What exactly are they hoping to achieve with the random queues?
If I do a random queue and get a dungeon I don't want to do, I will just switch characters. If it happens again, I will just log out. If it happens a lot I will stop bothering to log in. Design goal achieved?
@joe123thewayward the amount of RAD generated pre-Mod 12b is quite high and the time it takes to do so is quite low (around 15-20 minutes), also AFK farmers, bots and abusers ARE part of the current in-game issues and they will be effected by the RQ system. First and foremost players that simply rely on queues for AD are limiting their own AD gains themselves, there are PLENTY of ways to generate straight AD which isn't capped though since those other ways take more effort...
There are a number of broken things in the game and a number of players feel they should be fixed first before other things are introduced which is not a valid argument because if that were the case subsequent mods would seemingly not have been released. Class balance is MUCH more involved than tweaking the already present queue system. Whether classes being able to queue specific "roles" is implemented sooner rather than later (if ever) it doesn't have to be added before the RQ system, a number of fixes come after the fact.
Have you considered joining a half-decent guild or a half-decent zerg channel?
There was no timeframe given as to when the groups mentioned didn't get off the ground nor who was part of those groups yet a negative assumption > conclusion was apparently formed...
As previously mentioned, a number of players already manually run EToS for salvage (and will continue to do so whether they have limited play time or choose so), only difference with RQ will be no bonus AD for manual runs. Limited play time isn't necessarily a strong enough argument against the RQ system. Players playing for a few hours a week (7-12 hours?) for RAD would be making how much progress anyway? Really though, if the bulk of time spent by a player is running content for RAD what other progress is being made (campaigns, Guild contributions, refining, upgrading, etc.)?...
The possible differences in RAD pre vs post Most 12b are foreseeable, the argument from this end isn't that there won't be a difference, the argument is that the possible reduction in RAD post Mod 12b will produce less AD in the market as well as lower the AD generated by AFK farmers, bots and abusers. As long as those type of players find methods to feed off the game/other players changes like the RQ system will continue to be developed and effect legitimate players though not stating that the RQ system was to solely do any one particular thing. As previously mentioned, enchantment refinement going from unbound to BtA was in part if not largely because of abuse by AFK farmers, bots, and abusers, the negative players ruined it for everyone. Same thing with bonus RAD, players for the LONGEST have been manually selecting the easiest content, now manually selecting content won't grant bonus RAD, when players abuse things changes come, fair enough.
CT - around 6 mins CC - around 8 mins GWD - around 8 mins PKR - around 9 mins TFH - around 6 mins SC - around 10-15 (if that) TotS - around 5 mins CoK - around 13 mins
There's only about 2 leveling dungeons that may take higher ilvl characters around 10 minutes to complete, that's possibly 2 out of 8 making:
Random queue will be removing a large chunk of AD generation from the game
Of course it will, that's essentially part of the plan...
@freshstart If part of the reason for the RQ system is the amount of RAD (easily generated), a system that built upon the previous one would not have the same effects.
One of the problems that would have come with simply keeping the previous system and adding onto it, "tiering" queues and or adding guaranteed salvage is that a lot of players would just continue the same way they had been (picking the easiest content and overly benefiting).
- with RQ'ing being an "incentive" (being optional) while bonus RAD is still granted from manual queues players will stick with their old ways for the most part. - with "tiering" players would for the most part RQ for T1 and T2 and optionally T3 for a third daily bonus of RAD which would produce even more RAD in the economy. - with guaranteed salvage drops (espec6ially), players will just continue to manually queue for EToS (as they have been) but then will be getting even more RAD from salvage circumventing the measures to lower RAD generation from manual queues.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
the amount of RAD generated pre-Mod 12b is quite high and the time it takes to do so is quite low (around 15-20 minutes), also AFK farmers, bots and abusers ARE part of the current in-game issues and they will be effected by the RQ system. First and foremost players that simply rely on queues for AD are limiting their own AD gains themselves, there are PLENTY of ways to generate straight AD which isn't capped though since those other ways take more effort...
What exactly the assured ways to make AD ? Lets assume I can't watch the AH for market trends, so what exactly you propose to me except weeklies and doing dungeons
As previously mentioned, a number of players already manually run EToS for salvage (and will continue to do so whether they have limited play time or choose so), only difference with RQ will be no bonus AD for manual runs. Limited play time isn't necessarily a strong enough argument against the RQ system. Players playing for a few hours a week (7-12 hours?) for RAD would be making how much progress anyway? Really though, if the bulk of time spent by a player is running content for RAD what other progress is being made (campaigns, Guild contributions, refining, upgrading, etc.)?...
Is this argument amount to "They have limited time, so they don't deserve to progress anyway" ? Because it surely sounds like that to me. And from what is that conjecture about run times ? An eToS takes ~7 minutes on average. It takes 2 eToS per char to get opitmal value from it. The overhead of changing chars is about 2 minutes. If a player plays 2 hours per day, they can run 4 chars and progress in their campaign of choice.
Also where is that refining? Upgrading ? And what not come from? The refining is limited (so far) to double RP and upgrading is a click (or until wards, or patience runs out). Guild contribution takes 10-15minutes. Still within your specified time limit.
The possible differences in RAD pre vs post Most 12b are foreseeable, the argument from this end isn't that there won't be a difference, the argument is that the possible reduction in RAD post Mod 12b will produce less AD in the market as well as lower the AD generated by AFK farmers, bots and abusers. As long as those type of players find methods to feed off the game/other players changes like the RQ system will continue to be developed and effect legitimate players though not stating that the RQ system was to solely do any one particular thing. As previously mentioned, enchantment refinement going from unbound to BtA was in part if not largely because of abuse by AFK farmers, bots, and abusers, the negative players ruined it for everyone. Same thing with bonus RAD, players for the LONGEST have been manually selecting the easiest content, now manually selecting content won't grant bonus RAD, when players abuse things changes come, fair enough.
Where was the argument that RQ has any relation to bots? And how it's even relevant ?
A bot can run the leveling dungeons ad-nauseum, oh wait, that's us humans, the bots can run ad-infinitum, the bots will see an increase in net gain, simply because you can have infinite amount of bots, and now you get more for the first run and almost nothing for the second. Bots will swap char, while players have limited number of chars they are willing to maintain or do repetitive content on. For example I don't want to run leveling dungeons. Bot don't care, and do those already.
The publicized argument for RQ is to make Queues pop faster for non RQ people who just want to run content. Right now, those wont pop, so new players who are not established socially in guilds, alliances, custom channels (that do not exists on consoles) can't run anything. This happens especially due to two reasons, lack of support players, and lack of established players willing to pubQ. And obviously the intersection of said groups. RQ is meant to solve it, but making the dungeons account unlock will yield a better result than the entire RQ scheme in regards of support players (DC,OP,GF). The significant imbalance in ran content can be easily solved by adjusting the rewards per run-time. Or/and adding a daily /weekly bonus for less ran content (and possibly limiting it to public queue).
Lets be blunt, the bots will not be affected, they can run the leveling dungeons as much as they want. Established players will run mostly premades, because I don't want to get stuck in SP with who knows whom. It's one thing someone asks for help and I can't decide what to bring and if I'm capable to help, and another to be thrown into the abyss. So people mostly run leveling dungeons too, or premades. The queue pop on gear progress dungeons is not solved. Unless my premade of for example 3 people is confident in the ability to carry any other 2 through SP/FBI, which is plausible for a core of mains, and not a heap of alts like I would run t2 now.
And we get overall AD gain nerf.
The benefit from all of this, that if someone wants my alt DC, with account unlock, I can avtually help, but that goes under private queue where they farm gear. So overall we have a single helpful side effect. and it's not RQ but the dungeon unlock.
@micky1p00 anyone who has played for a considerable amount of time is inclined to know how to gain AD.
The argument amounts to limited play time arguably not being a sufficient argument against the RQ system (pretty much the same argument was made during the dungeon key change thread(s)).
Players only being able to play for around an hour a session was brought up so the questions about progress were made. Also someone stated that many of the leveling dungeons take 3-4 times as much as another queue (5 minutes) so the queues were ran, timed and noted.
The various points of progress were brought up asking how much progress a limited time player would be making (campaigns, Guild contributions, refining > refinement item collecting/upgrading, etc.), with it taking pretty much an hour to run RAD and assuming Influence for a Guild, there isn't much time to run daily campaign quests...
While it's certainly true that there is an added benefit of this feature making it significantly harder to farm AD from dungeons with bots
AFK farmers, bots and abusers are mentioned together because they all contribute to various changes to the game, in other words the various abuses of the game helped garner changes such as the RQ (players manually running the easiest content for RAD, bots being scripted due to the ease of the content, AFK farmers leeching skirmishes, etc.). Only mentioning bots in your argument doesn't negate the existence and actions of the other (AFK farmers, abusers).
The results of the RQ will be presented in due time, there are seemingly a lot of psychics that know exactly how and what will happen...
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I'm actually kind of looking forward to the change. The quality of alts running eToS and eGWD is dropping by the day.
Yesterday, my buff/dps DC finished eGWD as top paingiver (wut?). Today I had to leave a eGWD run because after the first boss, my DC had 40M dps, and the three dps toons don't even have double digit million combined. Sorry, I can't carry like that.
And I'm seeing lots of toons sporting event artifacts, or even empty artifact slots.
I guess who can blame them for queuing eToS. So easy to find carries now. Do two quick runs and get max daily RAD, and some left over for rainy days. Rinse and repeat on all their trashy alts.
I just want to get the last shirt I need from eGWD before RQ.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The argument amounts to limited play time arguably not being a sufficient argument against the RQ system (pretty much the same argument was made during the dungeon key change thread(s)).
Players only being able to play for around an hour a session was brought up so the questions about progress were made. Also someone stated that many of the leveling dungeons take 3-4 times as much as another queue (5 minutes) so the queues were ran, timed and noted.
The various points of progress were brought up asking how much progress a limited time player would be making (campaigns, Guild contributions, refining > refinement item collecting/upgrading, etc.), with it taking pretty much an hour to run RAD and assuming Influence for a Guild, there isn't much time to run daily campaign quests...
What is YOUR point ? Or how is this reply to mine ?
AFK farmers, bots and abusers are mentioned together because they all contribute to various changes to the game, in other words the various abuses of the game helped garner changes such as the RQ (players manually running the easiest content for RAD, bots being scripted due to the ease of the content, AFK farmers leeching skirmishes, etc.). Only mentioning bots in your argument doesn't negate the existence and actions of the other (AFK farmers, abusers).
Did you just put people that run the easiest content as abusers, and into the same group as bots, and AFK farmers ?
The results of the RQ will be presented in due time, there are seemingly a lot of psychics that know exactly how and what will happen...
This is not a Shakespeare play. Nor 'rocket science'. If you make some point, well, make it, back with some logic, and maybe we will be convinced or counter it.
3
therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
@joe123thewayward the amount of RAD generated pre-Mod 12b is quite high and the time it takes to do so is quite low (around 15-20 minutes), also AFK farmers, bots and abusers ARE part of the current in-game issues and they will be effected by the RQ system. First and foremost players that simply rely on queues for AD are limiting their own AD gains themselves, there are PLENTY of ways to generate straight AD which isn't capped though since those other ways take more effort...
There is a big difference between "generating" AD and personally "gaining" AD. As far as generating AD goes, you are wrong. Aside from the daily reward of AD for 2xdungeon/skirmish/PvP and the AD from salvaging there is no other way to GENERATE AD afaik.
If you think of trading (via AH or one-on-one) when you speak of "plenty ways", then you are right, but that does not generate AD, it only transfers EXISTING, already generated AD from one acoount to another. And I might be wrong, but I do not think that the devs have a problem with the latter, but more with the automated generation of AD (bots). Because simply transferring existing AD does not hurt the economy at all, but uncontrolled generation of AD does.
So 30 pages of replies and only maybe 1 enthusiastic reply of yes I love this change. The rest is people telling the devs good idea, bad implementation.
Devs response: deal with it. Nice way to listen to your customer base.
Precisely. But that's what is going on almost every feedback thread unfortunatly, except maybe the PVP changes one that has more interaction with the devs.
The implementation of this random queue is awful. It doesn't consider the time and the will players have to run, which basically is the one and only thing they have to consider. - I have 15 min of playtime, would I random queue for epic dungeon? Well no because i can end up in MSP that can take hours in a random group, and is mostly going to fail. - I have hours of playtime, would I random queue for epic dungeon? Well no because i can end up in one that i don't want to run, or I don't have the campaign key for, or in a failing group that is going to waste my time. All that for what, to get back the AD you deleted from the normal queue? No thanks.
So you're simply lowering in a HUGE amount the generated AD, and in the same module, are going to increase by a HUGE amount the AD needed to simply get back the power we had. What could possibly go wrong?
For me it's simple, i won't even bother playing alts anymore, back on playing ONE character. I won't be able to random skirmish with the alts and i wouldn't do that because of the very long IG. So bye to the Master of the Hunt, i will truly miss you. With a bit of luck, the random leveling dungeon won't take more time that the 2 leveling Temple of Spider that i do with the alts, but then again i will lose AD.
So after the VERY APPRECIATED step forward on alts play, with better gear easily available and account bound, with easy craftable artifact weapons, with the future campaign boost, this huge loss of AD seems like three steps backward on alt-friendly game, meaning diversity of gameplay, experience.
@micky1p00 You quoted posts from this end, responded, yet when you received a coherent response your negative stance against the RQ system seemingly didn't allow you to receive it. People often read the forums to respond rather than actually engage in a topic.
Have already made a number of points in this thread and provided supporting information as well, what tends to happen though is pretty much anyone that isn't on the negative nancy bandwagon when it comes to proposed changes gets treated like an enemy.
@micky1p00 You quoted posts from this end, responded, yet when you received a coherent response your negative stance against the RQ system seemingly didn't allow you to receive it. People often read the forums to respond rather than actually engage in a topic.
Have already made a number of points in this thread and provided supporting information as well, what tends to happen though is pretty much anyone that isn't on the negative nancy bandwagon when it comes to proposed changes gets treated like an enemy.
Will simply state this, anytime a character receives AD and that same amount of AD is not deducted from somewhere else AD is being generated.
Apparently staff has a problem with players getting considerable amounts of AD from manually queuing easy content.
I've asked you a simple question. You claim that there are plenty of AD sources except dungeons. What are they. And it is you, who has the audacity to call people who run the 2 dungeons abusers.
I've read this entire thread, and yet to see your actual bottom line point. Nor actual coherent response to issues brought up.
So lets clear things up:
1. What are the other plenty of ways that we generate AD from ? I remember only of dungeons (by dungeons I refer to all queueable content, including trials for example), and ~3 weeklies, but enlighten me. If you wrote it already, I apologize, I've missed it, please quote it again. 2. How is the RQ detrimental to bots? We can safely assume 2 conditions, there is no number limit on bots, and they can run leveling dungeons (both already known and not new). 3. Comparing to 2xeToS, for 15min per char. Will I make more or less ? AD/time. 4. Will RQ solve the stated problem of queue pop in a timely fashion? Please consider here, if people will be inclined to gamble on FBI/SP without a premade or not, especially on less geared alts.
I don't mind people bringing whatever position they want, but please if you want to make a point, make it and back it. modus ponens is a great thing, need more of it.
It was not long ago that the majority of people thought that the world was flat. Only about 500 years ago, which in our history, is not very long.
Every time a comet passes by the earth there are a considerable number of people that think it is the end of times,
When people buy stocks, they assume the market risk for their purchase.
When people buy a home, they assume the market risk for their purchase.
When people spend money on an MMO, they assume the market risk for their purchase.
There is no guarantee that your risk will pay off. MMOs change all the time. If you are naive to think that any MMO will stay the same, then you may want to buy some big boy/girl pants and start wearing them. That ain't how the world works.
Basically 99% of answers on most of controversial mod12b changes are negative. So you are saying that 99% of the community who's angry about them is wrong and the one who's right is you?
If a trenmendous part of playerbase is worried about upcoming changes, then there's a pretty big chance (not to say we're sure) that it will be bad. Your quasi-inelectual posts don't provide anything on this discussion. You don't talk about the topic of any thread, just attack people who are on the other side of barricade (basically everyone here). I would like to hear your arguments, your point of view and proofs that changes are fair and reasonable. If you can't provide me any of those, then I just have (and everyone else here should) to consider you as a troll.
The Mod12b Random Queue system is the worst idea I've ever heard from NW Dev(s).
This feature will cause many new players to quit prematurely.
How are new players ever gonna get to 11k if the daily rewards are locked behind it in the first place.
Devs are delving into Catch-22 territory where newbies are in a discouragement loop until they leave.
This is a severe mistake and miscalculation the NW Devs need to reassess.
I've helped and talked to many NW newbies. Many 60-70 (new and returning ) are confused and overwhelmed as it, with the staggering amount of campaigns and currencies they need to track. On top of that, is a seemingly insurmountable gearing-up Wall.
Behind that Wall, the Devs erect the Random Queue Wall where daily rewards are locked out. If the new player spigot get strangled out, the NW base population will thin and dry out as well.
They need to rethink/reevaluate this before they roll this out just like that.
Ignore this last post of mine. I was responding to a much older version of the thread where the language was cloudy and does not seem to include below 11k to the random dungeon queue. The first page is much clearer now, that normal dungeons are included in the Random queue. Hence, it's now nowhere as bad as I was making it out to be.
The only downside now is choice. Perhaps in the future they can do a standardization pass on the epic dungeons, for example so they don't have to rely on randomisation. Thanks for reading.
Pre Mod 6 I didn't really feel like queuing for a PUG dungeon or two was a big deal. I would go lots of places with random people and do fine. However, post mod 6 and the couple months after it completely soured the experience for me all together on a personal level. As a support class there were too many times that I got verbally mistreated, vote kicked from dungeons or loot stolen from me at the final boss chest. I know the game has taken steps to avoid that but the random queuing type of environment was the reason I quit the game. I was random queuing at not the 'highest end game level' at the time because I was a fresh level 70- as was the entire game. My causal friends were still leveling alts or had decided that elemental evil wasn't worth killing all those brain cells on repetitive content. I came back for Strongholds because it was a move towards community content. Since then- the game has become more focused on fostering friendships and community with the introduction of Strongholds, Alliances and private queuing. All those additions I love- for better or worse and I've invested countless hours in supporting. I even have made and maintained a discord server just so that I can hang out and keep in touch with the friends I've made in the game. I moved guilds to be in a place where I like running with the people I'm with and getting to know them. Now, you're asking me, no actually telling me that in order to make any extra AD I can't actually run with all those people and those people can't always run with me. The entire reason I play this game is to made AD and laugh with friends. I've kept up with my friends list and I try to talk to people I like running with regularly. PuGing is a mindless sterile experience. Random queueing sounds like it's a recipe for bad. We'd all just be there to punch the clock and get out to collect a pay check. There wouldn't be any room for under preforming employees in the party in high end content. No helping to carry your friends like new borns because you like them on their alts they are still learning to play because of party restrictions.
I don't have time to read all 31 pages of feed back but I have some questions.
How would vote-kicking work? Would you get a penalty for being vote-kicked? If so this is bad in multiple ways.
IE- lets say a paladin healer queues for a dungeon. Oh the party wants a DC! - Vote kick. Clearly- having a penalty would suck. or the inverse- Lets say this DPS is a really obnoxious guy and is constantly pulling things on the party, heckling and being a Hamsterhat in Say/Party chat. Vote kick? Having a penalty would probably be reasonable.
How that's handled is very important.
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
It was not long ago that the majority of people thought that the world was flat. Only about 500 years ago, which in our history, is not very long.
Every time a comet passes by the earth there are a considerable number of people that think it is the end of times,
When people buy stocks, they assume the market risk for their purchase.
When people buy a home, they assume the market risk for their purchase.
When people spend money on an MMO, they assume the market risk for their purchase.
There is no guarantee that your risk will pay off. MMOs change all the time. If you are naive to think that any MMO will stay the same, then you may want to buy some big boy/girl pants and start wearing them. That ain't how the world works.
Sure, and while your post more suitable for the bondings thread and not here, allow me to address it. Yes, in all of the above we do a risk assessment, and decide if to invest or not. Same with the game and our time and funds.
There is a slight difference between the end of the world, and playing as for fools. For example if your broker lost your invested money and comes to you with "Look at the good side, now you can look for new avenues of investment", or the insurance company refuses to pay for your demolished home and comes with "It's good for you, you are now free for materialistic ties. You can look for spiritual freedom"
I don't think your adult pants will take it kindly. It's one thing, to say, people, we have to much AD from dungeons for veteran groups. Noob queues (VT,MC, etc..) don't pop. eCC, eGWD wasn't ventured in ages. And no pug can do FBI/ SP because.... no sane person will try to pug it (And if someone reads it and pugs it, please seek help ).
So we want to do X,Y,Z. In this case remove rAD, keep salvage for private / public queue, and move rAD to RQ. Then we can discuss this and provide actual feedback.
And another the claims bu various people about bots, about more rAD, etc...
Will it net less overall AD, yes. So 90% of the discussion here counting rAD gain from there or from here are superfluous, and we could get to the point.
Will it solve the FBI/SP queue issues, less likely. I've touched that in my previous post. RQ FBI / SP should be separated, IL rised, and rewards re-balanced. The main problem as far as I see, is the lack of capable supports. I can give for this my subjective view. I have a semi boonless DC, and I'm capable of putting r12, t.armor, t.weapon enchantment, and with some double RP, bringing the artifacts to good level. With the account unlock I will be able to join stuff on it (which is a good thing). Am I confident to go with a guild / friends group, yes, (and I've actually unlocked Tomb), worst case, I can leave, and we can shuffle. Am I capable of doing the same with not premade RQ, I don't think so.
But at the end I'm rational person (at least somewhat), I'm willing to invest the time, learn it, gear it, and here we come to my adult pants, and I'm doing value/investment assessment. And so far SP doesn't look good, and actually I have nothing against the dungeon design, I like it, but you lag on second boss, you screwed, and it lags. Like crazy. Going with 3dps, 1 heals, 1 tank, is sub optimal composition, for high risk low reward situation. Why should I do it ?
So will we suddenly have influx of pubQ supports ? I don't think so. Will we have more people running overall. I think yes, because account unlock will allow easier meta compositions, and the deciding factor will be the rewards.
A side effect of account wide unlock will do more to the stated purpose of RQ more than RQ themselves. Splitting the RQ queues, and adjusting the RQ IL requirements (higher) will encourage people to get boons on the account unlocked alts. And will positively adjust success chance for this. Adjusting the rewards can encourage those forgotten places even without random factors (obviously it's not random but use PubQ needs)
I've mentioned that your post more fitting the bondings one, so I'll touch that, yes, MMOs have changes, nerfs, buffs, adjustments and what not. But there are two issues, something that is untouched for so long and becomes a 'mandatory' progress component. And the fact that the change devlues what we have and resell it to us for 50mil AD. MMOs are are entertainment, they built one the premise of endless progress, and our subjective enjoyment. We pay/play to be entertained. Devaluing my achieved progress is not what I expect. Resseling it to me is not what I expect. And at the end, this is not entertaining, and it's not what I'm here for, so we all take our considerations.
BTW there is a limit of how many times "for the health of the game" can work over balance issues / bugs that last for years. Calling the key decline exploit is absurd. Calling the 2 eToS runs abuse, is absurd. Keeping such disparity in class balance for so long is, yes, absurd. And at the end, for all of us here (or at least most of us) it's a game, it's premise is a place that we are not wearing our adult pants (to some extent) and enjoy our escapism and for that environment there are better ways to achieve the same results or at least less antagonizing.
Basically low ilv characters need RAD most, but they are locked off epic RQ as RAD source. Even if they get on the queue (due alt unlock of dungeon or by trash cheap enchants), they will not contribute to run. So their progress will be quite slow as most ilv progress requires quite a lot of AD. And now low ilv or suboptimal characters (like my DC w/o bonding companion so no powershare that is currenly must for complex content), could abstain from dungeons where they will not contribute, but in new system they will be forcebly put in they situation, they could only ruin the run. I'm feeling ok in eToS, barely acceptable in eGWD, and I'm liability in CT. RQ system will not fix it, it will just make other people unhappy if they receive my DC in complex content. They will be waiting for next heal to come wasting time.
Also I do not understand how everfrost restitance will play out in RQ SKT dungeon and skimishes. Should everyone have it before starting they queue? Considering that equipment with everfrost resistance is no longer the BIS and I would rather put useful reinforcments like crit or power on armor, should everyone wear it anyway before starting queue? Or I'll will be kicked out just after entering SKT content because of lack of needed everfrost resistance?
Currently I'm just avoiding SKT content, because it is long and does not give good rewards. I'm also avoiding SKT armor becuase or charging nonsense (charging would have been ok, if it would been permanent, just like refinement). Why I should bother with it in RQ system? Are there some plans to abolish everfrost resistance like black ice resistance was abolished in mod 6?
Basically 99% of answers on most of controversial mod12b changes are negative. So you are saying that 99% of the community who's angry about them is wrong and the one who's right is you?
Read my post. I did not attack anyone. I did not call anyone out. You are putting words in my mouth and assigning negativity to my post that is not there.
I already posted my feedback on the new RQ system. I just felt like posting something more philosophical.
Basically low ilv characters need RAD most, but they are locked off epic RQ as RAD source. Even if they get on the queue (due alt unlock of dungeon or by trash cheap enchants), they will not contribute to run. So their progress will be quite slow as most ilv progress requires quite a lot of AD.
You will be able to make significant AD (7K base, before VIP and prayer) by "random queuing" for LEVELLING dungeons. You'll one-shot everything and nothing in them can threaten you, but it should only waste 15-20 minutes at most to get your big chunk of daily AD.
Random Epic Dungeon is intended to be a nice boost, you're intended to run the sub-level easy stuff to make money.
Also I do not understand how everfrost restitance will play out in RQ SKT dungeon and skimishes. Should everyone have it before starting they queue? Considering that equipment with everfrost resistance is no longer the BIS and I would rather put useful reinforcments like crit or power on armor, should everyone wear it anyway before starting queue? Or I'll will be kicked out just after entering SKT content because of lack of needed everfrost resistance?
Any character who has opened Storm King's Thunder has gained the Periapt Of Everfrost Resistance, which gives +30% frost resist inherently and removes the whole "need minimum frost resist to queue" factor.
I suppose it's possible that someone could have unlocked SKT before the Periapt was added *and* not claimed it in their mail - I suspect they wouldn't be able to queue because you must be able to enter all dungeons in Epic Random in order to queue for Epic Random. However, the fix for that would be to claim the Periapt Of Everfrost Resistance from their mail.
Not going to bother trying to quote posts because i don't have the mental capacity to edit around quotes.
This change lowers AD generation in game and reduces player options yet again, this is a fact. Lowering AD generation and/or outright limiting the options your regular player has access to in order to maybe earn AD and progress is the only measure Cryptic have ever used to fight bots, exploits or other *problems* that they say exist that no one ever sees apart from them. Every single change has made the game worse, often FAR worse, less fun and the player base diminishes massively each time. This RQ fiasco will be no different.
Cryptic controls the game economy not the players so any reasoning like the one they are using now of *oh but we can't let more resources enter the economy that would cause problems so let's gate everything behind this dumb idea we came up with that no one ever asked for* - yes,yes you can because YOU set the price on anything that has any value. You don't want to ruin an economy that is fundamentally flawed and puts everyone off the game especially new players? First of all why not, second of all if you have near full control of the amount of resources ( both time and AD ) it takes to accomplish anything if you don't want to ruin an economy you can simply make proportionate changes to both cost and generation while still making everything take less time and effort for the normal player, what a shocking thought am i right? This isn't rocket science not even in the real world and last time i checked Neverwinter isn't part of it.
Them being able to get away with this kind of reasoning every time and people still support them is the reason why this game went from fantastic to a boring stale grind fest that fortunately for Cryptic still has a stellar combat system so hasn't died completely yet. Apart from a leadership army i've used every single way to make AD in this game, ultimately speed running dungeons will always be the best option for the vast majority of players, the newer/weaker they are the more they rely often solely on such runs for progression.
The only dungeon system this game used that ever worked was the glory days of unbound gear with each dungeon dropping only a specific gear piece so you have to run 5-6 different ones to complete your character. EVERY dungeon was played and a lot ( Epic Dread Vault yes i know. ), obviously the most efficient ones were played the most and the hardest/slowest ones the least, but the game was far more healthy and there was a thing as supply and demand for actual gear. Simply adding the seal system there is now with bound gear so you don't go emo after doing 100 runs of Caverns of Karrundax without seeing your Avatar of War bracers and fixing some ( i repeat, SOME ) of the *exploits* that were shortening dungeon clear time would have made the system near perfect.
Because i have no illusions of the glory days returning is why i proposed guaranteed salvage gear for every boss in epic dungeons. If we are going to stick to this stale and grindy RAD style of progression then we need to severely improve the time/effort to reward ratio not make it significantly worse with a dumb RQ. Either big cuts on everything from ZEN Store to amount of marks needed for upgrading and both guaranteed and more resources for anyone willing to run epics or other activities not doable by bots until they fall asleep OR massive cuts on time/resource costs on everything and a proportionate decrease of possible AD generation while still accomplishing a massive easing in progression.
Back in Mod 1-3 you could run several end-game (not BIS, end-game. ) chars at the same time without exploiting,needing to amass ludicrous amounts of AD in order to play the economy/lockbox lotto or turning this game into a part-time job. Anyone with 10 hours to spend a week could do this while having fun and variety in the process. Now a new player would be lucky to even obtain ONE end-game character and no means to bring another one up to par for months, all the while contemplating why they even bother with the horrendously boring repetitive grind. This is Dungeons & Dragons, make dungeons great again.
This is the point you are totally wrong with - the second cleric isn't a healer, it's a buff/debuff.
When I say healer, I mean the role that the game currently acknowledges cleric by. I understand that in most situations, both clerics are doing almost no active healing, and instead focusing on buffs/debuffs.
This is the point you are totally wrong with - the second cleric isn't a healer, it's a buff/debuff.
When I say healer, I mean the role that the game currently acknowledges cleric by. I understand that in most situations, both clerics are doing almost no active healing, and instead focusing on buffs/debuffs.
@asterdahl He gets an unrestored Relic piece. That he can't use until he A) farms up a LOT more seals to buy restoration materials visits the longest, hardest zones in the game and farms voninblood (not doing quests, just farming) for HOURS.
Compared with when a piece of armor is sold directly as a finished item, the price of the base piece is reduced to compensate for the required materials. However, you pointed out the voninblod requirement. When Module 12 launched, we wanted to ease into making the relic armor easier to get, as many of you had been working hard to obtain it up until that point.
With Module 12B, we'll be adding removing the voninblod requirement for the base item as well as reducing the number of other reagents required. The equipment can still be charged using voninblod, but even if you just ignore that extra charge mechanic, the equipment is still very strong for how straightforward it will now be to obtain.
The way the game stands right now, classes can not be strictly defined by tank, healer, DPS roles anymore. A hexagon of tanking, mitigation, buffs, debuffs, healing, and DPS would better represent what's essential for current end game contents.
It's been made very clear that you are unhappy about the 2 clerics-in-a-5-man meta. Would you care to share what kind of meta you would be happy about?
We are well aware that the game's current meta doesn't fit squarely (triangularly?) into the trinity. I already talked a bit about why that is. I do hear some people calling for things like a six player party, and I can say we have no plans to adjust the party size. Obviously a "hexagon" does not work very well with a 5 person party. Even beyond that, having 5 distinct roles required for each party is not ideal.
There are some big questions for the team to work out, and I realize you'd all like to know exactly what changes are going to happen and when, but I can't say because we haven't put any details in stone ourselves, beyond my mentioning adjustments coming to the 2 DC meta.
I mentioned this tangentially, and to acknowledge to those among you who were pointing out the role requirements as being out of touch that we are aware of this issue and we're looking at it. Making the requirements account for the current meta is much more difficult than it sounds, additionally, leaving a lot of open ended requirements would actually bog the queue system down significantly.
As I understand it, you need to have unlocked ToNG to do random epic.
Tomb of the Nine Gods is in its own random queue category so you don't need access to it to queue for an epic dungeon. Whatever is the current highest item level content (which could be any number of queues, as long as they all share the same item level category, it simply happens to be that right n
What exactly are they hoping to achieve with the random queues?
If I do a random queue and get a dungeon I don't want to do, I will just switch characters. If it happens again, I will just log out. If it happens a lot I will stop bothering to log in. Design goal achieved?
Currently we don't have any plans to make the leaver penalty account wide. We do think this behavior is going to happen a lot as people get used to the new system and try to rail against it. We will be watching this, and I will say that we do expect this sort of behavior to trend downward as people get used to the new format (of course, I know that those of you who are frustrated by the changes are going to feel like this response is out of touch) however, if after some time has passed there are still a lot of players abusing the system in this manner, we will consider adjustments like account wide leaver penalty.
We'd honestly prefer not to do this, and there are plenty of valid reasons one might want to leave a party, such as the party being abusive, and in that case we'd like you to be able to queue on another character. So I'd say the likelihood of this sort of adjustment right now is pretty low, but if the abuse is high enough, there will definitely be adjustments. So I'd ask that if you feel like you'll leave if you end up in one of the queues in a certain random queue, please don't queue for it.
On the other hand, if engagement isn't high enough, as many of you speculate it will not be for things like the epic dungeon and epic trial queue, we'll also consider making adjustments there to improve those queues. Even moving queues around will be on the table. So just know that we're going to be monitoring how things play out and making adjustments.
How would vote-kicking work? Would you get a penalty for being vote-kicked? If so this is bad in multiple ways.
IE- lets say a paladin healer queues for a dungeon. Oh the party wants a DC! - Vote kick. Clearly- having a penalty would suck. or the inverse- Lets say this DPS is a really obnoxious guy and is constantly pulling things on the party, heckling and being a Hamsterhat in Say/Party chat. Vote kick? Having a penalty would probably be reasonable.
How that's handled is very important.
It's very difficult to solve a human problem like this with a procedural, data-driven solution. However, things will be more restrictive in terms of vote kicking in 12B, so hopefully that will rule out people kicking one another because they "prefer a different class."
With Module 12B, vote kicking will be on a four hour cooldown for each player. Basically, we wanted to limit initiating a vote kick to once per session for each player. Whether your vote kick passes or fails, you won't be able to initiate one again for four hours. So if you play in the morning and again in the evening, you'll have one available both times, but you're unlikely to have more than one per session.
In this case, hopefully we'll see that people save their vote kick for when they really need it—a player being abusive or AFKing—and not waste it on something delinquent. Of course delinquent vote kicks will still happen, so we'll be monitoring things and consider making adjustments, such as making the restriction account wide, etc.
Now in terms of that cooldown, I'm sure there are going to be a ton of players speculating that this will be all sorts of chaos: for instance, what if no one in the group has a vote kick available? Well, we actually don't think this is very likely to happen in normal play. If you're queuing as a solo or duo, you're going to end up with other random players, and most people are only going to queue for 1 of each random queue a day at most, and not run them ad infinitum. So chances are, you'll have someone in your group who hasn't run a lot of queues that session yet, and therefore not used their kick.
If and when actual abuse or trolling happens, we think that if the group is in consensus about ousting the offender, at least one player is going to have a vote kick available. If you're queuing with 5, you shouldn't ever need vote kick, and in fact (won't be able to, as you won't be able to kick those who are on your team before you queue.) If there's a likely scenario for running into a situation where the entire group is out of kicks, it's probably a premade of 4 players who are using vote kick over-judiciously. Generally a premade of this size is fairly rare though, as if there are already 4 players they tend to prefer to find a 5th.
In the end, we're also hoping the new player bonus will motivate those players who might be thinking very heavily about time-to-reward ratio to be happy to help out a new player who ends up in there queue. To that end, we'll be making adjustments to the new player bonus rewards as well based on feedback and data.
your launching a new refinement system to at the same time, and with a new refinement system last thing you want to do is lessen or change the way people making AD
These changes really won't have a noteworthy impact on refinement. Keep in mind that refinement is essentially a commodity market in Neverwinter, which is basically a world with only one currency—astral diamonds. Things are a little more complicated than this explanation, but if everyone's AD earn were negatively impacted by these changes (which they won't be) there would be deflation across the board and the price of refinement would fall to compensate for the change in everyone's income.
Essentially, in terms of refinement, your buying power would stay the same, because you'd be buying from other people whose earnings also went down. The only place you'd have less buying power was against items with a static cost, things that come from NPCs for instance, which are few and far between compared to player-traded goods.
With all that said, there shouldn't really be a huge impact on the AD economy from these changes, and almost certainly not a deflation effect.
I think this new system is horrible. You guys are going to lose a lot of players... Stop paying attention to the high powered people who spend thousands of dollars to pay to win... don't the rest of us matter at all? Sure I'm VIP but every time I think I've reached the top, you guys pull stunts like this that hurt the rest of us. Introducing Private queues was possibly the best update I've ever seen this game have. It reduced TONS of stress! It was nice being able to private queue a baby dungeon to maybe be able to get slightly closer to the big players by getting ahead on AD. It was also nice because you could pull in a friend or guildie at the end to lend them a hand as well. You could take your time and relax in a dungeon. You could go fast without worrying about someone keeping up or go slow without worrying about some high powered jerk complaining at you for going slow. Please don't put this into effect. Random queue for a random challenge = fun but Forcing players to do random queues to maybe scratch at the chance to make some AD = loss of a lot of players...
Why have these threads up if you aren't going to listen to us?
We all know even free games aren't "free". You guys have to put food on your tables and keep a roof over your heads. We all understand that... but stop hurting the non power gamers over with these changes.
Stop paying attention to the high powered people who spend thousands of dollars to pay to win... don't the rest of us matter at all?
Absolutely, all of our players mater to us. In fact, your self-described casual play style marks you as someone who stands to benefit the most from the changes. It sounds like you're saying you have a pretty active guild and circle of friends you play with, so you were pretty happy with using private queues casually, and that will still be possible—you can continue doing that in exactly the same way you do now, you'll just have to run 1 random leveling dungeon (which you can do with 2 of your friends) to get a big chunk of AD that you used to be able to get from doing 2 private queued epic dungeons before.
This change is definitely not directed at "high powered people." But more on why more casual players will benefit the most from these changes—if you don't have a huge network of friends, or if your friends happen to be offline, you'll be able to queue for whatever you want to do, or currently need, and your queue will pop faster than ever thanks to the people who are in the random queue. (You don't have to random queue, but those people in the random queue which encompasses whatever you queued for will be joining you to assist you.)
On top of this, if you hadn't cleared whatever queue you are in before, everyone with you will get a notification saying that someone is new and everyone will be getting an AD bonus if they clear the content, so they'll be motivated to help you. You can choose whether or not to let them know you're the new player, the system won't out you specifically.
We listen to all of our players, whether you've been with us a long time, or are just starting—we want to make the experience the best it can be. I mentioned in a previous post that we strongly believe long term this new system will benefit even our most hardcore player thanks to a cultural shift and the resulting overall skill level increase of players as a result of that cultural shift, but in the short term this feature is definitely strongly directed at helping newer players.
Skill level increase? U really think those in high population/rank guilds are gonna start hand held teaching random pugs to run content? seriously, u expect them to teach their own guildies and now random pugs. I have a feeling its not gonna happen.
Comments
If I do a random queue and get a dungeon I don't want to do, I will just switch characters. If it happens again, I will just log out. If it happens a lot I will stop bothering to log in. Design goal achieved?
There are a number of broken things in the game and a number of players feel they should be fixed first before other things are introduced which is not a valid argument because if that were the case subsequent mods would seemingly not have been released. Class balance is MUCH more involved than tweaking the already present queue system. Whether classes being able to queue specific "roles" is implemented sooner rather than later (if ever) it doesn't have to be added before the RQ system, a number of fixes come after the fact. There was no timeframe given as to when the groups mentioned didn't get off the ground nor who was part of those groups yet a negative assumption > conclusion was apparently formed...
As previously mentioned, a number of players already manually run EToS for salvage (and will continue to do so whether they have limited play time or choose so), only difference with RQ will be no bonus AD for manual runs. Limited play time isn't necessarily a strong enough argument against the RQ system. Players playing for a few hours a week (7-12 hours?) for RAD would be making how much progress anyway? Really though, if the bulk of time spent by a player is running content for RAD what other progress is being made (campaigns, Guild contributions, refining, upgrading, etc.)?...
The possible differences in RAD pre vs post Most 12b are foreseeable, the argument from this end isn't that there won't be a difference, the argument is that the possible reduction in RAD post Mod 12b will produce less AD in the market as well as lower the AD generated by AFK farmers, bots and abusers. As long as those type of players find methods to feed off the game/other players changes like the RQ system will continue to be developed and effect legitimate players though not stating that the RQ system was to solely do any one particular thing. As previously mentioned, enchantment refinement going from unbound to BtA was in part if not largely because of abuse by AFK farmers, bots, and abusers, the negative players ruined it for everyone. Same thing with bonus RAD, players for the LONGEST have been manually selecting the easiest content, now manually selecting content won't grant bonus RAD, when players abuse things changes come, fair enough.
CT - around 6 mins
CC - around 8 mins
GWD - around 8 mins
PKR - around 9 mins
TFH - around 6 mins
SC - around 10-15 (if that)
TotS - around 5 mins
CoK - around 13 mins
There's only about 2 leveling dungeons that may take higher ilvl characters around 10 minutes to complete, that's possibly 2 out of 8 making: quite false.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
@freshstart If part of the reason for the RQ system is the amount of RAD (easily generated), a system that built upon the previous one would not have the same effects.
One of the problems that would have come with simply keeping the previous system and adding onto it, "tiering" queues and or adding guaranteed salvage is that a lot of players would just continue the same way they had been (picking the easiest content and overly benefiting).
- with RQ'ing being an "incentive" (being optional) while bonus RAD is still granted from manual queues players will stick with their old ways for the most part.
- with "tiering" players would for the most part RQ for T1 and T2 and optionally T3 for a third daily bonus of RAD which would produce even more RAD in the economy.
- with guaranteed salvage drops (espec6ially), players will just continue to manually queue for EToS (as they have been) but then will be getting even more RAD from salvage circumventing the measures to lower RAD generation from manual queues.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Because it surely sounds like that to me. And from what is that conjecture about run times ? An eToS takes ~7 minutes on average.
It takes 2 eToS per char to get opitmal value from it. The overhead of changing chars is about 2 minutes.
If a player plays 2 hours per day, they can run 4 chars and progress in their campaign of choice.
Also where is that refining? Upgrading ? And what not come from? The refining is limited (so far) to double RP and upgrading is a click (or until wards, or patience runs out).
Guild contribution takes 10-15minutes. Still within your specified time limit. Where was the argument that RQ has any relation to bots? And how it's even relevant ?
A bot can run the leveling dungeons ad-nauseum, oh wait, that's us humans, the bots can run ad-infinitum, the bots will see an increase in net gain, simply because you can have infinite amount of bots, and now you get more for the first run and almost nothing for the second. Bots will swap char, while players have limited number of chars they are willing to maintain or do repetitive content on.
For example I don't want to run leveling dungeons. Bot don't care, and do those already.
The publicized argument for RQ is to make Queues pop faster for non RQ people who just want to run content. Right now, those wont pop, so new players who are not established socially in guilds, alliances, custom channels (that do not exists on consoles) can't run anything. This happens especially due to two reasons, lack of support players, and lack of established players willing to pubQ. And obviously the intersection of said groups.
RQ is meant to solve it, but making the dungeons account unlock will yield a better result than the entire RQ scheme in regards of support players (DC,OP,GF).
The significant imbalance in ran content can be easily solved by adjusting the rewards per run-time.
Or/and adding a daily /weekly bonus for less ran content (and possibly limiting it to public queue).
Lets be blunt, the bots will not be affected, they can run the leveling dungeons as much as they want.
Established players will run mostly premades, because I don't want to get stuck in SP with who knows whom. It's one thing someone asks for help and I can't decide what to bring and if I'm capable to help, and another to be thrown into the abyss. So people mostly run leveling dungeons too, or premades. The queue pop on gear progress dungeons is not solved. Unless my premade of for example 3 people is confident in the ability to carry any other 2 through SP/FBI, which is plausible for a core of mains, and not a heap of alts like I would run t2 now.
And we get overall AD gain nerf.
The benefit from all of this, that if someone wants my alt DC, with account unlock, I can avtually help, but that goes under private queue where they farm gear. So overall we have a single helpful side effect. and it's not RQ but the dungeon unlock.
The argument amounts to limited play time arguably not being a sufficient argument against the RQ system (pretty much the same argument was made during the dungeon key change thread(s)).
Players only being able to play for around an hour a session was brought up so the questions about progress were made. Also someone stated that many of the leveling dungeons take 3-4 times as much as another queue (5 minutes) so the queues were ran, timed and noted.
The various points of progress were brought up asking how much progress a limited time player would be making (campaigns, Guild contributions, refining > refinement item collecting/upgrading, etc.), with it taking pretty much an hour to run RAD and assuming Influence for a Guild, there isn't much time to run daily campaign quests... AFK farmers, bots and abusers are mentioned together because they all contribute to various changes to the game, in other words the various abuses of the game helped garner changes such as the RQ (players manually running the easiest content for RAD, bots being scripted due to the ease of the content, AFK farmers leeching skirmishes, etc.). Only mentioning bots in your argument doesn't negate the existence and actions of the other (AFK farmers, abusers).
The results of the RQ will be presented in due time, there are seemingly a lot of psychics that know exactly how and what will happen...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Yesterday, my buff/dps DC finished eGWD as top paingiver (wut?). Today I had to leave a eGWD run because after the first boss, my DC had 40M dps, and the three dps toons don't even have double digit million combined. Sorry, I can't carry like that.
And I'm seeing lots of toons sporting event artifacts, or even empty artifact slots.
I guess who can blame them for queuing eToS. So easy to find carries now. Do two quick runs and get max daily RAD, and some left over for rainy days. Rinse and repeat on all their trashy alts.
I just want to get the last shirt I need from eGWD before RQ.
"there are PLENTY of ways to generate straight AD which isn't capped though since those other ways take more effort..."
So please do elaborate. What is YOUR point ? Or how is this reply to mine ? This is simply false, because bots have no issue with the leveling dungeons. Did you just put people that run the easiest content as abusers, and into the same group as bots, and AFK farmers ?
Perhaps you should rethink your terminology.
This is not a Shakespeare play. Nor 'rocket science'. If you make some point, well, make it, back with some logic, and maybe we will be convinced or counter it.
If you think of trading (via AH or one-on-one) when you speak of "plenty ways", then you are right, but that does not generate AD, it only transfers EXISTING, already generated AD from one acoount to another. And I might be wrong, but I do not think that the devs have a problem with the latter, but more with the automated generation of AD (bots). Because simply transferring existing AD does not hurt the economy at all, but uncontrolled generation of AD does.
The implementation of this random queue is awful. It doesn't consider the time and the will players have to run, which basically is the one and only thing they have to consider.
- I have 15 min of playtime, would I random queue for epic dungeon? Well no because i can end up in MSP that can take hours in a random group, and is mostly going to fail.
- I have hours of playtime, would I random queue for epic dungeon? Well no because i can end up in one that i don't want to run, or I don't have the campaign key for, or in a failing group that is going to waste my time.
All that for what, to get back the AD you deleted from the normal queue? No thanks.
So you're simply lowering in a HUGE amount the generated AD, and in the same module, are going to increase by a HUGE amount the AD needed to simply get back the power we had. What could possibly go wrong?
For me it's simple, i won't even bother playing alts anymore, back on playing ONE character. I won't be able to random skirmish with the alts and i wouldn't do that because of the very long IG. So bye to the Master of the Hunt, i will truly miss you. With a bit of luck, the random leveling dungeon won't take more time that the 2 leveling Temple of Spider that i do with the alts, but then again i will lose AD.
So after the VERY APPRECIATED step forward on alts play, with better gear easily available and account bound, with easy craftable artifact weapons, with the future campaign boost, this huge loss of AD seems like three steps backward on alt-friendly game, meaning diversity of gameplay, experience.
Have already made a number of points in this thread and provided supporting information as well, what tends to happen though is pretty much anyone that isn't on the negative nancy bandwagon when it comes to proposed changes gets treated like an enemy.
@therealprotex, the terms were used interchangeably.
Will simply state this, anytime a character receives AD and that same amount of AD is not deducted from somewhere else AD is being generated.
Apparently staff has a problem with players getting considerable amounts of AD from manually queuing easy content.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
And it is you, who has the audacity to call people who run the 2 dungeons abusers.
I've read this entire thread, and yet to see your actual bottom line point. Nor actual coherent response to issues brought up.
So lets clear things up:
1. What are the other plenty of ways that we generate AD from ? I remember only of dungeons (by dungeons I refer to all queueable content, including trials for example), and ~3 weeklies, but enlighten me. If you wrote it already, I apologize, I've missed it, please quote it again.
2. How is the RQ detrimental to bots? We can safely assume 2 conditions, there is no number limit on bots, and they can run leveling dungeons (both already known and not new).
3. Comparing to 2xeToS, for 15min per char. Will I make more or less ? AD/time.
4. Will RQ solve the stated problem of queue pop in a timely fashion? Please consider here, if people will be inclined to gamble on FBI/SP without a premade or not, especially on less geared alts.
I don't mind people bringing whatever position they want, but please if you want to make a point, make it and back it. modus ponens is a great thing, need more of it.
I doubt that the opinions are any different in other guilds.
Every time a comet passes by the earth there are a considerable number of people that think it is the end of times,
When people buy stocks, they assume the market risk for their purchase.
When people buy a home, they assume the market risk for their purchase.
When people spend money on an MMO, they assume the market risk for their purchase.
There is no guarantee that your risk will pay off. MMOs change all the time. If you are naive to think that any MMO will stay the same, then you may want to buy some big boy/girl pants and start wearing them. That ain't how the world works.
Basically 99% of answers on most of controversial mod12b changes are negative. So you are saying that 99% of the community who's angry about them is wrong and the one who's right is you?
If a trenmendous part of playerbase is worried about upcoming changes, then there's a pretty big chance (not to say we're sure) that it will be bad. Your quasi-inelectual posts don't provide anything on this discussion. You don't talk about the topic of any thread, just attack people who are on the other side of barricade (basically everyone here). I would like to hear your arguments, your point of view and proofs that changes are fair and reasonable. If you can't provide me any of those, then I just have (and everyone else here should) to consider you as a troll.
The only downside now is choice. Perhaps in the future they can do a standardization pass on the epic dungeons, for example so they don't have to rely on randomisation. Thanks for reading.
Pre Mod 6 I didn't really feel like queuing for a PUG dungeon or two was a big deal. I would go lots of places with random people and do fine. However, post mod 6 and the couple months after it completely soured the experience for me all together on a personal level. As a support class there were too many times that I got verbally mistreated, vote kicked from dungeons or loot stolen from me at the final boss chest. I know the game has taken steps to avoid that but the random queuing type of environment was the reason I quit the game. I was random queuing at not the 'highest end game level' at the time because I was a fresh level 70- as was the entire game. My causal friends were still leveling alts or had decided that elemental evil wasn't worth killing all those brain cells on repetitive content. I came back for Strongholds because it was a move towards community content. Since then- the game has become more focused on fostering friendships and community with the introduction of Strongholds, Alliances and private queuing. All those additions I love- for better or worse and I've invested countless hours in supporting. I even have made and maintained a discord server just so that I can hang out and keep in touch with the friends I've made in the game. I moved guilds to be in a place where I like running with the people I'm with and getting to know them. Now, you're asking me, no actually telling me that in order to make any extra AD I can't actually run with all those people and those people can't always run with me. The entire reason I play this game is to made AD and laugh with friends. I've kept up with my friends list and I try to talk to people I like running with regularly. PuGing is a mindless sterile experience. Random queueing sounds like it's a recipe for bad. We'd all just be there to punch the clock and get out to collect a pay check. There wouldn't be any room for under preforming employees in the party in high end content. No helping to carry your friends like new borns because you like them on their alts they are still learning to play because of party restrictions.
I don't have time to read all 31 pages of feed back but I have some questions.
How would vote-kicking work? Would you get a penalty for being vote-kicked? If so this is bad in multiple ways.
IE- lets say a paladin healer queues for a dungeon. Oh the party wants a DC! - Vote kick. Clearly- having a penalty would suck.
or the inverse- Lets say this DPS is a really obnoxious guy and is constantly pulling things on the party, heckling and being a Hamsterhat in Say/Party chat. Vote kick? Having a penalty would probably be reasonable.
How that's handled is very important.
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
Yes, in all of the above we do a risk assessment, and decide if to invest or not. Same with the game and our time and funds.
There is a slight difference between the end of the world, and playing as for fools.
For example if your broker lost your invested money and comes to you with "Look at the good side, now you can look for new avenues of investment", or the insurance company refuses to pay for your demolished home and comes with "It's good for you, you are now free for materialistic ties. You can look for spiritual freedom"
I don't think your adult pants will take it kindly.
It's one thing, to say, people, we have to much AD from dungeons for veteran groups. Noob queues (VT,MC, etc..) don't pop.
eCC, eGWD wasn't ventured in ages. And no pug can do FBI/ SP because.... no sane person will try to pug it (And if someone reads it and pugs it, please seek help
So we want to do X,Y,Z. In this case remove rAD, keep salvage for private / public queue, and move rAD to RQ. Then we can discuss this and provide actual feedback.
And another the claims bu various people about bots, about more rAD, etc...
Will it net less overall AD, yes. So 90% of the discussion here counting rAD gain from there or from here are superfluous, and we could get to the point.
Will it solve the FBI/SP queue issues, less likely. I've touched that in my previous post. RQ FBI / SP should be separated, IL rised, and rewards re-balanced.
The main problem as far as I see, is the lack of capable supports. I can give for this my subjective view. I have a semi boonless DC, and I'm capable of putting r12, t.armor, t.weapon enchantment, and with some double RP, bringing the artifacts to good level. With the account unlock I will be able to join stuff on it (which is a good thing). Am I confident to go with a guild / friends group, yes, (and I've actually unlocked Tomb), worst case, I can leave, and we can shuffle. Am I capable of doing the same with not premade RQ, I don't think so.
But at the end I'm rational person (at least somewhat), I'm willing to invest the time, learn it, gear it, and here we come to my adult pants, and I'm doing value/investment assessment. And so far SP doesn't look good, and actually I have nothing against the dungeon design, I like it, but you lag on second boss, you screwed, and it lags. Like crazy. Going with 3dps, 1 heals, 1 tank, is sub optimal composition, for high risk low reward situation. Why should I do it ?
So will we suddenly have influx of pubQ supports ? I don't think so.
Will we have more people running overall. I think yes, because account unlock will allow easier meta compositions, and the deciding factor will be the rewards.
A side effect of account wide unlock will do more to the stated purpose of RQ more than RQ themselves. Splitting the RQ queues, and adjusting the RQ IL requirements (higher) will encourage people to get boons on the account unlocked alts. And will positively adjust success chance for this. Adjusting the rewards can encourage those forgotten places even without random factors (obviously it's not random but use PubQ needs)
I've mentioned that your post more fitting the bondings one, so I'll touch that, yes, MMOs have changes, nerfs, buffs, adjustments and what not. But there are two issues, something that is untouched for so long and becomes a 'mandatory' progress component. And the fact that the change devlues what we have and resell it to us for 50mil AD.
MMOs are are entertainment, they built one the premise of endless progress, and our subjective enjoyment. We pay/play to be entertained.
Devaluing my achieved progress is not what I expect.
Resseling it to me is not what I expect.
And at the end, this is not entertaining, and it's not what I'm here for, so we all take our considerations.
BTW there is a limit of how many times "for the health of the game" can work over balance issues / bugs that last for years. Calling the key decline exploit is absurd. Calling the 2 eToS runs abuse, is absurd. Keeping such disparity in class balance for so long is, yes, absurd.
And at the end, for all of us here (or at least most of us) it's a game, it's premise is a place that we are not wearing our adult pants (to some extent) and enjoy our escapism and for that environment there are better ways to achieve the same results or at least less antagonizing.
Also I do not understand how everfrost restitance will play out in RQ SKT dungeon and skimishes. Should everyone have it before starting they queue? Considering that equipment with everfrost resistance is no longer the BIS and I would rather put useful reinforcments like crit or power on armor, should everyone wear it anyway before starting queue? Or I'll will be kicked out just after entering SKT content because of lack of needed everfrost resistance?
Currently I'm just avoiding SKT content, because it is long and does not give good rewards. I'm also avoiding SKT armor becuase or charging nonsense (charging would have been ok, if it would been permanent, just like refinement). Why I should bother with it in RQ system? Are there some plans to abolish everfrost resistance like black ice resistance was abolished in mod 6?
I already posted my feedback on the new RQ system. I just felt like posting something more philosophical.
Random Epic Dungeon is intended to be a nice boost, you're intended to run the sub-level easy stuff to make money. Any character who has opened Storm King's Thunder has gained the Periapt Of Everfrost Resistance, which gives +30% frost resist inherently and removes the whole "need minimum frost resist to queue" factor.
I suppose it's possible that someone could have unlocked SKT before the Periapt was added *and* not claimed it in their mail - I suspect they wouldn't be able to queue because you must be able to enter all dungeons in Epic Random in order to queue for Epic Random. However, the fix for that would be to claim the Periapt Of Everfrost Resistance from their mail. That's already happened, sort of.
This change lowers AD generation in game and reduces player options yet again, this is a fact. Lowering AD generation and/or outright limiting the options your regular player has access to in order to maybe earn AD and progress is the only measure Cryptic have ever used to fight bots, exploits or other *problems* that they say exist that no one ever sees apart from them. Every single change has made the game worse, often FAR worse, less fun and the player base diminishes massively each time. This RQ fiasco will be no different.
Cryptic controls the game economy not the players so any reasoning like the one they are using now of *oh but we can't let more resources enter the economy that would cause problems so let's gate everything behind this dumb idea we came up with that no one ever asked for* - yes,yes you can because YOU set the price on anything that has any value. You don't want to ruin an economy that is fundamentally flawed and puts everyone off the game especially new players? First of all why not, second of all if you have near full control of the amount of resources ( both time and AD ) it takes to accomplish anything if you don't want to ruin an economy you can simply make proportionate changes to both cost and generation while still making everything take less time and effort for the normal player, what a shocking thought am i right? This isn't rocket science not even in the real world and last time i checked Neverwinter isn't part of it.
Them being able to get away with this kind of reasoning every time and people still support them is the reason why this game went from fantastic to a boring stale grind fest that fortunately for Cryptic still has a stellar combat system so hasn't died completely yet. Apart from a leadership army i've used every single way to make AD in this game, ultimately speed running dungeons will always be the best option for the vast majority of players, the newer/weaker they are the more they rely often solely on such runs for progression.
The only dungeon system this game used that ever worked was the glory days of unbound gear with each dungeon dropping only a specific gear piece so you have to run 5-6 different ones to complete your character. EVERY dungeon was played and a lot ( Epic Dread Vault yes i know. ), obviously the most efficient ones were played the most and the hardest/slowest ones the least, but the game was far more healthy and there was a thing as supply and demand for actual gear. Simply adding the seal system there is now with bound gear so you don't go emo after doing 100 runs of Caverns of Karrundax without seeing your Avatar of War bracers and fixing some ( i repeat, SOME ) of the *exploits* that were shortening dungeon clear time would have made the system near perfect.
Because i have no illusions of the glory days returning is why i proposed guaranteed salvage gear for every boss in epic dungeons. If we are going to stick to this stale and grindy RAD style of progression then we need to severely improve the time/effort to reward ratio not make it significantly worse with a dumb RQ. Either big cuts on everything from ZEN Store to amount of marks needed for upgrading and both guaranteed and more resources for anyone willing to run epics or other activities not doable by bots until they fall asleep OR massive cuts on time/resource costs on everything and a proportionate decrease of possible AD generation while still accomplishing a massive easing in progression.
Back in Mod 1-3 you could run several end-game (not BIS, end-game. ) chars at the same time without exploiting,needing to amass ludicrous amounts of AD in order to play the economy/lockbox lotto or turning this game into a part-time job. Anyone with 10 hours to spend a week could do this while having fun and variety in the process. Now a new player would be lucky to even obtain ONE end-game character and no means to bring another one up to par for months, all the while contemplating why they even bother with the horrendously boring repetitive grind. This is Dungeons & Dragons, make dungeons great again.
With Module 12B, we'll be adding removing the voninblod requirement for the base item as well as reducing the number of other reagents required. The equipment can still be charged using voninblod, but even if you just ignore that extra charge mechanic, the equipment is still very strong for how straightforward it will now be to obtain. We are well aware that the game's current meta doesn't fit squarely (triangularly?) into the trinity. I already talked a bit about why that is. I do hear some people calling for things like a six player party, and I can say we have no plans to adjust the party size. Obviously a "hexagon" does not work very well with a 5 person party. Even beyond that, having 5 distinct roles required for each party is not ideal.
There are some big questions for the team to work out, and I realize you'd all like to know exactly what changes are going to happen and when, but I can't say because we haven't put any details in stone ourselves, beyond my mentioning adjustments coming to the 2 DC meta.
I mentioned this tangentially, and to acknowledge to those among you who were pointing out the role requirements as being out of touch that we are aware of this issue and we're looking at it. Making the requirements account for the current meta is much more difficult than it sounds, additionally, leaving a lot of open ended requirements would actually bog the queue system down significantly. Tomb of the Nine Gods is in its own random queue category so you don't need access to it to queue for an epic dungeon. Whatever is the current highest item level content (which could be any number of queues, as long as they all share the same item level category, it simply happens to be that right n Currently we don't have any plans to make the leaver penalty account wide. We do think this behavior is going to happen a lot as people get used to the new system and try to rail against it. We will be watching this, and I will say that we do expect this sort of behavior to trend downward as people get used to the new format (of course, I know that those of you who are frustrated by the changes are going to feel like this response is out of touch) however, if after some time has passed there are still a lot of players abusing the system in this manner, we will consider adjustments like account wide leaver penalty.
We'd honestly prefer not to do this, and there are plenty of valid reasons one might want to leave a party, such as the party being abusive, and in that case we'd like you to be able to queue on another character. So I'd say the likelihood of this sort of adjustment right now is pretty low, but if the abuse is high enough, there will definitely be adjustments. So I'd ask that if you feel like you'll leave if you end up in one of the queues in a certain random queue, please don't queue for it.
On the other hand, if engagement isn't high enough, as many of you speculate it will not be for things like the epic dungeon and epic trial queue, we'll also consider making adjustments there to improve those queues. Even moving queues around will be on the table. So just know that we're going to be monitoring how things play out and making adjustments.
It's very difficult to solve a human problem like this with a procedural, data-driven solution. However, things will be more restrictive in terms of vote kicking in 12B, so hopefully that will rule out people kicking one another because they "prefer a different class."
With Module 12B, vote kicking will be on a four hour cooldown for each player. Basically, we wanted to limit initiating a vote kick to once per session for each player. Whether your vote kick passes or fails, you won't be able to initiate one again for four hours. So if you play in the morning and again in the evening, you'll have one available both times, but you're unlikely to have more than one per session.
In this case, hopefully we'll see that people save their vote kick for when they really need it—a player being abusive or AFKing—and not waste it on something delinquent. Of course delinquent vote kicks will still happen, so we'll be monitoring things and consider making adjustments, such as making the restriction account wide, etc.
Now in terms of that cooldown, I'm sure there are going to be a ton of players speculating that this will be all sorts of chaos: for instance, what if no one in the group has a vote kick available? Well, we actually don't think this is very likely to happen in normal play. If you're queuing as a solo or duo, you're going to end up with other random players, and most people are only going to queue for 1 of each random queue a day at most, and not run them ad infinitum. So chances are, you'll have someone in your group who hasn't run a lot of queues that session yet, and therefore not used their kick.
If and when actual abuse or trolling happens, we think that if the group is in consensus about ousting the offender, at least one player is going to have a vote kick available. If you're queuing with 5, you shouldn't ever need vote kick, and in fact (won't be able to, as you won't be able to kick those who are on your team before you queue.) If there's a likely scenario for running into a situation where the entire group is out of kicks, it's probably a premade of 4 players who are using vote kick over-judiciously. Generally a premade of this size is fairly rare though, as if there are already 4 players they tend to prefer to find a 5th.
In the end, we're also hoping the new player bonus will motivate those players who might be thinking very heavily about time-to-reward ratio to be happy to help out a new player who ends up in there queue. To that end, we'll be making adjustments to the new player bonus rewards as well based on feedback and data. These changes really won't have a noteworthy impact on refinement. Keep in mind that refinement is essentially a commodity market in Neverwinter, which is basically a world with only one currency—astral diamonds. Things are a little more complicated than this explanation, but if everyone's AD earn were negatively impacted by these changes (which they won't be) there would be deflation across the board and the price of refinement would fall to compensate for the change in everyone's income.
Essentially, in terms of refinement, your buying power would stay the same, because you'd be buying from other people whose earnings also went down. The only place you'd have less buying power was against items with a static cost, things that come from NPCs for instance, which are few and far between compared to player-traded goods.
With all that said, there shouldn't really be a huge impact on the AD economy from these changes, and almost certainly not a deflation effect.
Why have these threads up if you aren't going to listen to us?
We all know even free games aren't "free". You guys have to put food on your tables and keep a roof over your heads. We all understand that... but stop hurting the non power gamers over with these changes.
This change is definitely not directed at "high powered people." But more on why more casual players will benefit the most from these changes—if you don't have a huge network of friends, or if your friends happen to be offline, you'll be able to queue for whatever you want to do, or currently need, and your queue will pop faster than ever thanks to the people who are in the random queue. (You don't have to random queue, but those people in the random queue which encompasses whatever you queued for will be joining you to assist you.)
On top of this, if you hadn't cleared whatever queue you are in before, everyone with you will get a notification saying that someone is new and everyone will be getting an AD bonus if they clear the content, so they'll be motivated to help you. You can choose whether or not to let them know you're the new player, the system won't out you specifically.
We listen to all of our players, whether you've been with us a long time, or are just starting—we want to make the experience the best it can be. I mentioned in a previous post that we strongly believe long term this new system will benefit even our most hardcore player thanks to a cultural shift and the resulting overall skill level increase of players as a result of that cultural shift, but in the short term this feature is definitely strongly directed at helping newer players.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John