Please revamp whole heroic feat and powers for DC so that increasing il does net us improvement. Currently only with AA we have a capstone to work with (40k base power), else from that 4k il DC and 2k il DC doesnt have any difference. Some feats like 20% of power into defense or vice versa or into recovery or crit or movement speed or even arp is good for us. Please consider this ty.
In conclusion, we fellow DCs hope our new paragon feats have 3 main path, the buff/utility virtuous, the healing/protection failthful and the dps/debuff righteous. Please do not give us junk feat that only trigger below 25% hp, as a DC, we heal and lifesteal, we will never get our hp below 50%, ty. Please also consider improve Repurpose soul or make another t2 version into righteous path so that we can do dps and healing at the same time like what our paragon path wrote. Ty.
I'm not DC but as tank I like these changes. So, I hope tanking and team protection will become much more interesting due to the fact that DCs will not have ability to make your team immortal
Also I would like to ask some questions: 1) Will AA be twice less effective in PvP? I mean healing in PvP is reduced twice and will AA absorb 10% of target's health or it still will be 20%? 2) Will "stun" of DCs be fixed in PvE? For example in FBI many DCs now use some abilities to stun last boss. It makes this dungeon not so interesting.
1) It's not healing, it's damage absorption so it shouldn't be affected unless it's bugged.
looks like most of dcs will just switch to dps ,buffer debuffer only reason why most of ppl played dc was AA i cant see any point of it now since we never needed dc for heals we needed it for aa
As part of the ongoing effort to balance classes in Neverwinter, we are looking at the Devoted Cleric and its role and viability in group and solo content. The main issues being addressed are Daily power imbalances and the solo experience.
[...]
I'm more or less fine with the changes. A more systematic approach could include the revision of the virtuous path by increasing the damage mitigation provided by "unbreakable devotion". Currently the level of mitigation from unbreakable devotion is quite low and it's not used in PvE, but it could be an add-on top of the new AA. In this scenario, I would review geas and warding flare too in way that only if you have a virtuous build then you can mitigate more combining feats and powers.
In this case a DC - both DO and AC - can decide to focus on the damage mitigation instead of (de)buffing/healing. The cost of such choice is that the DC have to give up the main buff/debuff feats from the righteous path in order to combine the new AA with a further stack of damage mitigation while on the other hand the DC can support better OP and GF and instead of the DPS classes. Groups made of more than 5 players may want to have two different kind of DCs instead of buffers only, creating more variety of choices in the game.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
thanks for the changes. the damage increase was needed.
afew other things you should look at:
Feats:
off hand class feature bonuses
Holy resolve also have internal 5 min cool down
Domain synergy, not clear what 5% recovery it increase
Intiath of faith, the numbers are very low.
Piercing light 10% is too low for 5 feat points.
Unbreakble devotion 50% of damage abosrb is too low for 5 points feat
Virutes gift and Gift of life are not effective
Powers:
Divine sun burst is too weak, the heals and the damge needs to be stronger
Divine healing word is too weak, the temp HP do not stuck
Empower Searing light is too weak, need to be 3X stronger or do a piercing damage
Geas threshold is too weak. especialy if u r rightous
warding flare doing same as astral shield but weaker with longer cool time. it need to do something else.
Light of divinity is too weak
Annonited holy symbol is too weak
Annonited action time is too short and buff is too weak
Exaltation don't generate AP, it's also hard to aim at PVE with all the companions
you should consider the companion buff in general and not nerf DC powers one by one
Companion is level 40 max and should recive buffs propotional to his level. L40 companion should be around 5% of total buff (compare to L70). so total regain of Bonding will not be above 15%. (now its 300%)
anyway, let us still heal the companions and buff them.
Plz cryptic can you nerf/debug "Geas" ! How is it that we can use it on Druffi / Goristo / Svardbog! Omg wtf serious or you saw that you can immobilize a boss continuously? Really the skill of HAMSTER that just serves all to succeed without thinking and without playing
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Plz cryptic can you nerf/debug "Geas" ! How is it that we can use it on Druffi / Goristo / Svardbog! Omg wtf serious or you saw that you can immobilize a boss continuously? Really the skill of HAMSTER that just serves all to succeed without thinking and without playing
Power should be shanked anyway. It's horribly situational and there's no real reason for it to be used other than flat out abuse. There are no super elites in dungeons or anything of the sort.
As a cleric these changes seem to be really good, i mean who doesnt want 30% more power right.
But looking at this from the view of other clases it becomes a very different asspect.
But then you talk about trying to balance the clases.
From the view of a DPS class this still seems fair because even at 30% there not going to get close enough to challeng the scoreboard and its the job of the support clases to look after them in dungeons etc.
OP/GF since mod 10.5 when the OP recieved yet another nerf there survivabillity has rellied alot on the cleric supporting them to tank. Also the DPS on the pally and GF was cut dramatically. Since then i see scoreboards where the clerics are already matching the damage which is where the balance comes into play. If you now go and nerf the AA and give the clerics DPS without adjusting the OP and GF you may aswell be nerfing the tanks again.
IF gf didnt learn the fight against orcus doesnt mean the class need the annointed army. A Dc can cover a weak gf with other tools like astral shield and divine glow and help to reduce the damage with break the spirit and buff with hallowed ground the dr. WITH those tools if gf do not blocking the attacks is his own fault.
ONE note: before the nerf on paladin needed more skill to protect yourself as gf than as paly. now you need more skill as paladin than as gf.
to put AA and DO on the same level be a mistake specially if buffs from both paths can be added to each other. Cause all group content will have 2 DCs...
Depending the ILVL and if PVP/PVE players, in my opinion one path has to be better than this other one. It doesnt mean that some adjustement are not needed, but create 2 powerfull and complementary DCs will kill at least a character class-
Divine Armor no longer grants Damage Resistance. Instead, it grants targets 50% of their maximum hit points as Temporary Hit Points (up from 20%) for 5 seconds, plus an additional 10% per rank, to a maximum of 80% of the target’s maximum hit points.
This will be very anoying if they dont fix the unstoppable bug!
Also I would like to write that it is very good in my opinion that devs are going to make daily powers "unspamable" I hope that and other classes will be affected by this later
Were did you get, that daily powers are no longer spamable? They did put a CD on HG, thats it. Before you did not build AP, when HG was active, so now you get MORE AP, if you use HG.
some good suggestions like add Brand of the sun to 30 percent or share the terrifying insight to the group. Avatar should be permanently or you should get a chance of Piercing Damage.
I'm an DO cleric 3.7k buf/debuff dps and I was never a haste cleric and I don't want to be an AA cleric.
The only thing I miss is:
Anointed Armor
we have Foresight but it lacks AC.
would be nice if AC could also be added to Foresight so it's easier to survive. At 3.7 k with Bonding 12 I have not big Problems - but before I reached 3.4k it was very hard because I get aggro alot and instead of helping the group I have to help myself..... If AC could not be added would be cool if we get more deflect with every rank so we also can help the group while healing them. Or we can share 1 or 2 AC to the group?
Prophetic Action could be replaced - not sure if there is one cleric using this?
Because of DPS and healing (I crit heal) I get aggro alot and it's hard to survive if the tank is not good - So I have to survive myself instead of helping the group(now with bondings 12 doable.....).
(your updates are also very positive and usefull) but we need more.
for first:
add more survavity to Exaltation ( maybe give immunity back, no? )
rework Prophetic Action (block only that damage what is 75% bigger then allies HP or can lead to their death. make lesser CD (about 45 sec)
nice to have:
+5/10/15% critical severity in heroic
increase deflect chance in heroic
remove CD for Avatar (if you really want to give us make damage as other classes)
add CD for "Gift of Faith" (about 45 sec, or let it removes when you leave a fight (for PVP))
divine mechanic and divinity gain bonuses. scale of divinity is not filled when you already have 3 divine symbols. so in way when you want to increase your divinity gain bonus this don't have an effect. your divine 'overflow' just disappears because of this. Only with Brand of the Sun you can avoid this (or if you will use only 1 or 2 pluses, not all 3 in one procast). So I think if scale will fill when you already have 3 symbols active bonuses from Divine, Bountiful Fortune and Gift of the Gods will be more usefull (not in Oracle builds only).
fix
annointed action
ancient warding (+increase TempHits added for this feat)
prophecy of doom recharge (or make lesser CD)
need rework
Searing Light (Empowered) - its damage too low
Second Sight - useless
Living Fire - useless
thanks.
"sometimes the world doesn't need another hero, sometimes what it needs is a monster"
Okay this got a little long. This is a giant rambling mess that I will try to improve with some color and formatting. It is just some brainstormy ideas about what would be better fixes for DC than the currently discussed changes. Yes they would take a lot more work, but they could actually solve the issues. The currently proposed changes won’t solve anything, other than AA basically being an exploit, it should solve that.
I think it should be priority to fix the DC class feats to increase Cleric solo damage, rather than just give them a broad stroke of "+30% damage increase". If these changes go live, DCs will start stomping DPS charts, it may take a couple weeks, but they will. Healing spec DCs do need help, but you need to consider how strong this will make DPS spec DCs. A better solution would be to give healing spec clerics a buff to damage, not all clerics. There are many places where this can be done, since the feat trees are cluttered with useless garbage or stuff that doesn't even work:
Stats are given 2k item level through 4k item level
Healing Action: Not Bad Greater Fortune: Tooltip needs reworked, since it shouldn't mention "Your Wisdom". Also increased healing numbers are mostly useless, but otherwise not a horrible feat. Toughness: Great Feat Holy Resolve: Great Feat Domain Synergy: Weak Feat, Gives aprox 200-400 Recovery Weapon Master: Great Feat Initiate of the Faith: Weak Feat, Gives aprox 100-500 Crit Repurpose Soul: Not Bad, Tooltip is wrong, it seems based off of weapon damage, not actual spell damage. If it were based off of spell damage it would be a great feat. Battlewise: Terrabad Feat, reduced threat is not only useless, but bad. As a DC you are actually the best equipped (besides tank/off-tank) to withstand mobs aggroing you. Any cleric that takes this is hurting their team. Cleanse: Good Feat, I hate to admit it, but this is better than I used to admit, I personally do not use it on my main, but most clerics should be using this. Templar's Domain: Terrabad Feat, either you ignore resistance ignored, or you cap it. Nobody wants to randomly fluctuate between doing damage and doing nothing. This either needs to be a user's benefit debuff (like Terrifying Insight), or needs completely reworked. Bountiful Fortune: Great Feat
Only one real path exists through these feats, and nothing really stands out to help a low gear cleric get to level 70. Damage should be added to this section. The best solution would likely be adding decent flat damage to healing/dps powers similar to the Righteous feat Fire of the Gods.
Example of a decent heroic tree: Healing Action: Gain 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5% of your action points when using a healing spell on an ally Greater Fortune: Increase healing and damage dealt by 1/2/3% Toughness: Increase your Maximum Hit Points by 3/6/9% Holy Resolve: Gain 5/10/15% of your Maximum Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points when you drop below 30% Hit Points. Has a 5 minute cooldown. Domain Synergy: After casting a healing power you gain a stack of Domain Synergy max of 5 stacks. Damaging an enemy with one of your powers expends all stacks of Domain Synergy to deal 40/80/120/160/200% of your weapon damage per stack. Weapon Master: Increase your Critical Chance by 1/2/3% Initiate of the Faith: Your healing spells heal 2/5/8/11/15% of your target's missing Hit Points. Has a 10 second cooldown. Repurpose Soul: When a nearby enemy is killed, you heal all nearby allies for 1/2/3% of their maximum hit points. You gain 5/10/15% increased movement speed for 3 seconds after this effect. Allies receive half this bonus. Battlewise: When you enter combat, you gain 10/20/30% increased movement speed that decays over 3 seconds. When this effect expires, you regain 40/80/120% of a single divine power meter. Has a 25 second cooldown. Cleanse: When you Heal an ally you have a 10/20/30% chance to remove a Damage Over Time effect from an ally. Upon cleansing an ally, they take 50% less damage for 5 seconds. Cannot cleanse the same ally more than once within 20 seconds. Templar's Domain: Your at-will powers deal piercing damage equal to 20/40/60/80/100% of your weapon damage. At maximum divine power, your damaging encounter powers deal 40/80/120/160/200% increased damage. Bountiful Fortune:Gain 3/6/9/12/15% more divine power.
With something like this, at least clerics have a few options. Obviously I am just throwing numbers around, and most of these are probably unbalanced, but they could at least be adjusted in a meaningful way to make them viable, rather than having increases to useless stats, or by meaningless amounts. These types of changes could potentially also solve the healer spec DCs slow leveling, without causing high end DPS clerics to start out-damaging... well literally everyone.
Now as far as the Anointed Army vs. Hallowed Ground changes are concerned, I love it. I love the changes, but you are forgetting something. This isn't a contest between Anointed Army and Hallowed Ground. It is a contest between Anointed Army and Hammer of Fate. ALL clerics get Hallowed Ground, it doesn't even matter if it is balanced vs. Anointed Army or not. Anointed Army SHOULD be better than Hallowed Ground, or at least have some niche use that DO cannot fill. If it is going to outshine literally everything else a cleric can do, Hammer of Fate (or some other DO power) should also outshine literally everything else a cleric can do.
Anointed Champion: Encounter: Exaltation - Extremely Hard to use, but a decent buff. Doesn't see much use, since it is basically impossible to use. Class Feature: Anointed Action - Either the duration or the damage amount seems a little low unless it's is designed for perma daily tactics. As far as I can tell, it has issues proccing properly with some dailies. At-Will: Blessing of Battle - Not great. (the feat is the only good part) Class Feature: Anointed Armor - Decent deflection bonus for some pvp builds. Completely useless everywhere else. Daily: Anointed Army - Most powerful damage buff in the game. Good mitigation (even after nerf). CC Immunity. Overloaded power. Does everything. Class Feature: Anointed Holy Symbol - Haven't used it enough to get any idea on it's actual strength, but it seemed worthless when we are always slotting Divine Fortune and Holy Fervor for max AP gain
Feat: Battle Fervor - One of the best feats in the game. Grants 15% of your power to allies on the use of a specific at-will that you probably wouldn't use otherwise. Extremely powerful party buff. Not even optional. Feat: Prestigious Exaltation - As stated previously, Exaltation is too hard to use, but with that said, this feat doesn't really add much to the power. Feat: Ancient Warding - Adds a very minor, but existent buff to the most powerful buff in the game because it needed to be that 1% stronger. Not particularly good, but not bad either.
Overall the AC outshines everything the generic cleric has to offer with a single daily, and feat. A single AC DC can increase party DPS more than a generic DC using Hallowed Ground, not only that, but they can have a higher up-time too. Add in the fact that they have a feat that increases party power on top of that, they are nearly impossible to beat as far as buffs go. I would consider them unbeatable, but some might argue with that.
Divine Oracle: Encounter: Prophecy of Doom - Most of this power doesn't work. That is not the issue though. Even if it all still worked, it is too slow to cast in any solo content, and then is useless in large groups due to the debuff limit. Class Feature: Foresight - That amount of Damage Resistance is laughable in any PVE content. At-Will: Brand of the Sun - Fun to use, decent damage over time. 10/10 Class Feature: Terrifying Insight - One of the best class features for solo content. Useless in group content. Daily: Hammer of Fate - Does the same damage as flame strike, but is slower to cast, and is single target. Other benefits are useless outside of pvp. Absolutely useless power. Class Feature: Prophetic Action - Useful for one shot wonder bosses that do not have abilities that will knock it down (Scorpions and Blue Dragon from Dragon Flight). Completely useless everywhere else.
Feat: Second Sight - A heal when an already slow power ends 20 seconds later. Except that if you are using prophecy of doom correctly, it never ends. Literally useless feat. Feat: Benefit of Foresight - Still not a great damage resistance amount. If it doesn't make someone survive an attack, what is the point? Feat: Power of the Sun - Same as Benefit of Foresight: If it doesn't make someone survive an attack, what is the point?
Overall Divine Oracle is slightly better at solo content due to a 20% debuff. Oh wait... nope Anointed Champions have buffs that outshine even the personal debuff of Terrifying Insight by such a large margin that Divine Oracle is almost completely useless. Why aren't they useless? Not sure, I just know someone will argue the fact that a 20% debuff somehow causes you to do more damage than having a +230% power (with rank 12 bondings) buff.
Okay all teasing aside, Divine Oracle is much better at lower levels/item levels because low item levels can't get enough up-time on Anointed Army to contest with Terrifying Insight. This means that Divine Oracle's main use is level up a toon and soloing content before you have all of your gear. This is not cool.
I have to note that Brand of the Sun is my favorite At-will power, simply because of it's animation and mechanics. It is the only reason I cannot switch to Anointed Champion on my main cleric (yes I have more than one cleric).
And in the spirit of my other list, here are some examples of how I would personally start reworking the cleric paragons:
Anointed Champion: Encounter: Exaltation - You bless nearby allies (players in your party), temporarily granting 5% increased damage and damage resistance. Divinity: Heals all nearby allies (players in your party), and grants 10% increased movement speed that decays over 2 seconds Empowered: The damage and damage resistance buffs are increased by 10% per stack Class Feature: Holy Resolve - While your action points are full increase your damage by 10% and divinity gained by 100% At-Will: Blessing of Battle - Damage an enemy while granting 10% damage resistance to nearby allies Class Feature: Anointed Action - Your healing powers grant 10% increased movement speed for 2 seconds. The effect is doubled on yourself. Daily: Anointed Army - Creates a bond between you and all nearby allies (players in your party). All allies connected with this bond share the highest allied power, recovery, defense, and deflection value. When taking damage (post-mitigation), it is split evenly between all bonded allies. Effected Allies have 20% increased movement speed while moving towards bonded allies. This effect lasts 8 seconds. Class Feature: Anointed Holy Symbol - Using a Fully Empowered Encounter Power grants a large amount of temporary Hit Points to all nearby allies.
Feat: Battle Fervor - Blessing of Battle's buff now also increases affected targets movement speed by 1/2/3/4/5%. Grants you double this amount after casting Blessing of Battle. Feat: Prestigious Exaltation - Increases the duration of the Exaltation buff by 2/4/6/8/10%. Healing is increased by 2/4/6/8/10% on targets affected by Exaltation. Feat: Ancient Warding - Allies under the effect of Anointed Army now share 2/4/6/8/10% more of the highest allied power, recovery, defense, and deflect values.
Divine Oracle: Encounter: Prophecy of Doom - Target has lowered 10% lowered damage resistance for 8 seconds, and if they are still alive after this time, they take a large amount of damage and have their damage resistance lowered by 30% for 4 additional seconds. Applying Prophecy of Doom during the aftermath effect will end the effects of the aftermath Divinity: You deal instant damage to the target. If the target is already affected by Prophecy of Doom, they take double damage, and the duration of the prophecy is increased by 4 seconds, up to a maximum of 8 seconds. Empowered: Increases the original damage resistance debuff by 5% per stack, and the aftermath debuff by 10% per stack. Class Feature: Foresight - Enemies damaged by your encounter powers are slowed by 20%. CC Immune targets and players instead have their damage reduced by 10% At-Will: Brand of the Sun - You draw upon the power of the sun to burn your foe, dealing damage over time. Class Feature: Terrifying Insight - Whenever you damage a target your subsequent attacks against them deal 5% more damage. This bonus caps at 20% Daily: Hammer of Fate - You hammer your foe with prophetic words of power. This power does not use up action points, but cannot be cast again until a different daily has been cast. This power has no cast time, and can be used while moving. Requires 100% action points to cast. Class Feature: Prophetic Action - After using a daily power, you gain 100% of a divinity power bar.
Feat: Shared Insight - Allies receive half of the benefit of your Terrifying Insight Feat: Benefit of Foresight - Enemies affected by Foresight have a 10% chance to miss their attack. Feat: Power of the Sun - Enemies effected by Brand of the Sun have their damage resistance lowered by 5%. Hitting an enemy affected by Brand of the Sun resets its duration.
I really have no clue whether any of this is balanced, but would be easier to balance these numbers than it would be to balance Anointed Army in its current power sharing state, and addresses some of the problems that cause Divine Oracle to be useless.
Sorry for the ramblings of bored Game Designer, but I figured I should put in my 2 cents while you guys are at least on the subject of DCs.
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Kinda ironic. AC was orignally meant be be the defensive paragon, but ends up being the superior buffer due to how broken power sharing can be. DO is gated behind the dreaded debuff cap.
Should there now be a serious talk on diminishing returns on power?
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Should there now be a serious talk on diminishing returns on power?
Power has always been the garbage stat (stack as high as you want with very little penalty because its the lowest ROI stat). Something has to be in that category. The solution on power is simple, make bonding only transfer unbuffed power. This also narrows the stat gap between bonding and augment. It doesnt remove it but narrows it so that bonding is a nice elites option and budget players can still be comfortable in augments with cheaper runes.
I love the change to Divine Armor as well, but 45s CD for Hallowed Ground is a bit too much imo; I would suggest 30s.
Keep in mind that 45 seconds is only the base cooldown time. If you have a decent amount of cooldown reduction—as many clerics do—this cooldown will be significantly lower. In general, when we discussed these changes, we aimed for a cooldown that resulted in being able to cast Hallowed Ground about as often as you currently can on live whether you're just leveling up, or you're running a full recovery / AP gain build.
The big difference is that with AP gain no longer blocked after using Hallowed Ground, you'll potentially be able to build up your AP and weave in another daily before building it back up and dropping Hallowed Ground once it's off cooldown. The end result is a similar uptime to what's live while not blocking your AP gain.
Divine Armor is not going to be very useful. Compared to AA it's kinda laughable. Pretty much just gives the team one extra hit from T2 critters.
After these changes, Anointed Army will now only stop at most 20% of the shielded target's maximum HP in damage on a single hit. Providing 80% of the target's maximum HP in temporary hit points will stop 4x the amount AA can stop on a single hit. The intent for the redesigned Divine Armor is to provide an emergency shield that is just long enough to heal endangered allies back up, or provide a large shield against a single high damage AoE or targeted attack on the tank.
Temp HP breaks GWF Unstoppable. This is not a good change and will just result in channels banning the power from runs. Revert this or fix Unstoppable.
Couldn't they just make it a shield instead of temp HP?
As a cleric these changes seem to be really good, i mean who doesnt want 30% more power right.
But looking at this from the view of other clases it becomes a very different asspect.
But then you talk about trying to balance the clases.
From the view of a DPS class this still seems fair because even at 30% there not going to get close enough to challeng the scoreboard and its the job of the support clases to look after them in dungeons etc.
OP/GF since mod 10.5 when the OP recieved yet another nerf there survivabillity has rellied alot on the cleric supporting them to tank. Also the DPS on the pally and GF was cut dramatically. Since then i see scoreboards where the clerics are already matching the damage which is where the balance comes into play. If you now go and nerf the AA and give the clerics DPS without adjusting the OP and GF you may aswell be nerfing the tanks again.
IF gf didnt learn the fight against orcus doesnt mean the class need the annointed army. A Dc can cover a weak gf with other tools like astral shield and divine glow and help to reduce the damage with break the spirit and buff with hallowed ground the dr. WITH those tools if gf do not blocking the attacks is his own fault.
ONE note: before the nerf on paladin needed more skill to protect yourself as gf than as paly. now you need more skill as paladin than as gf.
The thing is: if the tank needs more than one of thouse other DC tools as support, he´ll get killed before enough of them are in place. Orcus doesn´t wait for us to set up, nor do the enemies in FBI or mSP(I suppose, haven´t visited the latter yet)
Regarding FBI: ime its already hard to find a tank who can get the job done there with the support of all tools currently available to me as a DC, including, but not limited to, the Anoited Army currently on live. Yet all I see in this thread are calls to nerf everything into complete oblivion...I mean: every part of the game should be beatable by a group formed by ppl who haven´t played together before, which means despite the possibility of not everyone turning out to be as good as hoped, and possible communication difficulites since you´re likely to run into ppl from all over the world.
Also: do you want all rank 12 enchantment in both defense and offense slots + the boons of a rank 20 guild + every party member running a companion applying an uncapped debuff to be the minimum requirement to experiance all of the game? I certainly do not.
Kinda ironic. AC was orignally meant be be the defensive paragon, but ends up being the superior buffer due to how broken power sharing can be. DO is gated behind the dreaded debuff cap.
Should there now be a serious talk on diminishing returns on power?
Why? So that we can slog through dungeons that they're never going to re-balance?
As a cleric these changes seem to be really good, i mean who doesnt want 30% more power right.
But looking at this from the view of other clases it becomes a very different asspect.
But then you talk about trying to balance the clases.
From the view of a DPS class this still seems fair because even at 30% there not going to get close enough to challeng the scoreboard and its the job of the support clases to look after them in dungeons etc.
OP/GF since mod 10.5 when the OP recieved yet another nerf there survivabillity has rellied alot on the cleric supporting them to tank. Also the DPS on the pally and GF was cut dramatically. Since then i see scoreboards where the clerics are already matching the damage which is where the balance comes into play. If you now go and nerf the AA and give the clerics DPS without adjusting the OP and GF you may aswell be nerfing the tanks again.
IF gf didnt learn the fight against orcus doesnt mean the class need the annointed army. A Dc can cover a weak gf with other tools like astral shield and divine glow and help to reduce the damage with break the spirit and buff with hallowed ground the dr. WITH those tools if gf do not blocking the attacks is his own fault.
ONE note: before the nerf on paladin needed more skill to protect yourself as gf than as paly. now you need more skill as paladin than as gf.
I agree with your first statement and completely disagree with the latter:
1. Indeed, not knowing how to fight orcus as a GF doesn't mean the class or even an OP needs AA to survive, AA just made people lazy so they expect to be carried.
2. No, completely disagree, no GF can match the survability of a properly built OP, it is far easier to play and survive as a paladin, simply spam TW, BO and a 3rd encounter of your choice and you'll be tankier than any GF could be in his wildest dreams. At least with the GF you live and die by the shield, if you get hit by a powerful enemmy without its protection you will either take massive damage or get one shotted. At least with GF you need to take a look at your positioning and stamina/guard, with the paladin you can spam TW and BO non stop and you'll be pretty much unkillable.
Back on topic and as my opinion on this topic so this is not addressing you, I'm surprised dc's will still be able to massively increase the dps of group members, that needs to go. Anointed army does need the same treatment into the fray got, that will put it down to reasonable levels and will reward players that try to get their toons to high level (as itf becomes more useful the more powerful the character is, opposite to the paladin's powersharing which in turn performs better than fray the weaker the team members are).
Glad to see the changes coming, both as a DO DC and as a GF. Having said that, AA still seems like it will be the go to for the power share. Power share in general has gotten a little out of hand, would be nice if power sharing had a cap (from all sources, not just AA). Would likely solve the problem of no one wanting a DO in a party at the same time, with a cap to overall power shared it won't be as unhelpful compared to AA, especially if there are other power sharers in party.
Or do away with power share entirely and replace it with better balanced buffs, recently legitimately tanked FBI (supposed to be the hardest dungeon in the game..) with little to no issues, as a GF, with 3.2k IL, greater bondings, and no guild boons. Only time we had an issue was when the healer d/c'd on the hill. AA really isn't needed with a decent tank and healer and DPS who don't stand in stupid hoping to burn the boss down before wiping.
Comments
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1225930/give-us-your-suggestion-for-dc-rework-unofficial
Please revamp whole heroic feat and powers for DC so that increasing il does net us improvement. Currently only with AA we have a capstone to work with (40k base power), else from that 4k il DC and 2k il DC doesnt have any difference. Some feats like 20% of power into defense or vice versa or into recovery or crit or movement speed or even arp is good for us. Please consider this ty.
In conclusion, we fellow DCs hope our new paragon feats have 3 main path, the buff/utility virtuous, the healing/protection failthful and the dps/debuff righteous. Please do not give us junk feat that only trigger below 25% hp, as a DC, we heal and lifesteal, we will never get our hp below 50%, ty. Please also consider improve Repurpose soul or make another t2 version into righteous path so that we can do dps and healing at the same time like what our paragon path wrote. Ty.
A more systematic approach could include the revision of the virtuous path by increasing the damage mitigation provided by "unbreakable devotion".
Currently the level of mitigation from unbreakable devotion is quite low and it's not used in PvE, but it could be an add-on top of the new AA.
In this scenario, I would review geas and warding flare too in way that only if you have a virtuous build then you can mitigate more combining feats and powers.
In this case a DC - both DO and AC - can decide to focus on the damage mitigation instead of (de)buffing/healing.
The cost of such choice is that the DC have to give up the main buff/debuff feats from the righteous path in order to combine the new AA with a further stack of damage mitigation while on the other hand the DC can support better OP and GF and instead of the DPS classes.
Groups made of more than 5 players may want to have two different kind of DCs instead of buffers only, creating more variety of choices in the game.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
the damage increase was needed.
afew other things you should look at:
Feats:
Powers:
you should consider the companion buff in general and not nerf DC powers one by one
Companion is level 40 max and should recive buffs propotional to his level.
L40 companion should be around 5% of total buff (compare to L70).
so total regain of Bonding will not be above 15%. (now its 300%)
anyway, let us still heal the companions and buff them.
Taylor DC/DO & AC Buff/Debuff - Guild Gutbusters Brigade - PVE
ONE note: before the nerf on paladin needed more skill to protect yourself as gf than as paly.
now you need more skill as paladin than as gf.
Cause all group content will have 2 DCs...
Depending the ILVL and if PVP/PVE players, in my opinion one path has to be better than this other one.
It doesnt mean that some adjustement are not needed, but create 2 powerfull and complementary DCs will kill at least a character class-
Avatar should be permanently or you should get a chance of Piercing Damage.
I'm an DO cleric 3.7k buf/debuff dps and I was never a haste cleric and I don't want to be an AA cleric.
The only thing I miss is:
Anointed Armor
we have Foresight but it lacks AC.
would be nice if AC could also be added to Foresight so it's easier to survive. At 3.7 k with Bonding 12 I have not big Problems - but before I reached 3.4k it was very hard because I get aggro alot and instead of helping the group I have to help myself.....
If AC could not be added would be cool if we get more deflect with every rank so we also can help the group while healing them. Or we can share 1 or 2 AC to the group?
Prophetic Action could be replaced - not sure if there is one cleric using this?
Because of DPS and healing (I crit heal) I get aggro alot and it's hard to survive if the tank is not good - So I have to survive myself instead of helping the group(now with bondings 12 doable.....).
(your updates are also very positive and usefull) but we need more.
for first:- add more survavity to Exaltation ( maybe give immunity back, no? )
- rework Prophetic Action (block only that damage what is 75% bigger then allies HP or can lead to their death. make lesser CD (about 45 sec)
nice to have:- +5/10/15% critical severity in heroic
- increase deflect chance in heroic
- remove CD for Avatar (if you really want to give us make damage as other classes)
- add CD for "Gift of Faith" (about 45 sec, or let it removes when you leave a fight (for PVP))
divine mechanic and divinity gain bonuses.scale of divinity is not filled when you already have 3 divine symbols.
so in way when you want to increase your divinity gain bonus this don't have an effect.
your divine 'overflow' just disappears because of this. Only with Brand of the Sun you can avoid this (or if you will use only 1 or 2 pluses, not all 3 in one procast). So I think if scale will fill when you already have 3 symbols active bonuses from Divine, Bountiful Fortune and Gift of the Gods will be more usefull (not in Oracle builds only).
fix- annointed action
- ancient warding (+increase TempHits added for this feat)
- prophecy of doom recharge (or make lesser CD)
need rework- Searing Light (Empowered) - its damage too low
- Second Sight - useless
- Living Fire - useless
thanks.I think it should be priority to fix the DC class feats to increase Cleric solo damage, rather than just give them a broad stroke of "+30% damage increase". If these changes go live, DCs will start stomping DPS charts, it may take a couple weeks, but they will. Healing spec DCs do need help, but you need to consider how strong this will make DPS spec DCs. A better solution would be to give healing spec clerics a buff to damage, not all clerics. There are many places where this can be done, since the feat trees are cluttered with useless garbage or stuff that doesn't even work:
Stats are given 2k item level through 4k item level
Healing Action: Not Bad
Greater Fortune: Tooltip needs reworked, since it shouldn't mention "Your Wisdom". Also increased healing numbers are mostly useless, but otherwise not a horrible feat.
Toughness: Great Feat
Holy Resolve: Great Feat
Domain Synergy: Weak Feat, Gives aprox 200-400 Recovery
Weapon Master: Great Feat
Initiate of the Faith: Weak Feat, Gives aprox 100-500 Crit
Repurpose Soul: Not Bad, Tooltip is wrong, it seems based off of weapon damage, not actual spell damage. If it were based off of spell damage it would be a great feat.
Battlewise: Terrabad Feat, reduced threat is not only useless, but bad. As a DC you are actually the best equipped (besides tank/off-tank) to withstand mobs aggroing you. Any cleric that takes this is hurting their team.
Cleanse: Good Feat, I hate to admit it, but this is better than I used to admit, I personally do not use it on my main, but most clerics should be using this.
Templar's Domain: Terrabad Feat, either you ignore resistance ignored, or you cap it. Nobody wants to randomly fluctuate between doing damage and doing nothing. This either needs to be a user's benefit debuff (like Terrifying Insight), or needs completely reworked.
Bountiful Fortune:
Great Feat
Only one real path exists through these feats, and nothing really stands out to help a low gear cleric get to level 70. Damage should be added to this section. The best solution would likely be adding decent flat damage to healing/dps powers similar to the Righteous feat Fire of the Gods.
Example of a decent heroic tree:
Healing Action: Gain 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5% of your action points when using a healing spell on an ally
Greater Fortune: Increase healing and damage dealt by 1/2/3%
Toughness: Increase your Maximum Hit Points by 3/6/9%
Holy Resolve: Gain 5/10/15% of your Maximum Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points when you drop below 30% Hit Points. Has a 5 minute cooldown.
Domain Synergy: After casting a healing power you gain a stack of Domain Synergy max of 5 stacks. Damaging an enemy with one of your powers expends all stacks of Domain Synergy to deal 40/80/120/160/200% of your weapon damage per stack.
Weapon Master: Increase your Critical Chance by 1/2/3%
Initiate of the Faith: Your healing spells heal 2/5/8/11/15% of your target's missing Hit Points. Has a 10 second cooldown.
Repurpose Soul: When a nearby enemy is killed, you heal all nearby allies for 1/2/3% of their maximum hit points. You gain 5/10/15% increased movement speed for 3 seconds after this effect. Allies receive half this bonus.
Battlewise: When you enter combat, you gain 10/20/30% increased movement speed that decays over 3 seconds. When this effect expires, you regain 40/80/120% of a single divine power meter. Has a 25 second cooldown.
Cleanse: When you Heal an ally you have a 10/20/30% chance to remove a Damage Over Time effect from an ally. Upon cleansing an ally, they take 50% less damage for 5 seconds. Cannot cleanse the same ally more than once within 20 seconds.
Templar's Domain: Your at-will powers deal piercing damage equal to 20/40/60/80/100% of your weapon damage. At maximum divine power, your damaging encounter powers deal 40/80/120/160/200% increased damage.
Bountiful Fortune:Gain 3/6/9/12/15% more divine power.
With something like this, at least clerics have a few options. Obviously I am just throwing numbers around, and most of these are probably unbalanced, but they could at least be adjusted in a meaningful way to make them viable, rather than having increases to useless stats, or by meaningless amounts. These types of changes could potentially also solve the healer spec DCs slow leveling, without causing high end DPS clerics to start out-damaging... well literally everyone.
Now as far as the Anointed Army vs. Hallowed Ground changes are concerned, I love it. I love the changes, but you are forgetting something. This isn't a contest between Anointed Army and Hallowed Ground. It is a contest between Anointed Army and Hammer of Fate. ALL clerics get Hallowed Ground, it doesn't even matter if it is balanced vs. Anointed Army or not. Anointed Army SHOULD be better than Hallowed Ground, or at least have some niche use that DO cannot fill. If it is going to outshine literally everything else a cleric can do, Hammer of Fate (or some other DO power) should also outshine literally everything else a cleric can do.
@dreadnaught#5263
Continued …
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Currently these are the two cleric paragons:
Anointed Champion:
Encounter: Exaltation - Extremely Hard to use, but a decent buff. Doesn't see much use, since it is basically impossible to use.
Class Feature: Anointed Action - Either the duration or the damage amount seems a little low unless it's is designed for perma daily tactics. As far as I can tell, it has issues proccing properly with some dailies.
At-Will: Blessing of Battle - Not great. (the feat is the only good part)
Class Feature: Anointed Armor - Decent deflection bonus for some pvp builds. Completely useless everywhere else.
Daily: Anointed Army - Most powerful damage buff in the game. Good mitigation (even after nerf). CC Immunity. Overloaded power. Does everything.
Class Feature: Anointed Holy Symbol - Haven't used it enough to get any idea on it's actual strength, but it seemed worthless when we are always slotting Divine Fortune and Holy Fervor for max AP gain
Feat: Battle Fervor - One of the best feats in the game. Grants 15% of your power to allies on the use of a specific at-will that you probably wouldn't use otherwise. Extremely powerful party buff. Not even optional.
Feat: Prestigious Exaltation - As stated previously, Exaltation is too hard to use, but with that said, this feat doesn't really add much to the power.
Feat: Ancient Warding - Adds a very minor, but existent buff to the most powerful buff in the game because it needed to be that 1% stronger. Not particularly good, but not bad either.
Overall the AC outshines everything the generic cleric has to offer with a single daily, and feat. A single AC DC can increase party DPS more than a generic DC using Hallowed Ground, not only that, but they can have a higher up-time too. Add in the fact that they have a feat that increases party power on top of that, they are nearly impossible to beat as far as buffs go. I would consider them unbeatable, but some might argue with that.
Divine Oracle:
Encounter: Prophecy of Doom - Most of this power doesn't work. That is not the issue though. Even if it all still worked, it is too slow to cast in any solo content, and then is useless in large groups due to the debuff limit.
Class Feature: Foresight - That amount of Damage Resistance is laughable in any PVE content.
At-Will: Brand of the Sun - Fun to use, decent damage over time. 10/10
Class Feature: Terrifying Insight - One of the best class features for solo content. Useless in group content.
Daily: Hammer of Fate - Does the same damage as flame strike, but is slower to cast, and is single target. Other benefits are useless outside of pvp. Absolutely useless power.
Class Feature: Prophetic Action - Useful for one shot wonder bosses that do not have abilities that will knock it down (Scorpions and Blue Dragon from Dragon Flight). Completely useless everywhere else.
Feat: Second Sight - A heal when an already slow power ends 20 seconds later. Except that if you are using prophecy of doom correctly, it never ends. Literally useless feat.
Feat: Benefit of Foresight - Still not a great damage resistance amount. If it doesn't make someone survive an attack, what is the point?
Feat: Power of the Sun - Same as Benefit of Foresight: If it doesn't make someone survive an attack, what is the point?
Overall Divine Oracle is slightly better at solo content due to a 20% debuff. Oh wait... nope Anointed Champions have buffs that outshine even the personal debuff of Terrifying Insight by such a large margin that Divine Oracle is almost completely useless. Why aren't they useless? Not sure, I just know someone will argue the fact that a 20% debuff somehow causes you to do more damage than having a +230% power (with rank 12 bondings) buff.
Okay all teasing aside, Divine Oracle is much better at lower levels/item levels because low item levels can't get enough up-time on Anointed Army to contest with Terrifying Insight. This means that Divine Oracle's main use is level up a toon and soloing content before you have all of your gear. This is not cool.
I have to note that Brand of the Sun is my favorite At-will power, simply because of it's animation and mechanics. It is the only reason I cannot switch to Anointed Champion on my main cleric (yes I have more than one cleric).
And in the spirit of my other list, here are some examples of how I would personally start reworking the cleric paragons:
Anointed Champion:
Encounter: Exaltation - You bless nearby allies (players in your party), temporarily granting 5% increased damage and damage resistance.
Divinity: Heals all nearby allies (players in your party), and grants 10% increased movement speed that decays over 2 seconds
Empowered: The damage and damage resistance buffs are increased by 10% per stack
Class Feature: Holy Resolve - While your action points are full increase your damage by 10% and divinity gained by 100%
At-Will: Blessing of Battle - Damage an enemy while granting 10% damage resistance to nearby allies
Class Feature: Anointed Action - Your healing powers grant 10% increased movement speed for 2 seconds. The effect is doubled on yourself.
Daily: Anointed Army - Creates a bond between you and all nearby allies (players in your party). All allies connected with this bond share the highest allied power, recovery, defense, and deflection value. When taking damage (post-mitigation), it is split evenly between all bonded allies. Effected Allies have 20% increased movement speed while moving towards bonded allies. This effect lasts 8 seconds.
Class Feature: Anointed Holy Symbol - Using a Fully Empowered Encounter Power grants a large amount of temporary Hit Points to all nearby allies.
Feat: Battle Fervor - Blessing of Battle's buff now also increases affected targets movement speed by 1/2/3/4/5%. Grants you double this amount after casting Blessing of Battle.
Feat: Prestigious Exaltation - Increases the duration of the Exaltation buff by 2/4/6/8/10%. Healing is increased by 2/4/6/8/10% on targets affected by Exaltation.
Feat: Ancient Warding - Allies under the effect of Anointed Army now share 2/4/6/8/10% more of the highest allied power, recovery, defense, and deflect values.
Divine Oracle:
Encounter: Prophecy of Doom - Target has lowered 10% lowered damage resistance for 8 seconds, and if they are still alive after this time, they take a large amount of damage and have their damage resistance lowered by 30% for 4 additional seconds. Applying Prophecy of Doom during the aftermath effect will end the effects of the aftermath
Divinity: You deal instant damage to the target. If the target is already affected by Prophecy of Doom, they take double damage, and the duration of the prophecy is increased by 4 seconds, up to a maximum of 8 seconds.
Empowered: Increases the original damage resistance debuff by 5% per stack, and the aftermath debuff by 10% per stack.
Class Feature: Foresight - Enemies damaged by your encounter powers are slowed by 20%. CC Immune targets and players instead have their damage reduced by 10%
At-Will: Brand of the Sun - You draw upon the power of the sun to burn your foe, dealing damage over time.
Class Feature: Terrifying Insight - Whenever you damage a target your subsequent attacks against them deal 5% more damage. This bonus caps at 20%
Daily: Hammer of Fate - You hammer your foe with prophetic words of power. This power does not use up action points, but cannot be cast again until a different daily has been cast. This power has no cast time, and can be used while moving. Requires 100% action points to cast.
Class Feature: Prophetic Action - After using a daily power, you gain 100% of a divinity power bar.
Feat: Shared Insight - Allies receive half of the benefit of your Terrifying Insight
Feat: Benefit of Foresight - Enemies affected by Foresight have a 10% chance to miss their attack.
Feat: Power of the Sun - Enemies effected by Brand of the Sun have their damage resistance lowered by 5%. Hitting an enemy affected by Brand of the Sun resets its duration.
I really have no clue whether any of this is balanced, but would be easier to balance these numbers than it would be to balance Anointed Army in its current power sharing state, and addresses some of the problems that cause Divine Oracle to be useless.
Sorry for the ramblings of bored Game Designer, but I figured I should put in my 2 cents while you guys are at least on the subject of DCs.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Should there now be a serious talk on diminishing returns on power?
Regarding FBI: ime its already hard to find a tank who can get the job done there with the support of all tools currently available to me as a DC, including, but not limited to, the Anoited Army currently on live. Yet all I see in this thread are calls to nerf everything into complete oblivion...I mean: every part of the game should be beatable by a group formed by ppl who haven´t played together before, which means despite the possibility of not everyone turning out to be as good as hoped, and possible communication difficulites since you´re likely to run into ppl from all over the world.
Also: do you want all rank 12 enchantment in both defense and offense slots + the boons of a rank 20 guild + every party member running a companion applying an uncapped debuff to be the minimum requirement to experiance all of the game? I certainly do not.
I agree with your first statement and completely disagree with the latter:
1. Indeed, not knowing how to fight orcus as a GF doesn't mean the class or even an OP needs AA to survive, AA just made people lazy so they expect to be carried.
2. No, completely disagree, no GF can match the survability of a properly built OP, it is far easier to play and survive as a paladin, simply spam TW, BO and a 3rd encounter of your choice and you'll be tankier than any GF could be in his wildest dreams. At least with the GF you live and die by the shield, if you get hit by a powerful enemmy without its protection you will either take massive damage or get one shotted. At least with GF you need to take a look at your positioning and stamina/guard, with the paladin you can spam TW and BO non stop and you'll be pretty much unkillable.
Back on topic and as my opinion on this topic so this is not addressing you, I'm surprised dc's will still be able to massively increase the dps of group members, that needs to go. Anointed army does need the same treatment into the fray got, that will put it down to reasonable levels and will reward players that try to get their toons to high level (as itf becomes more useful the more powerful the character is, opposite to the paladin's powersharing which in turn performs better than fray the weaker the team members are).
Or do away with power share entirely and replace it with better balanced buffs, recently legitimately tanked FBI (supposed to be the hardest dungeon in the game..) with little to no issues, as a GF, with 3.2k IL, greater bondings, and no guild boons. Only time we had an issue was when the healer d/c'd on the hill. AA really isn't needed with a decent tank and healer and DPS who don't stand in stupid hoping to burn the boss down before wiping.