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Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

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  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    hustin1 said:

    vorphied said:

    hustin1 said:

    vorphied said:

    hustin1 said:

    hustin1 said:

    Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

    No it isn't. We just lost up to 30% damage resistance with the cap change. We just got royally screwed.

    I am so done with this mod. I'll see you in mod 17.
    Enemies HP fell by 30%. That means that your opening encounter powers now take ovver 64% more of their HP. So you may not be able to survive as long, but you no longer *have to.*
    There is NO WAY that the change to enemies makes up for having your damage resistance go from 80% to 25% -- not with the damage they do. To me this is a dealbreaker. I now have zero intention of doing this mod. I'll invoke my way to 80 instead.
    What character are you concerned about that would actually be affected by this, anyway?

    Tanks have gigantic HP pools and mitigation tools to compensate, and they are the only role that could reasonably think about hitting any kind of damage resistance cap without siphoning off other, more necessary stats.

    DPS not only have (or should have, when the design is on point) the highest damage output, they were already not getting much benefit at all from defensive stats if built for their intended purpose (i.e. no reasonable DPS gets anywhere close to 80% damage resistance without the live version of Shepherd's Devotion being abused).

    Healing supports, when caught in the rare situation where they need to solo something, simply need enough juice to kill a pack of mobs before their healing resources and cooldowns become an issue. Also not realistically able to hit 80% damage resistance.

    TL;DR: I think you're drastically overestimating the significance of this change in regards to non-tank characters, and tanks should have absolutely nothing to worry about. As far as solo content goes, no one has anything to worry about except when other things are not WAI (e.g. broken mob scaling, underperforming class design, etc.).
    I spend 99% of my time soloing, and so I have high defense on ALL of my alts. My HR (main) has the highest on live and already hits around 90-95% DR when the bondings kick in. If I swap all her companion gear and companions around it can go past 130%, which is of course overkill. That said, all of my alts have robust defense stats -- they need them when soloing. I'm actually not talking mainly about tanks, as out of 16 alts I have only one GF and one OP and I don't play them often at all.

    While you may prefer to play this way, you do know it's really not necessary, right? None of those characters need tank-level defenses to get the job done solo. If you have enough stat points right now to be maxing out your defenses on your DPS characters, you could easily swap them over to offensive stats and simply kill everything before it has a chance to deal any significant damage.

    The only time I am not soloing is when in specific dungeons and trials, so my advice comes from what I imagine is similar experience.
    So, it's okay to force a single playstyle now? I can't keep up. I thought we considered cookie-cutter builds to be a bad thing.
    It's not that anyone is trying to force a playstyle, just that it doesn't make much sense to stack that much defense (32k<x<72k defense prior to this most recent change,or 16k<x<66k (assuming max arpen is 16k for monsters in LoMM) when you could change that over to offensive stats and one shot most things with encounters and survive off of HP buffer.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,141 Arc User

    You are turning the game into a carpal tunnel at-will snorefest. 4E D&D was not that, many fights were (as M15 is for some classes) spamming your encounters and before you run out everything is dead (other than for variants of classes based around at-wills).

    A situation that is addressed by them making the at-wills more meaningful moment-to-moment. You're still probably going to use Encounters on the big thing or the caster, but you'll be able to kill mooks with at-wills before they come back off cooldown.
    My point was until you got to the big boss the group spammed their encounters, maybe the odd daily and the only time I used an at-will at high level was for an attack of opportunity other than with a class variant that was based on them, I had enough encounter powers as did everybody else and stuff died.

    My problem with what's going on is that taking several at-wills to kill a mook is not my idea of fun when it used to be 1-2.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Basically what arazith07 said.

    Also, I thought meaningful play style choices were key to this discussion. Things like X power vs. Y power with Z feat selected, not “clear content normally” vs. “take a really long time to kill stuff by building counterintuitively.”

    Generally it wouldn’t matter to anyone else even if a player wanted to play a tank wizard in a solo loadout, but the game shouldn’t be balanced to cater to that extremely niche option.
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  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    re %damage modifiers, to put them into perspective, 3% damage means an at will that is only dealing max 500 damage, is getting a boost of 15 damage. A daily that hits for 100K gets a boost of 3k. If that same daily gets boosted by increased power to 500K then that 3% damage modifier starts to become noticeable at 15K.

    Basically, with the heavily reduced damage numbers we are doing, plus x% damage doesn't mean a lot. They still add up, but not like we are used to on live. And the increased stats from the new gear probably have more value than our level 70 gear that has those bonuses.
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  • fingolfin#9928 fingolfin Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    I basically agree with most of the previous comments that this new changes HAMSTER us all over the board but if it's implemented correctly and some additional small tweaks are made (slightly increasing enchants and mount equip ratings, balance racial bonuses, etc.) it might play well and actually be a good QoL improvement.

    Now as a player who like to min/max I have a question that's been bugging me. With the stat ratio increased to 1000:1, base stat values will become more significant. I’ll give you an example with enemy’s CA vs. your Awareness where this is most prominent.

    at lvl 70: enemies presumably have 57k CA and a base value of 10k. Now if the base value is added to the given stat - you’ll need 67k Awareness to counter the enemy’s CA. If it’s calculated within those 57k i.e. 47k +10k base - you’ll need 57k. That’s 10k stat difference.

    So which one is correct?
  • wolfnbootswolfnboots Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    Why nerf stat values by 50% when you could just put in diminishing returns after a certain cap? I mean, if the goal is to sell less companions, mounts, enchantments, etc. then this is a great way to accomplish it - everything in the zen store that isn't wards or cosmetic has been nerfed 50%. And all this with less than a month to launch? How is that a good idea?
  • ruslan1404#8974 ruslan1404 Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    Now that preview has been going for several weeks now and there has been an immense level of feedback for us to review, we have made some core changes to further improve the balance. These will likely go to preview later this week, barring any complications.

    • Ratings now convert at 1000 rating points to 1%
    • Defense now caps at 50% damage ignored. Certain temporary buffs can bypass this cap up to a maximum of 80% damage ignored.
    • Critter ratings have been adjusted to have two values. Defense/Deflect/Combat Advantage/and Crit will be a higher value than the other four ratings. Critter ratings have been adjusted as well. Ex: level 70 critters will have 7,000 rating for Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, and Armor Pen. They will have 57,000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike. At endgame, the higher ratings are always 50,000 more than the lower ratings.
    • Encounter and Daily magnitudes have been brought down, making At-Will powers more effective in relation.
    • Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board
    • Multi-target At-Wills have had their damage increased

    So why were these particular changes made?

    With the values ratings currently have, players routinely either have below the threshold for a given rating which means it has zero effectiveness, or they have wasted stats because the cap for effectiveness has been exceeded.

    By changing the conversion from 500 to 1% to 1000 to 1% it gives a wider variance in values. This in turn allowed us to lower the critter ratings so that players who have even minimal viable gear should find it easy to see some effectiveness from their ratings. In addition, separating the critter ratings into two categories allows for all ratings to have similar investments put into them for effectiveness. The way it is on preview now, players need over twice as much for half their ratings which is an odd balancing act.

    There has been no shortage of talk about At-Wills not feeling meaningful enough to want to use. While mathematically over the course of a fight, or dungeon run, they added up to a significant amount of damage, it didn't feel that way due to the size of individual hits. To bring At-Wills closer to other powers, we reduced the magnitudes of Encounter and Dailies and reduced overall critter health to adjust for the lower overall damage.

    As with all aspects, further changes could happen before this goes live.
    Now power=(1+n/40 000)=multiplier in % damage
    n=our power

    Preview power=(1+n/50 000)

    Update Preview
    will you do power=(1+n/100 000) ?
    Post edited by ruslan1404#8974 on
  • arazor#8195 arazor Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    is it just me or do the at wills seem underwhelming? i like the encounter powers and "most" mechanics but the at wills seem to be lacking. i understand that you guys are working hard and i thank you for that, just wondering if at wills are made to be really weak for the fighter.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited March 2019


    I know that a lot of players do like to min/max their values, but you don't need 57k accuracy to see a result.

    We will never completely ignore any stat, just because of the "combined" ratings, and if people have a full set of BiS gear, they will actually have a decent base number in every stat, just from the "combined" ratings.

    The issue is not really about how much to put into stats like Accuracy. The issue is whether to put anything in such stats at all, if you have another stat you have not yet maxed out and where you would gain more by increasing that stat. For example, if you could allocate, say 1000 points either to Armor Penetration or Accuracy, you can calculate the incremental increase in DPS from either choice. If it turns out, say, that additional 1000 points in ArPen would give you a bigger DPS increase than additional 1000 points in Accuracy, there is no good reason whatsoever to put those points into Accuracy, until you have maxed out ArPen.

    We have a similar situation with Crit Avoidance (or Crit Resist - make up your mind, please....both are used all over, and it is really confusing for new players). It's just not a viable choice. I have said it before, and I will say it again - I really think you should increase the Crit Severity for mobs significantly, to get it to the point where it becomes viable to spend points on Crit Avoidance/Resist.

    Overall, though, I think I am OK with the 1:1000 change and the 7K/57K split. I need to test it, of course, but unless my calculations are way off, this is really no big deal, at least for me. There are changes in M16 that I am upset about and consider an absolute disaster, but this is not one of them.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,259 Arc User

    So are you going to double the stats on enchants to make up for this? All this change is designed to do is bring BiS and brand new players even closer together. With the new stats if nothing else changes the difference between a player with all rank 14 offensive enchants and a legendary mount against a player with rank 8 enchants and an epic mount will be about 11% stat difference which could be split as something like 7% additional CA and 4% extra crit chance

    The AD cost between the 2 builds is tens of millions of AD. I will need to see it in practice, but if you do not adjust enchants/leg mounts you have basically made all the AD we spent years accumulating a total waste.
    Someone can just hop onto the game grind to level 80 through under mountain and grab one epic mount and a couple of companions and they are going to be pretty close to a player who has dedicated years to the game

    You are basically invalidating everything that costs a lot of AD.

    No need to have more than 1 legendary companion as bolster adds very little. No need to have a leg mount as it adds a whopping 2% of 1 stat compared to an epic mount. No need to spend money upgrading weapon enchants from moderate as difference is negligible, No point upgrading to level 15 enchants as again difference is tiny. The only thing that costs money that is going to be needed is bonding runestones, but even they are not as effective as they were with the low stats offered from runestones in companion gear.

    All stats now basically lie in gear and companions and some of the starting boons which can be gotten within a few months of playing. If this was your goal then at least be honest about it and stop telling people it was to balance the game. It was to make this game easy for new players to play the end game content without putting in the work that the current player base have

    And that is just what they want. Open the doors to new players that come with money, so they feel that spending some money (not insane amount of like now) they can have competent characters to run most of the content.

    Im not saying i agree with this (I will be affected like you, I have 2 BIS characters) but if you see it from a economical perspective is a good reason. Dont forget that if we dont have new players the game will die and that is bad for everyone. If they make it more easy to catch up, thats good for atracting new people.

    This objetive is clear, and the game overhaul also was made with new players in mind, so they can understand the game mechanics more easily and dont feel overwhelmed with so many mechanics / interactions / etc.
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  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    You are turning the game into a carpal tunnel at-will snorefest. 4E D&D was not that, many fights were (as M15 is for some classes) spamming your encounters and before you run out everything is dead (other than for variants of classes based around at-wills).

    A situation that is addressed by them making the at-wills more meaningful moment-to-moment. You're still probably going to use Encounters on the big thing or the caster, but you'll be able to kill mooks with at-wills before they come back off cooldown.
    If you are in a class/paragon that has multi-target at-wills. Those that only have single-target ones are not so lucky.
    Next time I'm on the preview server, I'll try slotting just single-targets and let you know how it goes.

    Can definitely say that powers like Cleave were so low-damage they were a bad joke, while Brazen Strike was outputting damage at a point where that 30% hit to mob health should be all it takes to bring it in line.
  • adders79#8251 adders79 Member Posts: 72 Arc User


    And that is just what they want. Open the doors to new players that come with money, so they feel that spending some money (not insane amount of like now) they can have competent characters to run most of the content.

    Im not saying i agree with this (I will be affected like you, I have 2 BIS characters) but if you see it from a economical perspective is a good reason. Dont forget that if we dont have new players the game will die and that is bad for everyone. If they make it more easy to catch up, thats good for atracting new people.

    This objetive is clear, and the game overhaul also was made with new players in mind, so they can understand the game mechanics more easily and dont feel overwhelmed with so many mechanics / interactions / etc.

    I agree with you this is 100% what they are aiming for, but what they are basically saying is we do not care about the existing player base. I don't agree that the game dying is a bad thing. All games end eventually and in some sense the game is ending because it is not anything like the current neverwinter game. It feels like if cryptic released a dumbed down mobile version of the game this is what it would be.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    A few questions about races and the changes to feats. Humans got bonus feats, is this now gone and humans no longer have the


    Aye, you are correct. I still haven't heard a reason for the much longer cool down times other than "to keep us from being too powerful".

    The changes to cooldowns has been discussed in different places, but it is easy to lose track of that information in the sea of threads that is M16.

    There are multiple reasons. The first is overall balance and how the powers relate to one another. Dailies get used least frequently and therefore do the most damage, Encounters get used a medium amount and do medium damage and At-Wills are used frequently and do the least amount.

    Another big reason is strategy and planning. When Neverwinter launched, encounter and daily powers were not spammable. Later updates added more and more ways to keep reducing these cooldowns, and eventually everything could be spammed. This takes meaning, strategy and planning away from the use of powers and we wanted to restore that meaning as well as bring the game back to its original intentions for those power types.
    I rather see my cooldowns reduce and the damage of my encounters reduce so I can use my encounters more often.
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    Human gets 250 pts in every stat and +3 in one Ability score.
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  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    adinosii said:



    I will be doing less damage than before, but the 30% reduction basically balances that out - fights should take about the same time as they currently do on Preview (which is about twice as long as they take me on Live), so, quite frankly, this is no big deal.


    If content is going to take 2x longer to complete you will loss 50% of your the game population day 1. Not everyone has 6-8 hours a day to play a game. Not everyone is going to want to grind out one mission that is going to take 2x longer to finish. If something takes me 20 minutes now I don't want to spend 40 minutes on it in mod 16.

    As someone who enjoys convenience as much as possible this game is doing nothing but adding unneeded time to an already grindy game that some players simply won't deal with. Especially considering the in game rewards are behind multiple RNG walls that simply deflate a person desire further.

    The more I see post like this stating it is taking me 2x longer to run content the more I see players walking away from NWO. Is that the goal is @noworries#8859 ?
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User

    A few questions about races and the changes to feats. Humans got bonus feats, is this now gone and humans no longer have the


    Aye, you are correct. I still haven't heard a reason for the much longer cool down times other than "to keep us from being too powerful".

    The changes to cooldowns has been discussed in different places, but it is easy to lose track of that information in the sea of threads that is M16.

    There are multiple reasons. The first is overall balance and how the powers relate to one another. Dailies get used least frequently and therefore do the most damage, Encounters get used a medium amount and do medium damage and At-Wills are used frequently and do the least amount.

    Another big reason is strategy and planning. When Neverwinter launched, encounter and daily powers were not spammable. Later updates added more and more ways to keep reducing these cooldowns, and eventually everything could be spammed. This takes meaning, strategy and planning away from the use of powers and we wanted to restore that meaning as well as bring the game back to its original intentions for those power types.
    I rather see my cooldowns reduce and the damage of my encounters reduce so I can use my encounters more often.
    Yeah, the whole 1/fight thing only works, and even then, only sorta, in an actual 4e environment where you have access to all of the encounter powers you took every fight, rather than a selection of 3 from a class-wide list.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    adinosii said:



    I will be doing less damage than before, but the 30% reduction basically balances that out - fights should take about the same time as they currently do on Preview (which is about twice as long as they take me on Live), so, quite frankly, this is no big deal.


    If content is going to take 2x longer to complete you will loss 50% of your the game population day 1. Not everyone has 6-8 hours a day to play a game. Not everyone is going to want to grind out one mission that is going to take 2x longer to finish. If something takes me 20 minutes now I don't want to spend 40 minutes on it in mod 16.

    As someone who enjoys convenience as much as possible this game is doing nothing but adding unneeded time to an already grindy game that some players simply won't deal with. Especially considering the in game rewards are behind multiple RNG walls that simply deflate a person desire further.

    The more I see post like this stating it is taking me 2x longer to run content the more I see players walking away from NWO. Is that the goal is @noworries#8859 ?
    My impression from the brief amount of playtime I had was that fights take twice as long, but mobs were reduced in frequency, so there's half as many of them. But that might just have been the nature of when I was testing and other players having eliminated all of the mobs.
  • midental#5256 midental Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    I do not understand the issue. If I spend more time doing activities, where is the problem? The aim of the game is to play together (MMO) and do activities together. If I spend more time nothing changes. Moreover, the game is free.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    I do not understand the issue. If I spend more time doing activities, where is the problem? The aim of the game is to play together (MMO) and do activities together. If I spend more time nothing changes. Moreover, the game is free.

    The question is player retention. If players don't feel like they're making progress as they play the game-that is, if the game is boring of otherwise frustrating-then players will not be retained by the game. But no one actually knows with any certainty what does and doesn't retain players, so everyone acts like their own personal preferences are the only way to keep players.

    You occasionally have contrarians that suggest ideas they'd personally hate as the way to retain players, but those are few and far between.
  • midental#5256 midental Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    Honestly, I find the game as boring as it is now. All super fast and maximized. Power fast run and if it takes a few more minutes to do an activity it means wasted time. The Mobs melt away, the Bosses too. There is no challenge. Honestly this is really boring.

    Maybe having a strategic fight with mechanics that make you think about how to deal with mobs, etc., maybe it's preferable to have a team that dissolves everything without any difficulty.
    But it falls within the sphere of personal tastes and everyone, rightly, has his own opinion.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    I do not understand the issue. If I spend more time doing activities, where is the problem? The aim of the game is to play together (MMO) and do activities together. If I spend more time nothing changes. Moreover, the game is free.

    Not all players play 6-8 hours a day. Some of us have a life outside of the game.
  • midental#5256 midental Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    I do not understand the issue. If I spend more time doing activities, where is the problem? The aim of the game is to play together (MMO) and do activities together. If I spend more time nothing changes. Moreover, the game is free.

    Not all players play 6-8 hours a day. Some of us have a life outside of the game.
    But I understand that. I don't have it either. I only play a couple of hours at night max 3. Even if I spend 3 more weeks completing a campaign, nothing happens. Even if I arrive at the CAP of the character 6 months later nothing happens. I mean I just don't understand this "running" thing ......
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    Honestly, I find the game as boring as it is now. All super fast and maximized. Power fast run and if it takes a few more minutes to do an activity it means wasted time. The Mobs melt away, the Bosses too. There is no challenge. Honestly this is really boring.

    Maybe having a strategic fight with mechanics that make you think about how to deal with mobs, etc., maybe it's preferable to have a team that dissolves everything without any difficulty.
    But it falls within the sphere of personal tastes and everyone, rightly, has his own opinion.

    I mean, if you have a personal preference that's fine and all. But a lot of people like to act like it's THEIR personal preference that can save the game and everything else dooms it to oblivion.

    On balance, NWO has always erred on the side of too easy rather than too hard. It's part of the brand identity.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User

    Honestly, I find the game as boring as it is now. All super fast and maximized. Power fast run and if it takes a few more minutes to do an activity it means wasted time. The Mobs melt away, the Bosses too. There is no challenge. Honestly this is really boring.

    Maybe having a strategic fight with mechanics that make you think about how to deal with mobs, etc., maybe it's preferable to have a team that dissolves everything without any difficulty.
    But it falls within the sphere of personal tastes and everyone, rightly, has his own opinion.

    I mean, if you have a personal preference that's fine and all. But a lot of people like to act like it's THEIR personal preference that can save the game and everything else dooms it to oblivion.

    On balance, NWO has always erred on the side of too easy rather than too hard. It's part of the brand identity.
    Yes and no. The content is currently "easy" due to runaway power interactions and certain specific builds that exploit the mechanics, and pretty much inaccessible otherwise. If you're tanking without 360 degree block and massive amounts of temp HP tacked on, you're having a bad time.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    Honestly, I find the game as boring as it is now. All super fast and maximized. Power fast run and if it takes a few more minutes to do an activity it means wasted time. The Mobs melt away, the Bosses too. There is no challenge. Honestly this is really boring.

    Maybe having a strategic fight with mechanics that make you think about how to deal with mobs, etc., maybe it's preferable to have a team that dissolves everything without any difficulty.
    But it falls within the sphere of personal tastes and everyone, rightly, has his own opinion.

    I mean, if you have a personal preference that's fine and all. But a lot of people like to act like it's THEIR personal preference that can save the game and everything else dooms it to oblivion.

    On balance, NWO has always erred on the side of too easy rather than too hard. It's part of the brand identity.
    Yes and no. The content is currently "easy" due to runaway power interactions and certain specific builds that exploit the mechanics, and pretty much inaccessible otherwise. If you're tanking without 360 degree block and massive amounts of temp HP tacked on, you're having a bad time.
    Well that's true. I've always just sort of walked around and melted stuff as a CW that never bothered running any endgame content, but I've had time to get rank 11+ enchants and make a lot of money from professions. Newcomers aren't going to have that benefit after all.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Health needs to be changed in the new stat system. The positive defaults need to be increased to have an effect even at low level.


    Raise Critical Hit chance, Defense, and Deflect to 10% base chance.

    Raise Combat advantage to 20% base chance.

    Health needs to become: 1% bonus per 1000 stat, like everything else. The amount of health gained = Level * 5000 * bonus%



    Deflect still needs to be improved. Here is one way to equalize Defense and Deflect:

    Defense: Reduces damage by its percentage. Further negates an amount of damage equal to 25 times character level times Defense%.

    Deflect: Chance to completely evade damage/attack on success.


  • tassedethe13tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User

    onin002 said:

    lowjohn said:

    Yes lowjon I did miss that. If you can quote where he said -30% to all monsters I'd love to read it. Unless you're referring to "Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board" which does NOT mean all monsters but a very specific set of monsters.

    "Critters" are not a category of monsters. He means "all monsters". @noworries#8859 back me up here?

    Critters is the internal term for all monsters, yes :)
    And bosses?
    My guess is anything that can crit-hit you is a critter.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist. (Stat is too low).
    Dont be sorry ! Making puns makes us more comfortable with the joke of the balance of stats/classes of mod 16
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