anti elitism more problematic than elitism?

24

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  • lldt
    lldt Member Posts: 201 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    I think people have a complete miss conception of elitism.

    I think you are misunderstanding the term. Elitism doesn't refer to everyone who is elite. It refers to the small percentage of elites who have an extreme elitist attitude.

    The OP does have a point. The guild I'm in, you are not allowed to ask for IL in alliance chat (and should accept any who respond). I see it enforced by the leaders , yet these same people don't ever use the alliance/guild chats to look for players. They whisper to the players they want. Even the alliance leader does this. They don't want to be the ones forming a group that fails or inviting just any player into an existing group, just like anyone else. There's a bit of hypocrisy, but it is understandable too.

  • spidey#3367
    spidey#3367 Member Posts: 400 Arc User


    Best is when you carry someone and then some isn't going right and they are pointing the finger at you or someone who's doing a swell job :'D

    True =) That is the best ^^
  • ecrana#2080
    ecrana#2080 Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User
    Another point I haven't seen mentioned here is that a lot of guilds have minimum ILs to join. So it's not hard to tell your guild members they can't check IL to set up runs when you're min IL requirement to join is 12-13k without guild boons.
  • klangeddin
    klangeddin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 882 Arc User



    Then the problem isn't anti-elitists, it's elitists that pretend to not be one.

    "I'm a casual, I only play 2 hours a day!"

    /facepalm
  • someonedies
    someonedies Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,257 Arc User
  • majorcharvenak
    majorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User

    lldt said:



    The OP does have a point. The guild I'm in, you are not allowed to ask for IL in alliance chat (and should accept any who respond). I see it enforced by the leaders , yet these same people don't ever use the alliance/guild chats to look for players. They whisper to the players they want. Even the alliance leader does this. They don't want to be the ones forming a group that fails or inviting just any player into an existing group, just like anyone else. There's a bit of hypocrisy, but it is understandable too.

    Then the problem isn't anti-elitists, it's elitists that pretend to not be one.
    I hate to think it but after the FBI run I just pugged I think I might be one of the latter and I'm hating myself because of it. We had a GWF, whom (I'm pretty sure) was on their first or second run within the dungeon. They were above min IL and the lowest of the group but they fought through climb without any problems, ran through the Hati and Turtle without issue but started to falter right before Drufi. Got there, the ice dance took them and the other GWF out of the fight twice. During the second attempt another player recommended to me that I kick the lower GWF and I made the call during the fight. The worst part is that we didn't even need to kick them as Drufi went down a little bit later. :s Never been more ashamed of myself while gaming - even when I'm the one who's kicked.

    The question I have for folks in either camp is - Is there or can there be some kind of balance struck between the two positions? Can there be some kind of medium position where the lesser geared come to a dungeon eager learn, not expect to be carried, play their best, and the elitists not be so quick to overlook them when teaming or quick to kick them when the run goes starts to go south? Or is there nothing that can be done? Not trying to derail the thread or be facetious, I'm actually curious to know.
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  • shadoewrayth
    shadoewrayth Member Posts: 178 Arc User

    just because I was better at my job..

    Nop. You where carried. I dont mean that as an offense. Its just a fact. Theese so called "elitist" often just fill up spaces for dungeons with theese so called "non elitists".
    I do this a lot, when i search for Tong or MSP. Even in CR i often carry someone with my group. Why not?
    Love how your answer is immediately to jump to “nah can’t be what he is saying”... things I forgot to mention: was still standing when others weren’t, my group couldn’t pull Aggro off me even they tried, I didn’t even really require much healing, they had problems keeping up with me in runspeed (because I firmly believe that a GOOD tank should be at the front, not just accepting/letting the GWF or whoever else run ahead if they want to die. A good tank takes a proactive approach to keeping up and ahead.

    But, go ahead, continue to believe that it is impossible for YOU to be wrong, which sort of proves the whole ‘elitism is bad’ point. Why is it bad? Because it causes a complete cessation in discovering truly new ways to do things, instead relying on the ‘tried and true’ methods spoon-fed to them by other elitists, or the calculators who only see the numbers for efficiency, totally discounting player skill, and very often missing other combinations of abilities. So, when any player actually outperforms their expectations, they MUST find a way to explain it away in some fashion that completely devalues that player and their choices.

    THAT is why elitism sucks, and is like a disease.
  • spidey#3367
    spidey#3367 Member Posts: 400 Arc User

    just because I was better at my job..

    Nop. You where carried. I dont mean that as an offense. Its just a fact. Theese so called "elitist" often just fill up spaces for dungeons with theese so called "non elitists".
    I do this a lot, when i search for Tong or MSP. Even in CR i often carry someone with my group. Why not?
    Love how your answer is immediately to jump to “nah can’t be what he is saying”... things I forgot to mention: was still standing when others weren’t, my group couldn’t pull Aggro off me even they tried, I didn’t even really require much healing, they had problems keeping up with me in runspeed (because I firmly believe that a GOOD tank should be at the front, not just accepting/letting the GWF or whoever else run ahead if they want to die. A good tank takes a proactive approach to keeping up and ahead.

    But, go ahead, continue to believe that it is impossible for YOU to be wrong, which sort of proves the whole ‘elitism is bad’ point. Why is it bad? Because it causes a complete cessation in discovering truly new ways to do things, instead relying on the ‘tried and true’ methods spoon-fed to them by other elitists, or the calculators who only see the numbers for efficiency, totally discounting player skill, and very often missing other combinations of abilities. So, when any player actually outperforms their expectations, they MUST find a way to explain it away in some fashion that completely devalues that player and their choices.

    THAT is why elitism sucks, and is like a disease.
    This i what i get even if i write "I dont mean that as an offense"? Oh my lord...what do i get if i spare the part with offense? =)

    Srly?
    Sry, but you are talking about CN and FBI.....
    You play an OP. Prot , i guess. I got a small OP toon ( 14 k) myself. I know how "hard" it is to tank with an Prot OP. Ofc you can hold aggro like a beast ( Or not when a GF uses KC ), ofc you can tank a lot. Thats the "thing" from an class with great def and tons of HP. I never said "nah..cant be what he is saying". I just said you where carried. And i said" No offense" bc i know this for fact, bc i do this very often when im bored and no one will do codg or cr/tong. And i really think thats not bad at all, to build a group with some lower GS people and run with them (for me) low level dungeons like CN or MSP or FBI. Why not?
    "disease"?.....you dont over react atm..... nc



  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    Its an interesting discussion. I was part of a large guild and alliance which did not allow IL when asking for groups and no-one was "supposed" to be refused a dungeon run.

    The reality is that a small group of people in the guild sat in Discord and ran the end game content themselves - occasionally throwing a bone to other players to "keep them happy". There was all sorts of anti-elitism talk but the reality is those at the top hid it by just not running content with most of the other players.

    So doesn't matter if you are invited into an anti-elitist guild, its still there just restricted to those on top.

    this sounds like the guild I was in.
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    I think the biggest problem here is the personal nature: WHO determines that another player just won’t be able to cut it, since they aren’t ‘leet’ enough? There is a minimum IL, yeah, but, if they are over that, and you still refuse them? Why? Because your personal opinion is such. That makes you an elitist, and by their very nature, someone ANTI-elitist is going to come off at least somewhat offensive, because they actively fight your mentality. And, I can personally testify to the fact that IL sometimes means absolutely zero. On Xbox, I tanked Orcus at less than 10K IL on a paladin. We had a good cleric, but she even said she barely had to heal me. I asked the normal tank what abilities they ran for Orcus, and saw they used more offensive, less tanky, stuff. So, yeah, while that player was accepted to go higher level things, and seen as a better tank, I quickly became the preferred tank for stuff I could even edge in just over the IL. They even took me to FBI when I could barely qualify, just because I was better at my job.

    So, stop thinking you know everything, give people a chance, you never know if you’ll find someone really good at their job, until you do. And, by telling them no, you also might have caused someone really good to give up just a bit more (they might have been refused a bunch already, just need one person to say yes).

    that person needs to join a good guild then and run with guildies and get their il up so they can find random runs. as far as high il potatoes... this is a small world. if someone really bytes regardless of their il the community figures it out. lol, the reason we're not going to take the super low il random is because 99 percent of the time they aren't that super hero. only so many hours in a day and if we're going to go that route they'd darned well better be a guildie.

    a guild has a lot of reasons to exist. the guild itself will dictate what it's purpose is. Most will try and do runs with everyone and try to get lower il ppl thru runs. some won't. the role of the alliance is decided by all the guilds in the alliance. you should try and find one that fits your needs at your personal current skill set.
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    just because I was better at my job..

    Nop. You where carried. I dont mean that as an offense. Its just a fact. Theese so called "elitist" often just fill up spaces for dungeons with theese so called "non elitists".
    I do this a lot, when i search for Tong or MSP. Even in CR i often carry someone with my group. Why not?
    yeah why not, if you can make it thru the run seemlessly with four no reason not to help someone out.

    lldt said:



    The OP does have a point. The guild I'm in, you are not allowed to ask for IL in alliance chat (and should accept any who respond). I see it enforced by the leaders , yet these same people don't ever use the alliance/guild chats to look for players. They whisper to the players they want. Even the alliance leader does this. They don't want to be the ones forming a group that fails or inviting just any player into an existing group, just like anyone else. There's a bit of hypocrisy, but it is understandable too.

    Then the problem isn't anti-elitists, it's elitists that pretend to not be one.
    I hate to think it but after the FBI run I just pugged I think I might be one of the latter and I'm hating myself because of it. We had a GWF, whom (I'm pretty sure) was on their first or second run within the dungeon. They were above min IL and the lowest of the group but they fought through climb without any problems, ran through the Hati and Turtle without issue but started to falter right before Drufi. Got there, the ice dance took them and the other GWF out of the fight twice. During the second attempt another player recommended to me that I kick the lower GWF and I made the call during the fight. The worst part is that we didn't even need to kick them as Drufi went down a little bit later. :s Never been more ashamed of myself while gaming - even when I'm the one who's kicked.

    The question I have for folks in either camp is - Is there or can there be some kind of balance struck between the two positions? Can there be some kind of medium position where the lesser geared come to a dungeon eager learn, not expect to be carried, play their best, and the elitists not be so quick to overlook them when teaming or quick to kick them when the run goes starts to go south? Or is there nothing that can be done? Not trying to derail the thread or be facetious, I'm actually curious to know.

    personal choices are the choices we make. personally i won't ever kick someone who is trying. if i've made the agreement to be in whatever run i'm in that's the run I'm in. if someone is being a hamster. not trying. sitting at the campfire then it's open season. if I really think it can't finish I'll quit first.

  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    Maybe elitists should be called realists.. they know what it takes to make a smooth run, and no amount of whining from lesser geared characters will make smooth runs with insufficient IL...

    BS :D
    I've seen elitists rage about other elitist within the 1st adds wave only because one did not use an artifact.
    Or because they used the 'wrong' skill.
    :'D
    those aren't elitists. they're hamsters. lol. immature kids (regardless of age) are immature kids raging on about this or that. I've seen low il crapsters do this and I've seen high il sometimes good sometimes HAMSTER ppl do this. it just means they're a jerk. thats a different thing.
  • fluffy6977
    fluffy6977 Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    Just to throw a couple of thoughts in.

    1. Elitism has a pretty varied meaning, but mostly tends to mean inflexible players who can't or won't adapt to the kind of group they end up with, and must run with x or else it will fail.

    2. Most runs with lower item level players fail because of a basic failure in the higher item level folks to adapt to different tactics. And this is a failure of the community as a whole - we no longer teach basic trinity mmo gameplay, so players don't have the basic skills to fall back on when the meta isn't working for xyz reason.

    3. More important than a high item level is proper armor pen for the activity. Too often people run into epic dungeons with 30% or less.

    4. I actually enjoy taking newbies through dungeons, particularly if the whole party is around the base item level. Much more challenging.

    5. I'd rather spend an extra 15 minutes clearing a dungeon than an extra 20+ looking for that last special high level whatever the hamster the leader is looking for. Ridiculous waste of time 9/10.
  • shadoewrayth
    shadoewrayth Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    The basic gist of every comment I am seeing here is, "Nothing is going to change. Elitists will continue to not see how they are being elite, and see nothing wrong with how they behave or think, and will make excuses for being that way, to rationalize their thought processes and decisions." meanwhile "Anti-Elitists will continue to do THEIR way, even against all proof or reasons to the contrary, and will utilize the exact same mentality that elitists use, coming up with their own excuses to justify their personal decisions."

    At what point do we start to just consider all posts that bring elitism/anti-elitism into contact as posts with a singular purpose of trolling, even if the OP did not blatantly intend to do so? Because, all I am seeing is 3 groups : elitists, anti-elitists, and those in between. The two first groups are bickering at each other with no signs of giving, and the third is attempting to make a middle ground which is promptly ignored by the other two, or taken by the other 2 as being part of the opposing camp (since they clearly do not 100% agree with their own outlook)

    Just my take on this. I see myself as being in the middle group, because I understand that the overall goal is to be the most efficient, and that is what I aim to do when I play. However, I also understand that it is a game, and games should have 'fun' as their primary goal, not 'job' or 'efficiency at the cost of fun'. I also aim to find NEW ways of being the best I can at what I choose to do, not just trudge behind my 'betters' as elitists would have everyone do. Because I am that way, I catch grief from both sides (perhaps not in this thread, but in the game as well).

    As for @spidey#3367 wrote, as soon as you use language like "no offence" or "with all due respect", etc, you ARE meaning offence and disrespect, you just want to cloak it as not being that way, it's a really old and cliched way to CYA. And anyone older than 30 automatically knows this and recognizes it. Doesn't matter how many LOL's or smilies or whatever you surround it with, the meaning is still the same. You assume what I am saying isn't the entire truth, because your own personal experiences (from an elitist perspective, btw) is that I had to be carried. Couldn't be any other possibility, not a bit. Must be nice to live in such black and white ways, while everyone else lives in a world full of myriad possibilities along the spectrum.

    This game has so many tiny details and factors all playing at one time, yet you are probably one of those that knows, and will cite, the charts and graphs of how X race/class/ability build is better, just because it did % better on training dummies. Yeah, I have read those, great reads, I take those things into great consideration, too. However, when in a fight, reaction speed, player skill, knowledge of powers, ability to make split second decisions based on spike damage, etc etc etc... just a simple issue of proximity and mob pathing changes, can turn that % difference into a negative, not a positive. But, you live in a black and white world where my IL being lower than others automatically means I had to be carried.

    So, yes, carry on, do whatever you wish, I only hope that you realize, first, that trying to toss in a "no offence" type comment automatically makes it offensive, and at this point in society, it is almost BEGGING to be taken offence to; and two, elitism may be efficient, but it is people that do stuff like I do, that cause those number crunchers to go back to the boards JUST IN CASE we are right, and a lot of those times, causes them to come up with new 'bests' for the elitists to do. Not saying every person with a messed up, weird, off the wall build or approach is that way... lord no... most are broken in the head... but, some of us actually take the time to THINK about what we are doing, and do rudimentary testing to see if it works... But, you, you just assume, have to be carried, not that I had a good build, or that I knew what I was doing, etc etc... has to be something that allows you to just continue doing as you have done.
  • spidey#3367
    spidey#3367 Member Posts: 400 Arc User


    As for @spidey#3367 wrote, as soon as you use language like "no offence" or "with all due respect", etc, you ARE meaning offence and disrespect, you just want to cloak it as not being that way, it's a really old and cliched way to CYA.

    Ok So tell me what i have to say that you believe it was no offense? Sry, but this souns very odd....
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User


    5. I'd rather spend an extra 15 minutes clearing a dungeon than an extra 20+ looking for that last special high level whatever the hamster the leader is looking for. Ridiculous waste of time 9/10.

    Something that most don't get.
    However there is one exception. (for me personally) For dungeons that may require me using scrolls because of hamsters not applying themselves. Currently only CR fits this category.

    codg too
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    .


    As for @spidey#3367 wrote, as soon as you use language like "no offence" or "with all due respect", etc, you ARE meaning offence and disrespect, you just want to cloak it as not being that way, it's a really old and cliched way to CYA.

    Ok So tell me what i have to say that you believe it was no offense? Sry, but this souns very odd....
    When was the last time someone said to you , "No offense, but..." and then proceeded to say something that didn't make you want to smack them?

    Offense is something that is taken, not given. No matter what you have to say, someone will find a way to take offense. Just say what you mean, and it will be alright in the end. After all it's just words on a screen. About a game. But, Before you tell someone that they are wrong about something that happened to them... stop to think, "Just because I don't agree with them, does that mean I am right?" Remember, every day there is someone being wrong on the internet... and sometimes it's you.
  • rockkk52
    rockkk52 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    The purpose of my post was far from trying to troll. I just didn't and still don't understand the amount of reading between the lines during discussions like this where emotions are involved. Since the very attributes that allow ppl to be labelled as elitist or not are seemingly intrinsic to how they experience and approach the game. I was musing during a maintenance and was curious how others viewed this issue. That is the only aim of my post and I am thankful to all who have responded. I am of the opinion that bending the stick too far back to overcompensate for a lacking is just as erroneous as the lacking in the first place. In this case so called anti-elitism as a reaction to so called elitism. There are some facts that cant be ignored. The higher the ilvl the higher the potential for success. The lower the ilvl the less potential for success. Can a very skilled player perform better on a lower ilvl than a lesser skilled player? Yes. Can a lower ilvl outperform a similarly skilled player of a higher ilvl? No. Happy hunting to all and many phat lootz.
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    .


    As for @spidey#3367 wrote, as soon as you use language like "no offence" or "with all due respect", etc, you ARE meaning offence and disrespect, you just want to cloak it as not being that way, it's a really old and cliched way to CYA.

    Ok So tell me what i have to say that you believe it was no offense? Sry, but this souns very odd....
    When was the last time someone said to you , "No offense, but..." and then proceeded to say something that didn't make you want to smack them?

    Offense is something that is taken, not given. No matter what you have to say, someone will find a way to take offense. Just say what you mean, and it will be alright in the end. After all it's just words on a screen. About a game. But, Before you tell someone that they are wrong about something that happened to them... stop to think, "Just because I don't agree with them, does that mean I am right?" Remember, every day there is someone being wrong on the internet... and sometimes it's you.
    a more clear way of saying it is "I mean no offense." thus clarifying that the position is your intention rather than an imperative that the other person must adhere to. lol
  • chidion
    chidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Maybe elitists should be called realists.. they know what it takes to make a smooth run, and no amount of whining from lesser geared characters will make smooth runs with insufficient IL...

    One can call elitist anything they want, but as Abraham Lincoln said: “Calling a calf’s tail a leg, doesn’t make it a leg.”

    At one time or another just about every player was "carried" buy a stronger, more skilled player as they leveled up. Face it, if we weren't half of us probably wouldn't be where we are today... but how quickly some appear to choose to forget or ignore that fact when they talk about the tribulations of them having to "carry" slower, less experienced or lower geared players.

    Just my 2¢

    Everyone I think would prefer a faster easier run, but not everyone resents those who aren't skilled or equipped sufficiently to make those kinds of runs possible and even feel a bit of an obligation to help improve lesser skilled, equipped or slower players so every player is in a better position to make random queue runs faster and easier... some don't, choosing instead to offer the opinion that those slower, lower geared or less experienced players should be excluded or ridiculed because of their status.

    Again just my 2¢
  • eodharbinger#4185
    eodharbinger#4185 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    There is a difference between no exp & build issues to full on <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> carry. There are tons of idiots & wasting our time, money, AD on them simply to no listen, is not worth it either. At the end of the day though it's about culture, each guild should have it's own perspective on collaboration. This socialist <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of everyones the same while being unable to figure out basic math, logic, etc is not reality. Dumb people exist.

    > @frozenfirevr said:
    > How is anybody going to get better if you don't give them the chance? Advice can only get you so far. Experience is important.
    >
    > It is impossible to learn without actually doing it. If somebody is actually refusing to learn, I don't think anybody would have a problem with you asking them to leave, but not giving the chance? Such guilds/alliances seek to teach or allow people to learn, not carry them.

    > @frozenfirevr said:
    > How is anybody going to get better if you don't give them the chance? Advice can only get you so far. Experience is important.
    >
    > It is impossible to learn without actually doing it. If somebody is actually refusing to learn, I don't think anybody would have a problem with you asking them to leave, but not giving the chance? Such guilds/alliances seek to teach or allow people to learn, not carry them.
  • chidion
    chidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User

    There is a difference between no exp & build issues to full on HAMSTER carry. There are tons of idiots & wasting our time, money, AD on them simply to no listen, is not worth it either. At the end of the day though it's about culture, each guild should have it's own perspective on collaboration. This socialist HAMSTER of everyones the same while being unable to figure out basic math, logic, etc is not reality. Dumb people exist.



    I can't argue with your statement "dumb people exist", but by my definition it is pretty much the hallmark of an elitist to think other players should gear themselves and conduct themselves and play a game in a manner they dictate... or be labeled an "idiot" and a "waste of time"...

    You don't appear to have a problem labeling those who aren't up to your standards as "idiots" and a "waste of time" - but I'm guessing your opinion would be a bit different if another player insisted you gear your character or play in a manner of their choosing.

    This has nothing to do with "Socialism" :s and I don't recall seen anyone but you make the claim "everyone's the same"...

    Although I have no idea what your cultural norms are, my culture strongly believes every player, every person, deserves the same consideration and the same opportunity to conduct themselves in a manner of their own choosing, instead of being dictated to by someone else as to how to equip their character and how to play a game...

    Anyone can offer advice and suggestions as to how to improve another player's character, but to believe or even suggest anyone who doesn't take that advice is either an "idiot" or "waste of time"... I believe that speaks for itself.
  • jase2cool
    jase2cool Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 165 Arc User

    Many people confuse being elite with being elitist.

    An elite person doesn't need to brag about himself, nor belittle others to convey a message.

    Often, those are the first things an elitist will do.

    An elite views helping others as an opportunity to bring them up to the mountaintop.

    An elitist views anyone not already there as a hindrance, and tells them to "get good" before kicking them back down the slope.



    Elitism is toxic. It's not open to debate.

    Good day sir.

    I guess if a person without i level to prove himself and brag bout how good himself and claim to be good called noobist/noobism? (its elitist without numbers to prove it , most of time it be someone delusional who has a wrong build/unable to contribute to party yet thinks they are GOOD and deserved to run every content of the game)

    symptom: most of time these players will show-off bout their mediocre gears by tagging it on chat or talk bout their capability that does not makes sense or making up stories to attract attention

    THAT is why noobism sucks, and is like a disease.
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User
    .
    jase2cool said:

    Many people confuse being elite with being elitist.

    An elite person doesn't need to brag about himself, nor belittle others to convey a message.

    Often, those are the first things an elitist will do.

    An elite views helping others as an opportunity to bring them up to the mountaintop.

    An elitist views anyone not already there as a hindrance, and tells them to "get good" before kicking them back down the slope.



    Elitism is toxic. It's not open to debate.

    Good day sir.

    I guess if a person without i level to prove himself and brag bout how good himself and claim to be good called noobist/noobism? (its elitist without numbers to prove it , most of time it be someone delusional who has a wrong build/unable to contribute to party yet thinks they are GOOD and deserved to run every content of the game)

    symptom: most of time these players will show-off bout their mediocre gears by tagging it on chat or talk bout their capability that does not makes sense or making up stories to attract attention

    THAT is why noobism sucks, and is like a disease.
    The difference is, all of us were infected with noobism at one point. It takes a real HAMSTER to catch elitism.