ive run CR way more often with HR/TR/SW then with GWF tbh. even CW
True. And i never ran CR with this so called "meta group". This thread is one of thousands "I try to run rnd and i cant find a party. Instead of looking in my guild or building a good FL, i gonna blame cryptic for it". Its just boring....
ive run CR way more often with HR/TR/SW then with GWF tbh. even CW
True. And i never ran CR with this so called "meta group". This thread is one of thousands "I try to run rnd and i cant find a party. Instead of looking in my guild or building a good FL, i gonna blame cryptic for it". Its just boring....
The reason why there is this thread that is, as you put it, "one of thousands", points at something: there is a problem. If "one of thousands" has managed to be posted multiple times, then there is a problem.
Running around with your exclusive friends list, or top tier guild, is akin to an ostrich hiding it's head in the sand - not acknowledging that there was (and is) a problem for the OP, and remains a problem for many people i.e. your "one of thousands", just shows your lack of empathy.
It's not control, but it *is* massive influence, and several classes suffer very badly from it.
Whatever your personal experience, the party composition statistics show that overall,there are systemic imbalance issues that many suffer with.
The fact is that, for end-game content, the support (buff/debuff) actually control the situation. A good support team can take the worst DPS with them, and succeed quite well. I once had a run where my guild grabbed by CW for a TONG run just as I completed a respec. We didn't notice until after the Ras boss kill that my single target boss loadout didn't even have an active pet (i.e. no bonding stones). Yup a really strong support team can take almost anyone with them as the DPS. They do, however, like to grind with better DPS for faster completion times. The less optimal the support team, however, the more pressure they're under to get better DPS, and given the large gaps in DPS class balances, this starts to hit certain classes badly.
I don't see an issue with the DPS at this time when you get to end game. Mid game there is a large gap between some of them. Also, the player and supports have more to do with how well a DPS class performs over any other factor that I have seen.
There's a clear issue with DPS at this time when you get to end game.
The context here is new endgame content where you get great AD value drops, latest gear etc - not running the old T2 stuff where you grind for a tiny small % increase.
Firstly party places are dominated by support, leaving far fewer places than design intended (3DPS/1tank/1healer should average to 60% of players running tough end-game content from DPS classes). It's not necessarily obvious as you form parties, but the statistical outcome and general feel if you're one of the suffering classes, is really clear.
Secondly, and most importantly, there are very large gaps between the DPS capability across the range of DPS classes, leading to a situation where some DPS classes do very, very well, and others are badly discriminated against. Being a particular DPS class is a massive advantage when grabbing the DPS spot.
Running around with your exclusive friends list, or top tier guild, is akin to an ostrich hiding it's head in the sand - not acknowledging that there was (and is) a problem for the OP, and remains a problem for many people i.e. your "one of thousands", just shows your lack of empathy.
Oh sry.....the OP named this thread end game content...my bad. I thought we are talking about endgame. Maybe you can enlight me and can explain what endgame in an mmoprg means? So if i play that so called endgame and i made all my work to get there and i wanna play with other ppl they are also wanna play endgame its MY lack of empathy because i play the game in the best and most effectively way? Sounds strange, doesnt it?
P.S.: You saw that i wrote i dont run meta groups? So its my lack of empathy if some one blames the game about his lack to find a group or a guild or making his own good FL to run endgame?? Stupid...
Running around with your exclusive friends list, or top tier guild, is akin to an ostrich hiding it's head in the sand - not acknowledging that there was (and is) a problem for the OP, and remains a problem for many people i.e. your "one of thousands", just shows your lack of empathy.
Oh sry.....the OP named this thread end game content...my bad. I thought we are talking about endgame. Maybe you can enlight me and can explain what endgame in an mmoprg means? So if i play that so called endgame and i made all my work to get there and i wanna play with other ppl they are also wanna play endgame its MY lack of empathy because i play the game in the best and most effectively way? Sounds strange, doesnt it?
P.S.: You saw that i wrote i dont run meta groups? So its my lack of empathy if some one blames the game about his lack to find a group or a guild or making his own good FL to run endgame?? Stupid...
Good one spidey! You play the game "best and most effectively way". Congratulations.
Maybe you should also read the content of the OP's post and not just the title. You know, the devil is in the details.
So, the OP said he was LFG in PE for a team. Now, a MMORPG, means that it is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. Where do you find other players? In Protector's Enclave (PE). But you say he should just stick with his friends? Oh, I dunno, how do you make friends if not in the most populous areas. Should he go to Blacklake district? Or maybe try a Random Queue and meet people there. Or maybe, just maybe, he should /LFG 'friends' in PE? Would that work?
How do you even begin to meet other teams in order to be invited into groups, or for you or them to add to your/their friend list if they won't play with you in the first place.
I guess PE isn't a good place to start. Care to enlighten the OP where to go then?
How do you even begin to meet other teams in order to be invited into groups, or for you or them to add to your/their friend list if they won't play with you in the first place.
He is an 17k CW and he didnt mention for which dungeon he was searching a group. How to find friends till you reach 17k? Srly? So he/she was never in CN/MSP/eTOS/eLOL or any other dungeon where he/she played with other ppl and try to build an FL? I dont know why he/she cant find a group and i really dont care, because its really not my problem if an 17k!!!! CW is not capable to build a group for a dungeon. I never searched for a free spot in a group in PE. I made a lot groups in LFG, but i never searched for a spot only for me. If i form a rnd group, i search classes that i wanna have in that grp. Depending which dungeon i wanna go. I dont sit around and spamming "18k GWF is looking for dungeon x". If i wanna do a dungeon= i will build a group and i search for the classes i want. So dont write if the OP is some usual who is new in this game. You know thats not the story here.
I guess PE isn't a good place to start. Care to enlighten the OP where to go then?
Why should i enlight the OP how he/she will build a group for a dungeon? If i build a group i build them how i want. He/she got an 17k!! CW. I think with 17k no one should explain how to build a group or how you make your own FL. Why is this a problem of the game if some one cant form his/her own group?
LFG is elitist. That this entire point of this thread. If you are seriously disputing that, there isn't really anything more to say. You will have to work that out on your own.
As far as everything else, the devs have made some mistakes/suboptimal designs, sure. However the meta is made by players and enforced by players. If you chose to run with strangers, you are going to have satisfy their demands or you don't get in their groups. This has always been the case in LFG or any custom channel on the same focus. This is the thing that keeps non FOTM classes out of dungeons. The devs arent sitting in PE dictating who canrun what. That is entirely on the players.
If you want to play a non FOTM class, you need to find places that are accepting of your choice, not endlessly complain that no one wants you. This like beating your head against the ground and complaining you have a headache.
You have choices in this game. If you want to be a loner and never make connections, then you relegate yourself to being judged by whatever is deemed Best at the current time. There will always be a Meta and players will always enforce it in LFG or zerg channels or whatever.
It would be great if class balance were better, but in the end some classes are always going to be left out. There are 8 classes, best case 3 are left out. That is never going to change because balance will never be perfect.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Personally I have a great deal of empathy for players who feel limited in their options because of their class choices. Cryptic has a lot of work to do to shrink the performance gap among the classes, especially when it comes to performing the DPS role. And before a common argument resurfaces, no, it's not enough simply to be able to fill the role; an obvious and wide disparity in performance is enough to promote exclusion.
On the other hand, it's also on the players to make a reasonable effort at social interaction. Guilds exist in large part to bring players together in a way that isn't 100% ruled by the public lfg meta. I've seen posters in similar threads on these forums declare that they don't want to be in a guild while complaining loudly that complete strangers in public channels won't give them the time of day because of their class and/or item level.
There are a lot of improvements I would love to see on the developers' side of things *cough, make magical DPS more competitive, cough*, but players can help themselves a great deal simply by making connections, as pitshade suggests.
LFG is elitist. That this entire point of this thread. If you are seriously disputing that, there isn't really anything more to say. You will have to work that out on your own.
As far as everything else, the devs have made some mistakes/suboptimal designs, sure. However the meta is made by players and enforced by players. If you chose to run with strangers, you are going to have satisfy their demands or you don't get in their groups. This has always been the case in LFG or any custom channel on the same focus. This is the thing that keeps non FOTM classes out of dungeons. The devs arent sitting in PE dictating who canrun what. That is entirely on the players.
If you want to play a non FOTM class, you need to find places that are accepting of your choice, not endlessly complain that no one wants you. This like beating your head against the ground and complaining you have a headache.
You have choices in this game. If you want to be a loner and never make connections, then you relegate yourself to being judged by whatever is deemed Best at the current time. There will always be a Meta and players will always enforce it in LFG or zerg channels or whatever.
It would be great if class balance were better, but in the end some classes are always going to be left out. There are 8 classes, best case 3 are left out. That is never going to change because balance will never be perfect.
I agree with the majority of what you have said in this post - except for the elitist part, your definition is different to mine; and also that meta is borne from game design. But if you view /lfg as elitist, then are you saying almost everyone who has used /lfg now or in the past an elitist? People gotta start somewhere! No, I would rather think that people in /lfg do not have the same resources as a well established player might have. I view the 'elitist channels' (and I hate to use that word) are those that only accept a player based on their IL. Some channels are actually really quite good, and the OP might even get more success in getting into a group with the right channel, as they incorporate a far wider range of people, and at different timezones, than say, your average alliance.
I realise that you're trying to be helpful in showing the OP that you make your own groups (or find like minded people) when you want to run content. I agree with this. It takes time to build a good network, but it is worth it.
What is worrying though, is that the OP did make a complaint, but that is being dismissed because you and a few others have worked out ways to deal with it.
It also does not diminish the fact that there is a problem. The OP has a valid concern borne from frustration. Even though you may not experience it within your friends list or your alliance/guild, there are going to be people in a similar situation. By ignoring that there is a problem, and saying that it is only player behaviour is only one side of what is happening, and does nothing to improve the status quo.
I think it is important that those who do experience this, report it. Otherwise who else will listen? How else will change be made?
How do you even begin to meet other teams in order to be invited into groups, or for you or them to add to your/their friend list if they won't play with you in the first place.
He is an 17k CW and he didnt mention for which dungeon he was searching a group. How to find friends till you reach 17k? Srly? So he/she was never in CN/MSP/eTOS/eLOL or any other dungeon where he/she played with other ppl and try to build an FL? I dont know why he/she cant find a group and i really dont care, because its really not my problem if an 17k!!!! CW is not capable to build a group for a dungeon. I never searched for a free spot in a group in PE. I made a lot groups in LFG, but i never searched for a spot only for me. If i form a rnd group, i search classes that i wanna have in that grp. Depending which dungeon i wanna go. I dont sit around and spamming "18k GWF is looking for dungeon x". If i wanna do a dungeon= i will build a group and i search for the classes i want. So dont write if the OP is some usual who is new in this game. You know thats not the story here.
I guess PE isn't a good place to start. Care to enlighten the OP where to go then?
Why should i enlight the OP how he/she will build a group for a dungeon? If i build a group i build them how i want. He/she got an 17k!! CW. I think with 17k no one should explain how to build a group or how you make your own FL. Why is this a problem of the game if some one cant form his/her own group?
The first steps of being an elitist is pointing out someones item score and then saying they should behave or act a certain way.
How do you know how the player got to IL 17K? Was it through the same method you did, forming groups, meeting people, friending them, or did the OP 'luck' into a few items, and boost their IL up that way? We don't have that information, but I am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt here.
He came to the forum to report a concern. But your response was a little off tangent in bringing in 'elitist groups' and 'don't play the meta'. The OP wasn't trying to enforce the meta, the OP was a victim of the meta, yet you say his concern is "boring". That to me shows a serious lack of empathy. Who are we to judge if a player doesn't have a huge friend list to support them? Or perhaps the OP lives in a different timezone than the friends he could run with. Perhaps his friends are offline. Perhaps his friends are all CWs - that last bit a joke by the way, most people I know have parked their CW and play other classes.
I would also support the idea of forming a good friends list, and a good guild/alliance makes a huge difference in enjoying the game. But that in itself it does nothing, and provides no insight, of what is currently wrong and why it is like this. You cannot ignore that the game design plays a crucial role in this. The game design and the meta: they are both sides of the same coin.
> @vordayn said: > > I think it is important that those who do experience this, report it. Otherwise who else will listen? How else will change be made? >
The issue has existed since Beta, before LFG was split off from Zone chat. If there is a way to fix this that doesn't simply take choice away from all players, it doesn't seem to have ever been found. If a problem can't be fixed, the answer is educating people on how to remove themselves from it.
The devs, ultimately are responsible for how the game plays out, but simply pointing the finger at them and demanding a fix isn't helpful to the game or the affected players. No matter mow much effort they put into addressing class imbalance, the people who only run the meta will continue to do so.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
The devs are ultimately responsible for how the game plays out. And being they have stated they want a 1 Tank, 3 DPS, 1 Healer the only real option they would have to enforce that wish is to make every new dungeon they add to allow only that type of team. Until they come out with an even newer one at which time it could then be ran like all the others. I do not think you will see them doing that however .Would be better to design more than one dungeon like example only say Demo. Normal, Expert. Also saw a tarrot card idea that could be used on all dungeons to set the difficult to the teams liking scaling the difficulty and rewards as well. Only time will tell if and what they shall do..No real harm pointing out that they do still have much work to do on that issue. Even if it is only to reach their own stated goal.
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
I think it is important that those who do experience this, report it. Otherwise who else will listen? How else will change be made?
Do you really think that they're unaware, and need people to report it? Do you think they haven't had enough time to address it? Do you think they don't have the levers to make the adjustments? The evidence for this this is a clear "No".
What I've been trying to say, vordayn, is that this is the consequence of very deliberate decisions by the DEVs - a clear long term bias towards the GFW for DPS and the DC for support, sending a clear message to players that they can safely invest real money into these classes, for a great playing experience and clear access to the best drops and gear in latest content. I've been trying to show you that the DEVs are very aware of the extreme bias in class distribution for new content end-game runs, are very capable of easily making class balancing changes, but for business reasons are chosing to maintain the status quo. When was the last time the DEVs said anything about their attempts to balance classes? They can't make a public comment on this issue without inviting a storm of criticism that they can't defend.
If marketing tells the DEVs to send a clear signal to players that they can safely invest real money into certain classes for real long term (permanent?) benefit, then that's it. The technical people have to implement it, and do their best to dodge the issue in all communications. The great part about this is that the players themselves take care of the DEVs problem for them. Those that are are enjoying the benefits of the bias pop up in situations like this, talking about how bad nerfs are, about how "they don't see a problem", about how "DPS is fine", about how CWs had it too good 4 years ago, and about how you're going about it all wrong in who you choose to play with and how you form parties. All these things have enough of an element of truth to them, to make it very difficult to address a very real problem with disadvantaged classes.
Seriously, you're wasting your time. This is why I bother to post here. Not to encourage the DEVs to make changes, but to try and warn players of the futility of grinding their butts off, day after day, vainly hoping that it will make sense "when the DEVs finally get around to fixing my class". The nature of massive grind for slightly better gear is that it makes sense when you stay on the edge of top viability for new runs, but makes no sense when you're a disadvantaged class worth 45% of a clearly better class. Why grind your butt off to reach 42% ? Ain't gonna happen.
Wow, a lot of heart in this thread. "I don't have a problem, so it's not a problem." Keepin' it classy! Players who play DC, OP, GF, and GWF telling the rest of us it's a problem with us because we either don't play one of those classes or because we're not prolific extroverts. I think it's really more a matter of them not wanting any competition because they've got it so gravy right now. They don't want to share with the other children. They also revel in CWs being in the gutter now. We apparently deserve to never have fun again because we were good once. Boo hoo hoo.
@lukejones77 , I think you're probably right about this being deliberate, but I also agree with @vordayn that people should keep speaking up about it. Even if complaints fall on deaf dev ears, other people still see it so they know they're not alone, try to find ways to not be victimized by it as badly, choose to not keep chasing after a mirage (as you suggest and I have done), and it also doesn't let the devs totally get away with it. I think you calling out the scam is also very helpful.
Also, if enough people complain enough, they may eventually fear (or realize) that their strategy is costing them more than they're gaining. This is creating a toxic environment where a lot of people are losing motivation to even bother anymore, and that's not good for anybody.
---
Just in case it's not a conspiracy, for my own 2 coppers, 1.) change buffs to add instead of multiply and 2.) add (normal) versions of all the later (master) dungeons and trials with reduced rewards. How can you get experience running one of those if you never get to experience it?
I can't entirely dismiss lukejones77's argument since this game IS a business, and it would not surprise me in the least if business concerns factored into their design choices, even down to class balance.
On the other hand, DCs were worthless a few years ago, and GWFs were once perceived as disadvantaged, so I don't see why the pendulum might not swing at least slightly in the favor of other classes. It's also not just a GWF or DC entitlement issue. GWF, GF, TR, and HR are all consistently powerful in boss DPS and benefit hugely from multiplicative buff stacking from self and from party buffs. Devo OP is a staple support, and even Templock has become more favored (I'm reasonably sure that most players actually have no idea what it really does or how it does it, but they want it nonetheless).
The big issue for me is that CW is a comparatively weak HDPS and a worse support. The MoFs who try to go full debuff and throw their DPS out the window are usually not pulling their weight (not to mention that most of them are running Renegade regardless of whether or not the party needs their CA buff), and when you have CW as your main DPS, you know that could give a similarly skilled player one of the other DPS classes with similar equipment and have them contribute more. SW is in a similar boat except when they go buglock, but at least Templock is a powerful jack-of-all-trades support option.
Even if the dev team is reluctant to reign in the more consistently powerful and popular DPS classes, they could reasonably spare some attention to improving those that consistently underperform.
> I think it is important that those who do experience this, report it. Otherwise who else will listen? How else will change be made?
>
The issue has existed since Beta, before LFG was split off from Zone chat. If there is a way to fix this that doesn't simply take choice away from all players, it doesn't seem to have ever been found. If a problem can't be fixed, the answer is educating people on how to remove themselves from it.
The devs, ultimately are responsible for how the game plays out, but simply pointing the finger at them and demanding a fix isn't helpful to the game or the affected players. No matter mow much effort they put into addressing class imbalance, the people who only run the meta will continue to do so.
So how should the OP have approached this issue? Not said anything or reported anything to the forums?
Instead, there are a few players on this forum who are instead pointing the finger at the OP demanding they fix their behaviour. Do you see the irony here?
I think it is important that those who do experience this, report it. Otherwise who else will listen? How else will change be made?
Do you really think that they're unaware, and need people to report it? Do you think they haven't had enough time to address it? Do you think they don't have the levers to make the adjustments? The evidence for this this is a clear "No".
What I've been trying to say, vordayn, is that this is the consequence of very deliberate decisions by the DEVs - a clear long term bias towards the GFW for DPS and the DC for support, sending a clear message to players that they can safely invest real money into these classes, for a great playing experience and clear access to the best drops and gear in latest content. I've been trying to show you that the DEVs are very aware of the extreme bias in class distribution for new content end-game runs, are very capable of easily making class balancing changes, but for business reasons are chosing to maintain the status quo. When was the last time the DEVs said anything about their attempts to balance classes? They can't make a public comment on this issue without inviting a storm of criticism that they can't defend.
If marketing tells the DEVs to send a clear signal to players that they can safely invest real money into certain classes for real long term (permanent?) benefit, then that's it. The technical people have to implement it, and do their best to dodge the issue in all communications. The great part about this is that the players themselves take care of the DEVs problem for them. Those that are are enjoying the benefits of the bias pop up in situations like this, talking about how bad nerfs are, about how "they don't see a problem", about how "DPS is fine", about how CWs had it too good 4 years ago, and about how you're going about it all wrong in who you choose to play with and how you form parties. All these things have enough of an element of truth to them, to make it very difficult to address a very real problem with disadvantaged classes.
Seriously, you're wasting your time. This is why I bother to post here. Not to encourage the DEVs to make changes, but to try and warn players of the futility of grinding their butts off, day after day, vainly hoping that it will make sense "when the DEVs finally get around to fixing my class". The nature of massive grind for slightly better gear is that it makes sense when you stay on the edge of top viability for new runs, but makes no sense when you're a disadvantaged class worth 45% of a clearly better class. Why grind your butt off to reach 42% ? Ain't gonna happen.
A part of me initially was hoping for a change, but I'm really unsure what is happening for a number of mods now. I have two hypotheses: 1) The Devs are not aware, which then speaks volumes about their understanding of the game, or 2) The Devs are aware and deliberately maintain the status quo favouring certain classes and not others, which then speaks volumes about their bias. Whether this is rooted in business decisions, I would not put it entirely past them; they are remarkably silent on this issue, which does nothing to temper my skepticism. The people who blindly protect the devs and say that it isn't their issue I obviously scratch my head at in disbelief. As @pterias said, they are probably defending the status quo as it favours their class.
If the second hypothesis is correct, then it isn't a personal issue, but rather a business one, as you have stated @lukejones77. While a large majority of players used to be CWs, by changing the hierarchy of classes, they could force people who seek the FOTM class to change class, thus spend more time upgrading, doing campaigns etc. Similar to how weapon and armor enchants change in superiority, this may be a deliberate action to promote certain players' behaviour. Their silence does nothing to change this view.
Certain things they have done, such as the nerf to storm spell, despite pages and pages of feedback against this, support your claim. Whereas certain skills or abilities, like Shadow of Demise, Prominence, Aura of Courage, which provide sometimes over 30% of a player's damage (yes it has been reported multiple times with ACT) remains unchecked. So there is some definite wilful hypocrisy, or ignorance there. These actions have shown me they do things without really caring about their player constituents. It is worrying to be playing a game with developers like this.
I suppose I have a high threshold for tolerating HAMSTER, and usually do give people the benefit of the doubt, but I do agree lukejones, and my tolerance is wearing thin.
So how should the OP have approached this issue? Not said anything or reported anything to the forums?
Instead, there are a few players on this forum who are instead pointing the finger at the OP demanding they fix their behaviour. Do you see the irony here?
I have given my opinion on what the OP and other players who don't like the situation described, should do. Repeatedly.
"If a problem can't be fixed, the answer is educating people on how to remove themselves from it."
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
I think it is important that those who do experience this, report it. Otherwise who else will listen? How else will change be made?
Do you really think that they're unaware, and need people to report it? Do you think they haven't had enough time to address it? Do you think they don't have the levers to make the adjustments? The evidence for this this is a clear "No".
What I've been trying to say, vordayn, is that this is the consequence of very deliberate decisions by the DEVs - a clear long term bias towards the GFW for DPS and the DC for support, sending a clear message to players that they can safely invest real money into these classes, for a great playing experience and clear access to the best drops and gear in latest content. I've been trying to show you that the DEVs are very aware of the extreme bias in class distribution for new content end-game runs, are very capable of easily making class balancing changes, but for business reasons are chosing to maintain the status quo. When was the last time the DEVs said anything about their attempts to balance classes? They can't make a public comment on this issue without inviting a storm of criticism that they can't defend.
If marketing tells the DEVs to send a clear signal to players that they can safely invest real money into certain classes for real long term (permanent?) benefit, then that's it. The technical people have to implement it, and do their best to dodge the issue in all communications. The great part about this is that the players themselves take care of the DEVs problem for them. Those that are are enjoying the benefits of the bias pop up in situations like this, talking about how bad nerfs are, about how "they don't see a problem", about how "DPS is fine", about how CWs had it too good 4 years ago, and about how you're going about it all wrong in who you choose to play with and how you form parties. All these things have enough of an element of truth to them, to make it very difficult to address a very real problem with disadvantaged classes.
Seriously, you're wasting your time. This is why I bother to post here. Not to encourage the DEVs to make changes, but to try and warn players of the futility of grinding their butts off, day after day, vainly hoping that it will make sense "when the DEVs finally get around to fixing my class". The nature of massive grind for slightly better gear is that it makes sense when you stay on the edge of top viability for new runs, but makes no sense when you're a disadvantaged class worth 45% of a clearly better class. Why grind your butt off to reach 42% ? Ain't gonna happen.
I am contemplating whether to write to Wizards of the Coast to tell them at how deplorable a state their "Wizard" is in this game. Just the facts, mind.
As it stands, the game does an incredible disservice to the name and all that a Wizard entails.
So how should the OP have approached this issue? Not said anything or reported anything to the forums?
Instead, there are a few players on this forum who are instead pointing the finger at the OP demanding they fix their behaviour. Do you see the irony here?
I have given my opinion on what the OP and other players who don't like the situation described, should do. Repeatedly.
"If a problem can't be fixed, the answer is educating people on how to remove themselves from it."
Removing somebody from a problem doesn't fix it, it just perpetuates the status quo.
Why should i know that? Why does it matter? 17 K GS is such an high GS that he/she must know how to make groups.
I never said he/she bores me. I said the whole discussion is boring because we have so many threads about the same "issue" and everytime when someone like me said how to "avoid" this ( build your own group, try to make a good FL) users like you try to push me in a corner " lack of empathy...elitist....". I didnt say he/she should be running only with elitist groups. I said she/he should know how to build groups because his/her GS isnt the ususal GS from a new player. She/he should know how to build groups. And now i have to show some lack of respect because all you try is to provoke ppl: Im outta here. Its boring and you arent interested at all in other peoples opinion. You are just trying to provoke ppl. So i dont care what you have to say and im out of this thread.
Spide
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited July 2018
Let's step back and look at the basic problem, which is the discrepancy between how many players want to play certain classes and how much those classes are "wanted" in some sense.
The fact is that many players like to see big damage numbers and love to play one of the DPS classes. The "1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS" group composition might even correspond fairly well to the relative popularity of the various classes, but the "optimal" groups for end-game content are more like "1 DPS and 4 buffers".
This discrepancy results in "supply" exceeding "demand" for DPSers.
Combine that with the fact that when running with strangers, most players just want a smooth, fast run. Sure, when running with friends, you can take it slow, explore side passages and such, but when you run with strangers you want to pick a group that looks like it can complete the content easily and quickly.
If you do not know the people you run with, the only information you have is their IL and gear. The "losers" so to speak, will be DPSers, who are good enough to run the content, but are not wanted because there is someone better geared grabbing the spot.
A 16K DC or OP will have no problem getting into a group, but a 16K CW or even a GWF/HR? No ... there will be a 17K one available.
So, the losers are the "good, but not the absolutely best" DPSers.
Why should i know that? Why does it matter? 17 K GS is such an high GS that he/she must know how to make groups.
I never said he/she bores me. I said the whole discussion is boring because we have so many threads about the same "issue" and everytime when someone like me said how to "avoid" this ( build your own group, try to make a good FL) users like you try to push me in a corner " lack of empathy...elitist....". I didnt say he/she should be running only with elitist groups. I said she/he should know how to build groups because his/her GS isnt the ususal GS from a new player. She/he should know how to build groups. And now i have to show some lack of respect because all you try is to provoke ppl: Im outta here. Its boring and you arent interested at all in other peoples opinion. You are just trying to provoke ppl. So i dont care what you have to say and im out of this thread.
Spide
Then please don't make a wrong assumption next time by just looking at the title and not the content of the post.
I read your threads carefully, and I found things which were inconsistent and they were shown to you. If you disagree with that, then fine.
You came into a thread, offered your opinions, started by saying "it's boring" and the "OP must be doing something wrong" and then expect no one to come to the OP's defense? No, I will not abide by that.
Furthermore, I am sorry I that have made you feel provoked and/or disrespected. When I get too involved in an argument, I know it is also time to step back, so yeah you are doing a pretty mature thing to step back. I do not want this to be a personal issue, but rather a discussion of both our perspectives. Of which, I do agree the OP can look for guilds/alliances/friends and perhaps channels to feel less frustrated, but I do sincerely believe the OP's frustration is borne of something which is actually happening in the Neverwinterverse currently.
A part of me initially was hoping for a change, but I'm really unsure what is happening for a number of mods now. I have two hypotheses: 1) The Devs are not aware, which then speaks volumes about their understanding of the game, or 2) The Devs are aware and deliberately maintain the status quo favouring certain classes and not others, which then speaks volumes about their bias. Whether this is rooted in business decisions, I would not put it entirely past them; they are remarkably silent on this issue, which does nothing to temper my skepticism. The people who blindly protect the devs and say that it isn't their issue I obviously scratch my head at in disbelief. As @pterias said, they are probably defending the status quo as it favours their class.
So you're betting on ignorance and/or incompetence, and I'm betting on deliberate class prejudice for financial gain.
Alright then! I'm over caring enough to have a little fun. I'll "Game of Thrones" this - Little Finger style. As Little Finger, I'll try to understand motives, assuming the worst for what they do, and see how well my reason explains what they do.
I'll imagine that, as the DEV, I could sell out the other classes, and pick one that players would be happy to spend real money on, secure in the knowledge that nerfs will not come, and their investment will give them the best experience, runs, rewards, gear, desirability for party inclusion. I'll make it clearly understood that they are the special class!
How would I do that? Well, I would: - Pick a DPS class. It's clear that the psychology of most players is for dealing the DPS rather than support it. - I would make that class do lots of damage. Easily. They'll want to be top on the PainGiver chart - by a large margin. - I would stack the class full of self-buffing feats. They'll want as much damage as possible to come from themselves, without boosting others. - I would make them fast to charge into battle, before the rest of the party can get there. They can wipe out most, if not all, of the PainGiver chart enhancing damage. You might think that this defeats the heart of cooperative MMO party play, but we have a free-to-play business model to support. - I would also make them an unstoppable force - the best toughness of all the DPS classes, including immunity to control effects, faster attacks, temporary hitpoints and damage resistance! You might think that breaks every fundamental rule of MMO class design, but just watch me get away with it - Here's my clincher ... I'm going to make the class so easy to play, that if they spend enough money to gear up fully, they can easily smash out at-wills well in excess of 1/4 million damage per second. Just bash those at-will keys! Truly! I'm going to do that. Just watch them in the upcoming Epic Demogorgon module, where the biggest problem will be other classes running back to home base to get their encounter powers working again, and our special class just keeps bashing those at-will mouse buttons ) - Now, you might think the classes will feel victimized, but this is where I'm really clever. I'm going to make sure that all the support classes are great at giving this guy buffs and debuffs. He's gonna love the support classes - they'll make him look like a God! They'll be happy because they'll be constantly called into runs once we make the content pretty tough (module 12). This God Class we've made will synergise with them giving them what they want too. Even though the support players are generally supportive psychologically, I'll bet they end up suggesting to the whining players of other classes "Just go form your own party". Yeah, most of the other DPS class players will give up and play the God DPS class, or play support. Those who insist on continuning sticking with the other DPS classes won't even find support from their fellow players!
I got a few more, but enough text. How did I do? Does this class I've described remind you of anything that has actually happened in Neverwinter????
Look, after the mod 6 debacle, and vast emptying of the playerbase, the DEVs declared a "no nerfs" status, with the GWF way ahead of other classes. I'm sure that by mod 8, they noticed that people had begun to trust investment in GWFs, and spend real money on it. Everything since then suggests that it became part of the free-to-play business model.
I can gear up any of my invoking chars near 17k IL by buying campaign tokens and transferring gear, even tough I got no clue how to play that class, not that I would waste this ammount of AD. Or simply buy an endgame-account. I think that IL does not tell a lot about an unknown player.
Honestly I don't think balance will ever be achieved in this game, only thinking of that new weapon enchant and synergy with one class over others. But balance should be a goal and I think devs could care a bit more.
You came into a thread, offered your opinions, started by saying "it's boring" and the "OP must be doing something wrong"
Can you quote that? You know, thats why i said you only try to provoke. I never said he/she does something wrong. I said that the OP with 17k is not a new player and should know with that GS how to build a group. Darn it...i siad im out. Now for real ^^
> @vordayn said: > So how should the OP have approached this issue? Not said anything or reported anything to the forums? > > Instead, there are a few players on this forum who are instead pointing the finger at the OP demanding they fix their behaviour. Do you see the irony here? > > I have given my opinion on what the OP and other players who don't like the situation described, should do. Repeatedly. > > "If a problem can't be fixed, the answer is educating people on how to remove themselves from it." > > Removing somebody from a problem doesn't fix it, it just perpetuates the status quo. > I am only going to restate this once more. There is no Fix to the situation the OP describes. It is self perpetuating and eternal. There will never be perfect class balance... ever. So there will always be an idea of the optimal group. That group must at best exclude 3 classes.
People in LFG and similar channels are there to build meta groups. They for the most part, are not interested in helping others. They are just filling out their list of classes. So anyone not on that list is going to suffer the same issue described in the OP. The players forming these groups are not going to change. They are not going to accept almost as good.
There will always be a meta and some will always be excluded from it. To some degree or another, every ome of the 8 classes has suffered from this. Even when there were only 5 classes, it occurred.
> And did you just quote yourself?
Why yes, I did. You asked what I thought the OP should do so I quoted it to save you the trouble of scrolling up. The OP should take the advice offered by myself and others: find a better place and means to get groups.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
I am only going to restate this once more. There is no Fix to the situation the OP describes. It is self perpetuating and eternal. There will never be perfect class balance... ever. So there will always be an idea of the optimal group. That group must at best exclude 3 classes.
People in LFG and similar channels are there to build meta groups. They for the most part, are not interested in helping others. They are just filling out their list of classes. So anyone not on that list is going to suffer the same issue described in the OP. The players forming these groups are not going to change. They are not going to accept almost as good.
There will always be a meta and some will always be excluded from it. To some degree or another, every ome of the 8 classes has suffered from this. Even when there were only 5 classes, it occurred.
I think it has gotten worse since Mod 12. I took a break just before Tomb of the Nine Gods was unlocked, and came back just before mod 13.
Before I took a break, I was still running my SS CW for content, and had little trouble finding groups. Let me tell you what happened since then: SS nerf, MoF buff and lightning enchantment changes. That's what. People clued on that the MoF was better than the SS in party damage (and compounded by the stupid Orcus buff mechanic in Tong), but took a hit to their personal DPS in running with this paragon. On the same change, the SS became more underpowered for a large majority of mages with the changes to storm spell (the critical spot being >85% critical chance), not to mention the nerf of the off-hand ability. At the same time lightning enchantment was removed to proc on many of the CWs DoT and channeling powers. Steal Time, a channeling power, still doesn't proc lightning as a channeling power should, whereas melee powers like GWFs can proc it multiple times per second! These multiple changes, worked in a short space of time, effected the wrecking ball against a once fine class to begin with. Was the CW overpowered before mod 12? No.
So yes, there was a change to the mechanics of the class and how it procced certain enchantments which has led to the situation you are seeing now. While there is a cause there must be a fix, otherwise, how did we get here in the first place?
Comments
And i never ran CR with this so called "meta group". This thread is one of thousands "I try to run rnd and i cant find a party. Instead of looking in my guild or building a good FL, i gonna blame cryptic for it".
Its just boring....
Running around with your exclusive friends list, or top tier guild, is akin to an ostrich hiding it's head in the sand - not acknowledging that there was (and is) a problem for the OP, and remains a problem for many people i.e. your "one of thousands", just shows your lack of empathy.
The context here is new endgame content where you get great AD value drops, latest gear etc - not running the old T2 stuff where you grind for a tiny small % increase.
Firstly party places are dominated by support, leaving far fewer places than design intended (3DPS/1tank/1healer should average to 60% of players running tough end-game content from DPS classes).
It's not necessarily obvious as you form parties, but the statistical outcome and general feel if you're one of the suffering classes, is really clear.
Secondly, and most importantly, there are very large gaps between the DPS capability across the range of DPS classes, leading to a situation where some DPS classes do very, very well, and others are badly discriminated against. Being a particular DPS class is a massive advantage when grabbing the DPS spot.
That's an issue.
Maybe you can enlight me and can explain what endgame in an mmoprg means? So if i play that so called endgame and i made all my work to get there and i wanna play with other ppl they are also wanna play endgame its MY lack of empathy because i play the game in the best and most effectively way?
Sounds strange, doesnt it?
P.S.:
You saw that i wrote i dont run meta groups? So its my lack of empathy if some one blames the game about his lack to find a group or a guild or making his own good FL to run endgame?? Stupid...
Maybe you should also read the content of the OP's post and not just the title. You know, the devil is in the details.
So, the OP said he was LFG in PE for a team. Now, a MMORPG, means that it is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. Where do you find other players? In Protector's Enclave (PE). But you say he should just stick with his friends? Oh, I dunno, how do you make friends if not in the most populous areas. Should he go to Blacklake district? Or maybe try a Random Queue and meet people there. Or maybe, just maybe, he should /LFG 'friends' in PE? Would that work?
How do you even begin to meet other teams in order to be invited into groups, or for you or them to add to your/their friend list if they won't play with you in the first place.
I guess PE isn't a good place to start. Care to enlighten the OP where to go then?
How to find friends till you reach 17k? Srly? So he/she was never in CN/MSP/eTOS/eLOL or any other dungeon where he/she played with other ppl and try to build an FL?
I dont know why he/she cant find a group and i really dont care, because its really not my problem if an 17k!!!! CW is not capable to build a group for a dungeon. I never searched for a free spot in a group in PE. I made a lot groups in LFG, but i never searched for a spot only for me. If i form a rnd group, i search classes that i wanna have in that grp. Depending which dungeon i wanna go. I dont sit around and spamming "18k GWF is looking for dungeon x". If i wanna do a dungeon= i will build a group and i search for the classes i want.
So dont write if the OP is some usual who is new in this game. You know thats not the story here. Why should i enlight the OP how he/she will build a group for a dungeon? If i build a group i build them how i want. He/she got an 17k!! CW. I think with 17k no one should explain how to build a group or how you make your own FL.
Why is this a problem of the game if some one cant form his/her own group?
As far as everything else, the devs have made some mistakes/suboptimal designs, sure. However the meta is made by players and enforced by players. If you chose to run with strangers, you are going to have satisfy their demands or you don't get in their groups. This has always been the case in LFG or any custom channel on the same focus. This is the thing that keeps non FOTM classes out of dungeons. The devs arent sitting in PE dictating who canrun what. That is entirely on the players.
If you want to play a non FOTM class, you need to find places that are accepting of your choice, not endlessly complain that no one wants you. This like beating your head against the ground and complaining you have a headache.
You have choices in this game. If you want to be a loner and never make connections, then you relegate yourself to being judged by whatever is deemed Best at the current time. There will always be a Meta and players will always enforce it in LFG or zerg channels or whatever.
It would be great if class balance were better, but in the end some classes are always going to be left out. There are 8 classes, best case 3 are left out. That is never going to change because balance will never be perfect.
On the other hand, it's also on the players to make a reasonable effort at social interaction. Guilds exist in large part to bring players together in a way that isn't 100% ruled by the public lfg meta. I've seen posters in similar threads on these forums declare that they don't want to be in a guild while complaining loudly that complete strangers in public channels won't give them the time of day because of their class and/or item level.
There are a lot of improvements I would love to see on the developers' side of things *cough, make magical DPS more competitive, cough*, but players can help themselves a great deal simply by making connections, as pitshade suggests.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I realise that you're trying to be helpful in showing the OP that you make your own groups (or find like minded people) when you want to run content. I agree with this. It takes time to build a good network, but it is worth it.
What is worrying though, is that the OP did make a complaint, but that is being dismissed because you and a few others have worked out ways to deal with it.
It also does not diminish the fact that there is a problem. The OP has a valid concern borne from frustration. Even though you may not experience it within your friends list or your alliance/guild, there are going to be people in a similar situation. By ignoring that there is a problem, and saying that it is only player behaviour is only one side of what is happening, and does nothing to improve the status quo.
I think it is important that those who do experience this, report it. Otherwise who else will listen? How else will change be made?
How do you know how the player got to IL 17K? Was it through the same method you did, forming groups, meeting people, friending them, or did the OP 'luck' into a few items, and boost their IL up that way? We don't have that information, but I am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt here.
He came to the forum to report a concern. But your response was a little off tangent in bringing in 'elitist groups' and 'don't play the meta'. The OP wasn't trying to enforce the meta, the OP was a victim of the meta, yet you say his concern is "boring". That to me shows a serious lack of empathy. Who are we to judge if a player doesn't have a huge friend list to support them? Or perhaps the OP lives in a different timezone than the friends he could run with. Perhaps his friends are offline. Perhaps his friends are all CWs - that last bit a joke by the way, most people I know have parked their CW and play other classes.
I would also support the idea of forming a good friends list, and a good guild/alliance makes a huge difference in enjoying the game. But that in itself it does nothing, and provides no insight, of what is currently wrong and why it is like this. You cannot ignore that the game design plays a crucial role in this. The game design and the meta: they are both sides of the same coin.
>
> I think it is important that those who do experience this, report it. Otherwise who else will listen? How else will change be made?
>
The issue has existed since Beta, before LFG was split off from Zone chat. If there is a way to fix this that doesn't simply take choice away from all players, it doesn't seem to have ever been found. If a problem can't be fixed, the answer is educating people on how to remove themselves from it.
The devs, ultimately are responsible for how the game plays out, but simply pointing the finger at them and demanding a fix isn't helpful to the game or the affected players. No matter mow much effort they put into addressing class imbalance, the people who only run the meta will continue to do so.
What I've been trying to say, vordayn, is that this is the consequence of very deliberate decisions by the DEVs - a clear long term bias towards the GFW for DPS and the DC for support, sending a clear message to players that they can safely invest real money into these classes, for a great playing experience and clear access to the best drops and gear in latest content.
I've been trying to show you that the DEVs are very aware of the extreme bias in class distribution for new content end-game runs, are very capable of easily making class balancing changes, but for business reasons are chosing to maintain the status quo.
When was the last time the DEVs said anything about their attempts to balance classes? They can't make a public comment on this issue without inviting a storm of criticism that they can't defend.
If marketing tells the DEVs to send a clear signal to players that they can safely invest real money into certain classes for real long term (permanent?) benefit, then that's it. The technical people have to implement it, and do their best to dodge the issue in all communications.
The great part about this is that the players themselves take care of the DEVs problem for them. Those that are are enjoying the benefits of the bias pop up in situations like this, talking about how bad nerfs are, about how "they don't see a problem", about how "DPS is fine", about how CWs had it too good 4 years ago, and about how you're going about it all wrong in who you choose to play with and how you form parties. All these things have enough of an element of truth to them, to make it very difficult to address a very real problem with disadvantaged classes.
Seriously, you're wasting your time.
This is why I bother to post here. Not to encourage the DEVs to make changes, but to try and warn players of the futility of grinding their butts off, day after day, vainly hoping that it will make sense "when the DEVs finally get around to fixing my class".
The nature of massive grind for slightly better gear is that it makes sense when you stay on the edge of top viability for new runs, but makes no sense when you're a disadvantaged class worth 45% of a clearly better class. Why grind your butt off to reach 42% ?
Ain't gonna happen.
@lukejones77 , I think you're probably right about this being deliberate, but I also agree with @vordayn that people should keep speaking up about it. Even if complaints fall on deaf dev ears, other people still see it so they know they're not alone, try to find ways to not be victimized by it as badly, choose to not keep chasing after a mirage (as you suggest and I have done), and it also doesn't let the devs totally get away with it. I think you calling out the scam is also very helpful.
Also, if enough people complain enough, they may eventually fear (or realize) that their strategy is costing them more than they're gaining. This is creating a toxic environment where a lot of people are losing motivation to even bother anymore, and that's not good for anybody.
---
Just in case it's not a conspiracy, for my own 2 coppers, 1.) change buffs to add instead of multiply and 2.) add (normal) versions of all the later (master) dungeons and trials with reduced rewards. How can you get experience running one of those if you never get to experience it?
On the other hand, DCs were worthless a few years ago, and GWFs were once perceived as disadvantaged, so I don't see why the pendulum might not swing at least slightly in the favor of other classes. It's also not just a GWF or DC entitlement issue. GWF, GF, TR, and HR are all consistently powerful in boss DPS and benefit hugely from multiplicative buff stacking from self and from party buffs. Devo OP is a staple support, and even Templock has become more favored (I'm reasonably sure that most players actually have no idea what it really does or how it does it, but they want it nonetheless).
The big issue for me is that CW is a comparatively weak HDPS and a worse support. The MoFs who try to go full debuff and throw their DPS out the window are usually not pulling their weight (not to mention that most of them are running Renegade regardless of whether or not the party needs their CA buff), and when you have CW as your main DPS, you know that could give a similarly skilled player one of the other DPS classes with similar equipment and have them contribute more. SW is in a similar boat except when they go buglock, but at least Templock is a powerful jack-of-all-trades support option.
Even if the dev team is reluctant to reign in the more consistently powerful and popular DPS classes, they could reasonably spare some attention to improving those that consistently underperform.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Instead, there are a few players on this forum who are instead pointing the finger at the OP demanding they fix their behaviour. Do you see the irony here?
If the second hypothesis is correct, then it isn't a personal issue, but rather a business one, as you have stated @lukejones77. While a large majority of players used to be CWs, by changing the hierarchy of classes, they could force people who seek the FOTM class to change class, thus spend more time upgrading, doing campaigns etc. Similar to how weapon and armor enchants change in superiority, this may be a deliberate action to promote certain players' behaviour. Their silence does nothing to change this view.
Certain things they have done, such as the nerf to storm spell, despite pages and pages of feedback against this, support your claim. Whereas certain skills or abilities, like Shadow of Demise, Prominence, Aura of Courage, which provide sometimes over 30% of a player's damage (yes it has been reported multiple times with ACT) remains unchecked. So there is some definite wilful hypocrisy, or ignorance there. These actions have shown me they do things without really caring about their player constituents. It is worrying to be playing a game with developers like this.
I suppose I have a high threshold for tolerating HAMSTER, and usually do give people the benefit of the doubt, but I do agree lukejones, and my tolerance is wearing thin.
"If a problem can't be fixed, the answer is educating people on how to remove themselves from it."
As it stands, the game does an incredible disservice to the name and all that a Wizard entails.
And did you just quote yourself?
I never said he/she bores me. I said the whole discussion is boring because we have so many threads about the same "issue" and everytime when someone like me said how to "avoid" this ( build your own group, try to make a good FL) users like you try to push me in a corner " lack of empathy...elitist....".
I didnt say he/she should be running only with elitist groups. I said she/he should know how to build groups because his/her GS isnt the ususal GS from a new player. She/he should know how to build groups.
And now i have to show some lack of respect because all you try is to provoke ppl:
Im outta here. Its boring and you arent interested at all in other peoples opinion. You are just trying to provoke ppl. So i dont care what you have to say and im out of this thread.
Spide
The fact is that many players like to see big damage numbers and love to play one of the DPS classes. The "1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS" group composition might even correspond fairly well to the relative popularity of the various classes, but the "optimal" groups for end-game content are more like "1 DPS and 4 buffers".
This discrepancy results in "supply" exceeding "demand" for DPSers.
Combine that with the fact that when running with strangers, most players just want a smooth, fast run. Sure, when running with friends, you can take it slow, explore side passages and such, but when you run with strangers you want to pick a group that looks like it can complete the content easily and quickly.
If you do not know the people you run with, the only information you have is their IL and gear. The "losers" so to speak, will be DPSers, who are good enough to run the content, but are not wanted because there is someone better geared grabbing the spot.
A 16K DC or OP will have no problem getting into a group, but a 16K CW or even a GWF/HR? No ... there will be a 17K one available.
So, the losers are the "good, but not the absolutely best" DPSers.
I read your threads carefully, and I found things which were inconsistent and they were shown to you. If you disagree with that, then fine.
You came into a thread, offered your opinions, started by saying "it's boring" and the "OP must be doing something wrong" and then expect no one to come to the OP's defense? No, I will not abide by that.
Furthermore, I am sorry I that have made you feel provoked and/or disrespected. When I get too involved in an argument, I know it is also time to step back, so yeah you are doing a pretty mature thing to step back. I do not want this to be a personal issue, but rather a discussion of both our perspectives. Of which, I do agree the OP can look for guilds/alliances/friends and perhaps channels to feel less frustrated, but I do sincerely believe the OP's frustration is borne of something which is actually happening in the Neverwinterverse currently.
Alright then! I'm over caring enough to have a little fun. I'll "Game of Thrones" this - Little Finger style.
As Little Finger, I'll try to understand motives, assuming the worst for what they do, and see how well my reason explains what they do.
I'll imagine that, as the DEV, I could sell out the other classes, and pick one that players would be happy to spend real money on, secure in the knowledge that nerfs will not come, and their investment will give them the best experience, runs, rewards, gear, desirability for party inclusion. I'll make it clearly understood that they are the special class!
How would I do that?
Well, I would:
- Pick a DPS class. It's clear that the psychology of most players is for dealing the DPS rather than support it.
- I would make that class do lots of damage. Easily. They'll want to be top on the PainGiver chart - by a large margin.
- I would stack the class full of self-buffing feats. They'll want as much damage as possible to come from themselves, without boosting others.
- I would make them fast to charge into battle, before the rest of the party can get there. They can wipe out most, if not all, of the PainGiver chart enhancing damage. You might think that this defeats the heart of cooperative MMO party play, but we have a free-to-play business model to support.
- I would also make them an unstoppable force - the best toughness of all the DPS classes, including immunity to control effects, faster attacks, temporary hitpoints and damage resistance! You might think that breaks every fundamental rule of MMO class design, but just watch me get away with it
- Here's my clincher ... I'm going to make the class so easy to play, that if they spend enough money to gear up fully, they can easily smash out at-wills well in excess of 1/4 million damage per second. Just bash those at-will keys! Truly! I'm going to do that. Just watch them in the upcoming Epic Demogorgon module, where the biggest problem will be other classes running back to home base to get their encounter powers working again, and our special class just keeps bashing those at-will mouse buttons
- Now, you might think the classes will feel victimized, but this is where I'm really clever. I'm going to make sure that all the support classes are great at giving this guy buffs and debuffs. He's gonna love the support classes - they'll make him look like a God! They'll be happy because they'll be constantly called into runs once we make the content pretty tough (module 12). This God Class we've made will synergise with them giving them what they want too. Even though the support players are generally supportive psychologically, I'll bet they end up suggesting to the whining players of other classes "Just go form your own party". Yeah, most of the other DPS class players will give up and play the God DPS class, or play support. Those who insist on continuning sticking with the other DPS classes won't even find support from their fellow players!
I got a few more, but enough text. How did I do? Does this class I've described remind you of anything that has actually happened in Neverwinter????
Look, after the mod 6 debacle, and vast emptying of the playerbase, the DEVs declared a "no nerfs" status, with the GWF way ahead of other classes. I'm sure that by mod 8, they noticed that people had begun to trust investment in GWFs, and spend real money on it. Everything since then suggests that it became part of the free-to-play business model.
I think that IL does not tell a lot about an unknown player.
Honestly I don't think balance will ever be achieved in this game, only thinking of that new weapon enchant and synergy with one class over others. But balance should be a goal and I think devs could care a bit more.
You know, thats why i said you only try to provoke. I never said he/she does something wrong. I said that the OP with 17k is not a new player and should know with that GS how to build a group.
Darn it...i siad im out. Now for real ^^
> So how should the OP have approached this issue? Not said anything or reported anything to the forums?
>
> Instead, there are a few players on this forum who are instead pointing the finger at the OP demanding they fix their behaviour. Do you see the irony here?
>
> I have given my opinion on what the OP and other players who don't like the situation described, should do. Repeatedly.
>
> "If a problem can't be fixed, the answer is educating people on how to remove themselves from it."
>
> Removing somebody from a problem doesn't fix it, it just perpetuates the status quo.
>
I am only going to restate this once more. There is no Fix to the situation the OP describes. It is self perpetuating and eternal. There will never be perfect class balance... ever. So there will always be an idea of the optimal group. That group must at best exclude 3 classes.
People in LFG and similar channels are there to build meta groups. They for the most part, are not interested in helping others. They are just filling out their list of classes. So anyone not on that list is going to suffer the same issue described in the OP. The players forming these groups are not going to change. They are not going to accept almost as good.
There will always be a meta and some will always be excluded from it. To some degree or another, every ome of the 8 classes has suffered from this. Even when there were only 5 classes, it occurred.
> And did you just quote yourself?
Why yes, I did. You asked what I thought the OP should do so I quoted it to save you the trouble of scrolling up. The OP should take the advice offered by myself and others: find a better place and means to get groups.
Before I took a break, I was still running my SS CW for content, and had little trouble finding groups. Let me tell you what happened since then: SS nerf, MoF buff and lightning enchantment changes. That's what. People clued on that the MoF was better than the SS in party damage (and compounded by the stupid Orcus buff mechanic in Tong), but took a hit to their personal DPS in running with this paragon. On the same change, the SS became more underpowered for a large majority of mages with the changes to storm spell (the critical spot being >85% critical chance), not to mention the nerf of the off-hand ability. At the same time lightning enchantment was removed to proc on many of the CWs DoT and channeling powers. Steal Time, a channeling power, still doesn't proc lightning as a channeling power should, whereas melee powers like GWFs can proc it multiple times per second! These multiple changes, worked in a short space of time, effected the wrecking ball against a once fine class to begin with. Was the CW overpowered before mod 12? No.
So yes, there was a change to the mechanics of the class and how it procced certain enchantments which has led to the situation you are seeing now. While there is a cause there must be a fix, otherwise, how did we get here in the first place?