ya reading back threw all this with some of the new post ........ plz plz plz DEV play with us on live server most here still dont know what they should.... if u go by this my DC will do GWF damage wile still adding nearly 300% to everyone's out going dps. plz dont use forum to make these changes play with us and look at the numbers yourself. or dont ATM i would love these changes would make my class even more broken then it already is. i wont mind at all to be DPS/TANK/HEALER/BUFFER/DEBUFFER... other than fbi/sva/new SP we can already solo the dungys so why not speed it up for me .
I think there's another, higher-level problem that you should be looking at when it comes to DCs (and OPs): The self-healing available to non-healer toons. If you are to consider tuning DCs, you should also consider the context of their powers and contribution within the game.
Once you get enough insignia bonuses ticking, along with some basic life steal, you basically don't die unless you get one-shot. This means DCs are never really needed to heal in group content; their niche is rather being a buffbot and occasionally protecting against one-shots. The change to AA is a good thing in the latter regard, but it still won't fix the excessive healing capacity of high-end non-healer toons.
This incredible healing that characters are now capable of also contradicts a prior change that was made in severely nerfing the Regeneration stat, to the point that it's largely a dead statistic now. You could address this by tying healing bonuses such as insignia bonuses directly to Regeneration rather than hit points, simultaneously reducing some excessive self-healing capacity, increasing the cost of having self-healing like that, and also making Regeneration more useful as a statistic again. Also changing the stat curve for life steal so that the statistic has lower returns would effectively reduce self-healing to a more reasonable level.
This would also make healing potions and stones of health more valuable commodities. It shouldn't have too great of an impact on solo play; it might make some players use more healing potions and such (I haven't really used any for several modules), but it should also restore some relevancy to the DCs' healing contribution to a party (as well as OPs and temptation SWs).
This is asking for a complete disaster. Back in the early days of the game mobs did not hit this hard. Leave it alone, we have big enough problems as it is. Last thing we need is so much pressure put on healers for healing everybody and their mother and grandmother that they just start quitting the game out of pressure due to everyone becoming completely helpless and screaming at them. It is far too late to go back to the old days with so much changed.
I think there's another, higher-level problem that you should be looking at when it comes to DCs (and OPs): The self-healing available to non-healer toons. If you are to consider tuning DCs, you should also consider the context of their powers and contribution within the game.
Once you get enough insignia bonuses ticking, along with some basic life steal, you basically don't die unless you get one-shot. This means DCs are never really needed to heal in group content; their niche is rather being a buffbot and occasionally protecting against one-shots. The change to AA is a good thing in the latter regard, but it still won't fix the excessive healing capacity of high-end non-healer toons.
This incredible healing that characters are now capable of also contradicts a prior change that was made in severely nerfing the Regeneration stat, to the point that it's largely a dead statistic now. You could address this by tying healing bonuses such as insignia bonuses directly to Regeneration rather than hit points, simultaneously reducing some excessive self-healing capacity, increasing the cost of having self-healing like that, and also making Regeneration more useful as a statistic again. Also changing the stat curve for life steal so that the statistic has lower returns would effectively reduce self-healing to a more reasonable level.
This would also make healing potions and stones of health more valuable commodities. It shouldn't have too great of an impact on solo play; it might make some players use more healing potions and such (I haven't really used any for several modules), but it should also restore some relevancy to the DCs' healing contribution to a party (as well as OPs and temptation SWs).
I think this is an important point to mention. Selfheal abilities are that easy to obtain, there is no need to even think about them in PVE as we can read above. Everything this game cares about atm. are buff, debuffs and dps. A GF is specced in >80% as conqueror, noone needs a Protector or a Tactition. A DC >90% is a buffer/dps spec, never saw any faithfull or virtous DC outside PVP for long (I don´t go PVP anyway, but faithfull still is the meta I guess). A Warlocks most wanted build is a fury-build, leaderrole from no interest. Devotion OP´s a rare these days, they can´t dps and heals are from minor interest. Saying it is too late to turn back things is no argument imo. To get back build-diversity, revive some trees and get players back to rethink the one and only meta they know ("dps/buff"), there is by sure a rework needed imo. Otherwise this game misses big aspects. I hope devs do think about this and turn back the wheel a bit, less onehit, less selfheal... I doubt this will happen tbh.
About that rework... The ability to stack two dailies at once is too tempting and I am 100% sure all we get are more broken and absurd setups. I gonna build my DC to hit >20k recovery , to spam HG+AA as often as I could. In between CD I gonna stay with AA, wich stays an overperforming Daily (high Mitigation + powerbuff x3+cc immunity) especially if spammable combined with insignia boni like shepards devotion . All what matters is AP gain in case they do not give a general CD to Dailies. This would hurt and lead to a big crying in forum I am sure, nevertheless this is a long lasting problem since the implementaion of DC sigil, but also points in the same direction...build diversity instead of build stupidity. I call it a half hearted rework, maybe too much fear about forum critzism.
ya reading back threw all this with some of the new post ........ plz plz plz DEV play with us on live server most here still dont know what they should.... if u go by this my DC will do GWF damage wile still adding nearly 300% to everyone's out going dps. plz dont use forum to make these changes play with us and look at the numbers yourself. or dont ATM i would love these changes would make my class even more broken then it already is. i wont mind at all to be DPS/TANK/HEALER/BUFFER/DEBUFFER... other than fbi/sva/new SP we can already solo the dungys so why not speed it up for me .
From my experiance ingame, a good GWF can deal somewhere around 6x-12x the dmg of my DC(got rank 12 bondings too). So 30% more dmg to some encounters won´t destroy the class roles balance.
I would second the "please don´t base balancing solely on the comments on the forum" but I think for the opposite reasons: Imo forum users(or more exactly ppl you use information sources outside the game) are way stronger than the players who don´t. Thats due to the massive number of crucial feats/power/items and so on not, or not exactly working as desribed, or tooltips simply not including the most important piece of information(f.e. HG : seperate layer of mitigation or counted toward the DR cap?). Sure, everything known must have been found out by someone, but I assume that required a rare kind of mind, lots of time, and often multiple ppl cooperating to perform the experiments.
The ability to stack two dailies at once is too tempting and I am 100% sure all we get are more broken and absurd setups. I gonna build my DC to hit >20k recovery , to spam HG+AA as often as I could. In between CD I gonna stay with AA, wich stays an overperforming Daily (high Mitigation + powerbuff x3+cc immunity) especially if spammable combined with insignia boni like shepards devotion . All what matters is AP gain in case they do not give a general CD to Dailies. This would hurt and lead to a big crying in forum I am sure, nevertheless this is a long lasting problem since the implementaion of DC sigil, but also points in the same direction...build diversity instead of build stupidity. I call it a half hearted rework, maybe too much fear about forum critzism.
A very good point, and I think this perfectly illustrates the main problem with the DC rework as proposed. It partially solves the problem of AA trivializing content, but AC DCs will continue to use it - alternating between it and HG, as those are simply the best choices when in a group. We will continue to see just one build as "the build" for DCs - AA, while nerfed still vastly outperforms the corresponding DO daily.
Then there is the power-sharing aspect.
Remember this song from "Annie get your gun"? Well, as far as I am concerned, that's the Annointed Champion power-sharer's song Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you. .. .. Anything you can be, I can be greater. Sooner or later I'm greater than you.
Seriously...a good, fully geared AC DC can boost party members by 100.000 Power - that's a lot, and you have to be insane or stubborn like an old mule to play anything else.
The DC rework needs two things - a fix to some long-standing bugs, and some changes to make more than one particular build viable for end-game content.
Seriously...a good, fully geared AC DC can boost party members by 100.000 Power - that's a lot, and you have to be insane or stubborn like an old mule to play anything else.
Only if some preconditions are met by the companions of the party members. You need two ingredients to reach that value: a good AC DC and some bonding runestones. That means that you have options: review again the DC powers or review the bonding runestones.
The cooldown added to a daily is the end of the daily power concept: if a daily requires a cooldown, it means that - at the very end - it is a special type/variation of the encounter power concept where two conditions must be fulfilled at the same time: full AP and cooldown expired. The former is a joke when your toon is properly equipped (and not only for the DC), so the latter is the only constraint. If this is the trend, please move the dailies into the basket of the the encounter powers and use the AP gain bar to fish only: easier and faster than creating strange alchemies.
Honestly the daily cooldown is a very bad patch to cover the uncontrolled management of the AP gain stat. Btw at 16k recovery, the HG cooldown is ~23 sec for a BIS Pow/Rec/Wis DC if the devs confirm that the daily cooldown follows the normal behavior.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I noticed some discussion on reducing self heals in order to make DC heals more important (and thus OP Devotion too). That is only half that issue though, so many mobs that one shot will also make heals obsolete. Unless you reduce both in some way I can't see heals being an end game set up.
Most classes have "one" go to build and though there is some diversity in some classes, there is always going to be one meta. The issue here is the distance between the "other" option and the "one" build. Whether nerfs to AC or buffs to DO it seems the gap is not closed enough yet.
Question on AA though; is 20% mitigation really going to matter much? At lower levels, sure, but in something like Orcus or FBI fights where you get one shot for 200k-300k+ that 20% isn't going to be enough to save a whole lot of players. Certainly that SS Renegade isn't going to get much help from it. Not saying the 20% isn't fine the way it is, just asking the question is all.
Question on AA though; is 20% mitigation really going to matter much? At lower levels, sure, but in something like Orcus or FBI fights where you get one shot for 200k-300k+ that 20% isn't going to be enough to save a whole lot of players. Certainly that SS Renegade isn't going to get much help from it. Not saying the 20% isn't fine the way it is, just asking the question is all.
That's why I see an opportunity to review the virtuous path by improving feats like unbreakable devotion. It's a feat that is on 4th column of the virtuous path. I would move it on 5th column and if you want it, you have to give up the righteous path: it means that if you want to mitigate more, you have to decrease your buff potential. It's an opportunity to create a specialization focused on mitigation instead of bot-buffing. You can pile up AA (or HG) + unbreakable devotion + Astral shield + BtS to provide a decent amount of mitigation because no heal is strong enough when you're one-shoted.
Regardless, let the players move more to avoid big shots....but I'm sure my ignore list will include more and more players yelling against my DC because it doesn't do this and that. Good luck
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Using Flail Snail and Burning Set, it is 50% AP gain on dailyuse. At 20k+ recovery the AP gain is redicules high, buffed by the right setup you get beyond 30k recovery, if you want 24/7 as a DC using insignia boni +artifact, since Artificers Persuation scales with powerstat (not basepower) as you all know, leading to crazy ammounts of Recovery, Movement, Action Point Gain, and Stamina Gain. HG may be on CD but you can spam AA in between 3 times, pop HG, pop DC sigil, spam AA 3 times during HG lasts, spam AA again 3 times during CD. That way you will gain >50% of the time HG uptime and 100% AA uptime. I could ask the devs to simply rebuild my HUD, putting two buttons on it, one left and one right to press them alternating ...this is not a balanced setup and no min/max, it´s simply broken and will lead to one build. It´s getting worse than the actual situation. If cryptic decides to build their game this way, let it be. Even if they would reduce AP gain drastically, those builds will stay meta.
Question on AA though; is 20% mitigation really going to matter much? At lower levels, sure, but in something like Orcus or FBI fights where you get one shot for 200k-300k+ that 20% isn't going to be enough to save a whole lot of players. Certainly that SS Renegade isn't going to get much help from it. Not saying the 20% isn't fine the way it is, just asking the question is all.
That's why I see an opportunity to review the virtuous path by improving feats like unbreakable devotion. It's a feat that is on 4th column of the virtuous path. I would move it on 5th column and if you want it, you have to give up the righteous path: it means that if you want to mitigate more, you have to decrease you buff potential. It's an opportunity to create a specialization focused on mitigation instead of bot-buffing. You can pile up AA (or HG) + unbreakable devotion + Astral shield + BtS to provide a decent amount of mitigation because no heal is strong enough when you're one-shoted.
Regardless, let the players move more to avoid big shots....but I'm sure my ignore list will include more and more players yelling against my DC because it doesn't do this and that. Good luck
IMO this is a great "balanced" option right here and I'd be inclinded to really consider this path.
I understand the nerf to AA since you do not want a daily that guarantees survival, and I think the nerf is more than fine. Because you @dreadnaught#5263 said that you want DCs to use different dailies rather than spamming one. But if this is the case, then I would highly recommend buffing divine armor's duration. 5 seconds is a pitance, and if you wish clerics to alternate between dailies then you should atleast buff the duration to 25-30 seconds oh hell, or even better to make it last forever but non-stacking. This way a cleric can use divine armor once, then switch to their second daily and leaving it to the cleric to decide when to refresh the Temp HP if they are attentive enough.
you say: Class Feature: Foresight - Enemies damaged by your encounter powers are slowed by 20%. CC Immune targets and players instead have their damage reduced by 10%
that's not a good thing. The Problem is - you should give something to the group to help them survive - 10 % is nothing. I like the deflect thing it could be higher to be more effective - or it could add AC like Anointed Armor. It could also be nice to share AC or more deflect to the group. http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Anointed_Armor
What you have to think about is: with more damage and higher healing you get aggro alot and it's hard to survive as a DO DC so something should be done. A higher deflect or add AC like anointed army would help enough - and I think it's easy to add
I noticed some discussion on reducing self heals in order to make DC heals more important (and thus OP Devotion too). That is only half that issue though, so many mobs that one shot will also make heals obsolete. Unless you reduce both in some way I can't see heals being an end game set up.
Most classes have "one" go to build and though there is some diversity in some classes, there is always going to be one meta. The issue here is the distance between the "other" option and the "one" build. Whether nerfs to AC or buffs to DO it seems the gap is not closed enough yet.
Question on AA though; is 20% mitigation really going to matter much? At lower levels, sure, but in something like Orcus or FBI fights where you get one shot for 200k-300k+ that 20% isn't going to be enough to save a whole lot of players. Certainly that SS Renegade isn't going to get much help from it. Not saying the 20% isn't fine the way it is, just asking the question is all.
That is only half that issue though, so many mobs that one shot will also make heals obsolete
I would also like to see a change so that Divinity builds up outside of combat, perhaps not so quickly as to make managing it in a fight unimportant, but at least enough so that it does come back. Adventuring in the Sea of Moving Ice really was annoying on my DC - losing all divinity every time I have to sail someplace, but it's been an ongoing nuisance just because I hate sitting around PE with an unfilled divinity meter!
This thing right here. Yes, for the love of Tymora, please.
You can actually regain divinity outside of combat if you use light of divinity and the artifact offhand feature.. I do because similar things annoy me ;P
Blessings in the name of Tymora
Relmyna- Tymoran Cleric
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
I understand the nerf to AA since you do not want a daily that guarantees survival, and I think the nerf is more than fine. Because you @dreadnaught#5263 said that you want DCs to use different dailies rather than spamming one. But if this is the case, then I would highly recommend buffing divine armor's duration. 5 seconds is a pitance, and if you wish clerics to alternate between dailies then you should atleast buff the duration to 25-30 seconds oh hell, or even better to make it last forever but non-stacking. This way a cleric can use divine armor once, then switch to their second daily and leaving it to the cleric to decide when to refresh the Temp HP if they are attentive enough.
if you buff divine armor what to do for DO clerics? How can they help the group?
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
The balance between DO and AC will remain lopsided as long as AC holds the stronger party daily. When comparing DO and AC you basically get into:
BotS vs BoB - dps/divinty over time vs buff FS vs Annoited Armor - defensive class features PA vs AHS - immunity (with big cooldown) vs temp HP PoD vs EX - debuff/AP buff (broken) vs buff
These all (except the last ones) create interesting build choices and don't severly tip the scales at all. The real challenge is the difference in dailys.
AA vs Hammers - There is no competition here. Because we already have a superior DPS daily in Flame Strike available to both sides. This means while HG was the top daily you had real choice between AC/DC, when HG fell out of favor (not because of the AP cooldown but because of the nerf to ITF) the scales got tipped into AC's favor by a large enough margin that almost everyone respec'd to DO. As long as the top daily remains in only ones paragons hands their will not be freedom of choice/balance.
No I'm not saying AA should be moved to both paragons, I'm saying the top daily cannot sit as a paragon specific skill without ruining balance.
I miss the old synergy systems we used to enjoy.
Remember when OPs needed DC GoH to keep bubbles up And GF needed DC HG/AS to maximize ITF
It was nice working together and having inter-dependencies between the classes
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
"You can actually regain divinity outside of combat if you use light of divinity and the artifact offhand feature.. I do because similar things annoy me ;P"
I had this conversation with Sharp in the Legit channel last night. That requires slotting LoD and frankly that would bug me far more... At any rate, hopefully we can get changes that move us away from always being tied to specific things.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
I noticed some discussion on reducing self heals in order to make DC heals more important (and thus OP Devotion too). That is only half that issue though, so many mobs that one shot will also make heals obsolete. Unless you reduce both in some way I can't see heals being an end game set up.
People are going to have really fun, and longer dungeon runs when they keep dying due that brief moment they get struck, and need to be healed by a healer asap, or die in the next hit. Healers are not bots, or multitasking gods.
This should NEVER happen until they tone down damage on mobs across the board. They can't even bring back the old dungeons. This is out of their time constraint.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited February 2017
This is not a feedback on the changes but a feedback on everything i think DC could need.
Feedback: Feats: Piercing light Piercing light could use a buff, bear your sins can be triggered by even 1 point in fire of the gods and 3 other powers, basicly it's not hard to get bear your sins and it's a debuff that will affect group.
Feedback: Feats: Living fire and final acts If a faithfull choses these feats they will be praticly never active, there is not much reason to chose them.
Feedback: Artifact equipment bonus:
Healer's lore, divine fortune, anointed armour all grant 150 of a stat, so in the best cases 0,75% of the effect of that stat....
Anointed holy simbol only activates in some encounters.
Feedback: Class features: Terryfiing insight: Anointed champion has the abbillity to cast Hallowed ground and AA at the same time increasing party damage by x power and still buff their damage with HG, Divine oracle can instead use other daillie but usually faster kill, safer kill, this is a very small change but a very important one in my opinion: Instead each stack of terrifing insight granting 2% DR debuff on the target, increase 1% DR debuff and increase DC damage by 1%, this should make it always usefull in pvp and pve.
Feedback: Class features: Light of divinity: The heal provided by this CF is very low.
Feedback: Class features:Soothe: Praticly no use, if your intention in this CF remains i think that att least the off hand class feature should work differently.
Feedback: Class features:Anointed action: Anointed action is very strong, yet very short, barelly gives time to react.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Searing light. Arm pen on empowered is not good, in pve, even if i have a build that focus my damage on searing light empowered the Arm pen i dont invest in order to get the 60% will likelly make my damage output lesser because of the sum of all other powers. Not just the arm pen is in most cases of no use also the damage is very low when comparing to chains of blazing light foe example, while in theory having searing light would spare a healing power, because of divinity mode, in practice that doesn't hapen because it's very restrict.
Sugestion: Empowered: By each divinity stack increases your arm penetration by 10% for 6. seconds; Divinity mode: Heal increase from 15% to 30%.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Sacred flame weak, dps lower than lance of faith, divinity generated lower and no multi target final damage, the temp hp granted is very very small.
Bug: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Sacred flame Bug: Sacred flame 3rd hit is hitting allies with aura of courage;
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Daunting light: Extremly good DPS but area extemly small to match the damage so many many times it fails to hit the target.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Prophecy of doom Very slow cast time, many people dont use it for this reason, casting will case problems somewhere else, being controled or delay the return to the rotation, delaying divinity generation therefor party protection/ buffs.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Astral Shield In pve this power is good, but not an overhaul, however in pvp the damage mitigation provides will easly make all the enemy attacks hit for 0, even if we think “but that's ok, other powers can heal allies up very easly”, the damage the hole team would take during Astral shield duration is superior the the heals easly, specially because of healing depression.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Warding flare. The temp HP provided by this power is very small, when comparing with astral shield, the normal/empowered mode, not even in a 1vs1 situation in pvp. I guess the power was designed to protect heavly 1 target but we cannot manually define wich target we want to be protected.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Geas. .....praticly no use anywhere.
Someone mentioned the lack of CC resist for DC's, i agree for a DC to get CC resist need huge amount of deflect or a elven battle and the dodge mechanic consumes a lot of stamina, unlike CW's DC rellies a lot on at wills to refill divinity that gets not easy with all pvp CC so the best way to handle CC is probably this way:
If the dc has no divinity chanelling non divinity mode will break CC and keep the imunity for 3 seconds; If the DC has divinity chanelling non divinity will reduce the CC by % based on the missin g divinity 3 seconds.
Cooldown 10 seconds.
Chanelling divinity will give to the DC temp hit points based on missing health equal at most to 30% of DC at 0 HP. Cooldown 10 seconds.
Looks like most player are fine with the next AC/DC meta at 20k recovery, doublespamming dailies like HG/AA all time. I look forward for the next 2 years of crying about missing build diversity, congrats.
I noticed some discussion on reducing self heals in order to make DC heals more important (and thus OP Devotion too). That is only half that issue though, so many mobs that one shot will also make heals obsolete. Unless you reduce both in some way I can't see heals being an end game set up.
People are going to have really fun, and longer dungeon runs when they keep dying due that brief moment they get struck, and need to be healed by a healer asap, or die in the next hit. Healers are not bots, or multitasking gods.
This should NEVER happen until they tone down damage on mobs across the board. They can't even bring back the old dungeons. This is out of their time constraint.
True, the current meta is that support provides damage mitigation so incoming damage is light and enables dps to rely on lifesteal to keep themselves at/close to full health.
This is actually really necessary and is the only way of coping with the current damage output of T2 NPCs. Unless this damage output is addressed, changing player abilities would be a disaster.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited February 2017
Realizing terrorizing insight is a stupid debuff...
The hell devs? Can it ever be made clear WHAT is debuff and what is an actual damage buff? Same HAMSTER with archery's capstone. We end up being useless during raids and such while ACs are the ones providing the real damage buffs.
This is very similar to the GF's ITF before it got worked on. GFs piled up defense and DR to turn into monster buffers. Allowing ACs to provide the group so much damn flat power. 40,000 is roughly 100% damage buff, and people can go way higher than that. How many buffs are too much?
DOs needs something for it to become relavant in raids.
The balance between DO and AC will remain lopsided as long as AC holds the stronger party daily. When comparing DO and AC you basically get into:
BotS vs BoB - dps/divinty over time vs buff FS vs Annoited Armor - defensive class features PA vs AHS - immunity (with big cooldown) vs temp HP PoD vs EX - debuff/AP buff (broken) vs buff
These all (except the last ones) create interesting build choices and don't severly tip the scales at all. The real challenge is the difference in dailys.
AA vs Hammers - There is no competition here. Because we already have a superior DPS daily in Flame Strike available to both sides. This means while HG was the top daily you had real choice between AC/DC, when HG fell out of favor (not because of the AP cooldown but because of the nerf to ITF) the scales got tipped into AC's favor by a large enough margin that almost everyone respec'd to DO. As long as the top daily remains in only ones paragons hands their will not be freedom of choice/balance.
No I'm not saying AA should be moved to both paragons, I'm saying the top daily cannot sit as a paragon specific skill without ruining balance.
I miss the old synergy systems we used to enjoy.
Remember when OPs needed DC GoH to keep bubbles up And GF needed DC HG/AS to maximize ITF
It was nice working together and having inter-dependencies between the classes
if you check: FS vs Annoited Armor - defensive class features
FS is much weaker because you miss the extra AC. If it's possible to bring more deflection to FS what you can give away the DO can also be protective. I think FS shlould add AC like Annointed Armor - maybe only for the cleric himself or you can give away 1 or 2 AC to the Party when slottet?
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
I noticed some discussion on reducing self heals in order to make DC heals more important (and thus OP Devotion too). That is only half that issue though, so many mobs that one shot will also make heals obsolete. Unless you reduce both in some way I can't see heals being an end game set up.
People are going to have really fun, and longer dungeon runs when they keep dying due that brief moment they get struck, and need to be healed by a healer asap, or die in the next hit. Healers are not bots, or multitasking gods.
This should NEVER happen until they tone down damage on mobs across the board. They can't even bring back the old dungeons. This is out of their time constraint.
True, the current meta is that support provides damage mitigation so incoming damage is light and enables dps to rely on lifesteal to keep themselves at/close to full health.
This is actually really necessary and is the only way of coping with the current damage output of T2 NPCs. Unless this damage output is addressed, changing player abilities would be a disaster.
I agree with the firdt part, but tuning down damage and reevaluate life steal and all the ls bonus to make it a slower heal would make suporters more relevant and healers actually important along with restoring strike etc...
you say: Class Feature: Foresight - Enemies damaged by your encounter powers are slowed by 20%. CC Immune targets and players instead have their damage reduced by 10%
that's not a good thing. The Problem is - you should give something to the group to help them survive - 10 % is nothing. I like the deflect thing it could be higher to be more effective - or it could add AC like Anointed Armor. It could also be nice to share AC or more deflect to the group. http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Anointed_Armor
What you have to think about is: with more damage and higher healing you get aggro alot and it's hard to survive as a DO DC so something should be done. A higher deflect or add AC like anointed army would help enough - and I think it's easy to add
Yes, it is a very very small amount. It (on live) only gives what 8% damage resistance unfeated. Not only that, but DR is capped. Meaning it is even weaker my proposed change on live.
Comments
plz dont use forum to make these changes play with us and look at the numbers yourself. or dont ATM i would love these changes would make my class even more broken then it already is.
i wont mind at all to be DPS/TANK/HEALER/BUFFER/DEBUFFER... other than fbi/sva/new SP we can already solo the dungys so why not speed it up for me .
A GF is specced in >80% as conqueror, noone needs a Protector or a Tactition.
A DC >90% is a buffer/dps spec, never saw any faithfull or virtous DC outside PVP for long (I don´t go PVP anyway, but faithfull still is the meta I guess).
A Warlocks most wanted build is a fury-build, leaderrole from no interest.
Devotion OP´s a rare these days, they can´t dps and heals are from minor interest.
Saying it is too late to turn back things is no argument imo.
To get back build-diversity, revive some trees and get players back to rethink the one and only meta they know ("dps/buff"), there is by sure a rework needed imo. Otherwise this game misses big aspects.
I hope devs do think about this and turn back the wheel a bit, less onehit, less selfheal... I doubt this will happen tbh.
About that rework...
The ability to stack two dailies at once is too tempting and I am 100% sure all we get are more broken and absurd setups.
I gonna build my DC to hit >20k recovery , to spam HG+AA as often as I could.
In between CD I gonna stay with AA, wich stays an overperforming Daily (high Mitigation + powerbuff x3+cc immunity) especially if spammable combined with insignia boni like shepards devotion .
All what matters is AP gain in case they do not give a general CD to Dailies. This would hurt and lead to a big crying in forum I am sure, nevertheless this is a long lasting problem since the implementaion of DC sigil, but also points in the same direction...build diversity instead of build stupidity.
I call it a half hearted rework, maybe too much fear about forum critzism.
I would second the "please don´t base balancing solely on the comments on the forum" but I think for the opposite reasons:
Imo forum users(or more exactly ppl you use information sources outside the game) are way stronger than the players who don´t. Thats due to the massive number of crucial feats/power/items and so on not, or not exactly working as desribed, or tooltips simply not including the most important piece of information(f.e. HG : seperate layer of mitigation or counted toward the DR cap?).
Sure, everything known must have been found out by someone, but I assume that required a rare kind of mind, lots of time, and often multiple ppl cooperating to perform the experiments.
Then there is the power-sharing aspect.
Remember this song from "Annie get your gun"? Well, as far as I am concerned, that's the Annointed Champion power-sharer's song
Anything you can do, I can do better.
I can do anything better than you.
..
..
Anything you can be, I can be greater.
Sooner or later I'm greater than you.
Seriously...a good, fully geared AC DC can boost party members by 100.000 Power - that's a lot, and you have to be insane or stubborn like an old mule to play anything else.
The DC rework needs two things - a fix to some long-standing bugs, and some changes to make more than one particular build viable for end-game content.
The cooldown added to a daily is the end of the daily power concept: if a daily requires a cooldown, it means that - at the very end - it is a special type/variation of the encounter power concept where two conditions must be fulfilled at the same time: full AP and cooldown expired. The former is a joke when your toon is properly equipped (and not only for the DC), so the latter is the only constraint.
If this is the trend, please move the dailies into the basket of the the encounter powers and use the AP gain bar to fish only: easier and faster than creating strange alchemies.
Honestly the daily cooldown is a very bad patch to cover the uncontrolled management of the AP gain stat.
Btw at 16k recovery, the HG cooldown is ~23 sec for a BIS Pow/Rec/Wis DC if the devs confirm that the daily cooldown follows the normal behavior.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Most classes have "one" go to build and though there is some diversity in some classes, there is always going to be one meta. The issue here is the distance between the "other" option and the "one" build. Whether nerfs to AC or buffs to DO it seems the gap is not closed enough yet.
Question on AA though; is 20% mitigation really going to matter much? At lower levels, sure, but in something like Orcus or FBI fights where you get one shot for 200k-300k+ that 20% isn't going to be enough to save a whole lot of players. Certainly that SS Renegade isn't going to get much help from it. Not saying the 20% isn't fine the way it is, just asking the question is all.
It's a feat that is on 4th column of the virtuous path. I would move it on 5th column and if you want it, you have to give up the righteous path: it means that if you want to mitigate more, you have to decrease your buff potential.
It's an opportunity to create a specialization focused on mitigation instead of bot-buffing. You can pile up AA (or HG) + unbreakable devotion + Astral shield + BtS to provide a decent amount of mitigation because no heal is strong enough when you're one-shoted.
Regardless, let the players move more to avoid big shots....but I'm sure my ignore list will include more and more players yelling against my DC because it doesn't do this and that. Good luck
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
At 20k+ recovery the AP gain is redicules high, buffed by the right setup you get beyond 30k recovery, if you want 24/7 as a DC using insignia boni +artifact, since Artificers Persuation scales with powerstat (not basepower) as you all know, leading to crazy ammounts of Recovery, Movement, Action Point Gain, and Stamina Gain.
HG may be on CD but you can spam AA in between 3 times, pop HG, pop DC sigil, spam AA 3 times during HG lasts, spam AA again 3 times during CD. That way you will gain >50% of the time HG uptime and 100% AA uptime.
I could ask the devs to simply rebuild my HUD, putting two buttons on it, one left and one right to press them alternating
...this is not a balanced setup and no min/max, it´s simply broken and will lead to one build. It´s getting worse than the actual situation.
If cryptic decides to build their game this way, let it be. Even if they would reduce AP gain drastically, those builds will stay meta.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
that's not a good thing. The Problem is - you should give something to the group to help them survive - 10 % is nothing. I like the deflect thing it could be higher to be more effective - or it could add AC like Anointed Armor.
It could also be nice to share AC or more deflect to the group.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Anointed_Armor
What you have to think about is: with more damage and higher healing you get aggro alot and it's hard to survive as a DO DC so something should be done. A higher deflect or add AC like anointed army would help enough - and I think it's easy to add
This !
Blessings in the name of Tymora
Relmyna- Tymoran Cleric
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
BotS vs BoB - dps/divinty over time vs buff
FS vs Annoited Armor - defensive class features
PA vs AHS - immunity (with big cooldown) vs temp HP
PoD vs EX - debuff/AP buff (broken) vs buff
These all (except the last ones) create interesting build choices and don't severly tip the scales at all. The real challenge is the difference in dailys.
AA vs Hammers - There is no competition here. Because we already have a superior DPS daily in Flame Strike available to both sides. This means while HG was the top daily you had real choice between AC/DC, when HG fell out of favor (not because of the AP cooldown but because of the nerf to ITF) the scales got tipped into AC's favor by a large enough margin that almost everyone respec'd to DO. As long as the top daily remains in only ones paragons hands their will not be freedom of choice/balance.
No I'm not saying AA should be moved to both paragons, I'm saying the top daily cannot sit as a paragon specific skill without ruining balance.
I miss the old synergy systems we used to enjoy.
Remember when OPs needed DC GoH to keep bubbles up
And GF needed DC HG/AS to maximize ITF
It was nice working together and having inter-dependencies between the classes
I had this conversation with Sharp in the Legit channel last night. That requires slotting LoD and frankly that would bug me far more... At any rate, hopefully we can get changes that move us away from always being tied to specific things.
This should NEVER happen until they tone down damage on mobs across the board. They can't even bring back the old dungeons. This is out of their time constraint.
Feedback: Feats: Piercing light
Piercing light could use a buff, bear your sins can be triggered by even 1 point in fire of the gods and 3 other powers, basicly it's not hard to get bear your sins and it's a debuff that will affect group.
Feedback: Feats: Living fire and final acts
If a faithfull choses these feats they will be praticly never active, there is not much reason to chose them.
Feedback: Artifact equipment bonus:
Healer's lore, divine fortune, anointed armour all grant 150 of a stat, so in the best cases 0,75% of the effect of that stat....
Anointed holy simbol only activates in some encounters.
Feedback: Class features: Terryfiing insight:
Anointed champion has the abbillity to cast Hallowed ground and AA at the same time increasing party damage by x power and still buff their damage with HG, Divine oracle can instead use other daillie but usually faster kill, safer kill, this is a very small change but a very important one in my opinion: Instead each stack of terrifing insight granting 2% DR debuff on the target, increase 1% DR debuff and increase DC damage by 1%, this should make it always usefull in pvp and pve.
Feedback: Class features: Light of divinity:
The heal provided by this CF is very low.
Feedback: Class features:Soothe:
Praticly no use, if your intention in this CF remains i think that att least the off hand class feature should work differently.
Feedback: Class features:Anointed action:
Anointed action is very strong, yet very short, barelly gives time to react.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Searing light.
Arm pen on empowered is not good, in pve, even if i have a build that focus my damage on searing light empowered the Arm pen i dont invest in order to get the 60% will likelly make my damage output lesser because of the sum of all other powers. Not just the arm pen is in most cases of no use also the damage is very low when comparing to chains of blazing light foe example, while in theory having searing light would spare a healing power, because of divinity mode, in practice that doesn't hapen because it's very restrict.
Sugestion:
Empowered: By each divinity stack increases your arm penetration by 10% for 6. seconds;
Divinity mode: Heal increase from 15% to 30%.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Sacred flame
weak, dps lower than lance of faith, divinity generated lower and no multi target final damage, the temp hp granted is very very small.
Bug: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Sacred flame
Bug: Sacred flame 3rd hit is hitting allies with aura of courage;
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Daunting light:
Extremly good DPS but area extemly small to match the damage so many many times it fails to hit the target.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Prophecy of doom
Very slow cast time, many people dont use it for this reason, casting will case problems somewhere else, being controled or delay the return to the rotation, delaying divinity generation therefor party protection/ buffs.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Astral Shield
In pve this power is good, but not an overhaul, however in pvp the damage mitigation provides will easly make all the enemy attacks hit for 0, even if we think “but that's ok, other powers can heal allies up very easly”, the damage the hole team would take during Astral shield duration is superior the the heals easly, specially because of healing depression.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Warding flare.
The temp HP provided by this power is very small, when comparing with astral shield, the normal/empowered mode, not even in a 1vs1 situation in pvp. I guess the power was designed to protect heavly 1 target but we cannot manually define wich target we want to be protected.
Feedback: At-wills/Daillies/Encounters:Geas.
.....praticly no use anywhere.
Someone mentioned the lack of CC resist for DC's, i agree for a DC to get CC resist need huge amount of deflect or a elven battle and the dodge mechanic consumes a lot of stamina, unlike CW's DC rellies a lot on at wills to refill divinity that gets not easy with all pvp CC so the best way to handle CC is probably this way:
If the dc has no divinity chanelling non divinity mode will break CC and keep the imunity for 3 seconds;
If the DC has divinity chanelling non divinity will reduce the CC by % based on the missin g divinity 3 seconds.
Cooldown 10 seconds.
Chanelling divinity will give to the DC temp hit points based on missing health equal at most to 30% of DC at 0 HP.
Cooldown 10 seconds.
I look forward for the next 2 years of crying about missing build diversity, congrats.
This is actually really necessary and is the only way of coping with the current damage output of T2 NPCs. Unless this damage output is addressed, changing player abilities would be a disaster.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
The hell devs? Can it ever be made clear WHAT is debuff and what is an actual damage buff? Same HAMSTER with archery's capstone. We end up being useless during raids and such while ACs are the ones providing the real damage buffs.
This is very similar to the GF's ITF before it got worked on. GFs piled up defense and DR to turn into monster buffers. Allowing ACs to provide the group so much damn flat power. 40,000 is roughly 100% damage buff, and people can go way higher than that. How many buffs are too much?
DOs needs something for it to become relavant in raids.
FS is much weaker because you miss the extra AC. If it's possible to bring more deflection to FS what you can give away the DO can also be protective. I think FS shlould add AC like Annointed Armor - maybe only for the cleric himself or you can give away 1 or 2 AC to the Party when slottet?
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John