anti elitism more problematic than elitism?

rockkk52
rockkk52 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
I know everyone who has played Neverwinter has at one time or another ran into a so called elitist. The actual definition of elitist differs from person to person but i think there is a general enough understanding of the term to agree that an elitist is someone to be avoided and can lessen the fun of a run and also might, in large groups, have a negative impact on the game. All this i can agree with, but something i don't hear talked about is the impact of the anti-elitist guilds and alliances on the game. I have only played Neverwinter for a little over a year but in that time i have been in multiple "anti-elitist" alliances. Some of the rules were if someone +ed in alliance chat no matter their gear or experience in the dungeon you had to take them. You also were not allowed to tell under geared or inexperienced ppl that they would not be able to complete the dungeon or if they did clear they wouldn't be much help. I wonder if these guilds and alliances are an important reason why RAQ, REQ, and even just fbi or msp runs are so painful. I mean its not really mean to state facts is it? If a character will not be of use in a dungeon wouldn't the fastest way to actually help them be to tell them that fact and then offer advice on how to improve or offer to teach the mechanics? It seems in such a system there would be little to no player development. All that would happen is it would accustom much of the new player base to being carried. Which would in turn fuel the elitists and perhaps push other geared and exped players into the elitist adjacent camps. Perhaps its not that content is too hard or that elitists are too mean. Perhaps its the opposite.
I am one who enjoys helping others learn dungeon mechanics particularly fbi and msp since they are fairly easy and fun if you follow the mechanics. But i cant help but ask the question would i have progressed and learned as much as quickly as i did if i had started in such a guild/alliance? Or would i still think my waters of elezahhd on my warlock was a good fit. Would i even have learned to tank at a high lvl? I don't think so although its impossible to tell entirely. All this is a bit of late night musing. But perhaps it food for thought.
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Comments

  • wizardlvl80#5963
    wizardlvl80#5963 Member Posts: 519 Arc User
    No, it's not problematic.
  • wizardlvl80#5963
    wizardlvl80#5963 Member Posts: 519 Arc User
    Oh, and one more thing. How many active users this forum has? 50? 70? And I'm talking about really active ones that are bothering to discuss anything here.

    If you want to know the answer for your question, how about a poll in a whole community? In game poll for everyone across all platforms. Let's see the results. And I ensure you - you won't like them.
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    You DO need gear of a certain IL to be useful in some dungeons. I don't think anyone really will challenge that? Also that IL level is in some cases significantly higher than the level required to enter the dungeon.

    The fundamental problem is that people do not want to realize they are not geared enough.

    I mean, there is nothing personal or skill-based in that. It is just that your character has not yet reached the point in the development curve where it can be useful in dungeon X.

    Going into dungeons with too low ILs just leads to a bad game experience for everyone.

    I think it is better to communicate clearly to people what IL you need to perform your role somewhat well, then they know what they need to do to grow into a dungeon.

    There IS a big problem in RQs with people far below the necessary IL queuing up, in particular for RAQ. Either nobody told them they will be unable to contribute, or they are just hoping to be carried and leeching.
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited September 2018


    "extremist" elistism (you know, the players that only play with good ones) is a very small % of people.
    The bigger % of secluded players are guilds. I understand the mentality of 'guild comes first' but in a game like this a bit stupid, hence guild servers no major role in this game. There are no guild vs guild competitions or pve+pvp rankings etc etc etc.


    We also can't blame for synergizing with other people differently. Example: my style is very aggressive, I don't enjoy waiting 1hr for people to follow me because they are sleeping, emptying bags during dungeons or pming whilst needing to move. If you can do all of those things without slacking behind I don't care.

    Wouldn't the second part explain the first? Guilds are a 'comfort zone', people that you know and know you will more likely to 'synergize' better with you. Most guilds I know are not about in-game skill or capability, but usually some other criteria, language, age, common interests, common mentality, mutual help etc, and people who know you are more likely to adapt, or compromise for mutual benefit, in your example run style.


    Most people think they are elistists but they aren't. Many claim to be anti elitism... but end up prioritizing friends and guildies over randoms. I think many don't understand the definition of elite and the word gets thrown around too much.
    If elitism was a thing.... where are these two guilds:
    Elites
    Anti-Elites
    ?

    What you consider elitist? IMO, it is to do with capability in-game, but If you consider prioritizing guilds and friends it will only apply if the guild/friends list is made by this criteria, and like you pointed out, at least per guilds, it's very low percentage.
    To my knowledge, while a bit more common on consoles, there is only one such on PC, and it's recent, about a month old, and perhaps a couple older but not as hard defined.

    I think many fancy themselves anti-elites, but at the same time make their groups in 15k+ 16k+ etc channels, and adhere to 'meta' without understanding or using the flexibility it gives, as in like you pointed out, allows to be inclusive.
  • jeremytheman232
    jeremytheman232 Member Posts: 231 Arc User
    I was a 13k psop and could not get runs to save my life. Finally a group said they would carry me. Boy were they shocked to see me dominate t9 like i was 18k. The problem is people want only top il teammates when sadly alot of people pay to win and have 0 understanding of their class. Im now 15.6k and i wont refuse someone to join a run but if they show they cannot complete the run i will kick or start the vote to kick. Ive kicked 16k and 17k players because il means nothing. My first CRL we had 2 dcs and the one was running everything the other wouldnt even drop hollowed ground..... before going off of someones il check out their skill then decide if they deserve more runs. I made several friends who said hey i want u to run with us more even though the guild has 17 and 18k pallys. Its a team game and i get wanting to run dungeons as fast as possible but come on i was in a group farming t9 speed runs and got soo bored. Ran a 2.5hr fbi (veryyy slow) but had a blast meeting new people and teaching them mechanics etc.
  • aixis2000
    aixis2000 Member Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    simply no!
    In german there is a sarcastic joke: Wenn jeder an sich denkt dann ist an alle gedacht. In an other thread the OP wanted to harden all dungeons...face the truth ur an elist but u have alot of possiblitities to separate urself from "pugs"/causuals.
    Promoting elitism/greed is a good trigger to fill the pockets of a game making company...
    Post edited by aixis2000 on
  • feanor70118
    feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,158 Arc User
    I think Cryptic contributes to this problem by simply setting the gear levels too low on the advanced and expert queues. This gives lowbies the idea that because they can get in, they belong there and can finish the content. They can't.

    I'm still a member of one of those anti-elitist channels and my experience trying to run with them was horrible. Failing and wasting hours of one's time isn't helping them learn when their learning doesn't help them finish.

    I'm happy to teach inexperienced players the mechanics I know, but when, as occurred today, I get a tank in the RAQ who holds less aggro than my Chultan Tiger companion and takes only 1/4 as much damage as I do, the problem is both with the game allowing that player in and with that player thinking he has any business in that content.

    Also, I think every dungeon design after new CN is terrible (and new CN is boring), but that's another discussion.

    The RAQ and REQ gear levels need to be increased, the dungeons need to be cleansed of the repetitive control/immunity/instadeath mechanics and really the whole queue reward system needs to be redone. It makes no sense AT ALL for random queues where the players have no control over what content they end up in to reward more AD than specific content.

    This system and the bad dungeon design have destroyed what used to be a fun and rewarding catalog of epic content.
  • minotaur2857
    minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,140 Arc User

    I think Cryptic contributes to this problem by simply setting the gear levels too low on the advanced and expert queues. This gives lowbies the idea that because they can get in, they belong there and can finish the content. They can't.

    I'm still a member of one of those anti-elitist channels and my experience trying to run with them was horrible. Failing and wasting hours of one's time isn't helping them learn when their learning doesn't help them finish.

    I'm happy to teach inexperienced players the mechanics I know, but when, as occurred today, I get a tank in the RAQ who holds less aggro than my Chultan Tiger companion and takes only 1/4 as much damage as I do, the problem is both with the game allowing that player in and with that player thinking he has any business in that content.

    Also, I think every dungeon design after new CN is terrible (and new CN is boring), but that's another discussion.

    The RAQ and REQ gear levels need to be increased, the dungeons need to be cleansed of the repetitive control/immunity/instadeath mechanics and really the whole queue reward system needs to be redone. It makes no sense AT ALL for random queues where the players have no control over what content they end up in to reward more AD than specific content.

    This system and the bad dungeon design have destroyed what used to be a fun and rewarding catalog of epic content.

    I second most of this, but it meshes with the other problem, particularly if a GF, the guy may not have been a tank but was forced to queue as one.

    I've given up on the random queues as they contain too many dungeons that are just insanely buggy for me, my guild lead has done the same for similar reasons but with added lag.

    Just let us do the dungeons we can do for the same rewards rather than trying to get us to do stuff we can't, meaning we don't do any dungeons.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    rockkk52 said:

    I know everyone who has played Neverwinter has at one time or another ran into a so called elitist. The actual definition of elitist differs from person to person but i think there is a general enough understanding of the term to agree that an elitist is someone to be avoided and can lessen the fun of a run and also might, in large groups, have a negative impact on the game. All this i can agree with, but something i don't hear talked about is the impact of the anti-elitist guilds and alliances on the game. I have only played Neverwinter for a little over a year but in that time i have been in multiple "anti-elitist" alliances. Some of the rules were if someone +ed in alliance chat no matter their gear or experience in the dungeon you had to take them. You also were not allowed to tell under geared or inexperienced ppl that they would not be able to complete the dungeon or if they did clear they wouldn't be much help. I wonder if these guilds and alliances are an important reason why RAQ, REQ, and even just fbi or msp runs are so painful. I mean its not really mean to state facts is it? If a character will not be of use in a dungeon wouldn't the fastest way to actually help them be to tell them that fact and then offer advice on how to improve or offer to teach the mechanics? It seems in such a system there would be little to no player development. All that would happen is it would accustom much of the new player base to being carried. Which would in turn fuel the elitists and perhaps push other geared and exped players into the elitist adjacent camps. Perhaps its not that content is too hard or that elitists are too mean. Perhaps its the opposite.
    I am one who enjoys helping others learn dungeon mechanics particularly fbi and msp since they are fairly easy and fun if you follow the mechanics. But i cant help but ask the question would i have progressed and learned as much as quickly as i did if i had started in such a guild/alliance? Or would i still think my waters of elezahhd on my warlock was a good fit. Would i even have learned to tank at a high lvl? I don't think so although its impossible to tell entirely. All this is a bit of late night musing. But perhaps it food for thought.

    End game players who are bored with the game or simply don't want to grind out for one thing or another should take some lower IL players through content.

    I have taken 12K IL players through CR. Taken 11K Players through T9. Taken some lower IL players through CoDG.

    I make sure they have a mic and join my chat as I explain mechanics and how the content works and how groups typically run the content. After the run we talk about how they can improve from artifacts, enchantments, companions, etc... after a few weeks I ask them to join to see if they had made improvements and some players really do and produce 25-50% more damage than they did previously and some go from a 11/12K to over 15K and are so much better.

    As for players being carried. Go into port and look at who are calling out for CoDG, go into Brovia and look at who are calling out for CR. There are some very low IL players calling out for those content. And my experience with those players have been this, we fail or I get kicked right before I can claim my award. Yeah, that is what some of these players are now doing, kicking support players from their runs right at the last boss right before we can claim our award. So be wary when joining groups. In fact, I'm done join randoms out in zones. I will join alliance runs or no runs at all and with how dead my alliance has been as of late, I guess I will be spending more time away from NWO than playing any content due to a lack of players wanting to run CR or other end game content.
  • vorphied
    vorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    Players often conflate "elitist" with "elite". One can be either of those things, subjectively, without necessarily being the other.

    Trying to avoid writing another book on the topic, so I'll keep it short:

    - Training runs and active learning with the community are great and should be encouraged and rewarded.

    - Avoiding discussing practical matters such as what sorts of powers, rotations, and equipment one should use to be minimally effective to complete the content at hand is ridiculous.

    - My alliance actively avoids using potentially discriminatory language (e.g. "lf 17k HDPS") as a rule, but it is acceptable to specify that you need someone experienced in a certain role in a specific dungeon for completion if necessary, mainly referring to core support in Cradle runs who know how not to fall off. If members want to make specific requests for an arbitrary item level, they can search public channels.

    - Excessive coddling of players who might actually want to learn and improve can be an issue. I also agree that Cryptic is setting minimum item levels for participation in "advanced" low enough that it causes frustration and disappointment in less experienced players who expected a challenge, but not to have their hamsters handed to them in the first 30 seconds.
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  • checkmatein3
    checkmatein3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 525 Arc User
    I am going to avoid the landmines that might deviate from the OP's thought, and just think about the idea of anti-elite guilds.

    First, as this is a game, no one can force anyone to do anything. Every decision that a player makes is 100% voluntary. Some players prefer guilds that require play with each other. Therefore, I have no qualms with any guild that sets rules that will require people, regardless of gear, preparedness or anything else, to run with other guild mates, because anyone in that guild is voluntarily accepting those rules. If a player does not want to accept those rules from that guild, they can leave and go to a guild that does not.

    Second, as to the point that anti-elite guilds are part of the problem, I do not think they are. In my opinion, guilds are the best means to make long term friends in the game. Random runs are the opposite of guilds, short stints with a purpose to finish the content. Whether a guild is founded upon exclusionary principles like TIL, monetary donations, grind, TS, whatever...OR language, nationality, time zone...OR play styles or roles (I think there was a TR guild only at one time...I dont remember) or in game races (I know there was a drow only guild)...that is completely up to the founders of the guild and those who choose to stay. Whether it is successful in the long term is debatable. But, I cannot state with statistical or philosophical certainty that guilds that force play together are the cause or source of the attitude of going into dungeons unprepared or ignorant. If I were to make a guess, which is my opinion, I would think it is Cryptic's desire to focus on new players' experience, giving them a sense of advancement at too quick and a non-linear pace, so that they can catch up to long term players without having to go through everything before...e.g., skipping campaigns, barovia hunt gear drop, seals of the brave for really good rings and weapon sets. The focus by Cryptic on new players for their retention leads to frustration when the true end game (the high end dungeons) that do require knowledge of mechanics and do require research are smacked against with a quickly obtained, but poorly understood, character. Content that is skipped DOES provide information and practice. Time in the game, whether solo or grouped, is necessary to understand how it works.

    So, either we accept Cryptic's business focus and provide feedback on how to mitigate the side-effects IN-GAME of that decision for all players, or we provide feedback to have Cryptic rethink its business model. I will not blame anyone for joining a random queue to try and get the quick AD, because that is how Cryptic has designed it. I think the design of random queue is at ODDS with the disjointed model to allow players to catch up quickly, and is the source/cause of the frustration for all players (long term 'elites' and new players).

    Cheers and thanks for reading!
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  • bodini72
    bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User
    I am in a guild/alliance that doesn't allow IL to be a listed requirement for runs . I agree that in a guild/alliance we should be willing to help each other more so than expecting it from a random pug group. That being said I also agree that some people take things to either extreme, like requiring 15k IL to run CN in an alliance chat. That is just insanity and I believe has no place in guild/alliance. The other extreme is expecting to be carried completely simply because you know the alliance doesn't allow IL as a requirement.

    Since the release of barovia and the changes to the queue system I see more of the latter than the former. People in barovia with a 7k IL wanting to be carried through the zone. Knowing full well that many of them are not new players but players that couldn't be bothered to run those toons before the free gear was given. Those players are also now jumping into more dungeons. There may be some legit new players not fully understanding that they have no business in those places but in my experience it is a vast majority of troll players.

    I used to run dungeons all day and would help anyone that needed it. I had more of an issue with elitists demanding I go 150% speed all the way through so "THEY" can get "THEIR" AD and move onto the next toon. Since the release of barovia it has done a flip flop. At least before the new/undergeared player wanted to learn more often than not. I have since almost completely stopped running dungeons and almost never do the random queue. The drama is completely ruining the game for me and I see many other ppl with similar complaints.

    It is a shame that on either side of that spectrum there is enough of an issue game wide that it pulls players from what should be a relaxing good time.
  • moltenperezoso
    moltenperezoso Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    Just avoid Elitist players and Guilds. There are plenty to go around. Being here is all about fun and find yourself a solid, down to earth group of people. Not elitists that are on a crusade to make people miserable. There are some really good end game guilds without the elitist nonsense. Good luck in your search.
  • lonewolf#0719
    lonewolf#0719 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Its an interesting discussion. I was part of a large guild and alliance which did not allow IL when asking for groups and no-one was "supposed" to be refused a dungeon run.

    The reality is that a small group of people in the guild sat in Discord and ran the end game content themselves - occasionally throwing a bone to other players to "keep them happy". There was all sorts of anti-elitism talk but the reality is those at the top hid it by just not running content with most of the other players.

    So doesn't matter if you are invited into an anti-elitist guild, its still there just restricted to those on top.
  • chidion
    chidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I'd always thought the purpose of a guild is for guild members to help each other out, regardless of the individual player's character or item level scores...

    There are of course many players who while running content for themselves are also willing to help others - but then there are players who's primary, or some may think singular reason for running content is to help themselves even sometimes to the detriment of other party members.

    That latter category are the textbook "elitist" in my opinion and I think they are easy to spot as in random content their characters are usually the ones who run off from other party members, sometimes rushing past mobs and are often the ones standing outside the last boss gate admonishing other players to "hurry up", as those other players are fighting through the mobs left behind.

    I'm not really sure what an anti-elitist is other than those who object to the attitude and displays of elitism... nor do I see how being an anti-elitist is a problem... except to the elitist of course. :p

  • shadoewrayth
    shadoewrayth Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    I think the biggest problem here is the personal nature: WHO determines that another player just won’t be able to cut it, since they aren’t ‘leet’ enough? There is a minimum IL, yeah, but, if they are over that, and you still refuse them? Why? Because your personal opinion is such. That makes you an elitist, and by their very nature, someone ANTI-elitist is going to come off at least somewhat offensive, because they actively fight your mentality. And, I can personally testify to the fact that IL sometimes means absolutely zero. On Xbox, I tanked Orcus at less than 10K IL on a paladin. We had a good cleric, but she even said she barely had to heal me. I asked the normal tank what abilities they ran for Orcus, and saw they used more offensive, less tanky, stuff. So, yeah, while that player was accepted to go higher level things, and seen as a better tank, I quickly became the preferred tank for stuff I could even edge in just over the IL. They even took me to FBI when I could barely qualify, just because I was better at my job.

    So, stop thinking you know everything, give people a chance, you never know if you’ll find someone really good at their job, until you do. And, by telling them no, you also might have caused someone really good to give up just a bit more (they might have been refused a bunch already, just need one person to say yes).
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    The real effect of having rules forbidding asking for hdps or IL levels in alliance or guild chat is this:
    The group formations tends to avoid the guild and alliance channels and rather go through the public channels or as tells to friends.

    Since everyone(but the low IL people...) know what IL levels they need for smooth runs, most runs are simply not advertised through the alliance or guild channel if that can force you to pick up sub-IL players.

    So the actual effect of not being allowed to ask for IL levels etc in alliance or guild chat is less activity at the alliance and guild level, and thereby less building of team feeling and teamwork. It really works quite opposite of what the intent of such a rule is, and the low IL people do not get more opportunities to run stuff anyways.
  • vordayn
    vordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    This is what happens when a game 'matures' to a certain extent. There will be a divide between characters, likely related to the duration of time played that invariably corresponds to experience and the 'capability' (with an imprecise metric denoted by 'item level') of a character.

    There are 15 modules worth of content to bridge a player that just begins their path of progression after turning level 70, and those players that have kept ahead of the curve (e.g. those that test the new modules on preview); of course there is a spectrum of everyone in between.

    The tools given to us to enjoy content are egalitarian so to speak (as long as one meets the requisite 'item level') which is by no means a strong predictor of experience or skill; everyone is thrown into the mixing pot of Random Queued Dungeons - a feature I believe was put in place to encourage the play of all dungeons/skirmishes, while reducing the time to wait for a dungeon to pop (there must be some sort of performance indicators by which Cryptic adheres to).

    If one is uncomfortable with the mixing of characters across a wide gamut of experience via RQ, then there is nothing stopping people from forming their own groups. This can be achieved by channels, guilds, alliances, friend lists. These groups have differing views of elitism and anti-elitism. However, I believe grouping people as solely either anti-elitist or elitist is flawed. People will invariably be motivated by different things and at different times. There will be times when you cannot devote an extra hour or two 'helping' people through content, and there is nothing wrong with that; there will be times when you can. Furthermore, because you have achieved a certain item level (with hopefully corresponding experience and skill) there is nothing stopping you from joining, or indeed requesting, similar individuals who have invested time and thought into their character and how they contribute to an effective party.

    The problem is the division of people into one camp or another. We are all on different paths on whatever journey we envisage for our characters in this MMO. Help out where you can, but also do what makes you enjoy this game, even if this means not pandering to other people's labels of what they perceive you to be.
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  • c3rb3r3
    c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    there wouldn't be an elitism/anti-elitism problem if there wasn't such a big content hole between mid range and end game people.
  • smulch
    smulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User

    The real effect of having rules forbidding asking for hdps or IL levels in alliance or guild chat is this:
    The group formations tends to avoid the guild and alliance channels and rather go through the public channels or as tells to friends.

    Since everyone(but the low IL people...) know what IL levels they need for smooth runs, most runs are simply not advertised through the alliance or guild channel if that can force you to pick up sub-IL players.

    So the actual effect of not being allowed to ask for IL levels etc in alliance or guild chat is less activity at the alliance and guild level, and thereby less building of team feeling and teamwork. It really works quite opposite of what the intent of such a rule is, and the low IL people do not get more opportunities to run stuff anyways.

    I essentially said the EXACT same thing in my alliance and holy HAMSTER people weren't happy with it.

  • lonewolf#0719
    lonewolf#0719 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    This is also exactly what was happening in my Guild - despite the guild leader denying this was the case.
  • spidey#3367
    spidey#3367 Member Posts: 400 Arc User

    just because I was better at my job..

    Nop. You where carried. I dont mean that as an offense. Its just a fact. Theese so called "elitist" often just fill up spaces for dungeons with theese so called "non elitists".
    I do this a lot, when i search for Tong or MSP. Even in CR i often carry someone with my group. Why not?