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Refinement: Technical Details

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  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    nirafelos said:

    125k AD for a UMoP

    So 1.25x SMoP? Why not just use 1x SMoP + 1xGMoP instead? Just inventory management?

    Why does this awkwardly make R12-R13 enchantments (1 UMoP) 75k and 3 greater enchantment stones less expensive than R11-R12 (2 SMoPs, 3 Greater enchantment stones)

    And again, why use 10x GMoP for R8-R9 Weapon/Armor Enchants instead of (2x GMoP + 2x SMoP) or 2x UMoP?
    Why use 15x GMoP for R9-R10 instead of (3x GMoP + 3x SMoP) or 3x UMoP?
    Why 10 SMoPs instead of 8 UMoPs?
    Why 15 SMoPs instead of 12 UMoPs?

    I mean, it doesn't really matter as these all have the same AD cost from the bazaar, but smaller numbers often look less daunting.
    Doesn't work that way... Higher ranks are using higher-tier items, it ain't just using same value... If they wanted that, why not just use AD (like reinforcements) instead xP
    FrozenFire
  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    @noworries#8859, didn't get an answer earlier... Is there a cap on the RP you can have?
    FrozenFire
  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    edited September 2017

    About the Empowered Runestones... HP is usually 4x other stats. So considering you're getting 2000 for other stats, HP should've been 8000... 32000 is quite certainly a mistake... @noworries#8859

    All enchantments are messed up wrt. HP... R13 Radiants give 3500 instead of 3400, Dual-stat enchants give 2200 HP instead of 2300... Triples give 2400 instead of 2800... It MUST be x4, else everything goes wrong.

    Also, the enchantment stats are way off... Please run through them again... Empowered is the most glaring example... 32000 HP is equivalent to 8000 of other stats

    @noworries#8859
    FrozenFire
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    lowjohn said:

    stark760 said:

    I sent a similar ticket when I failed 30 times upgrading 2 rank 6's, a 30% chance on each. Support said that was what made refining "exciting". Odds were over 1/100,000 to fail 16 times in a row, followed by 14 more on the next. I was really excited the entire time.

    Nah, you're calculating the wrong thing, it's nowhere NEAR 1/100000 for your whole situation. You don't want "fail 16, succeed, fail 14, succeed, in that order". That's unlikely but it COULD have happened several other ways. You want the odds of "failing 30 times and succeeding once in any order, then succeeding once" to correctly match your situation. "Failing 30 times and succeeding twice in any order" is actually more like it, except you wouldn't have kept going if you succeeded early.

    Regardless: 16 fails is a 0.3% chance, or 1/300. 14 fails is 0.6%, or 1/150. Sucks that you were the unlucky dude twice in a row, but in a mere *450* players, you were two of them.


    You don't just add the fractions and say 1/300 + 1/150 = 1/450. I was off too, had 18 fails, then 12 following that. .7^18 is 1.6/1000, .7^12 is 13.8/1000, odds of happening back to back like that 1 in 45,455(22 in a million). Response from Malv:
    "To be honest, the refining success chance rate is one of the exciting in-game system that I've encountered in Neverwinter."
    Yeah right
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    So bottom line, you hurt the long standing players who have already refined. They used double the refinement, double the marks, had to use extra copies to upgrade, and had a lower chance to get to rank 12. And let's be honest, only those players are going to struggle to lvl 14, not people messing with rank 7's, 8's and 9's. Just once it would be nice where a change was made in the game, and it wasn't designed to help new players catch up quickly. In the process, you make all the work that people toiled over worthless. Better to not play for months and come back, than to upgrade on a harder system, and now that was all pointless. Why bother lvling a rank 11 right now? Spend twice the RP, 4 SMOP instead of 2, and a lower %.
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    32k HP for runestone isnt a bit out of balance??? @noworries#8859
    Also: triple stats enchantments giving 40% more stats of a single stat enchantment is intended?
    The stat difference should not be as large since well its not right and the refinement points are going to give the same amount of RP in both single and triple stat enchantments.
    Please reconsider.
    Post edited by rayrdan on
  • mullymoomoo#7130 mullymoomoo Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    > @mullymoomoo#7130 said:
    > I got a question that I did not see asked yet. Apologies if it has been asked already. Currently if you feed matching stones into another you get a match bonus. For example feeding azure into another azure gives a matching bonus of X2 RP.
    >
    > What are you guys doing to compensate for this or do we lose this under your new system?
    >
    > Because if you don't compensate for this then you are in fact nerfing the refinement process

    Hello. could you please advise about the current ability to match enchants and runes and get a bonus. Will this work in future or is this being taken away?
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    rayrdan said:

    32k HP for runestone isnt a bit out of balance??? @noworries#8859
    Also: triple stats enchantments giving 40% more stats of a single stat enchantment is intended?

    I hope so. Double and triple stat enchants need to give significantly more than single-stat ones, otherwise, why bother with them?

    Hoping for improvements...
  • valnoledvalnoled Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    well... that sounds nice in theory. In practice I've just spent 50+ wards for 10% rate of upgrade... and did not yet upgraded the item. So it will be pretty expensive anyway
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    rayrdan said:

    32k HP for runestone isnt a bit out of balance??? @noworries#8859
    Also: triple stats enchantments giving 40% more stats of a single stat enchantment is intended?

    I hope so. Double and triple stat enchants need to give significantly more than single-stat ones, otherwise, why bother with them?

    so why bother with single stat enchantments?
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    rayrdan said:


    so why bother with single stat enchantments?

    You typically don't have an "equal" need for all stats - for many classes/builds, one of the 3 stats from a triple-stat enchant will be a lot less useful than the others, which is why single-stat enchants are popular. Multi-stat enchants have to give a higher overall total to compensate.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    rayrdan said:


    so why bother with single stat enchantments?

    You typically don't have an "equal" need for all stats - for many classes/builds, one of the 3 stats from a triple-stat enchant will be a lot less useful than the others, which is why single-stat enchants are popular. Multi-stat enchants have to give a higher overall total to compensate.
    single stat enchantments are popular because the refinement material is way cheaper. Something will not be true anymore with the next update
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    After all the negative feedback, I'd like to say that with bondings back to 100% (or close to) uptime and the other current numbers I believe these changes are going to be great.

    A few things will probably have to be tweaked here and there but the removal of the double RP events alone is a very very very welcome change and I can't wait to finally be able to use my RP anytime I want rather than once every two or three months.
  • markeen#2032 markeen Member Posts: 302 Arc User
    The only part of any of these changes I like is removing the need of a second enchant to rank up. The rest really just seems like a ploy to scare away a fair amount of the player base and force players who have multiple toons to play on each one longer than the 5 minutes it takes to set professions and pray. I have 7 toons on console and 2 on PC. This is bad news for players who have far more toons than me. Now a player with 30 toons will have to play on each one for RP instead of passing on loot to refine. I purchased several legendary bags and bank slots on multiple toons just to carry the stacks of rp stones I was earning. Now that investment seems wasted. And who was asking for these changes? I can think of several other stuff that could be 'fixed'. All the time it's taking to make THIS a reality could have been used to fix those other issues. I don't understand. Things that need to be fixed get ignored or "set aside" to implement things that don't need to be fixed.
    Founder of Knights of Ra guild in Neverwinter PS4. Founder of The Arashikage Clan in Defiance, formally of PlayStation Home.
  • rainer#8575 rainer Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Maybe this is already mentioned but shouldn't demonic and draconic give 2800 hp to match the x4 multiplier compared to normal stats?

    Triple stat enchantments definitely have gotten a buff in this one. Before they gave 31% more stats than single enchantments; now they give 40% more stats. For double enchantments we went down from 20% extra to 15% extra.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    Maybe this is already mentioned but shouldn't demonic and draconic give 2800 hp to match the x4 multiplier compared to normal stats?

    No, I actually think this is 100% intentional....with the idea being to make augments a more viable alternative - consider that augments transfer HPs to their owner, but bonding runestones on summoned companions do not.

    From that perspective, the excessive HPs actually make sense - to make augment-based builds more viable.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    adinosii said:

    Maybe this is already mentioned but shouldn't demonic and draconic give 2800 hp to match the x4 multiplier compared to normal stats?

    No, I actually think this is 100% intentional....with the idea being to make augments a more viable alternative - consider that augments transfer HPs to their owner, but bonding runestones on summoned companions do not.

    From that perspective, the excessive HPs actually make sense - to make augment-based builds more viable.
    I disagree boosting one runestone to make augments build viable is not an excuse, what i need is defence on my companion? I will not get it because it's dumb to not get an empowered.



    I said maybe gifts comming from the user and not from the companions would be a good idea but maybe I'm seeing the picture wrong, making the bonus come from the player, for example, is just duck tapping the problem because it's not just about bondings, if a companion is that slow in reaching the target, it will be under performing with all other runestones, so the problem is also on companions being fast enough to keep with the party.

    At the current state (100% uptime 65%) i would say the gift with bonding runestones is around 170% in a full dungeon run with a top companion, facing this other runestones need a buff, after all all players comming to NWO in the future will be presented with all runestones at nearly the same price.


    @noworries#8859 any chance you can add some movement bonus to the runestones that applies to companions only?
    Post edited by treesclimber on

  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    stark760 said:

    lowjohn said:

    stark760 said:

    I sent a similar ticket when I failed 30 times upgrading 2 rank 6's, a 30% chance on each. Support said that was what made refining "exciting". Odds were over 1/100,000 to fail 16 times in a row, followed by 14 more on the next. I was really excited the entire time.

    Nah, you're calculating the wrong thing, it's nowhere NEAR 1/100000 for your whole situation. You don't want "fail 16, succeed, fail 14, succeed, in that order". That's unlikely but it COULD have happened several other ways. You want the odds of "failing 30 times and succeeding once in any order, then succeeding once" to correctly match your situation. "Failing 30 times and succeeding twice in any order" is actually more like it, except you wouldn't have kept going if you succeeded early.

    Regardless: 16 fails is a 0.3% chance, or 1/300. 14 fails is 0.6%, or 1/150. Sucks that you were the unlucky dude twice in a row, but in a mere *450* players, you were two of them.


    You don't just add the fractions and say 1/300 + 1/150 = 1/450. I was off too, had 18 fails, then 12 following that. .7^18 is 1.6/1000, .7^12 is 13.8/1000, odds of happening back to back like that 1 in 45,455(22 in a million). Response from Malv:
    "To be honest, the refining success chance rate is one of the exciting in-game system that I've encountered in Neverwinter."
    Yeah right
    I wasn't adding the fractions, I was being flippant about the fact that you had two rare-but-not-all-that-unlikely events one after another.

    The odds you you getting *those exact results* in *that exact order* are pretty low, but a better measure really would be "30 failures and 2 successes in 32 trials at p=.3", which is (32c2)*0.7^30*0.3^2. A quick trip past Wolfram Alpha tells me that's 0.1%. That's a mere 1/1000.

    That's a little misleading because in the 1/1000 case those two successes could come ANYWHERE, whereas in Neverwinter you stop as soon as you get two successes. For more accurate odds, you should probably go with "30 failures and one success in 31 trials, followed by exactly one success", which would be (31c1)*0.7^30*0.3 * 0.3 = 0.0006 = about 1 in 1600.

    I feel your pain - I failed *64* times in a row on a 5% last night[1] - but saying that your failure was 1/45K is just misleading.


    [1]: Actually about a 3.7% chance. Failing 64 times in a row SOUNDS like a lot, but it turns out it happens to about 1/27 of all people trying a 5% upgrade.
  • cellablockcellablock Member Posts: 253 Arc User
    i have a feeling my t vorpal is going to be like plaguefire 3 mods ago :smiley:
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User

    Now a player with 30 toons will have to play on each one for RP instead of passing on loot to refine.

    All the RP you earn on your main drops character bound, does it?

    What are you doing that makes it impossible to move RP items before converting them into currency?

    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Member Posts: 304 Arc User
    @noworries#8859 I really hope superior enchantment stones drop from other places than T9G, or that their drop rate is fairly high.

    Otherwise I see them going for millions of AD a piece (similar to release fartouched residuum prices). That price won't decline like fartouched did as demand will be constant due to everyone wanting r14 and unparalleled enchants.
  • wilsonekpolskawilsonekpolska Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    HI @noworries#8859 what about "Quartermaster's Enchantment" ?
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 651 Cryptic Developer

    About the Empowered Runestones... HP is usually 4x other stats. So considering you're getting 2000 for other stats, HP should've been 8000... 32000 is quite certainly a mistake... @noworries#8859

    All enchantments are messed up wrt. HP... R13 Radiants give 3500 instead of 3400, Dual-stat enchants give 2200 HP instead of 2300... Triples give 2400 instead of 2800... It MUST be x4, else everything goes wrong.

    Also, the enchantment stats are way off... Please run through them again... Empowered is the most glaring example... 32000 HP is equivalent to 8000 of other stats

    @noworries#8859
    Empowered was specifically set high to make it an interesting viable option. There has obviously been some players chatting about this so I'd enjoy hearing different opinions on that numbers and if they should be brought down some (I think 8000 is too low to make them something players might use, but maybe people feel that is enough).
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited September 2017


    Empowered was specifically set high to make it an interesting viable option. There has obviously been some players chatting about this so I'd enjoy hearing different opinions on that numbers and if they should be brought down some (I think 8000 is too low to make them something players might use, but maybe people feel that is enough).

    This is fine. Actually, as I said a bit earlier:
    adinosii said:


    No, I actually think this is 100% intentional....with the idea being to make augments a more viable alternative - consider that augments transfer HPs to their owner, but bonding runestones on summoned companions do not.

    From that perspective, the excessive HPs actually make sense - to make augment-based builds more viable.

    The thing is, the additional HP goes a long way towards making augments a viable alternative for certain classes/builds/situations. Right now we are at the point where Bonding stones are just a category above anything else, but the proposed changes will change that - people will have to consider the advantages and disadvantages for their particular classes/builds.

    Sure, there will be classes/builds where Bonding runestones on summoned pets remain the best choice, but there will be other situations where augments are clearly the way to go. I think you got the hit point bonuses just about right for that to be realistic.

    For me personally, I expect tp keep on using bondings on my main (DC), augments on my GF and OP ... not yet sure about the rest - have to see how things work out in the end.

    Hoping for improvements...
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 655 Arc User
    Having empowered at 32000HP will make them an option, and if runestones would give 4000 points instead of 2000 probably would make more players use augments instead of bondings.
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Member Posts: 304 Arc User

    Empowered was specifically set high to make it an interesting viable option. There has obviously been some players chatting about this so I'd enjoy hearing different opinions on that numbers and if they should be brought down some (I think 8000 is too low to make them something players might use, but maybe people feel that is enough).

    I actually think it's great, what I would like to see in addition to this is more augments with varied offense/defense slot combos and equip slot combos.

    Right now if I wanted to HP stack the bullet pup is the only option. There are tons of options for regular companions in terms of runestone slots and equip slots. We just need the same diversity on augments.

    Likewise augments need more competitive active bonuses. Right now if I wanted to switch to an augment I'd basically be giving up a 4% damage boost, or 10% defense shred. No augments in the game have anything that good (owlbear cub being the exception for some builds).

    I'm not saying they need active bonuses on par with the archons, but It'd be nice to get something useful in return.
  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    here's my feedback, devs should create more bonding runestones:
    you guys could get the same stats from azures,darks, silvery,rad....

    Fierce bonding : 1050 crit/defence 65% stat
    Bold Bonding 1050 arpen/lifesteal 65% stats

    Maybe in the future Brutal Bonding : 575 power/crit.

    IMO, this will give us a new way to build our stats, i mean, i could use 2 bonding and one Bolt bonding to have my arpen.
    I don't know if this is a good ideia, but i think it could be awesome, for us and for the game.

    You can sell it on companion packs at zen store and drop from lockboxes.

    @noworries#8859



    Post edited by dyukiller on
  • wilsonekpolskawilsonekpolska Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    I have one more question why bond dont give hp ? if u want give us Empowered runestone who grants us 32k hp on ioun.
    what do think ?

    @noworries#8859
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Assorted mechanics questions:

    Is event refinement going to be allowed to be used universally (lumens from Simril and all the weird stuff from Liars) or fundamentally changed?

    TBH, with the excess amount players can end up with (of lumens in particular), being able to use them on anything would be a welcome addition, and reward event participation without being too incredibly unbalancing due to seasonal availability.

    -------------

    Are invocation coffers being streamlined? You may want to keep one with enchants and one with gemstones just to have an additional source of (bound) enchants for people to rank up, but the two with different types of stones will be obsolete. Overall, I like this change for invoke coffers assuming they'll be able to drop green/blue/purple enchantment stones but getting a purple one won't be tainted by it being the wrong kind.

    -------------

    Will there be any difference in rewards between Dread Ring lairs now, or basically all in the same pool?

    -------------

    How will you change the HE reward items from EE zones? Each of these could drop an enchant or a specific type of stone. Also, insignias were added to their loot table but not the tooltip, which should be addressed with any other adjustments.

    --------------

    Will enchantment stones be allowed to stack higher than marks? Will they be possible to convert into RP if you end up with bound ones you feel you don't need?

    --------------

    CASK OF WONDERS. Can it please be made in some way wonderful again?
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
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