstyle up. Maked them more powerful would be OP, because we have the strongest encounters. But if we can use them a little bit more often, we could increase our damage.
    >
    > 2) better feats
    > - I looked at rangers, because they do massive damage. I couldn't compare with our ranger, who has the weaker equip. Their powers aren't better then ours. But their feats are awesome and make the powers much stronger. They have one for +30% crit severity or one for double at-will strength. That is really op compared to our feats (espacially the last two).
    >
    > Thanks for reading. And sorry for some mistakes. English is not my first language.

    Could you please explain how you deal more damage with your Vanguard than with Dreadnaught?
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