Cryptic: New Idea: How about End Game Content That Does NOT Revolve Around 1 GWF, 2DC's 1 OP, 1 SW

dariandelford

Seriously the other classes would love to play the end game content. How would you fix this issue. I dunno, how about buffing the lagging classes up to par to be equal to the other classes.

Seriously this has been a problem for a long long long long and in case your wondering a long time now. I get it people want to finish the content as soon as possible. Part of this reason is the absolutely horrid RNG that determines the end dungeon rewards. I get it, its not just a class thing, itas an all around package thing. But I have been in PE for the last 3 nights as a 17k MoF CW that can not get a group to save his life.... why.....1 GWF, 2 DCS's 1 OP and 1 Temp Lock.

Is this seriously the future you see for the game?

jade1280

Or you know...just add a Bard class that destroys all others in PVE that sounds good to.

dariandelford

jade1280 said:

Or you know...just add a Bard class that destroys all others in PVE that sounds good to.

LOL I am all for new classes, Browsing the forums here you would have thought the druid was going to be released. But the problem is outside of that subset that I mentioned, No one wants any of the other classes. I only play a CW, both SS and MoF. As a SS I never got into groups so I was forced to change to an MoF. As an MoF I rarely if at all get into groups. Usually will take me several hours just to get into a ToNG, CoDG or Once in a CR since it was released. I actually asked in zone chat in PE last night prior to this post as was given multiple reasons by people who I know have been playing the game for just as long as me. (BETA).

My point is Cryptic as made this a very cookie cutter game in regards to End Game Content. It is designed with very little variation in the group for the last three dungeons. I honestly do not know to much about the other classes. But something has got to give somewhere. Many of us are tired of being not wanted in groups.

pitshade

Make friends in the game and you can run whatever you want. Run with strangers and you have to play by their rules. If your friends treat you like a stranger, make better friends.

I haven't once been in CR group of the composition you describe and yet I've already got the chest piece on one character and working more. These groups weren't in LFG in PE, and I'm happy about that.

guille23mx

or start your own group....

plasticbat

It is not a Cryptic problem. It is certain people want to play the game with the team composition they want. You can set up your own party and arrange your own team composition although people from PE may not join you. Cryptic did not set up a cookie cutter. Certain players do. Many do not LFG in PE anyway. There are 'friend', channels, guild, alliance.

arcanjo86

private queues need to be removed, to make the game challenging for "end game" players, private queue made it easier to do new queued content.

hawkeyel

They didnt seem to have any problem adding in a tank buster power with some bosses .So they should consider adding in a Top of the pain giver boss skill to kill the one that is killing it. Then teams will be needing to have more than just one DPS class on the team. Just my two coppers worth.

pitshade

Strahd already has a mechanic that punishes people for having only 1 DPS. 2 mechanics, actually.

sjk2603

I play a 17.7k op devotion spec...AND I STILL HAVE TROUBLE GETTING A DECENT PARTY.
I was in Castle Ravenloft and this other guy says "Op tank doesnt know what to do", at which point i said im not a tank, i'm heals and buffs. He said OP's tank in here only and kicked me from party.
When are cryptic gonna make content that can be done with the correct party composition of 3 dps one tank one healer. Its annoying

pitshade

I completed the dungeon yesterday with 1 GF tank, 1 DC and 3 DPS. Don't blame the devs for players' bad behavior.

lukejones77

plasticbat said:

It is not a Cryptic problem. It is certain people want to play the game with the team composition they want. You can set up your own party and arrange your own team composition although people from PE may not join you. Cryptic did not set up a cookie cutter. Certain players do. Many do not LFG in PE anyway. There are 'friend', channels, guild, alliance.

It's a Cryptic problem.

Players find the best way to best themselves, form the best parties, and get the best (quickest, low risk run results).
Cryptic's job is to keep the classes balanced - at least in a way that keeps them relevant, if not specifically via equivalent DPS, buffing etc.

Cryptic have demonstrated, with no uncertainty, that they have little to no interest in making class balance/relevance any kind of priority.
They've been consistent about this for 3 years now.
When they got rid of entity procs for in-game performance (i.e. killed off the lightning that CWs relied on), they very quickly made "lever adjustments" in buff and nerf changes to restore the status quo. Hence, they demonstrated how quickly and easily they can make any adjustments that they actually want to make.

A very clear, unspoken message has been sent to players: You can make yourself a GWF if you want to play DPS, or a DC if you want to be support, and you will be very well looked after by the DEVs.
You will be super-relevant, and super desirable for being included in the best best parties, chasing the newest content, for the newest drops, at the highest drop rate they'll ever be, and the highest prices they'll fetch in the AH.
If you have big real money to spend, spend it on these classes. They've shown you for 3 years that you will be well looked after,and your investment won't get nerfed.

For classes that get left behind, classes that struggled to get new end-game content invites, or had enough pride in themselves to not lean on friends and guidies for charitable invites - too bad.
It's a free to pay model, and this approach has people confidently spending big in DEV-loved and protected classes. Surely game viability trumps the unspoken MMO trust of DEVs attempting to keep classes balanced, or at least relevant?

vordayn

It's because everyone else has merely become a buff-bot for the one DPS.

The game rewards this type of playstyle: dungeons go faster, people get their loot quicker.

I do not think this is merely just down to "players' behaviour", but rather the circumstances which reward the best playstyle. It's a product of the environment as well.

eclipseblood

Ur fastest runs will always be with good players that know wat they're doing not with a meta lfg grp. Ignore lfg chat and make ur own grps from friends and alliance, they shouldn't care wat u want to run as I know I don't when one of my friends ask. Cw, sw, hr, and tr are all viable and have good specs gwf dps isn't then end and be all.

dupeks

FWIW, I think that there is a ridiculous amount of over-emphasis on the meta composition. Much to the detriment of actual pace of dungeon completion.

Content essentially fall into 3 categories:

1. So easy it doesn't matter even slightly (CN and below)
   
2. Moderately difficult, so it matters slightly... but the time you save not waiting around for the meta party usually outweighs the amount of time you would shave by running the meta (FBI, MSP, TONG)
   
3. Different metas apply: Trials, which kind of resemble #2 and have longer queue building times anyway. And CR, which is significantly less dependent than prior content for reasonable clear times on running meta composition)
   

It's been mentioned before, but find people who you want to run with and run a rainbow party. You'll find it's a lot of fun.

lukejones77

vordayn said:

It's because everyone else has merely become a buff-bot for the one DPS.

The game rewards this type of playstyle: dungeons go faster, people get their loot quicker.

I do not think this is merely just down to "players' behaviour", but rather the circumstances which reward the best playstyle. It's a product of the environment as well.

DEVs control all that.
The current class balance situation has been in effect for a very long time now.
The reality of class relevance/imbalance became obvious to the general player base from module 12, when the DEVs finally introduced tough content that forced/encouraged players to make party selection more carefully.

C'mon, this is actually very, glaringly, obvious. There's just 3 obvious things you need to be aware of:

1. There are very clear and obvious class balance/relevance issues. Anyone (like me) who has regularly done spot check class counts of parties in end-game content since mod 12, can readily see massive class bias, obvious within several statistical standard deviations.

2. The DEVs have demonstrated that they can readily terminate an entire in-game cross-class mechanic (like entity procs), and readily make appropriate class adjustments to maintain the status quo.
They clearly choose to maintain the imbalanced status quo.

3. This has gone on for a very long time. It was there before mod 12, but it became really, really obvious after mod 12, and is persisting now though mod 14. There's no sign that it's going to change. For any change, the proof will be in the reporting statistics of party class compositions for newly released end-game content. You can absolutely rely on the "wisdom of the crowd" to show you how well balanced the relevance of classes is.

Easy, obvious conclusion is, the class relevance/balance has been seriously out of whack for a very long time, and the DEVs, who could easily restore balance (or at least make the very large gaps a *lot* smaller), are chosing to not do that.

I really don't think that anyone properly aware of the game and it's history will argue with the above 3 points. The only point of conjecture is "Why are the DEVs doing this?"
I've already stated my interpretation of "why", though I'd be interested to see is anyone could come up with a better theory as to why such imbalanced class party compositions don't get fixed.

plasticbat

lukejones77 said:

Players find the best way to best themselves, form the best parties, and get the best (quickest, low risk run results).
Cryptic's job is to keep the classes balanced - at least in a way that keeps them relevant, if not specifically via equivalent DPS, buffing etc.

Does it matter? If the players always choose the fastest way, it will either be meta A this time and meta B next time.
Once upon of time, the meta was CW and dungeon run was about CW such as 5 CWs.
Players always find the most efficient composition to run dungeon if they are counting how many minutes.

lukejones77

plasticbat said:

lukejones77 said:

Players find the best way to best themselves, form the best parties, and get the best (quickest, low risk run results).
Cryptic's job is to keep the classes balanced - at least in a way that keeps them relevant, if not specifically via equivalent DPS, buffing etc.

Does it matter? If the players always choose the fastest way, it will either be meta A this time and meta B next time.
Once upon of time, the meta was CW and dungeon run was about CW such as 5 CWs.
Players always find the most efficient composition to run dungeon if they are counting how many minutes.

It absolutely does matter.

The problem is that the imbalance gaps between the classes is very large. This makes the composition of "the meta" very obvious, leading to extreme class bias that shows very clearly in end-game party class composition.
In situations as bad as this, being in the "right class" allows you 1000s of gear item level difference in being picked over somebody from the "wrong class". As a GWF, I'm sure you're well aware of this.

If the DEVs at least made some effort to reduce the large gaps between classes, the meta wouldn't be as obvious, and the pressure to "go with the meta" as intence. Characters that have worked hard wouldn't be so easily ignored just because they're the "wrong class", in favour of some other class 1000s of item level (and many, millions of AD) less.

You actually referenced the CW meta that we had almost 4 years ago, as if it somehow justifies the situation that we have today?
That was the "goto argument" justifying the imbalance that followed the CW nerf for a long, long time - but it's become such a long standing unfair situation for CWs since then, that people protecting their anti-nerf stance on favoured classes have decently not referred to it. Really disappointed that you went there.

You really want to tell new CW players that don't feel relevant to end-game content, or even the few old school CWs that have been in a nerfed state for 3 years, that it's all ok, because CWs had a good time playing over 3 years ago? That takes a really, really hard heart.

wylonus

simple, sound like it all come to "class bullying" very picky group only want fixed class to fit in, almost like arrogant 'popular' school kids.
that was so cliche, they want speediest, most dps and higher base geared, and very experienced, often they dont want to drag someone who would collect coin drops or being carried to boss rooms, only want them to keep up running from mob to mob clusters as they go.
they seem frown on someone gather lockboxes or blue drops that is trash to those folks.

that why i stay with guild and allainces with open mind and they love to teach or train on boss fights, or learning as we go as groups. Pick up groups are random as good or bad, often someone would leave unexpected if not happy or being booted for low gear or too slow, rarely if too greedy.

pitshade

Cryptic doesn't control who you run with. If you chose to join parties in LFG or elitist channels or if your guild acts like one, that is the problem here. While class balance could be better it won't ever be perfect and as long as their are imbalances, there will be an optimized group. That group by default must leave out at least 3 classes. It will always be what elitist gatekeepers want. There is no point expecting anything else from them. There is also no reason to leave oneself at their mercy either.

I play CW and DC. So does one of my friends. Most of our runs together we aren't playing both playing the same class. Do the math. You don't need meta groups to beat the content and you don't need the people that insist on them, either.

majorcharvenak

Curious...How is this thread any different from the myriad of threads on current meta, class balancing or elitist players with respect to the current endgame content?

vordayn

pitshade said:

Cryptic doesn't control who you run with.

There is a glaringly obvious example within the game that contradicts this : Random Queues.

Cryptic dictates that you must run with 1 Healer, 1 Tank, 3 DPS to even queue for this.

The fact that this forced composition exists, shows just how out of touch they are with what compositions are being run currently in most end-game and high-end content. Just take a look at the search function for "Castle Ravenloft" and tell me if there isn't an overwhelming representation of tanks and healers (and specifically of one specific class for each).

Cryptic designing content to either succeed (efficiently or at all) with the 1 DPS + 4 buff meta (case in point: Orcus in Tong, I mean c'mon a 200% DPS buff for 1 party member) or the defensive OP/DC/GF meta (e.g. Strahd, in order use the least amount of scrolls) suggests to me that there is an environment that rewards these playstyles.

While you're not forced to run it, those who do are certainly rewarded.

By saying that 'you can run this', or 'you are not forced to run this', diminishes the discrimination that certain classes do feel in this game. Your experience does not override theirs.

lukejones77

pitshade said:

Cryptic doesn't control who you run with.

It's not control, but it *is* massive influence, and several classes suffer very badly from it.

Whatever your personal experience, the party composition statistics show that overall,there are systemic imbalance issues that many suffer with.

The fact is that, for end-game content, the support (buff/debuff) actually control the situation. A good support team can take the worst DPS with them, and succeed quite well. I once had a run where my guild grabbed by CW for a TONG run just as I completed a respec. We didn't notice until after the Ras boss kill that my single target boss loadout didn't even have an active pet (i.e. no bonding stones). Yup a really strong support team can take almost anyone with them as the DPS. They do, however, like to grind with better DPS for faster completion times.
The less optimal the support team, however, the more pressure they're under to get better DPS, and given the large gaps in DPS class balances, this starts to hit certain classes badly.

pitshade

> @vordayn said:
> Cryptic doesn't control who you run with.
>
> There is a glaringly obvious example within the game that contradicts this : Random Queues.
>
> Cryptic dictates that you must run with 1 Healer, 1 Tank, 3 DPS to even queue for this.
>

"Who" refers to people, not classes. No one is forcing you to group with anyone you don't want to run with. If you want to make a full party and get the RQ bonus, you need a tank and healer, but it doesn't have to be someone from PE LFG.

>Cryptic designing content to either succeed (efficiently or at all) with the 1 DPS + 4 buff meta (case in point: Orcus in Tong, I mean c'mon a 200% DPS buff for 1 party member) or the defensive OP/DC/GF meta (e.g. Strahd, in order use the least amount of scrolls) suggests to me that there is an environment that rewards these playstyles.
>
I have beaten both dungeons with 3 dps groups, without life scrolls as well. I know someone who beat CR this weekend from RQ in less than an hour, solo queuing.

Cryptic isn't designing content for buff groups. Insofar as they have ever addressed it, the devs were opposed to running like that. As you demonstrated above, they want us running 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. Don't argue both sides of the coin here, they want is running 3 dps groups at the same time they want us running 4 buff parties?

pitshade

> @lukejones77 said:
> Cryptic doesn't control who you run with.
>
>
>
>
> It's not control, but it *is* massive influence, and several classes suffer very badly from it.
>
> Whatever your personal experience, the party composition statistics show that overall,there are systemic imbalance issues that many suffer with.
>
They suffer from it only because they subject themselves to people who form groups using a laundry list of classes.

There a myriad of issues with design on this game, but blaming the devs for the actions of players in elitist channels, custom or default is simply excusing and normalizing the actions of those individuals. There us always going to be a meta and people will always get excluded. I'm a beta player, like the OP and very well remember times when GWF, TR, HR, all non CWs... couldn't get groups in PE. 5 years ago, I couldn't get groups on my CW because I wasn't HV equipped. The solution then as now, is to band together with people who don't enforce the meta and make your own groups. That was a big part of the Legit channel back then, as much as the whole Not Cheating thing.

gromovnipljesak

That's COMPLETELY wrong.

We GWFs prefer GF over SW.

Jokes aside, HRs hit hard, TRs are still really HAMSTER good, and its yer fault if ya can't do yer job properly.
Other classes are always welcome in my groups. Heck, I'd even do 3x DPS CR runs if that could resemble any kind of a fast run.

I mean, putting chase items and then expecting players to go the slow route is kinda bonkers.

cherryman1

lukejones77 said:

It's not control, but it *is* massive influence, and several classes suffer very badly from it.

Whatever your personal experience, the party composition statistics show that overall,there are systemic imbalance issues that many suffer with.

The fact is that, for end-game content, the support (buff/debuff) actually control the situation. A good support team can take the worst DPS with them, and succeed quite well. I once had a run where my guild grabbed by CW for a TONG run just as I completed a respec. We didn't notice until after the Ras boss kill that my single target boss loadout didn't even have an active pet (i.e. no bonding stones). Yup a really strong support team can take almost anyone with them as the DPS. They do, however, like to grind with better DPS for faster completion times.
The less optimal the support team, however, the more pressure they're under to get better DPS, and given the large gaps in DPS class balances, this starts to hit certain classes badly.

I don't see an issue with the DPS at this time when you get to end game. Mid game there is a large gap between some of them. Also, the player and supports have more to do with how well a DPS class performs over any other factor that I have seen.

vordayn

pitshade said:

> @vordayn said:

> Cryptic doesn't control who you run with.

>

> There is a glaringly obvious example within the game that contradicts this : Random Queues.

>

> Cryptic dictates that you must run with 1 Healer, 1 Tank, 3 DPS to even queue for this.

>



"Who" refers to people, not classes. No one is forcing you to group with anyone you don't want to run with. If you want to make a full party and get the RQ bonus, you need a tank and healer, but it doesn't have to be someone from PE LFG.



>Cryptic designing content to either succeed (efficiently or at all) with the 1 DPS + 4 buff meta (case in point: Orcus in Tong, I mean c'mon a 200% DPS buff for 1 party member) or the defensive OP/DC/GF meta (e.g. Strahd, in order use the least amount of scrolls) suggests to me that there is an environment that rewards these playstyles.

>

I have beaten both dungeons with 3 dps groups, without life scrolls as well. I know someone who beat CR this weekend from RQ in less than an hour, solo queuing.



Cryptic isn't designing content for buff groups. Insofar as they have ever addressed it, the devs were opposed to running like that. As you demonstrated above, they want us running 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. Don't argue both sides of the coin here, they want is running 3 dps groups at the same time they want us running 4 buff parties?

You seem to be selective with what I am saying to further your own point.

Just because you have "beaten the dungeon with 3 dps groups, without life scrolls", do you think you speak for the majority of players that queue up in REQ? My point was, REQ forces these compositions, which are not ideal.

Second point you seemed to have missed, your statement "Cryptic isn't designing content for buff groups", can you honestly say that DOES NOT apply to Orcus in Tong? You have ignored that point of mine as well.

You have misconstrued my words by saying I am arguing "both sides of the coin". I have pointed out that yes, Cryptic organises parties into non-ideal compositions, but yet the content favours the meta. These statements are jarring because of how out of touch Cryptic is with what is going on, but I am not sure if you realise that. You seem to be only content in saying, "I beat the content not using the meta, so anyone else can", which is inherently dismissive of the valid complaint from the OP and other people experiencing the same thing.

The current META, and you cannot deny there is no meta, is discriminatory to certain classes. Again, I reiterate, while your experience is against the current meta, it does not speak for everybody, and it makes you sound elitist. So please, do not dismiss the concerns of others because you can do what others struggle to do.

pitshade said:

I have beaten both dungeons with 3 dps groups, without life scrolls as well. I know someone who beat CR this weekend from RQ in less than an hour, solo queuing.

Is this the majority of your experience? 3 dps per run? And with 3 dps, I mean DPS that includes a random distribution of HR/TR/GWF/Fury SW/SS CW, and not just the 'buffer' dps. I highly doubt this. If you are trying to make a point by demonstrating an outlier to a rule, then you are doing it wrong.

vordayn

pitshade said:

> @lukejones77 said:

> Cryptic doesn't control who you run with.

>

>

>

>

> It's not control, but it *is* massive influence, and several classes suffer very badly from it.

>

> Whatever your personal experience, the party composition statistics show that overall,there are systemic imbalance issues that many suffer with.

>

They suffer from it only because they subject themselves to people who form groups using a laundry list of classes.



There a myriad of issues with design on this game, but blaming the devs for the actions of players in elitist channels, custom or default is simply excusing and normalizing the actions of those individuals. There us always going to be a meta and people will always get excluded. I'm a beta player, like the OP and very well remember times when GWF, TR, HR, all non CWs... couldn't get groups in PE. 5 years ago, I couldn't get groups on my CW because I wasn't HV equipped. The solution then as now, is to band together with people who don't enforce the meta and make your own groups. That was a big part of the Legit channel back then, as much as the whole Not Cheating thing.

"Blaming the devs for the actions of players in elitist channels". Hmm, so nerfing the CW into mediocre DPS is not an action of the devs?

I have also experienced this discrimination against CWs in random queues! Are you implying not to run any content outside of friends and people you 'band' with? Now not playing with the majority of the playerbase ... that is sounding a bit elitist as well. :*

vordayn

pitshade said:

but blaming the devs for the actions of players in elitist channels, custom or default is simply excusing and normalizing the actions of those individuals

@pitshade, note what the OP said about being discriminated against, in PE, that is not an elitist channel. I do not know where your crusade against 'elitist channels' came into this:

dariandelford said:

But I have been in PE for the last 3 nights as a 17k MoF CW that can not get a group to save his life.... why.....1 GWF, 2 DCS's 1 OP and 1 Temp Lock .

smulch

Trying to find a group as a CW is not a pleasant experience right now.

I'm currently at 17250 ilvl and am doing (for the class) very very high dps. Yet, I have to fight tooth and nails to have a spot in a cradle or CR group as dps. For cradle, if it wasn't of this one person, I wouldn't have been able to get a single group as dps actually. And that's in about 2 months of time. Now, I can obviously get in as a mof (for cradle, that is) but I am not geared for the job and I loathe it.

For CR, I get discriminated quite often even when I get in and if there's a wipe, the other people are very VERY quick to point fingers at me even if the wipe was no fault of mine.

And I'm very likely to be one of the top wanted CWs that use those channels. I've got it awful and that is as top tier. Imagine how bad it must be for those that aren't anywhere near this ilvl.

The 1 dps meta needs to die.