anti elitism more problematic than elitism?

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Comments

  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    chidion said:


    My point here was if the game developers set the minimum level for any character to enter content at 8K, then any player 8K and above should be allowed to run that content.

    They are certainly allowed to run that content as long as they pass the minimum IL limit. But the majority of other people running the content are also allowed to choose to not run it with them, so good luck.

    The problem is that Cryptic has a long tradition of setting the entrance level to content way below what you need to meaningfully contribute. As a general rule, add 2k to Cryptic's limit to be at the 'right' starter level for a dungeon.
    (Yes, this certainly is a bit class dependent.. OP tanks and some support classes are effective at lower ILs. And it is also not a problem for RIQ and RLQ.. parties are usually overpowered for those anyways)

  • chidion
    chidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User

    Clearly expressing a dissenting opinion is no more or less snobbish then being honest about who you choose to play with.
    For example:
    I have no problem with those you call "elitists" who LFG "17k+, exp only, must have [iBiS gear]".
    I don't rage, call them elitist or flame post them. They were honest about their expectations Also, they did me a favor. I don't want to play with anyone so restrictive, even on my 17k toon with BiS gear.
    The flipside of that, if someone with <15k asks to join my party I might ask them to fill a specific role (eg. GF Tank running KV).
    If they insist on full DPS Conqueror, I politely say it's not a good fit.
    Perhaps from their perspective that makes me elitist.
    See?
    It's all relative, mon amie.
    😎

    I don't believe anyone objects to running with competent well equipped players and I don't believe those kinds of players are what most people consider "elitist".

    Of course that being said, a competent well equipped player who doesn't think any player who isn't as experienced or equally well equipped should be allowed to run with them - those objecting to having to share content with players 'not as good as they are' is what I believe most people classify as elitist behavior mon ami.

    I believe everyone would prefer a "smooth", "good fit" when it comes to the other people in their party, but rolling random players get what they get, again I think it is a very simple case of reality -vs- what someone wants and that player's willingness to abide with a situation that doesn't meet their personal expectations for the few minutes it takes to run a random queue.

    Anyone who uses the Looking for Group method to build their party are fully within their rights to call for and expect specific stats for the players they want to run with... they may be by definition elitist but they are handling their elitism in an acceptable manner and I don't believe anyone has complained about those kinds of players.

    However anyone who queues for random, then complains or worse yet, attempts to berate or exclude players, they don't think are "good enough" to be in the same random content, they take their elitism to a whole different, and as far as I'm concerned unacceptable level.

    Everyone should have the same opportunity and consideration when it comes to random content... any player who thinks they are to good to run with a random PUG group should build their queue group to their specifications then queue for content.

    If a player just queues for an open random run, ya' roll the dice and take what you get.

    My 2¢
  • asterotg
    asterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    kvet said:

    Yes, people certainly need to take responsibility for themselves. I was in the same boat when I came back from a couple years out of game, and did much that same thing as your OP friend. But my guild and alliance are a bunch of kickarse rockstars that tend to fall all over themselves to help each other. Sometimes they're so helpful I think they should just get a room....... :) Not everyone has that luxury.

    So, again, as @chidion and others (including myself) has stated: If you go into any RQ without a hand-picked team, then you have to know at this point that there's a solid chance that you'll get a team that is something other than BiS and may even have players that have never run the dungeon before, have not support in game to learn (friends/guild/alliance), and have never read/watched a guide. You *have* to know that. If you don't, if you somehow have missed this small aspect, then I really have to question you're much touted "experience."

    If you pug an RQ, you simply have no right to complain. It's entirely inappropriate to belittle someone in an RQ where you should have gone in knowing wouldn't have a perfect so-called "meta" group, or even a group above the minimum IL. As someone with "experience" and "good gear," you should already know full well how the game works. That means it's your own fault for putting yourself into an entirely avoidable upsetting situation in the first place. It's like kicking a hornets nest then complaining about how all the stupid newb hornets came out and stung you.... Just don't do that.

    "Experienced" players should already have a network of other such players in some way. If you don't - again, I'd question your so-called "experience." Go leverage that group and do "smooth" runs all day long and stop making people you think are beneath you feel bad for not having the same level of "experience" (and/or cash, and/or time) invested as you do.

    Who did belittle anyone?

    As I said, I know what I do, when I 'mix it up' with some RQ runs. Furthermore, I stated, that I give ppl the benefit of doubt, when joining a group. That said, there are groups destined to fail and it is the right of every player, to leave these groups. There might be some BiS players belittling new players or players with worse gear. I dont do that. I either leave without a comment or I ask other players to change their skills for a better chance (after a few failed tries) and leave after some time, if their is no chance, to finish the dungeon. Again without slandering them, just stating the fact, that imo this group cant finish the dungeon and wishing them good luck.

    Are we so PC, that leaving a group or stating facts (in a reasonable and constructive way) is an insult?
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • chivonica
    chivonica Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    I will try and put this nicely.

    No one is Obligated to carry anyone and no one is Entitled to be carried in RQ. This is not a guild/friend pre-made run(s). If you are telling exp. / geared players to go form pre-mades instead of RQ'in you are part of the problem imo.

    Yes random people have the right to be treated with respect and decency unless they show none themselves imo. Even then some will still do so but don't expect it to be the majority.

    Being new or unprepared is not always the players fault and the lowering of the min iL reqs by devs have only encouraged this. People do understand this and is an obvious result.

    Have some decency and don't expect to be carried or at least attempt/be willing to adapt when the situation calls for it. Not doing so is disrespectful. You are no more or less important then the other 4+ Random people and their experience in that group.

    Don't label them elitist for kicking or abandoning you / the run because there is no hope in completing that content with that group or even specifically you if you don't contribute meaningfully and or refuse to adapt in order to get that content complete.

    Don't label them elitist because they told you straight up truths that you can not / will not accept. Yes some can be a bit more polite in the way that info. is put across but at the end of the day it will still be true. You can either face it and try to change it or ignore it but don't expect much to change if you choose the latter.
  • kvet
    kvet Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,700 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    asterotg said:


    Who did belittle anyone?
    .... snip ...

    I was using the pronoun You in the impersonal sense, as opposed to using it in the second person in reference to you personally. I'll avoid that usage to avoid confusion :)
    chivonica said:

    I will try and put this nicely.

    No one is Obligated to carry anyone and no one is Entitled to be carried in RQ. This is not a guild/friend pre-made run(s). If you are telling exp. / geared players to go form pre-mades instead of RQ'in you are part of the problem imo.

    Yes random people have the right to be treated with respect and decency unless they show none themselves imo. Even then some will still do so but don't expect it to be the majority.

    Being new or unprepared is not always the players fault and the lowering of the min iL reqs by devs have only encouraged this. People do understand this and is an obvious result.

    Have some decency and don't expect to be carried or at least attempt/be willing to adapt when the situation calls for it. Not doing so is disrespectful. You are no more or less important then the other 4+ Random people and their experience in that group.

    So, what you're saying is..... When walking into a HAMSTER store, it's OK to be surprised and angry at all the naked pictures and it's the stores fault for putting those there, as opposed to your fault for going in there in the first place.

    Yes, everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions, but the so-called "experienced" people necessarily should be held to a higher standard because they're the ones that supposedly understand how the game works. You can try and blame lower-end players, but that's the same as blaming a baby for pooping it's pants -it doesn't know any better yet. *You* (general sense!) as an experienced, higher-level player, DO know better. You know not to HAMSTER your pants (hopefully...) and you should also know that solo queuing an RQ will mean low-level players in the instance. Deal with it: Either play it out, or don't RQ without a premade - you chose to queue solo.

    An elite player will give it a good try, maybe try to help the newbies out a bit. They'll take the advice or not... whatever. The instance will ultimately succeed or fail... again, whatever - a true elite has learned from long hours of game play that some runs don't work out. If it doesn't work after a few wipes, no one can blame you for calling it quits at that point - just don't be a jerk about it.

    An elitist player will complain at his/her team, will call the newbies out for being terrible, will attempt to kick low level players for reasons other than afk or whatever (typically because they're just "not good"), or they'll otherwise act like a-holes and screw up the run with their bad behavior and make these lower-end players feel like they did something wrong by just playing the game the way Cryptic designed it. Frequently, if they don't spam Abandon Instance, they'll quit then complain about the penalty and about how terrible the random group of pugs (that, of course, they choose to run with) were, or they'll try and goad someone else into quitting so they don't have to. All around, they'll make the gameplay experience completely awful for everyone around them if it's not going the way they want it to.

    Everyone should ask themselves: Which one of these are you?
  • chivonica
    chivonica Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    kvet said:

    So, what you're saying is.....

    No. What I wrote is what I wrote its as simple as that.
    kvet said:

    Yes, everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions, but the so-called "experienced" people necessarily should be held to a higher standard because they're the ones that supposedly understand how the game works.

    There are no buts here, everyone needs to take responsibility like you said just stop there. Higher standard? RQ? Equal footing. Equality is a pretty straight forward concept. If important, helpful knowledge is available it can be put forward to the team if people choose to. It can be taken into consideration and used or not.
    kvet said:

    You can try and blame lower-end players, but that's the same as...….

    Lower end players basically = babies? Ok if you say so.... give them some credit
    kvet said:

    *You* (general sense!) as an experienced, higher-level player, DO know better. You know not to …… and you should also know that solo queuing an RQ will mean low-level players in the instance. Deal with it: Either play it out, or don't RQ without a premade - you chose to queue solo.

    So exp. players know better but have to keep playing it out or not RQ without a premade? The circle of madness and denial should continue for eons only to fail in the end anyway? All because 1 person or more refused to try better themselves for the benefit of the team? Yeh seems legit lmao.

    No one forfeits anything when RQ'in yes that includes solo Q'in. Equal footing. Common theme. Being a low lvl player does not entitle anyone to anything in RQ same as high lvl player. People solo queue but its a team effort and as well as individual decisions, team decisions get made. People can and do deal with it. Telling people they have no right to complain doesn't change the fact that they actually do.

    If their lvl of complaint goes outside the boundaries of decency or ToS there are plenty of actions the offended player(s) can take in order to deal with it.

    An elite or elitist player? Just players and labels. Don't like what they're saying? Mute them, leave, vote, report them, prove them wrong so many things, just don't sit there and whine about it. Don't like what they're doing? … I think people can figure that out by now their not babies after all.
  • romromero
    romromero Member Posts: 31 Arc User

    I think Cryptic contributes to this problem by simply setting the gear levels too low on the advanced and expert queues. This gives lowbies the idea that because they can get in, they belong there and can finish the content. They can't.

    Yes. You know why? So Cryptic can continue to sell scrolls of life and mass scrolls of life.
  • rockkk52
    rockkk52 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    I tend to side with chivonica. Responsibility is shared. New players should at least you tube a dungeon before hand if not learn about the mechanics. If they don't then whatever their gear score they will be useless. It's about consideration for everyone not just new players. So the higher my ilvl and the better i get the less respect and consideration i am owed from when i first started? Weird.
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    meirami said:

    I think part of the reason why random queues are so bad isn't that inexperienced players aren't (allowed to be) given advice, but because they seem to rarely understand it. There are many old and some newer guides floating around the web that don't offer the best advice for the current situation, and it feels like new players don't know which mod we're currently at or even understand what to look for in a build. The game's complex, y'all.

    An example:
    Just yesterday I saw a 16.2k GWF with r13s and an Ioun Stone that had two Empowered Runestones for 1700 power each and one Bonding. He also had two +5 Gravestrikers on his character, maybe not realizing that the 1000 power he was getting from them doesn't stack with itself and that just having a paladin or a cleric in the party gives him more than both of those rings combined. He also didn't meet the armor penetration requirement for Tomb of the Nine Gods, which put him barely above the tank in dps and below the other 3.



    I'm really curious why so many dps characters run augments now, even when they are seemingly well-geared otherwise and with high level enchants? It's not that this person could have been just an old returning player that logged in for the first time and queued for REQ, because he had farmed his way to Omu to get those rings.

    as far as rings there are reasons to have two grave strikers even if the bonus doesn't match. you might have gotten really lucky with them and not have another double attack ring available. the two slots and good stats are good for something yah know
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    There is another problem with that build: He is Iron Vanguard. For dps he needs to be Swordmaster. And he got Vistani weapons at orange...

    I have also on several occasions seen high-IL dps characters that deliver only 25% of what they should deliver. In my cases this was in CR.. and in CR you cannot continue with a defunct main dps. So only thing to do is to explain the situation as kindly as possible and tell him where to find help, and then find a new dps or abandon.

    Yes, game is very complex and things need to be done just right. It probably is very hard to build a good character without some interaction with boards or other people. Running into the occasional badly specced character is fine as long as he/she will listen to advice and accept it when they are told they are underperforming, even if it might hurt. We can offer help then. The problem is when those people get insulted and will not listen or accept what they are told.
  • tchefi#6735
    tchefi#6735 Member Posts: 359 Arc User
    rockkk52 said:

    I tend to side with chivonica. Responsibility is shared. New players should at least you tube a dungeon before hand if not learn about the mechanics.

    I'm not completely agree with that.

    In my opinion, for a first try on a dungeon it makes more sense to go with friends/guildmates (blunders tend to be more forgiven by people you know a bit), but that should not be mandotary.

    I'm one of those players who really enjoy discovering mechanics by himself, without any sort of explaination (and always ask to "new players" if they want the mechanics to be explained or try to figure out by themselves).
    I hated on my first times CN and MSP when, before any try, someone started to explain "THE" strategy (in that case I ignored chat or muted) or tell me how i should play my main (TR) during the fight.

    Figuring out how to exploit your class during a specific boss fight/dungeon, be aware of what happens, which animation/sound/thing triggers which event/spell/aoe, is part of learning how to play your character, and more importantly how to react to different situations/adapt to different party settings/be able to recover from a little or big blunder (be it your or the one of someone in your party). And sometimes be able to transform a failing group into a successful one.

    That's what endgamers do when a new dungeon shows up (and i'm now more or less one of them), they have to find their way to beat the bosses because no one did it before them.

    Why a new player shouldn't be free to hard try, as people did it X years ago on CN when CN was new, on FBI when FBI was new, on MSP when MSP was new, on TONG when TONG was new, etc, even if those dungeons are now well known by "old" players ?

    Follow a specific strategy shown on youtube or explained by mates as a "standard" BEFORE any try to understand by yourself is only leading to conformism, and tell people to do so unless what they would be useless is only encouraging this gregarious instinct by "social pressure".

    "Don't try to discover, understand and think by yourself, people already found solutions you can use". Sad
  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,454 Arc User
    Everyone wants experienced players in their parties.

    Nobody wants to be there when people are trying to get that experience.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User


    Why a new player shouldn't be free to hard try, as people did it X years ago on CN when CN was new, on FBI when FBI was new, on MSP when MSP was new, on TONG when TONG was new, etc, even if those dungeons are now well known by "old" players ?

    The problem is that players not understanding the script or their role easily can lead to wipes. If for instance a player do not know to kill the souls in Tong, wipes will follow.

    It is not ok to want to figure out things yourself when doing so leads to wasting other peoples time. If you want to figure out a zone yourself, either run it on Test when it is released, or find 4 other new people that also want to figure out the zone.

    I am ok with people being new. We were all new once, and new people need to be taught to be brought forward. But I _do_ expect them to tell the group if they did not do the zone before, and I _do_ expect them to listen to the instructions they will get.

    Intentionally wasting other peoples time is not ok.
  • chivonica
    chivonica Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    Everyone wants experienced players in their parties.

    Nobody wants to be there when people are trying to get that experience.

    Maybe they dont want to be there but some do stick it through.

    Personally I have waited 5 attempts for someone to get through the CN moving green orbs corridors. They didn't complete it through practice the healer (me) and tank had to get him through it. Even with us he kept dying, not dodging, ran straight into the mobs instead of following and all this only to see him die at Orcus and watch because he didn't come close for heals/buffs as suggested and didn't have pots, health stones or LS to sustain himself from the edges.

    On the flip side I have been caught out before too. MSP I only completed a couple weeks ago in RQ. All previous groups either disbanded, got bugged 1st boss or couldn't do 2nd boss push. It was so long ago from when I actually read up on the dungeon I forgot the end boss fight. But I didn't stay quiet I spoke up and the tank explained and I tried what he said. Group wiped on first try but we eased the 2nd. The whole thing took 1hr. I could have been kicked at end boss esp. as dps is easy to replace but considering I was main dps and 2 man'd the 2nd boss with tank I would not of expected it.

    Even on a different run I got "stuck" in the other realm on last boss and was told it was a bug. But I went away and searched to find out it was not, it was just my lack of knowledge luckily this didn't make any difference as an 18k GWF was basically solo'in the whole run.

    There is a big difference between getting experience and actually putting that experience to good use. Not all people can do this despite how much experience they have/get. At certain points its definitely not the responsibility of a random group to make sure that person gets the much needed experience, knowledge and capability to meaningfully contribute if the group cant be carried and that point will vary from group to group, person to person.
  • dionchi
    dionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    Saying "Nobody wants to be there when people are trying to get that experience" is a little off the mark in my opinion.

    I enjoy running content where inexperienced players are trying to build up because I feel doing so is just increasing the number of more experienced and better equipped players, which will inevitably make everyone's gaming experience more enjoyable.

    Yes, I prefer to run random content with better equipped and more experienced players, but I don't begrudge running with players attempting to build their gear score or experience at all, but then that's just my opinion.
    DD~
  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,454 Arc User
    So the two of you here are willing to help. That's good, seriously.

    How many are in the game kicking players because they deem the il is too low, or they do one thing wrong, or they can't keep up, or...?
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • tchefi#6735
    tchefi#6735 Member Posts: 359 Arc User


    It is not ok to want to figure out things yourself when doing so leads to wasting other peoples time. If you want to figure out a zone yourself, either run it on Test when it is released, or find 4 other new people that also want to figure out the zone.

    Ohhhh, although i'm fundamentally agree that is a better idea to do a first run within a "safe" party (aka : guild/friends party), your argument can easily be reversed too :

    It is not ok to fast rush out things when doing so leads to people left far behind and to everything be killed too fast so they can't understand what's really going on.
    If you don't want to waste time, find 4 other old people that also want to fast rush the zone and so get rid of any "learner".

    It's a matter of perspective.

    ;)
  • aixis2000
    aixis2000 Member Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    ^ I dont think so and there is no option like the truth lies in the middle...think of 2 guys in school - one guy is in 1. class other guy in College or High school - there is no option for them to learn together and no middle option...only the College guy can teach the uneducated if he want but he shouldnt be forced to do so (thats actually Cryptics way)...really lopsided and lifetime is not endless but:

    I called the OP an elitist cause in an other thread he sounded that he can do CR solo with his 12k toon and wanted to harden all the Dungeons cause its to easy and he got bored....that would make it even for alot of well geared player unable to run endgame content - twice as hard doesnt mean u need double time it would mean only a few people would be able to run it and dictate prices in AH like in the past (Monopolits) cause drops from there will be very very rare for a very long time and thats what I call an elitist cause he only wanna have his elite is being able to do that.

    And those elitists were those guys that called already in the 2. week after Ravenloft release for experience...U. Prominence for more than 20 Mio in AH and Im sure they are really disapointed that its down to 7 Mio now...if its new and rare the market dictates - thats ok but if u want to make sure it stays rare...in RL u get punished for that...

    PS.: I have already tons of 2hour Tong runs behind me cause I had to carry others in REQ...I had no successfull CR run with REQ and only 1 time I could finish CODG with random ppl...thats what happen when Cryptic force ppl...

    To bring it bit more to reality: 1 guy is in 9. class other study already at a University...result will be the same


    To the point: Cryptic did their best with their "u have to deal with it if u wanna AD´s" -attitude and its noth healty for community cause both learner and veterans go out of a dungeon with a bad taste in their mouth...elitits...thats a special case - not healty for any community were causuals/normals being involved.
    Post edited by aixis2000 on
  • dionchi
    dionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited October 2018


    Why a new player shouldn't be free to hard try, as people did it X years ago on CN when CN was new, on FBI when FBI was new, on MSP when MSP was new, on TONG when TONG was new, etc, even if those dungeons are now well known by "old" players ?

    The problem is that players not understanding the script or their role easily can lead to wipes. If for instance a player do not know to kill the souls in Tong, wipes will follow.

    It is not ok to want to figure out things yourself when doing so leads to wasting other peoples time. If you want to figure out a zone yourself, either run it on Test when it is released, or find 4 other new people that also want to figure out the zone.

    I am ok with people being new. We were all new once, and new people need to be taught to be brought forward. But I _do_ expect them to tell the group if they did not do the zone before, and I _do_ expect them to listen to the instructions they will get.

    Intentionally wasting other peoples time is not ok.
    So you "expect" other players to play in a manner you approve of...

    Or what... they shouldn't be there?

    I'll let you figure out for yourself it this kind of attitude denotes a hint of elitism.

    A inexperienced or lesser geared person playing to the best of their ability and experience shouldn't be tagged with "wasting other people's time". Of course you should feel free to offer your advice on how they can perform better, but you shouldn't have any expectation that another person will always be willing to take your advice. It's not necessarily a reflection on you or the advice given, it's just the way it is sometimes.

    So if you don't want to be in a party that is "wasting other people's time", and by that I suspect you actually mean 'wasting your time', might I suggest assembling a queue group of players who meet your specifications and expectations, ahead of hitting the random queue button?

    Because if you just hit the random queue button without doing so you will probably have to contend with a random selection of players, not all of whom may be experienced, geared or play to your expectations.

    It is what it is.

    DD~
  • caldochaud#4880
    caldochaud#4880 Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    I believe that "elitism" is being used too loosely here and is to an extent, one-sided.

    What I am now seeing in Neverwinter is lousy under-geared (no mount, no companion, green-only gear and no enchantments) players are now the new elitists in the game. How so?

    These are the same gamers who do nothing in the game but whine about how people are being too busy "farming AD" to help them. They are ready to go out of their way to look down upon any serious gamer who has earned enough AD to buy anything good. They're the ones who insist that "nobody needs 100k AD" and that "AD should be nerfed in order to make people play the game". They just stand around and do nothing in dungeons, skirmishes and heroics while expecting the better geared player(s) to solo for them. It is truly a prevailing type of elitism in Neverwinter that is motivated by a lazy man's jealousy... or possibly the new-breed Socialist mindset. Either way, my point is, elitism in Neverwinter goes both ways.
    "Talent is a flame. Genius is a fire." - Sir Bernard Williams
  • c1k4ml3kc3
    c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    This is by far the biggest and most common of the social problems in the game.

    But I wouldn't simply call it ELITISM, but rather Meta-Mentality.

    This is a problem for any MMO game, ever. There will always be people who want to min-max their party outputs and utilize the best possible META STUDIES of the game's options.
    You have people running dungeons in the guild or alliance, but do not want to take someone else to learn or study the dungeon because they want to run in optimal party compositions.
    In this meta-mentality you have two kinds of people.
    Elitists who do not want to help and elitists who want to help.
    Elitists who do not want to help will usually run once or twice with you, prior to choosing a personalized party from their friend list/guild whatever.
    Elitists who do want to help you as long as you keep the Meta-mentality about you and they will run various trainings, too. Perhaps share some knowledge. It would be unwise to take their knowledge for granted and one should be able to read between the lines and choose how to take optimal build for going to a certain place instead to simply BLINDLY follow such people.
    Make a DISTINCTION between META-MENTALITY and people with actual KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAME's MECHANICS.
    Meta mentality will usually be someone who takes things without any dynamics and will run the things they conceive as only possible. These types of people ATM will usually run only Tomb of the Nine Gods. More often than not, META-MENTALITY people are in pursuit of finishing the dungeon as fast as possible in order to farm the chests as fast as possible, or seals for equipment, or something else altogether. Meta-Mentality people believe that all classes should behave/work a certain way and they ACTUALLY believe that Item Level is important. As soon as you see someone promoting ITEM LEVEL as something important, you know that they are newbie who are trying hard to be acknowledged due to their Item Level. In cases of transitions and changes, they won't find a solution for their build, but actually seek what others have to say, possibly within Meta-Mentality veterans. There are people who only run meta and meta alone.
    People with the KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAME's MECHANICS won't give a dime what you wear or how you wear it, they want you to experience the game for yourself. They can either help you or ignore you altogether depending upon how they feel. These are the people who can run, but not necessarily at all times, some of the not-so-meta builds and you'll always be amazed to see how their build outperforms your meta build by a long margin, especially in non-optimal parties. And this is a trap you need to evade.
    THE META build is as good as the optimal party composition is. Most meta builds and meta-mentality people only opt to run hi-end dungeons where their build is among the most prominent ones. But it doesn't tell you nor teach you anything about the rest of the game. So if you are a new player, do not blindly follow either Item Level or Meta parties because more often than not, your ideal build that you took time to make and perfect will inevitably get nerfed in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, and your whole time making it will be for nothing much.
    There are elitists in the game and more often than not they will portray knowledge of both aspects of the game and rarely tell you how to play it, if at all. Most of them are tinkerers by nature. Some of them will tell you, some of them don't give a HAMSTER. And that's the truth.
    I personally feel that nobody should be obliged to play a build/way that doesn't feel comfortable enough for them. I've met people who demand META play by all accounts, even though differences are only in time completion by several minutes. From my standpoint, if you can't have playing the game with someone with less-than-ideal build despite winning the dungeon/skirmish, then don't play MMOs at all and do everyone a favor by playing Pokemon or something like that.

    Above all of those, the worst are people who pretend to be elitists. There are those like that, too. They know how to play, maybe 60% overall, they know how some aspects of the game work, but can't really accept that someone knows something more than they do and they act like fine entrepreneurs of game's economics, weapon assortment enchantments and whatnot. Those are the most boring people you can find. They do not want to play the game, they want to play Business Simulator in a MMO. I mean, sure, that's interesting to someone, but endless lessons about it suck to read and nobody's getting any smarter in a game where prices dynamically change depending upon what's currently popular/ideal.

    Overall it's not a bad thing to be an elitists per se, but it is a bad thing to demand others to behave like you or play a certain way that seems like the only possible solution. Unfortunately, many only seek specific builds in their party compositions, which creates the problems we encounter daily in the current game itself. This is mitigated twofold-wise.

    1. Use guild to make parties for elitism-meta-mentality gameplay.
    2. Use guild to make parties for non-elitism-non-meta-mentality gameplay.

    Both of this are important, as the premade groups are a good way to avoid both extremely bad players or extremely cynical HAMSTERheads who go apeHAMSTER when Hulks miss the gate or Tiamat isn't beaten in first round...
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    dionchi said:


    So you "expect" other players to play in a manner you approve of...

    Or what... they shouldn't be there?

    Yes, I do expect people to play in a manner I approve of. I expect everyone to do their best to make a run as smooth and fast as possible. Otherwise they are wasting my time. I think respecting other peoples time is one of the basic traits being taught children, no? Be on time, don't dally. That you can see other people only as electronic avatars is no reason to not have good manners towards them.

    There is nothing in that post about gear levels. But it really should be. People signing up for zones they are obviously undergeared for is another way of wasting other peoples time.

    It is the basic principle of mmorpgs that you grow into content as your character improves. Understanding that your character is too weak(yet) to do some content is part of that.

    Post edited by mentinmindmaker on
  • chidion
    chidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User

    I believe that "elitism" is being used too loosely here and is to an extent, one-sided.

    What I am now seeing in Neverwinter is lousy under-geared (no mount, no companion, green-only gear and no enchantments) players are now the new elitists in the game. How so?

    These are the same gamers who do nothing in the game but whine about how people are being too busy "farming AD" to help them. They are ready to go out of their way to look down upon any serious gamer who has earned enough AD to buy anything good. They're the ones who insist that "nobody needs 100k AD" and that "AD should be nerfed in order to make people play the game". They just stand around and do nothing in dungeons, skirmishes and heroics while expecting the better geared player(s) to solo for them. It is truly a prevailing type of elitism in Neverwinter that is motivated by a lazy man's jealousy... or possibly the new-breed Socialist mindset. Either way, my point is, elitism in Neverwinter goes both ways.

    I don't think I've ever seen any player say something along the lines of "nobody needs 100K AD's", with astral diamonds appearing to be the lifeblood of the Neverwinter economy and the easiest and best way to progress a characters playing ability, that would be like saying a player is satisfied with the gear score and level they currently have and have no desire to improve.

    As I've mentioned before I personally don't believe we need some kind of special definition of "elitist" that only applies in Neverwinter, elitist universally applies to those who believe they are deserving of special consideration because they are superior, or others are inferior to them...

    Elitism by definition only goes one way - noun; the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society. The attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to a superior faction.

    Simply put, those who believe because of their superior experience or level, they should be able to dictate (not instruct or suggest) how other players play - and expect compliance are buy textbook definition elitist.

    Inversely those who tend to oppose the elitist mentality are "anti-elitist", I suppose you could put me into that category.

    I believe what you mentioned, those people who appear to be intentionally running inferior characters, "standing around" on the sidelines, avoiding mobs, letting others in the party do the actual work so they can come in after the fact and collect their reward, have previously been tagged a "leeches" - not "elitists". The two terms are not interchangeable and at least in my mind there is a clearly defined difference.

    Ultimately as has been mentioned, it all boils down to a preference in play style - cooperative, or self serving, particularly in random content. A player can either make the conscious decision to play cooperatively as a member of the party, or as a solo faction expecting other members of the party to acquiesce to their preferences and expectations.

    And again more experienced and better geared characters always have the option and ability to tone down their tactics whereas less experienced and lesser geared characters rarely have the ability to substantially step up their game.

    Just trying to keep it real here.