I am only going to restate this once more. There is no Fix to the situation the OP describes. It is self perpetuating and eternal. There will never be perfect class balance... ever. So there will always be an idea of the optimal group.
I have heard that so many times, and it is absolutely no excuse. In fact, it's a logical fallacy.
It's as ridiculous as saying "humans are innately imperfect, so nobody should ever bother to try and do the right thing".
Of course there will never be perfect balance, but this is not about perfect balance.This is about imbalance so badly out of whack that it has a massive, inarguable effect on party compositions and fundamental class relevancy for end game runs.
Yeah, there might always be an idea of a meta optimal group, but if the gaps between classes are small enough, what exactly the meta is will be highly arguable. If the gaps are small enough, party success won't be dominated by class composition. If the gaps are small enough, doing fast runs won't depend on party composition.
If the gaps between classes are small enough (i.e. if the DEVs even just *try* to balance them), people will happily form inclusive parties, and when the runs are tough, player's skills and cooperative team play will count for more then what class they're running. That's how an MMO should be.
I am not going to keep going over the same points.
Stop justifying the elitists.
Stop bringing in the elitists. The point was not about them, but how a certain class is perceived now. Your deflection of the issue is distracting to the point at hand. Ignoring what is happening is not going to make it better. You think there is no fix, I think there is.
Stop pretending like there isn't a problem. I would ask that you take the OPs concern seriously, as they are also mine and some other people who may or may not have posted here.
Yes it is about the elitists and nothing else. You don't need meta parties to beat CR but the group makers in PE insist on it. That is elitism whether you want to admit it or not. So you play CW and can't get groups? I play CW and can get groups. Oh, well that is odd. Obviously it must be Cryptic's doing. Problem solved, we'll blame Cryptic.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
The blame falls not on Cryptic for all the elitists, because there will always be those that think this class is better than that one for whatever reason. The blame falls on those that whine they cannot get a group for CR or any other dungeon. Simple, take the initiative and create your own group. Problem solved. Grab your friends/guidies or spam chat saying you need peeps for a dungeon run. Then show them that your class shines in the content.
The blame falls not on Cryptic for all the elitists, because there will always be those that think this class is better than that one for whatever reason. The blame falls on those that whine they cannot get a group for CR or any other dungeon. Simple, take the initiative and create your own group. Problem solved. Grab your friends/guidies or spam chat saying you need peeps for a dungeon run. Then show them that your class shines in the content.
Class imbalance is real and will exist, but there's a difference between someone being 5% stronger and someone being 35% stronger. Can we agree on that point alone? Discuss the relative merits in being the weakest of the dps classes with the weakest of the support options. Can we not agree that the worst dps shouldn't also be the worst support? Because if we can agree on that point alone, then this whole conversation is less about "I don't wanna have to try to find a group" and more about "all classes should at least offer some good reason to want them in any group."
SW sucks at damage, best healer in the game. HR you need aoe? I got aoe covered. GF I can buff you for insane amounts or I can burst the HAMSTER out of this single target. OP my class feature is by far the strongest class feat in the entire game offering anywhere from 15-40% of your overall dps depending on class. DC Hello buffs/debuffs. GWF lol just put anything in front of me. TR I can actually out dps the gwf when it comes to 1 single target boss. CW I can't match or offer anything that one of these classes don't do better since the thing I used to do as a support is now covered by gear offering more than enough stats to make my contribution irrelevant and my damage is laughable in comparison to other characters with similar gear because the things I depended on (multi-proccing) got removed from the game entirely for good reason (lagging out due to a mass of calculations isn't ideal) but received no compensation on the other end to make up for it.
Yes it is about the elitists and nothing else. You don't need meta parties to beat CR but the group makers in PE insist on it. That is elitism whether you want to admit it or not. So you play CW and can't get groups? I play CW and can get groups. Oh, well that is odd. Obviously it must be Cryptic's doing. Problem solved, we'll blame Cryptic.
You are responding from a view in a little bubble, surrounded by friends and alliance (who you probably met when the CW meant something).
What about up and coming CW who struggle to get into groups now in order to make those same networks? I guess you have no answer to that.
As an established player yourself, you seem to be commenting about the state of affairs protected from the "masses" of the /lfg PE group yourself. You claim that PE is elitist, but I think it is you who are, saying that people should get into groups like yourself, because you "have no trouble at all" and "find it odd" that others do. If that isn't elitism, I don't know what is.
Class imbalance is real and will exist, but there's a difference between someone being 5% stronger and someone being 35% stronger. Can we agree on that point alone? Discuss the relative merits in being the weakest of the dps classes with the weakest of the support options. Can we not agree that the worst dps shouldn't also be the worst support? Because if we can agree on that point alone, then this whole conversation is less about "I don't wanna have to try to find a group" and more about "all classes should at least offer some good reason to want them in any group."
SW sucks at damage, best healer in the game. HR you need aoe? I got aoe covered. GF I can buff you for insane amounts or I can burst the HAMSTER out of this single target. OP my class feature is by far the strongest class feat in the entire game offering anywhere from 15-40% of your overall dps depending on class. DC Hello buffs/debuffs. GWF lol just put anything in front of me. TR I can actually out dps the gwf when it comes to 1 single target boss. CW I can't match or offer anything that one of these classes don't do better since the thing I used to do as a support is now covered by gear offering more than enough stats to make my contribution irrelevant and my damage is laughable in comparison to other characters with similar gear because the things I depended on (multi-proccing) got removed from the game entirely for good reason (lagging out due to a mass of calculations isn't ideal) but received no compensation on the other end to make up for it.
NW is social game, make more firends guys, problem solved...
Yup, that's the MMO expectation, and it's why many of come to play MMOs.
Thing is, your class selection isn't meant to have as much as an effect on your ability to make those player connections as it does in Neverwinter.
My personal psychology is to play DPS (unfortunately the DPS class which is clearly bottom and least desirable by parties these days - does build humility though!), which is somehow why I *really* respect those who play the support role.
Now, those support guys who are part of the meta ... how do you think they go with that support psychology and staying by their guildies and friends when big imbalances exist in the game - along the lines you've suggested?
They're in demand, especially when the high value new module runs land. My experience is that good support players will have a queue of invites from other places (other than friends and guildies) for quick "sure thing" runs. So.... how do you think that tends to pan out in the Neverwinter landscape? You think that (given the helpful nature of support psychology) the good support players are hanging back to make it all happen for classes that aren't part of the desired meta, or do you expect that they tend to easily run off with those external party invites, and be unavailable so much of the time ....
For me, those questions about who we really are is the more interesting aspect of playing MMOs. Not talking about the run-ahead DPS egoists happy to play solo as if they're the only one in the party. They're boring. My experience is that, very generally, we need the DEVs to maintain better balance, and not let the human nature of support players be as challenged as it in Neverwinter
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited July 2018
Many defend the meta by saying that Cryptic does not have the ability to fix it and one should accept that, I am however going to go back to the opening post and make some proposals on how to fix it (because the meta is clearly not close to being reasonable).
- Cryptic must first state was the role(s) of each class really is, clerics are not the best healers, however warlocks are ?!? (this is ridiculous, try defending this on a steam review or some other gaming forum). Glass cannons do less damage than tanky gwfs (again try defending this concept on any independent game forum). Tanks do more do more damage than what one would assume are true dps classes, etc, etc, etc... If Cryptic declares that is what the classes are supposed to be then fine, but at least make this very clear to every new player starting this game what they are getting into. If Cryptic acknowledges that their class roles are not working as they intended, then it is the first step in fixing this mess.
- Making other game features relevant (healing, threat, stealth, crowd control), stop making everything about buffing dps.
- Related to the previous point, introduce hard caps on things like power share and other cheesy game mechanics that make one party composition slice through Orcus like a hot knife through butter and the rest pretty much all failures.
- Hire better game testers, because from what I see all they are doing is taking the best party composition currently possible and designing the next dungeon content with them in mind, thus creating an ever widening and gap between those that conform to the meta and those that do not.
- Introduce some kind of handicap system for those meta gamers and speed runners that demand extreme challenges, however make the default play less punishing for the average player.
i am not fond of "beta testers" for new patches, it made me feel that some are "brown-noseds" or not completely honest and then exploit after the patch released.
All I would ask to all of the participants in this discussion is to "walk a mile in the other person's shoes", so to speak.
If you are a person who only ever runs with your close circle of friends, then try solo random queueing, or finding a group in PE LFG or a private zerg channel, and see how the experience goes. You'll be judged harshly by your ilevel and you may even be kicked if you become the scapegoat of a wipe. But perhaps you'll understand the frustrations of those who have to endure that reality.
If you are a person who relies on LFG or channels for runs, then try to make friends of those whom you find to be not jerks and who do a good job, and then form your own party with those friends you make and you'll see how those dungeons that you formerly thought were really tough actually aren't all that bad when you have a halfway-decent team. EVEN IF your team doesn't necessarily conform to the meta, or if you happen to play a DPS class that isn't considered "at the top".
I personally have experienced both sides of the coin. When Mod 10 first dropped, I was in a guild that did not have a lot of endgame players ready to do content like FBI or AoS. So I had to rely on channels and LFG in order to find groups with my GWF, and it was a truly horrible experience. It was at that point that I decided that I had to gear up my DC if I was going to get anything finished at all. Now, I am in a different guild, with a lot of players willing to take me into endgame content with my GWF, even though I know they would rather have my DC come along instead. And the "non-meta" runs with my GWF go about as smoothly as the ones with my DC, because everyone knows what they are doing. So I've seen both sides. And yes there is something broken about the status quo.
Curious...How is this thread any different from the myriad of threads on current meta, class balancing or elitist players with respect to the current endgame content?
With each thread they are getting closer to the truth they don't want to face.
The blame falls not on Cryptic for all the elitists, because there will always be those that think this class is better than that one for whatever reason. The blame falls on those that whine they cannot get a group for CR or any other dungeon. Simple, take the initiative and create your own group. Problem solved. Grab your friends/guidies or spam chat saying you need peeps for a dungeon run. Then show them that your class shines in the content.
Class imbalance is real and will exist, but there's a difference between someone being 5% stronger and someone being 35% stronger. Can we agree on that point alone? Discuss the relative merits in being the weakest of the dps classes with the weakest of the support options. Can we not agree that the worst dps shouldn't also be the worst support? Because if we can agree on that point alone, then this whole conversation is less about "I don't wanna have to try to find a group" and more about "all classes should at least offer some good reason to want them in any group."
SW sucks at damage, best healer in the game. HR you need aoe? I got aoe covered. GF I can buff you for insane amounts or I can burst the HAMSTER out of this single target. OP my class feature is by far the strongest class feat in the entire game offering anywhere from 15-40% of your overall dps depending on class. DC Hello buffs/debuffs. GWF lol just put anything in front of me. TR I can actually out dps the gwf when it comes to 1 single target boss. CW I can't match or offer anything that one of these classes don't do better since the thing I used to do as a support is now covered by gear offering more than enough stats to make my contribution irrelevant and my damage is laughable in comparison to other characters with similar gear because the things I depended on (multi-proccing) got removed from the game entirely for good reason (lagging out due to a mass of calculations isn't ideal) but received no compensation on the other end to make up for it.
you made me laugh lol
>:) Life is like a train journey. Someone gets in, someone gets off and someone switches the wagon >
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
As far as everything else, the devs have made some mistakes/suboptimal designs, sure. However the meta is made by players and enforced by players. If you chose to run with strangers, you are going to have satisfy their demands or you don't get in their groups. This has always been the case in LFG or any custom channel on the same focus. This is the thing that keeps non FOTM classes out of dungeons. The devs arent sitting in PE dictating who canrun what. That is entirely on the players.
Well, that's nonsense. The devs made sure that GWF is the only really viable DPS class for endgame content except in parties formed from within guilds of friends lists who are willing to sit through (MUCH) longer fights and to do more work. The devs absolutely created the problem of non-GWF DPS classes being left int he cold and of far too many support players being required. This has been an issue for a long time. They should fix it. Finally. After YEARS of it being a problem.
They should also design endgame dungeons that aren't full of deadly boring control/instadeath mechanics, but that's another discussion.
If you want to play a non FOTM class, you need to find places that are accepting of your choice, not endlessly complain that no one wants you. This like beating your head against the ground and complaining you have a headache.
Yes, surely the reason they provided forums where players can suggest improvements is actually so that people like you can deride those players for daring to suggest improvements.
It's very simple: All DPS classes should do about the same amount of damage in their different ways. Some minor variation, say up to 10%, should be allowed for those that emphasize control.
All dungeons should be able to be run by a party of the minimum IL with only one healer and one tank.
Therefore, players should be able to form a party with expectations of reward in PE LFG chat.
If that can't be done, then there's a problem that the devs should be fixing.
The fact is that every new dungeon since the redesign of CN - which is OK, but barely - has been full of pointless adm overpowered control/instadeath mechanics that keep players of the minimum IL from finishing. We all know that the two-DC exploit has been a requirement for several mods now. It shouldn't have been allowed to happen, and it certainly shouldn't be getting worse.
And if you don't care, please get out of a discussion about how to solve the problem.
Well, that's nonsense. The devs made sure that GWF is the only really viable DPS class for endgame content except in parties formed from within guilds of friends lists who are willing to sit through (MUCH) longer fights and to do more work.
Uh, TRs are the best DPS in the game right now, even after the SoD nerf. A BIS GWF is a close second-place, but even a 15k TR who knows their stuff can beat a 16k+ GWF.
I know HRs and CWs who are perfectly capable of main-DPSing anything in the game, even if they're 5-10% slower than the best TRs I know.
I know one SW who does really great DPS and I have no idea how. Most SWs go Temptation, though, and I think SW is the class I'd be most skeptical of a stranger saying "I can totally DPS".
And let's not really discuss DPS GFs, shall we? The good ones of those are just scary.
But my main point is, GWF isn't the only viable DPS, it's not even the best DPS. It's the EASIEST DPS to play, and it's the simplest to get into endgame-ready state, but that doesn't at all make it the only viable choice.
> @lowjohn said: > I know HRs and CWs who are perfectly capable of main-DPSing anything in the game, even if they're 5-10% slower than the best TRs I know. > > I know one SW who does really great DPS and I have no idea how. Most SWs go Temptation, though, and I think SW is the class I'd be most skeptical of a stranger saying "I can totally DPS". >
- HR is fine, but CW’s gap is significantly more than 10%.
- SW can’t compete with top DPS classes unless exploiting the Brood of Hadar bug. Soulbinder is pretty decent at single-target, but SW still suffers from having too many of their class damage modifiers being enemy debuffs instead of self buffs.
- HR is fine, but CW’s gap is significantly more than 10%.
- SW can’t compete with top DPS classes unless exploiting the Brood of Hadar bug. Soulbinder is pretty decent at single-target, but SW still suffers from having too many of their class damage modifiers being enemy debuffs instead of self buffs.
HR hasn't been fine since edemo was endgame. The class has absurdly long animations, absurdly long charge refill and cooldown times (unless playing trapper, which is handicapped in a number of ways, especially some pointless target-cap nerfs that were done in a failed rework in mod 10 that was supposed to help the class), doesn't interact at all with the Orcus curse for helping DPS classes, probably still has issues with procs from weapon enchantments, has control abilities that don't control at all and tanking abilities that don't tank at all. It has only one meaningful party buff, which has to be used from so far away that the player is usually missing out on buffs from other party members at the time. It has only one real DPS encounter - Plant Growth - which is affected by the braindead target cap nerf and does no real control. It has no control escape, a non-functional dodge that doesn't avoid control effects, inadequate stamina regeneration, no real movement buffs to allow the player to engage mobs first the way GWF easily can (in fact HR is the slowest-moving class in the game, for no reason but that the devs don't like to make sense). And of course damage is never calculated based on both weapons, but only one or the other and so the class has the lowest weapon damage in the game. Oh, and Longstrider's Shot can't be used in the end of CODG or on the Giant Nothic Stone-Eye due to the pointless instadeath push or pull mechanics, so forget about buffing your party there. Forget about playing archery at all because you have to sit still through about four seconds of animation to go through the cycle of self-buffs. Don't use Slasher's Mark against the dragon turtle in FBI because the turtle is likely to just shrug you into the water and kill you. Spam your AoEs, which are your only really effective DPS in Combat or Trapper, against Drufi and you'll destroy all the ice that everyone needs to hide behind. Obviously we manage anyway, but only because the relative few players who've persisted in playing HR are fairly good at it by now, and still can't compete in DPS with a button-mashing GWF who's sipping an energy drink with his left hand.
Curious...How is this thread any different from the myriad of threads on current meta, class balancing or elitist players with respect to the current endgame content?
With each thread they are getting closer to the truth they don't want to face.
I'm sure we'll come full circle eventually. A few buffs here and some nerfs there and folks will be back to comparing epeen sizes by which DPS classes they play.
Forgive me for abbreviating your post, but I wasn't really commenting on the overall state of HR.
HR can be a very competitive single-target DPS, which is what the discussion is more or less about. All classes can murder trash, and while HR has some glaring issues *cough* ranged play style not a viable choice in PvE *cough*, it's not hurting meta-wise.
only because the relative few players who've persisted in playing HR are fairly good at it by now, and still can't compete in DPS with a button-mashing GWF who's sipping an energy drink with his left hand.
I sip energy drinks with both my hands and let my hamster do the button-mashing!
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
Forgive me for abbreviating your post, but I wasn't really commenting on the overall state of HR.
HR can be a very competitive single-target DPS, which is what the discussion is more or less about. All classes can murder trash, and while HR has some glaring issues *cough* ranged play style not a viable choice in PvE *cough*, it's not hurting meta-wise.
Yes, it is. DPS stands for damage per second. HR doesn't have the tools to attack mobs ahead of the group and survive the way a GWF does (or a TR for that matter - their control abilities actually control things outside of solo content, unlike HR's). You can set up the best possible spam AoE damage rotation on a zero-cooldown trapper or sweep up mobs to your heart's content with a combat build and you'll still be doing damage at one-half to one-third the rate of a GWF with 2k lower IL, or a DPS GF when both are buffed by the party for that matter. My bemoaning the state of that class is because it's the only one I have time to play, therefore I'm aware of its problems. I know there are a few in game who have the time to sit around with the code and/or ACT and figure out what amount of crit severity vs. crit vs. power vs. armor penetration vs. combat advantage is ideal, but I have to work for a living.
Anyhow, endgame content has all been built around a GWF plus three support classes and whoever else feels like coming along even since TONG and it's been terrible for the game. No one asked for content that requires the two-DC exploit. No one wanted a situation where 40% of the people running endgame content have to be playing DC. Cryptic gave it to us anyway.
My bemoaning the state of that class is because it's the only one I have time to play, therefore I'm aware of its problems. I know there are a few in game who have the time to sit around with the code and/or ACT and figure out what amount of crit severity vs. crit vs. power vs. armor penetration vs. combat advantage is ideal, but I have to work for a living.
On a side note, it doesn't strengthen your argument to be dismissive towards players who contribute to the collective knowledge base by crunching the data, and I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of them also worked for a living.
I get that you're dissatisfied with the state of HR, and I agree that there are valid reasons for that, but the fact remains that HR is powerful. An HR built and played for boss-killing will outburst a GWF (GWF gets so much attention for being a meta darling only because it's extremely versatile, durable, consistent, and comparatively easy to produce numbers with, not because it's the absolute best). I've also seen HR perform well in AoE damage, but the meta has very little to do with who can run ahead and pad their paingiver rating with trash kills; it has everything to do with downing bosses efficiently.
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It's as ridiculous as saying "humans are innately imperfect, so nobody should ever bother to try and do the right thing".
Of course there will never be perfect balance, but this is not about perfect balance.This is about imbalance so badly out of whack that it has a massive, inarguable effect on party compositions and fundamental class relevancy for end game runs.
Yeah, there might always be an idea of a meta optimal group, but if the gaps between classes are small enough, what exactly the meta is will be highly arguable.
If the gaps are small enough, party success won't be dominated by class composition.
If the gaps are small enough, doing fast runs won't depend on party composition.
If the gaps between classes are small enough (i.e. if the DEVs even just *try* to balance them), people will happily form inclusive parties, and when the runs are tough, player's skills and cooperative team play will count for more then what class they're running.
That's how an MMO should be.
Stop justifying the elitists.
Stop pretending like there isn't a problem. I would ask that you take the OPs concern seriously, as they are also mine and some other people who may or may not have posted here.
Remove the DO rework.Problem by 50% solved.
Revert the mod6 OP beta changes ( TW,Shield).The other 50% done.
SW sucks at damage, best healer in the game. HR you need aoe? I got aoe covered. GF I can buff you for insane amounts or I can burst the HAMSTER out of this single target. OP my class feature is by far the strongest class feat in the entire game offering anywhere from 15-40% of your overall dps depending on class. DC Hello buffs/debuffs. GWF lol just put anything in front of me. TR I can actually out dps the gwf when it comes to 1 single target boss. CW I can't match or offer anything that one of these classes don't do better since the thing I used to do as a support is now covered by gear offering more than enough stats to make my contribution irrelevant and my damage is laughable in comparison to other characters with similar gear because the things I depended on (multi-proccing) got removed from the game entirely for good reason (lagging out due to a mass of calculations isn't ideal) but received no compensation on the other end to make up for it.
What about up and coming CW who struggle to get into groups now in order to make those same networks? I guess you have no answer to that.
As an established player yourself, you seem to be commenting about the state of affairs protected from the "masses" of the /lfg PE group yourself. You claim that PE is elitist, but I think it is you who are, saying that people should get into groups like yourself, because you "have no trouble at all" and "find it odd" that others do. If that isn't elitism, I don't know what is.
Thing is, your class selection isn't meant to have as much as an effect on your ability to make those player connections as it does in Neverwinter.
My personal psychology is to play DPS (unfortunately the DPS class which is clearly bottom and least desirable by parties these days - does build humility though!), which is somehow why I *really* respect those who play the support role.
Now, those support guys who are part of the meta ... how do you think they go with that support psychology and staying by their guildies and friends when big imbalances exist in the game - along the lines you've suggested?
They're in demand, especially when the high value new module runs land. My experience is that good support players will have a queue of invites from other places (other than friends and guildies) for quick "sure thing" runs.
So.... how do you think that tends to pan out in the Neverwinter landscape? You think that (given the helpful nature of support psychology) the good support players are hanging back to make it all happen for classes that aren't part of the desired meta, or do you expect that they tend to easily run off with those external party invites, and be unavailable so much of the time ....
For me, those questions about who we really are is the more interesting aspect of playing MMOs.
Not talking about the run-ahead DPS egoists happy to play solo as if they're the only one in the party. They're boring.
My experience is that, very generally, we need the DEVs to maintain better balance, and not let the human nature of support players be as challenged as it in Neverwinter
- Cryptic must first state was the role(s) of each class really is, clerics are not the best healers, however warlocks are ?!? (this is ridiculous, try defending this on a steam review or some other gaming forum). Glass cannons do less damage than tanky gwfs (again try defending this concept on any independent game forum). Tanks do more do more damage than what one would assume are true dps classes, etc, etc, etc... If Cryptic declares that is what the classes are supposed to be then fine, but at least make this very clear to every new player starting this game what they are getting into. If Cryptic acknowledges that their class roles are not working as they intended, then it is the first step in fixing this mess.
- Making other game features relevant (healing, threat, stealth, crowd control), stop making everything about buffing dps.
- Related to the previous point, introduce hard caps on things like power share and other cheesy game mechanics that make one party composition slice through Orcus like a hot knife through butter and the rest pretty much all failures.
- Hire better game testers, because from what I see all they are doing is taking the best party composition currently possible and designing the next dungeon content with them in mind, thus creating an ever widening and gap between those that conform to the meta and those that do not.
- Introduce some kind of handicap system for those meta gamers and speed runners that demand extreme challenges, however make the default play less punishing for the average player.
If you are a person who only ever runs with your close circle of friends, then try solo random queueing, or finding a group in PE LFG or a private zerg channel, and see how the experience goes. You'll be judged harshly by your ilevel and you may even be kicked if you become the scapegoat of a wipe. But perhaps you'll understand the frustrations of those who have to endure that reality.
If you are a person who relies on LFG or channels for runs, then try to make friends of those whom you find to be not jerks and who do a good job, and then form your own party with those friends you make and you'll see how those dungeons that you formerly thought were really tough actually aren't all that bad when you have a halfway-decent team. EVEN IF your team doesn't necessarily conform to the meta, or if you happen to play a DPS class that isn't considered "at the top".
I personally have experienced both sides of the coin. When Mod 10 first dropped, I was in a guild that did not have a lot of endgame players ready to do content like FBI or AoS. So I had to rely on channels and LFG in order to find groups with my GWF, and it was a truly horrible experience. It was at that point that I decided that I had to gear up my DC if I was going to get anything finished at all. Now, I am in a different guild, with a lot of players willing to take me into endgame content with my GWF, even though I know they would rather have my DC come along instead. And the "non-meta" runs with my GWF go about as smoothly as the ones with my DC, because everyone knows what they are doing. So I've seen both sides. And yes there is something broken about the status quo.
>:) Life is like a train journey. Someone gets in, someone gets off and someone switches the wagon>They should also design endgame dungeons that aren't full of deadly boring control/instadeath mechanics, but that's another discussion. Yes, surely the reason they provided forums where players can suggest improvements is actually so that people like you can deride those players for daring to suggest improvements.
It's very simple:
All DPS classes should do about the same amount of damage in their different ways. Some minor variation, say up to 10%, should be allowed for those that emphasize control.
All dungeons should be able to be run by a party of the minimum IL with only one healer and one tank.
Therefore, players should be able to form a party with expectations of reward in PE LFG chat.
If that can't be done, then there's a problem that the devs should be fixing.
The fact is that every new dungeon since the redesign of CN - which is OK, but barely - has been full of pointless adm overpowered control/instadeath mechanics that keep players of the minimum IL from finishing. We all know that the two-DC exploit has been a requirement for several mods now. It shouldn't have been allowed to happen, and it certainly shouldn't be getting worse.
And if you don't care, please get out of a discussion about how to solve the problem.
I know HRs and CWs who are perfectly capable of main-DPSing anything in the game, even if they're 5-10% slower than the best TRs I know.
I know one SW who does really great DPS and I have no idea how. Most SWs go Temptation, though, and I think SW is the class I'd be most skeptical of a stranger saying "I can totally DPS".
And let's not really discuss DPS GFs, shall we? The good ones of those are just scary.
But my main point is, GWF isn't the only viable DPS, it's not even the best DPS. It's the EASIEST DPS to play, and it's the simplest to get into endgame-ready state, but that doesn't at all make it the only viable choice.
ETA this is responding to feanor70118, not lowjohn.
> I know HRs and CWs who are perfectly capable of main-DPSing anything in the game, even if they're 5-10% slower than the best TRs I know.
>
> I know one SW who does really great DPS and I have no idea how. Most SWs go Temptation, though, and I think SW is the class I'd be most skeptical of a stranger saying "I can totally DPS".
>
- HR is fine, but CW’s gap is significantly more than 10%.
- SW can’t compete with top DPS classes unless exploiting the Brood of Hadar bug. Soulbinder is pretty decent at single-target, but SW still suffers from having too many of their class damage modifiers being enemy debuffs instead of self buffs.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
HR can be a very competitive single-target DPS, which is what the discussion is more or less about. All classes can murder trash, and while HR has some glaring issues *cough* ranged play style not a viable choice in PvE *cough*, it's not hurting meta-wise.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Anyhow, endgame content has all been built around a GWF plus three support classes and whoever else feels like coming along even since TONG and it's been terrible for the game. No one asked for content that requires the two-DC exploit. No one wanted a situation where 40% of the people running endgame content have to be playing DC. Cryptic gave it to us anyway.
I get that you're dissatisfied with the state of HR, and I agree that there are valid reasons for that, but the fact remains that HR is powerful. An HR built and played for boss-killing will outburst a GWF (GWF gets so much attention for being a meta darling only because it's extremely versatile, durable, consistent, and comparatively easy to produce numbers with, not because it's the absolute best). I've also seen HR perform well in AoE damage, but the meta has very little to do with who can run ahead and pad their paingiver rating with trash kills; it has everything to do with downing bosses efficiently.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH