Does this mean that they are going to fix the issue with casting Temp hit points on a GWF and the GWF not being able to use Unstoppable? This is a real annoyance!
Increasing overall dmg and fixing AA is a very good news. I love the change to Divine Armor as well, but 45s CD for Hallowed Ground is a bit too much imo; I would suggest 30s.
While we're at it, please fix the bugs below:
1. Prophecy of Doom: Does not grant AP (regardless of whether the enemy is killed or not). 2. Prophecy of Doom: Does not instantly recharge after enemy is killed. 3. Prophecy of Doom: Empowered version does not increase its duration. 4. Annointed Action: Does not proc for Divine Armor, Annointed Army and Guardian of Faith. 5. Divine Glow: Does not proc weapon enchantments. 6. Divine Glow: Does not have any effects on self if placed too far. 7. Repurpose Soul: Does not proc for certain skills (e.g. Daunting Light, Chains of Blazing Light). 8. Repurpose Soul: 3/3 only heals for ~9% instead of 15% of the spell's damage. 9. Hastening Light: Artifact offhand weapon bonus does not give 10% AP to allies. 10. Warding Flare: Does not shield any damage. 11. Bear Your Sins: Provides 10% arm pen instead of 10% damage; if arm pen cap is reached, it only increases the damage of the DoT that triggers it. 12. Furious Intervention: Does not increase AP gain of Chain of Blazing Light. 13. Holy Fervor: Does not increase AP gain of Chain of Blazing Light. 14. Geas: Does not grant any AP. 15. Ancient Warding: Does not heal and grant AP after Annointed Army has ended. 16. Light of Divinity: Put players in combat stance repeatedly. 17. Annointed Army: Gives 100% dmg mitigation instead of 90%. 18. Annointed Army: Gives CC immunity no matter how many times you've been hit.
Ecounters in divinity mode grant no AP. That should be changed And no, divine glow still doesn't proc weapon enchants.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Excellent change set. My only disappointment is that it is not already in preview and dropping with the next mod. Hopefully, the term "AA DC" will be gone forever after this. It's kind of disgusting for people ask for it so specifically, and even more for people who HAMSTER themselves out as one.
And who needs retraining tokens? I participated minimally in the winter festival and have a stack of BtA ones. The only people who don't have one are very new people and people who play with builds a lot.
dont be sure when they will release that because they are not stable to what they are saying. YES 1 week ago they said not in mod 11 but can you be sure about that?
I'm not sure if it is right place to complain about this but here we go. Am I the only Devoted Cleric on this game having problem with mounting after a fight if not Could devs check this out because doing easy things like dragon runs are like torture to me.
A lot of my opinon on these changes have already been stated but since you're asking for feedback to the proposed changes I will echo some of what's already been said in my own words to help further drive the point I think a lot of us DCs are feeling.
These changes are a good step in the right direction. They are changes that will address some of the overbalancing issues particularly in regards to Anointed Army spam while not being so overly heavy handed as to make the daily completely useless. I think the change to Divine Armor is super solid, I like the idea of a huge clutch save but I worry for it's viability as in the game's current meta, at end game the point seems to be either increase damage or go home, which means that with the introduction of being able to twist dailies together, most will be opting for an HG/AA twist which again still leaves DA fairly inept. Perhaps I'll be wrong there, that one is a bit situational to make a deffinite call with little more than hypothetical anecdotes. The 30% increase to the various encounter powers I feel will help out the lower iLevel DCs tremendously as well, so huge kudos on that one.
But I'm hoping these aren't all of the anticipated changes as there's still a great many DC feats, Powers, and some off hand weapon "feats" that just don't work. I won't bother reposting the list again as that would just be redundant. I also feel that both the DC heroic feats (specifically, Domain Synergy and Initiate of the Faith) need to be looked at and addressed as well as the Virtuous feats which seem to have been ignored since the level cap increase which has left that particular paragon path in a dismal state. But lastly, and again this is more echoing of what's already been said, the DO DC needs to be looked over and it needs desperately to be made relevant again. Even with these proposed changes, AC DC will remain superior to DO in every aspect of the game. I see some folks here pointing out Terrifying Insight and Brand of the Sun as a means for the DO to do more damage but feel the need to point out that due to BotS's DoT nature, and the fact that AC has Anointed Action, DO DC still loses the DPS race too. Throw on top of that, PoD not being worth anything if the group can hit the debuff cap, Hammer of Fate being extremely weak in just about every aspect (minus CC immunity in PvP) and there's just no real good reason to play a DO.
How you choose to address those things I will leave largely up to you (and if you insist I can indeed offer some hypothetical changes) but my point is, there are still many things that need to be addressed. Please don't let these proposed changes be the full extent of the long awaited "DC rebalance".
Member of Look Good Play Good Pup - Level 70 4.2k Buff/Debuff AC DC XBL GT: TehPuppy
I agree with removing the immortality effect, that is a good move. Not sure how much 20% will actually do, but will need to experiment with it. Given some of the hard hitting (e.g. Orcus, Storvald) I'm not sure one would notice it, but maybe that's the point. Interesting that the power buff element is retained. I suppose with the hitpoints for some of the bosses that's inevitable. I do think it is important that other routes to similar buffs are given. I am a bit uneasy about the damage boosts. Not that I don't agree with it from a soloing perspective, but with the right build a cleric can do very nice damage while still debuffing already, and in PVP you have some extremely dangerous damage cleric builds. 30% boost to that would be very strong. But hey - the world does need more clerics. Finally: as others have said - please fix or change the features that don't work. This really should require a big update. Hastening light, or the Divine Oracle overall just need some love. Good to see you aren't just nerfing but there needs to be regular small fixes and balancing done.
More thing that should be fixed: 1. Break the Spirit debuffs the targets dmg by 40% at rank 4 instead of the 50% promised by the tooltip(according to a recently posted guide on the arc forums) 2. the divinity version of sunburst doesn´t proc "infantile compensatio"(the active bonus of the owlbear cub companion)(from personal experiance)
with 5 sec, Divine armor seems to get too short a duration compared to other dailies. Also imo it should have kept its dmg resist boost. I mean, since its pure defense, it needs to be good at it to be worth useing...after all it will only get used in painfully slow runs with parties who can´t manage without.
About anoited armys defensive component: 1. I hope the graphics will show the correct number of orbs remaining again 2. keeping it at 100% mitigation and capping it at 20% target hp...just don´t like that approach, compared to just fixing the bug, it leaves it too strong in earlier/easier content, while making it way too weak against strong targets. I´d have preferred to see the mitigation toned down to a more reasonable level.
In general, I don´t like basing powers of targets HP, sort of forces players into focusing on this defensive stat.
Long ago (Module 5), there was a Neverwinter player named Kaelac. We at least ostensibly lost him to a PhD program, but while he was playing, his DC testing set a real standard for theorycraft.
I keep him and other founders on our guild roster out of courtesy. He can come back at any time
Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
Okay so, I am not a DC main, but I spent quite a few hours on my DC, and since you're reworking the class now, I think that it would kind of nice to make both of it's paragons viable. EVERYONE is okay with a 2k AC DC, but as soon as a BiS tank sees a 4k+ DO DC in group he leaves and tells me "I don't want to be dead". Personally, that is just rude, and that is why I suggest buffing DO DCs. So, DO DCs are supposed to make allies feel warmth of the Astral Sea... I'm not feeling any sea around one. So why not make some of their abilities have small additional effects that would buff up a bit? Finally, the Hammer of Fate. 10% AP regained on kill looks like a joke. In a party there is approximately 0,00005% chance (Same as an orange box drop from lockboxes) that you - as a DC - will get the last hit. Furthermore, the damage isn't that stunning and... that's about it. So why not make that ability COUNT? Worth using even if it's not going to be a last hit? I.e., increase the amount of damage that enemy takes for a few seconds(I.e. +20% damage taken)? Decrease the amount of damage he deals? Just make it do something useful not only for the DC, but for the team, right now all it really is, is a petty waste of AP from my perspective. And again, I do not main a DC, maybe for some it seems useful, but I really don't appreciate the power, so why don't you try making DO DC's powers more perspective and more powerful in some situations. I mean, AC DCs double and even more your power, and give a huge defensive bonus. DO DC's final daily can give 10% of your AP if it last hits an enemy and gives ONLY YOU some bonus DR and CC immunity.
Please consider this, I for one would love trying out a DO DC in the near future.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited February 2017
The changes are great i like how you are doing them, but still many things left, DC is probably now the class with less woden legs to balance it, great work.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Okay so, I am not a DC main, but I spent quite a few hours on my DC, and since you're reworking the class now, I think that it would kind of nice to make both of it's paragons viable. EVERYONE is okay with a 2k AC DC, but as soon as a BiS tank sees a 4k+ DO DC in group he leaves and tells me "I don't want to be dead". Personally, that is just rude, and that is why I suggest buffing DO DCs. So, DO DCs are supposed to make allies feel warmth of the Astral Sea... I'm not feeling any sea around one. So why not make some of their abilities have small additional effects that would buff up a bit? Finally, the Hammer of Fate. 10% AP regained on kill looks like a joke. In a party there is approximately 0,00005% chance (Same as an orange box drop from lockboxes) that you - as a DC - will get the last hit. Furthermore, the damage isn't that stunning and... that's about it. So why not make that ability COUNT? Worth using even if it's not going to be a last hit? I.e., increase the amount of damage that enemy takes for a few seconds(I.e. +20% damage taken)? Decrease the amount of damage he deals? Just make it do something useful not only for the DC, but for the team, right now all it really is, is a petty waste of AP from my perspective. And again, I do not main a DC, maybe for some it seems useful, but I really don't appreciate the power, so why don't you try making DO DC's powers more perspective and more powerful in some situations. I mean, AC DCs double and even more your power, and give a huge defensive bonus. DO DC's final daily can give 10% of your AP if it last hits an enemy and gives ONLY YOU some bonus DR and CC immunity.
Please consider this, I for one would love trying out a DO DC in the near future.
Some powers have pvp use and they are not so good in pve. MAelstorm of chaos and the hammer of fate do similar thing they are cc breakers-immunity and damage mitigation for the caster.
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
What kind of coward is too incompetent in their ability to tank without AA spam? I thought I was doing pretty well in eCC's final boss while everyone else was dead, and the entire floor was on fire.
good changes but AA still spammable :P im happy to see again Divine Armor alive
oh i forget this much truth here!
Video removed due to rule violation.
Ehh, I have to disagree on your point from the video. Content and class balance are both equally a huge problem in this game.
A lack of content leads to boredom. A lack of class diversity leads to boredom. If you can't play a build for your class that you enjoy, you will not enjoy the content anyway.
20% /charge is just rendering it useless in terms of adding survavibility, could just as well take it compleatly out, 20% on anything not tank is around 25-30 k. Npc's in CN/etos/ecc/ewd/HE's can actualy do hits over 200k (not even talking about SWA)
unless the buggs that exist are also adressed this atempt to ''rebalance'' the class will drive most DC's out the increase in base damage on most skills is necesary forsure but i fear not sufficient
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited February 2017
You know...I find the lack of whining here to be remarkable. AA is being nerfed, but quite frankly, the general consensus seems to be that this is the right thing to do. As for the 30% damage boost - I am most certainly not going to complain about that (although It uhm...might be a bit too much. (Sorry, my fellow DCs, but that's how I see it.)
However, there are a couple of more things that are needed - one is a change to HoF to make it useful in PvE - not just a PvP power. The DO needs something to compensate for AA and the power sharing of AC.. Second is a fix to a few of the old DC bugs.
With this, the DC will be in a good place.
Hoping for improvements...
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
To start with AA needs to be fixed - a power that is essentially being abused to grant semi-invulnerability is just as bad as the paladin perma-bubble was. It encourages bad gameplay by trivializing content.
I think a big difference between the paladin perma-bubble and DC AA spam is the ilvl required. At around 2.7 ilvl an OP could perma-bubble, requires at least .5 more ilvl to keep perma-AA up (both using a snail).
No, in all seriousness, I know GoF is wonderful, and is completely fine in PvE...but in PvP it just has the most superior healing in the game ( passively ). We can't just talk about PvE here...PvP is also a huge factor in this game, so let's talk about that.
So, I have no problem with it being 'the better spec'...but it literally has no competition towards any class/spec's healing. Paladins can pull off some nasty heals but they literally have to click buttons to do that ( only thing that doesn't need to be clicked is Bond of Virtue, maybe once...through out the whole game ). With Faithful capstone and the way it's designed, the only thing a cleric has to do is Dodge, put Empowered Astral Shield down, and that's basically it...with a pinch of dailies.
The only class they have to worry about in a real fight is Guardian Fighter ( Which is completely broken in all way shape and form ). The reason being is because Guardian Fighters have the ability to prone out of their Astral Shield. Great Weapons Fighters also can...but only with 1 paragon, Iron Vaguard, and the Daily Indomitable Strength. Guardian Fighters have ALL specs AND builds that can take people away from the fight and their 'safe zone'...which is dangerous news for a Cleric and everybody else.
Anyways, I'm still 90% sure that GoF can still multi proc. Which, I mean, it doesn't say that there is a duration on the limit, but that's also very bad if you think about it. Just not making it have any duration or ANY cooldown is straight out disgusting. I have seen the thing heal someone from 10% to full about 5 times in a row...It NEEDS atleast a 10 second cooldown.
Now, reason why i don't care for it in PvE...is because PvE is alllll about the majority of Bosses, Mobs, one hitting you ( which is where the GoF is useless ). In PvP there's only ONE class that can one shot you, and that's the Trickster Rogue. So, think about how many fights in PvP there are where when there's a good cleric next to you...you or/and who ever is playing the cleric, never loses the fight, unless the 2 classes I have said up above kills the cleric.
I'm just pointing out my experiences and what I think should be done to it in general.
@bvira is the DC expert, so she can criticize all she wants and help improve this post towards GoF.
P.S all the "PvP" fights i am mentioning are mainly about the players who know what they are doing.
vira is right about a lot of things u really should listen. most of our feats dont work at all or only for a part of what the tool tip says and looking from a pve point of these changes i see a few problems with what u wanting to do. mainly the lack of DO dc love. : divine armor only adding hp is 100% worse than it is now, at lest right now u can cast it in preparation for the next fight coming up and allows them to tank the first few blows from mobs. removing the DR part of this really makes DO DC have only 1 daily to use and that hollow ground and that daily does not carry with us any were : exultation needs to aoe heal or aoe buff cuz single target buff like it is makes it a useless skill when compaired to other skills in pve. : anointed army just needs to be put back to pre mod 9 were after 4 hits it is gone just dont let dots remove it and have it block about 60%-80% incoming damage puting it in line with pali bubble as a save your butt skill : a 30% incress to damage if fine very few run pure dps/buffing DC's like me and vira do, so this 30% incress will help out all that want to chose the other 2 paths : Prophecy of doom needs help sense it really dont work at all like the tool tip says and the feat for it dont work at all : warding flair does nothing good at all the shield is joke that skill needs to be redone completely : same with geas if u are a righteous dc your own burns will remove it when u cast it or your companion and there passives
i've played DC sense mod 2 and have always enjoyed it and rolled with any nerf/buff that was given to us i have never seen it as a useless class to add to your party because even as full dps i can still top heal charts ( power and crit make for some very very nice heals) or tanking charts(shield+ HG+ have faith+ AA+ divine glow+ exult +BTS all can be use to tank some of the hardest things in this game atm) if need. the biggest problem i seen from all the QQing about dc's is most simply dont know how to use them effectively at all, the class is like most of the others and if u simply dont know what u doing it will seem like u lacking alot but it u do know it seems really over powered.
the only way u can get a good read on what needs to be done will not come from these forums do to half just wanting to QQ and other half not wanting to give the whole truth cuz they dont want there class balanced into nothingness, u need to play live server with some of the veteran DC that can tell u and show u were everything needs a fix not just a nerf or buff but a true fix to some of the DC problems and complaints about the class. all in all tho this is a really good start to helping out DC overall.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
No, in all seriousness, I know GoF is wonderful, and is completely fine in PvE...but in PvP it just has the most superior healing in the game ( passively ). We can't just talk about PvE here...PvP is also a huge factor in this game, so let's talk about that.
So, I have no problem with it being 'the better spec'...but it literally has no competition towards any class/spec's healing. Paladins can pull off some nasty heals but they literally have to click buttons to do that ( only thing that doesn't need to be clicked is Bond of Virtue, maybe once...through out the whole game ). With Faithful capstone and the way it's designed, the only thing a cleric has to do is Dodge, put Empowered Astral Shield down, and that's basically it...with a pinch of dailies.
The only class they have to worry about in a real fight is Guardian Fighter ( Which is completely broken in all way shape and form ). The reason being is because Guardian Fighters have the ability to prone out of their Astral Shield. Great Weapons Fighters also can...but only with 1 paragon, Iron Vaguard, and the Daily Indomitable Strength. Guardian Fighters have ALL specs AND builds that can take people away from the fight and their 'safe zone'...which is dangerous news for a Cleric and everybody else.
Anyways, I'm still 90% sure that GoF can still multi proc. Which, I mean, it doesn't say that there is a duration on the limit, but that's also very bad if you think about it. Just not making it have any duration or ANY cooldown is straight out disgusting. I have seen the thing heal someone from 10% to full about 5 times in a row...It NEEDS atleast a 10 second cooldown.
Now, reason why i don't care for it in PvE...is because PvE is alllll about the majority of Bosses, Mobs, one hitting you ( which is where the GoF is useless ). In PvP there's only ONE class that can one shot you, and that's the Trickster Rogue. So, think about how many fights in PvP there are where when there's a good cleric next to you...you or/and who ever is playing the cleric, never loses the fight, unless the 2 classes I have said up above kills the cleric.
I'm just pointing out my experiences and what I think should be done to it in general.
@bvira is the DC expert, so she can criticize all she wants and help improve this post towards GoF.
P.S all the "PvP" fights i am mentioning are mainly about the players who know what they are doing.
That's not exactly how it works. GoF requires you to use healing spells to build up the resevoir of a heal called GoF. When it procs it unl oads the entire resevoir. ex. if you got 5M HP in the GoF bucket and it procs, it may only heal you for 100K, but it uses all 5M. The trick would be to get the GoF to proc on a team member, then you kill the cleric before they can build it back up. Also the nature of righteousness means its way easier to build up the pool of GoF by healing party members than the dc can by healing itself.
I'm not saying faithful doesn't need adjustment for PvP, i honestly don't know but its not a simple as you make it. And with DC's lack of cc abilities and immunity options, it is highly susceptible to cc unless geared specifically to counteract it (elven battle, cc resistant artifacts, etc)
I think @pitshade (maybe?) had some further repro-info on the Light of Divinity bug. There's something else to it that makes it like the usual proc-on-deflect-puts-you-in-combat. Some combination of things are trying to happen that the game interprets as being in combat.
I haven't done any testing, but I can say that the bug occurs when other people are around and never when my DC is by herself with the class feature slotted. There have been times when it didn't occur, perhaps no one was missing any health. The result of my 'testing' was to stop using it out of annoyance.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Anyway, I find the changes mostly to my liking. The AA resistance seems overly complicated and pushes the power as being more about the power share. Otherwise, I would add my voice to those asking for DO buffs (rework really when only one of their 6 paragon abilities is actually about the party - foresight) and for bug fixes across the board.
I would also like to see a change so that Divinity builds up outside of combat, perhaps not so quickly as to make managing it in a fight unimportant, but at least enough so that it does come back. Adventuring in the Sea of Moving Ice really was annoying on my DC - losing all divinity every time I have to sail someplace, but it's been an ongoing nuisance just because I hate sitting around PE with an unfilled divinity meter!
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited February 2017
WHAT i didnt like personal on the aa was: I JUST spam a daily giving power using encounters to boost my ap gain even when dont need and: call myself a buffer-debuffer when i provide just aa and nothing else. THAT was the biggest fail for me. Not even the hastening light?:PP
Clerics could use some love, for now they are nothing else than 'Shut up and take my immunity and extra power!'. I see the need AA to be toned down, but not in the suggested way. I wish to see a balance between protection and giving some little extra (it don't have to be power), but 20% of the targets max HP is to weak.
In the other way we have DA. 80% as temp HP? Orcus' finger of death will deal 800k before mitigation, 80% of my GFs HP are around 120K. For me it's no problem to deal with this, i'm a bunker who can survive A-bomb attacks. But my group isn't that heavy and they hardly will get a 90k protection, which is a joke on a direct hit. And we don't need to talk about FBI with this, even with full equip you can run into the mobs and yelling 'Here's your freekill!'.
About HG - 45 seconds cooldown, huh? And you can reduce it? Like your encounter powers with recovery? If that's so it need no cooldown, cause bondings will make it irrelevant. These HAMSTER little stones make everything obsolete, cooldowns don't exist if you use them. Gaining AP while it remains is a nice something but it still need some more work. A lot of skills (not only the cleric ones) give DR, which is useless for defence based classes. Most of this defence based classes don't deal much damage, so the second effect of HG is useless too. Why not change it to 'enemies deal X% less damage while affected ba HG'? Yea, damage buff could stay if it have to.. But you know what i mean.
I would prefer a total rework of all daylies (AC and DO!), adjust it to the current state of the game. (And you can nerf bondings too while doing so, cause more adjusting is needed.)
The offensive capability of AA for pve is a huge buff which scales off power. That itself is entirely wrong and even if you remotely think power share is fine from all sources (which i totally don't), this daily is just going to get stronger than ever over time as more and more sources of power come about. About Divine Armor, pls reconsider removing temp hp and using shield hp(the blue overlaying hp). There is so many probs with temp hp and earlier i had spoken from a tanks perspective but gwf's will also have issues with this as mentioned by a few ppl here and i still don't feel this is the supposedly life saver daily you are making it out to be only because it is still requires a dc to position and cast this, so while this has a huge aoe, it takes a small amount of time for the dc to get it going so this is more like a preemptive daily. If you want this to be the thing dc's can rely on the "OH **** moments" , this needs to be instant and you have to remove that positioning system and rather just make it a straight off shield buff given to all allies 90 feet in all direction from the dc.
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forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
No, in all seriousness, I know GoF is wonderful, and is completely fine in PvE...but in PvP it just has the most superior healing in the game ( passively ). We can't just talk about PvE here...PvP is also a huge factor in this game, so let's talk about that.
So, I have no problem with it being 'the better spec'...but it literally has no competition towards any class/spec's healing. Paladins can pull off some nasty heals but they literally have to click buttons to do that ( only thing that doesn't need to be clicked is Bond of Virtue, maybe once...through out the whole game ). With Faithful capstone and the way it's designed, the only thing a cleric has to do is Dodge, put Empowered Astral Shield down, and that's basically it...with a pinch of dailies.
The only class they have to worry about in a real fight is Guardian Fighter ( Which is completely broken in all way shape and form ). The reason being is because Guardian Fighters have the ability to prone out of their Astral Shield. Great Weapons Fighters also can...but only with 1 paragon, Iron Vaguard, and the Daily Indomitable Strength. Guardian Fighters have ALL specs AND builds that can take people away from the fight and their 'safe zone'...which is dangerous news for a Cleric and everybody else.
Anyways, I'm still 90% sure that GoF can still multi proc. Which, I mean, it doesn't say that there is a duration on the limit, but that's also very bad if you think about it. Just not making it have any duration or ANY cooldown is straight out disgusting. I have seen the thing heal someone from 10% to full about 5 times in a row...It NEEDS atleast a 10 second cooldown.
Now, reason why i don't care for it in PvE...is because PvE is alllll about the majority of Bosses, Mobs, one hitting you ( which is where the GoF is useless ). In PvP there's only ONE class that can one shot you, and that's the Trickster Rogue. So, think about how many fights in PvP there are where when there's a good cleric next to you...you or/and who ever is playing the cleric, never loses the fight, unless the 2 classes I have said up above kills the cleric.
I'm just pointing out my experiences and what I think should be done to it in general.
@bvira is the DC expert, so she can criticize all she wants and help improve this post towards GoF.
P.S all the "PvP" fights i am mentioning are mainly about the players who know what they are doing.
That's not exactly how it works. GoF requires you to use healing spells to build up the resevoir of a heal called GoF. When it procs it unl oads the entire resevoir. ex. if you got 5M HP in the GoF bucket and it procs, it may only heal you for 100K, but it uses all 5M. The trick would be to get the GoF to proc on a team member, then you kill the cleric before they can build it back up. Also the nature of righteousness means its way easier to build up the pool of GoF by healing party members than the dc can by healing itself.
I'm not saying faithful doesn't need adjustment for PvP, i honestly don't know but its not a simple as you make it. And with DC's lack of cc abilities and immunity options, it is highly susceptible to cc unless geared specifically to counteract it (elven battle, cc resistant artifacts, etc)
Well, tweaking GoF in a way that it only affects PvP isn't really that hard, assuming it respects healing depression, but it would require Cryptic to update it every so often. Add a cap to it. Make it, idk, 200-250K. I don't think I ever saw anyone able to stack much more HP's than that, and an emergency heal in PvP of 100-125K is still good for anyone, assuming they have enough LS.
Wolves, big as a horse! I need new pants!
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forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
I would also like to see a change so that Divinity builds up outside of combat, perhaps not so quickly as to make managing it in a fight unimportant, but at least enough so that it does come back. Adventuring in the Sea of Moving Ice really was annoying on my DC - losing all divinity every time I have to sail someplace, but it's been an ongoing nuisance just because I hate sitting around PE with an unfilled divinity meter!
This thing right here. Yes, for the love of Tymora, please.
Wolves, big as a horse! I need new pants!
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ichimaruginxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 230Arc User
I love the change to Divine Armor as well, but 45s CD for Hallowed Ground is a bit too much imo; I would suggest 30s.
Keep in mind that 45 seconds is only the base cooldown time. If you have a decent amount of cooldown reduction—as many clerics do—this cooldown will be significantly lower. In general, when we discussed these changes, we aimed for a cooldown that resulted in being able to cast Hallowed Ground about as often as you currently can on live whether you're just leveling up, or you're running a full recovery / AP gain build.
The big difference is that with AP gain no longer blocked after using Hallowed Ground, you'll potentially be able to build up your AP and weave in another daily before building it back up and dropping Hallowed Ground once it's off cooldown. The end result is a similar uptime to what's live while not blocking your AP gain.
As many have stated, the changes are a step in the right direction. But I felt that the HG cd will make DO DCs buffing capability less than AC DCs.
AA while with immunity gone, can still provide 100% uptime on the power buff if they spam it like they do currently. As of before, the buff is ROUGHLY equivalent to HG's buff. But now that HG has a 45sec cooldown, DO DCs who doesn't have access to AA can only cast 1 HG per 45secs regardless of their AP gain, which makes them inferior to the 100% buff uptime of AC DCs.
Currently, I am able to chain 2 HGs with my DC artifact before I ran out and need to gain AP, which is usually enough for boss fight for normal t2s (Not including FBI etc). I think the change for HG is a take for the worse here. Now, DO DCs will not be able to provide the big chunk of buff which they used to. Since it certainly didn't take me 30 secs to gain my ap back after the 15 sec of HG uptime!
So, we, DO DCs, will not be able to cast HG as much as we currently can with the upcoming changes. A solution would be reducing the HG cooldown or introducing a cooldown for AA so that DO DCs can be as competitive as AC DCs in terms of buffing.
I really appreciate the changes for other parts and thanks for the hardwork! But as someone who plays a DO DC, I'm concerned for our main buffing daily and hope it won't mean it will put DO in a less viable position than it is now (Which is already pretty hard).
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And no, divine glow still doesn't proc weapon enchants.
These changes are a good step in the right direction. They are changes that will address some of the overbalancing issues particularly in regards to Anointed Army spam while not being so overly heavy handed as to make the daily completely useless. I think the change to Divine Armor is super solid, I like the idea of a huge clutch save but I worry for it's viability as in the game's current meta, at end game the point seems to be either increase damage or go home, which means that with the introduction of being able to twist dailies together, most will be opting for an HG/AA twist which again still leaves DA fairly inept. Perhaps I'll be wrong there, that one is a bit situational to make a deffinite call with little more than hypothetical anecdotes. The 30% increase to the various encounter powers I feel will help out the lower iLevel DCs tremendously as well, so huge kudos on that one.
But I'm hoping these aren't all of the anticipated changes as there's still a great many DC feats, Powers, and some off hand weapon "feats" that just don't work. I won't bother reposting the list again as that would just be redundant. I also feel that both the DC heroic feats (specifically, Domain Synergy and Initiate of the Faith) need to be looked at and addressed as well as the Virtuous feats which seem to have been ignored since the level cap increase which has left that particular paragon path in a dismal state. But lastly, and again this is more echoing of what's already been said, the DO DC needs to be looked over and it needs desperately to be made relevant again. Even with these proposed changes, AC DC will remain superior to DO in every aspect of the game. I see some folks here pointing out Terrifying Insight and Brand of the Sun as a means for the DO to do more damage but feel the need to point out that due to BotS's DoT nature, and the fact that AC has Anointed Action, DO DC still loses the DPS race too. Throw on top of that, PoD not being worth anything if the group can hit the debuff cap, Hammer of Fate being extremely weak in just about every aspect (minus CC immunity in PvP) and there's just no real good reason to play a DO.
How you choose to address those things I will leave largely up to you (and if you insist I can indeed offer some hypothetical changes) but my point is, there are still many things that need to be addressed. Please don't let these proposed changes be the full extent of the long awaited "DC rebalance".
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Interesting that the power buff element is retained. I suppose with the hitpoints for some of the bosses that's inevitable. I do think it is important that other routes to similar buffs are given.
I am a bit uneasy about the damage boosts. Not that I don't agree with it from a soloing perspective, but with the right build a cleric can do very nice damage while still debuffing already, and in PVP you have some extremely dangerous damage cleric builds. 30% boost to that would be very strong. But hey - the world does need more clerics.
Finally: as others have said - please fix or change the features that don't work. This really should require a big update. Hastening light, or the Divine Oracle overall just need some love. Good to see you aren't just nerfing but there needs to be regular small fixes and balancing done.
1. Break the Spirit debuffs the targets dmg by 40% at rank 4 instead of the 50% promised by the tooltip(according to a recently posted guide on the arc forums)
2. the divinity version of sunburst doesn´t proc "infantile compensatio"(the active bonus of the owlbear cub companion)(from personal experiance)
with 5 sec, Divine armor seems to get too short a duration compared to other dailies. Also imo it should have kept its dmg resist boost. I mean, since its pure defense, it needs to be good at it to be worth useing...after all it will only get used in painfully slow runs with parties who can´t manage without.
About anoited armys defensive component:
1. I hope the graphics will show the correct number of orbs remaining again
2. keeping it at 100% mitigation and capping it at 20% target hp...just don´t like that approach, compared to just fixing the bug, it leaves it too strong in earlier/easier content, while making it way too weak against strong targets.
I´d have preferred to see the mitigation toned down to a more reasonable level.
In general, I don´t like basing powers of targets HP, sort of forces players into focusing on this defensive stat.
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Okay so, I am not a DC main, but I spent quite a few hours on my DC, and since you're reworking the class now, I think that it would kind of nice to make both of it's paragons viable. EVERYONE is okay with a 2k AC DC, but as soon as a BiS tank sees a 4k+ DO DC in group he leaves and tells me "I don't want to be dead". Personally, that is just rude, and that is why I suggest buffing DO DCs. So, DO DCs are supposed to make allies feel warmth of the Astral Sea... I'm not feeling any sea around one. So why not make some of their abilities have small additional effects that would buff up a bit? Finally, the Hammer of Fate. 10% AP regained on kill looks like a joke. In a party there is approximately 0,00005% chance (Same as an orange box drop from lockboxes) that you - as a DC - will get the last hit. Furthermore, the damage isn't that stunning and... that's about it. So why not make that ability COUNT? Worth using even if it's not going to be a last hit? I.e., increase the amount of damage that enemy takes for a few seconds(I.e. +20% damage taken)? Decrease the amount of damage he deals? Just make it do something useful not only for the DC, but for the team, right now all it really is, is a petty waste of AP from my perspective. And again, I do not main a DC, maybe for some it seems useful, but I really don't appreciate the power, so why don't you try making DO DC's powers more perspective and more powerful in some situations. I mean, AC DCs double and even more your power, and give a huge defensive bonus. DO DC's final daily can give 10% of your AP if it last hits an enemy and gives ONLY YOU some bonus DR and CC immunity.
Please consider this, I for one would love trying out a DO DC in the near future.
oh i forget this
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Taylor DC/DO & AC Buff/Debuff - Guild Gutbusters Brigade - PVE
A lack of content leads to boredom. A lack of class diversity leads to boredom. If you can't play a build for your class that you enjoy, you will not enjoy the content anyway.
20% /charge is just rendering it useless in terms of adding survavibility, could just as well take it compleatly out,
20% on anything not tank is around 25-30 k. Npc's in CN/etos/ecc/ewd/HE's can actualy do hits over 200k (not even talking about SWA)
unless the buggs that exist are also adressed this atempt to ''rebalance'' the class will drive most DC's out
the increase in base damage on most skills is necesary forsure but i fear not sufficient
However, there are a couple of more things that are needed - one is a change to HoF to make it useful in PvE - not just a PvP power. The DO needs something to compensate for AA and the power sharing of AC.. Second is a fix to a few of the old DC bugs.
With this, the DC will be in a good place.
FIX GIFT OF FAITH MULTI PROCS!
No, in all seriousness, I know GoF is wonderful, and is completely fine in PvE...but in PvP it just has the most superior healing in the game ( passively ). We can't just talk about PvE here...PvP is also a huge factor in this game, so let's talk about that.
So, I have no problem with it being 'the better spec'...but it literally has no competition towards any class/spec's healing. Paladins can pull off some nasty heals but they literally have to click buttons to do that ( only thing that doesn't need to be clicked is Bond of Virtue, maybe once...through out the whole game ). With Faithful capstone and the way it's designed, the only thing a cleric has to do is Dodge, put Empowered Astral Shield down, and that's basically it...with a pinch of dailies.
The only class they have to worry about in a real fight is Guardian Fighter ( Which is completely broken in all way shape and form ). The reason being is because Guardian Fighters have the ability to prone out of their Astral Shield. Great Weapons Fighters also can...but only with 1 paragon, Iron Vaguard, and the Daily Indomitable Strength. Guardian Fighters have ALL specs AND builds that can take people away from the fight and their 'safe zone'...which is dangerous news for a Cleric and everybody else.
Anyways, I'm still 90% sure that GoF can still multi proc. Which, I mean, it doesn't say that there is a duration on the limit, but that's also very bad if you think about it. Just not making it have any duration or ANY cooldown is straight out disgusting. I have seen the thing heal someone from 10% to full about 5 times in a row...It NEEDS atleast a 10 second cooldown.
Now, reason why i don't care for it in PvE...is because PvE is alllll about the majority of Bosses, Mobs, one hitting you ( which is where the GoF is useless ). In PvP there's only ONE class that can one shot you, and that's the Trickster Rogue. So, think about how many fights in PvP there are where when there's a good cleric next to you...you or/and who ever is playing the cleric, never loses the fight, unless the 2 classes I have said up above kills the cleric.
I'm just pointing out my experiences and what I think should be done to it in general.
@bvira is the DC expert, so she can criticize all she wants and help improve this post towards GoF.
P.S all the "PvP" fights i am mentioning are mainly about the players who know what they are doing.
mainly the lack of DO dc love.
: divine armor only adding hp is 100% worse than it is now, at lest right now u can cast it in preparation for the next fight coming up and allows them to tank the first few blows from mobs. removing the DR part of this really makes DO DC have only 1 daily to use and that hollow ground and that daily does not carry with us any were
: exultation needs to aoe heal or aoe buff cuz single target buff like it is makes it a useless skill when compaired to other skills in pve.
: anointed army just needs to be put back to pre mod 9 were after 4 hits it is gone just dont let dots remove it and have it block about 60%-80% incoming damage puting it in line with pali bubble as a save your butt skill
: a 30% incress to damage if fine very few run pure dps/buffing DC's like me and vira do, so this 30% incress will help out all that want to chose the other 2 paths
: Prophecy of doom needs help sense it really dont work at all like the tool tip says and the feat for it dont work at all
: warding flair does nothing good at all the shield is joke that skill needs to be redone completely
: same with geas if u are a righteous dc your own burns will remove it when u cast it or your companion and there passives
i've played DC sense mod 2 and have always enjoyed it and rolled with any nerf/buff that was given to us i have never seen it as a useless class to add to your party because even as full dps i can still top heal charts ( power and crit make for some very very nice heals) or tanking charts(shield+ HG+ have faith+ AA+ divine glow+ exult +BTS all can be use to tank some of the hardest things in this game atm) if need.
the biggest problem i seen from all the QQing about dc's is most simply dont know how to use them effectively at all, the class is like most of the others and if u simply dont know what u doing it will seem like u lacking alot but it u do know it seems really over powered.
the only way u can get a good read on what needs to be done will not come from these forums do to half just wanting to QQ and other half not wanting to give the whole truth cuz they dont want there class balanced into nothingness, u need to play live server with some of the veteran DC that can tell u and show u were everything needs a fix not just a nerf or buff but a true fix to some of the DC problems and complaints about the class. all in all tho this is a really good start to helping out DC overall.
I'm not saying faithful doesn't need adjustment for PvP, i honestly don't know but its not a simple as you make it. And with DC's lack of cc abilities and immunity options, it is highly susceptible to cc unless geared specifically to counteract it (elven battle, cc resistant artifacts, etc)
I would also like to see a change so that Divinity builds up outside of combat, perhaps not so quickly as to make managing it in a fight unimportant, but at least enough so that it does come back. Adventuring in the Sea of Moving Ice really was annoying on my DC - losing all divinity every time I have to sail someplace, but it's been an ongoing nuisance just because I hate sitting around PE with an unfilled divinity meter!
In the other way we have DA. 80% as temp HP? Orcus' finger of death will deal 800k before mitigation, 80% of my GFs HP are around 120K. For me it's no problem to deal with this, i'm a bunker who can survive A-bomb attacks. But my group isn't that heavy and they hardly will get a 90k protection, which is a joke on a direct hit.
And we don't need to talk about FBI with this, even with full equip you can run into the mobs and yelling 'Here's your freekill!'.
About HG - 45 seconds cooldown, huh? And you can reduce it? Like your encounter powers with recovery? If that's so it need no cooldown, cause bondings will make it irrelevant. These HAMSTER little stones make everything obsolete, cooldowns don't exist if you use them.
Gaining AP while it remains is a nice something but it still need some more work. A lot of skills (not only the cleric ones) give DR, which is useless for defence based classes. Most of this defence based classes don't deal much damage, so the second effect of HG is useless too. Why not change it to 'enemies deal X% less damage while affected ba HG'? Yea, damage buff could stay if it have to.. But you know what i mean.
I would prefer a total rework of all daylies (AC and DO!), adjust it to the current state of the game. (And you can nerf bondings too while doing so, cause more adjusting is needed.)
About Divine Armor, pls reconsider removing temp hp and using shield hp(the blue overlaying hp). There is so many probs with temp hp and earlier i had spoken from a tanks perspective but gwf's will also have issues with this as mentioned by a few ppl here and i still don't feel this is the supposedly life saver daily you are making it out to be only because it is still requires a dc to position and cast this, so while this has a huge aoe, it takes a small amount of time for the dc to get it going so this is more like a preemptive daily. If you want this to be the thing dc's can rely on the "OH **** moments" , this needs to be instant and you have to remove that positioning system and rather just make it a straight off shield buff given to all allies 90 feet in all direction from the dc.
Add a cap to it.
Make it, idk, 200-250K. I don't think I ever saw anyone able to stack much more HP's than that, and an emergency heal in PvP of 100-125K is still good for anyone, assuming they have enough LS.
As many have stated, the changes are a step in the right direction. But I felt that the HG cd will make DO DCs buffing capability less than AC DCs.
AA while with immunity gone, can still provide 100% uptime on the power buff if they spam it like they do currently. As of before, the buff is ROUGHLY equivalent to HG's buff. But now that HG has a 45sec cooldown, DO DCs who doesn't have access to AA can only cast 1 HG per 45secs regardless of their AP gain, which makes them inferior to the 100% buff uptime of AC DCs.
Currently, I am able to chain 2 HGs with my DC artifact before I ran out and need to gain AP, which is usually enough for boss fight for normal t2s (Not including FBI etc). I think the change for HG is a take for the worse here. Now, DO DCs will not be able to provide the big chunk of buff which they used to. Since it certainly didn't take me 30 secs to gain my ap back after the 15 sec of HG uptime!
So, we, DO DCs, will not be able to cast HG as much as we currently can with the upcoming changes. A solution would be reducing the HG cooldown or introducing a cooldown for AA so that DO DCs can be as competitive as AC DCs in terms of buffing.
I really appreciate the changes for other parts and thanks for the hardwork! But as someone who plays a DO DC, I'm concerned for our main buffing daily and hope it won't mean it will put DO in a less viable position than it is now (Which is already pretty hard).
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